A question for the non scots fans - Laidlaw

Would you continue to play Laidlaw at 9?
He is a 50 cap stalwart and captain and a good place kicker and makes very few mistakes but the criticism of him is he can be too slow to deliver the ball and this negates Scotlands preferred high tempo game. Sometimes he box kicks too much. However the range and accuracy of his passing is second to none
His competition is Henry Pyrgos with 17 caps ( mainly as sub) who is a very competent SH who breaks around the fringes better than Laidlaw and whose service is very quick and Sam Hidalgo-clyne who is a faster more elusive player but who has had a dip in form recently and made some blunders in his 9 caps.

So how is Laidlaw seen outside of Scotland? when do you drop your captain?

Until you play a 10 who can control a game consistently, I think you need the control and common sense that Laidlaw brings. I know Cotter wants a fast game, but that does not always mean you need a livewire SH. Also taking too long to pass the ball is often due to the forwards presenting it badly.

Then of course you have his goal kicking.

Good points. The slow delivery is often Laidlaws "fault" tho he arrives at the ruck then assesses the options then passes taking a second or two longer which allows the defense to form up and line up the next player.

We do not have a controlling 10 tho that is certain. Our one candidate Duncan "meatball" Weir seems to have lost all form and confidence. Russell is a great player but control is his weakness. Jackson I don't rate and he was a bit Meh against Japan. Horne could be the man but no coach seems to be sure where to play him

TJ wrote:Good points.  The slow delivery is often Laidlaws "fault" tho he arrives at the ruck then assesses the options then passes taking a second or two longer which allows the defense to form up and line up the next player.

We do not have a controlling 10 tho that is certain.  Our one candidate Duncan "meatball" Weir seems to have lost all form and confidence.  Russell is a great player but control is his weakness.  Jackson I don't rate and he was a bit Meh against Japan.  Horne could be the man but no coach seems to be sure where to play him

The question is whether he takes that time as he knows he can't just hit the ten with a pass. If 10 is controlling then 9 can just get to the ruck at pass to the 10, or he will get a call from the ten saying "box kick" or "play the fringes" etc. If he is having to make the tactical decisions then he obviously is going to take longer to act.

I guess the thing to do is to ask Gloucester fans. They have Hook at 10 who is pretty decent at game management. Is Laidlaw's delivery considered slow by them?

TJ wrote:
So how is Laidlaw seen outside of Scotland?  when do you drop your captain?

Good place kicker but as you've suggested his service is too slow - Pyrgos offers more in this regard.

I wouldn't be rushing to select him for the Lions or anything, but I think he's doing a very good job for Scotland and that shouldn't be underestimated.

It might be good to switch him to the bench for a series or a couple of games to see how it goes and see whether you can get any more value out of someone else, but I wouldn't completely discard him.

Pyrgos and Hidalgo-Clyne have both had opportunities. SHC rather blew his. Pyrgos looked very good indeed but then got injured and is only just back from Injury. Trouble is its very hard to drop your Captain and place kicker when is alternatives do neither and our Tens are not great place kickers either

Interesting to see others thoughts on this.

Well, it's a very different position but England have started to get strong, consistent performances from Haskell, so there's potential for growth even from an old lag like Laidlaw. If that quarter final had gone your way, it might have been the spark to take the team to the next level.

Scotland take on Australia in the first Autumn International. That's a redemption chance on a par with England's recent matches.

After that, it's Argentina and Georgia. The last match at least ought to be a perfect chance to see how a different player might go.

Laidlaw got his Mojo back after moving teams and heading down south. He is playing as well as he ever has IMO. I hope they start Pyrgos in the next test with Laidlaw on the bench - but then who takes the goal kicks? Hogg? Jackson? ( actually I want him dropped)

Play Laidlaw at 10.

From what I have seen he is a tough smart player. I think teams can certainly win with him.

Can you play someone just for their kicking? Especially if it's potentially holding the team back?

Bench him, see how he responds, if he's a pro he'll come out firing. See how the quicker players do starting a Test as from an England perspective the bench 9 always seems to 'look' better and quicker then the starter.

And use this chance to find another kicker. Jackson had some great kicking displays and terrible ones, perhaps he can get consistent.

Mr 100% Patterson was pretty much played because of his kicking. IMO.
Halfpenny, while not necessarily being the best 15 or wing got the nod in a number of tests because of his consistency at kicking.
Wilko in the latter England years.........
All of Andy Goode's caps.......

TJ wrote: SHC rather blew his.  

That is incredibly harsh IMO – he’s just a young man at the start of his career. He had an outstanding first season with Edinburgh and rightly became Scotland’s 2nd choice 9, but with Laidlaw starting his chances have been incredibly limited with the odd 5 minutes at the end of a game if he was lucky. From memory he got a start in the world cup warm ups and didn’t play overly well (without doing anything overly badly) but to say he has blown his chance is a gross overreaction!

He had 2nd season syndrome this year but I think a big part of that was the world cup – he spent all summer holding tackle bags and sitting on the bench and had completely lost his rhythm by the time he got back to Edinburgh. He perhaps started to believe his own hype too and long-term I think this will have done him good – I’m expecting a big season from him this season.

I’m sure it’s not what you meant but he certainly shouldn’t be thrown on the international scrap heap – he’s a very talented player and I’m sure he’s still got a bright future ahead of him.

propdavid_london wrote:Mr 100% Patterson was pretty much played because of his kicking.  IMO.
Halfpenny, while not necessarily being the best 15 or wing got the nod in a number of tests because of his consistency at kicking.  
Wilko in the latter England years.........
All of Andy Goode's caps.......

Nah, Andy Food played because the 4 10s ahead of him were injured.

OK - there wasn't anyone else that could be picked, it was Andy Goode or Ryan Lamb at the time of his caps!

propdavid_london wrote:OK - there wasn't anyone else that could be picked, it was Andy Goode or Ryan Lamb at the time of his caps!

A fatty and a fatty lover Ryan Lamb's ideal woman - Andy Food in a wig.

Well that's a disturbing image!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

TJ wrote: SHC rather blew his.  

That is incredibly harsh IMO – he’s just a young man at the start of his career.  He had an outstanding first season with Edinburgh and rightly became Scotland’s 2nd choice 9, but with Laidlaw starting his chances have been incredibly limited with the odd 5 minutes at the end of a game if he was lucky. From memory he got a start in the world cup warm ups and didn’t play overly well (without doing anything overly badly) but to say he has blown his chance is a gross overreaction!

He had 2nd season syndrome this year but I think a big part of that was the world cup – he spent all summer holding tackle bags and sitting on the bench and had completely lost his rhythm by  the time he got back to Edinburgh. He perhaps started to believe his own hype too and long-term I think this will have done him good – I’m expecting a big  season from him this season.

I’m sure it’s not what you meant but he certainly shouldn’t be thrown on the international scrap heap – he’s a very talented player and I’m sure he’s still got a bright future ahead of him.

Oh I quite agree that he has a good future - but I wouldn't pick him for scotland until he has had a good run of good games. He did make an utter horlicks of one WC warmup - so much so he was subbed off early. I am sure he will be back but he ain't ready now IMO. He could be in contention by the next 6N for sure.

I was just trying to be concise really.

Well Pyrgos get the starters berth for the second test with Laidlaw on the bench

So how did Pyrgos stack up compared to Laidlaw?

I have never really liked Laidlaw as a nine. I was at Murrayfield for the England game and he was woefully slow. He seems to wait for his backs to be perfectly set up to attack by which time, of course, the defence are also in perfect alignment. He does not seem to realise that the chaos of broken play is to the advantage of the attacking side.

LondonTiger wrote:So how did Pyrgos stack up compared to Laidlaw?

Laidlaw came on and basically won us the game with his control and kicking!

Not for the first time, he won the game for us. If subbing him was a plan to shake him up a bit, then it worked.

There is more to GL than the sum of his parts, lots of SH do individual bits better than him, but few can read a game as well and he really does know how to close one out. An awful lot of our really close wins in recent times, Australia, Samoa, France have all been orchestrated by him.

Bearing in mind he is unlikely to be around for the next WC, it is going to be a real challenge for VC to ease another SH into the role. No-one currently putting their hand up!

LondonTiger wrote:So how did Pyrgos stack up compared to Laidlaw?

Played very similarly quite honestly but wee Greig seemed to steady the ship when he came on.