Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[beninho]

First topic message reminder :

Having concerns about EU immigration does not make you a far right nutter or xenophobe. Mclaren, what is your knowledge on EU immigration, what dealings do you have with it? Can you see why people may have concerns about it?

Unless your concerns about how we can offer a more humane immigration system then you are xenophobe.  If you are worried about the geographical location of where someone popped out of a uterus then you are not thinking rationally.

And no, I cannot see why anyone would have any issue with the current levels of immigration to/from the UK.  Unless as I said above you are worried about how some people coming here are treated.

Do you not agree that an expanding population due to EU immigration, would lead to an extra burden on the NHS, housing, benefit and other public services aswell as the rise in rents?

Do you think that EU immigration, where people get fake payslips in order to claim benefits, working tax credits child tax credits and housing assistance? Or people that work minimal hours and tdo not pay any tax or nino who then can claim housing and benefit assistance? Or people that illegally overstay in the country, in order to achieve a loophole and gain housing or benefit assistance.

All of these are ongoing issues, though you did not answer my question in the first place.

[JAS]

Ha ha ha, Mac, you are unbelievable.

Did you not hear the excuses from Corbyn?

"There were bags on the seats"

Well effing ask the person to move them, secondly, you could ask someone nicely to move seat to one of the many other spares so he and his wife could sit together if he absolutely couldn't stand separation, one thing he didn't have to do was sit on the ground like a petulant child.

He was also asked if he wanted seats in First Class (he gets expenses, so why not?)

This is a wretched man who is always getting in the papers for the wrong reasons.

Do you not think Virgin could simply look at their computers to see how many seats were not reserved?

Now we're hearing from the Corbyn camp that the seats were occupied by small people or children so couldn't be seen on CCtV, what a to$$er. He's a disgrace of a man and a dreadful politician, he's been caught out, and him and his spin doctor have dropped yet another clanger here.

Actually, I think I'm closer to Mac's view on this one, I can't ever remember any politician of any flavour being pilloried as much as Corbyn. There are things he clearly lacks as a leader (like a spin doctor who actually knows what they're doing) but I think he's genuine (rare in todays politics). The point he was making re overcrowded trains is correct but rather than debate that, the right wing media have chosen to deflect away from the point to dispute the interview environment. "La la la, we don't have overcrowded expensive trains and anybody who says we do is a liar liar pants on fire" You have to wonder with Corbyn why every minuscule point of non conformance with established norms is blown out of all proportion. My take on that is that the political establishment are Poopie scared of him, from the Tories, the the right wing press and media through to the spineless PLP. There is most definitely a well orchestrated campaign against him. The growth in Labour Party membership under him has been nothing short of phenomenal and that scares the establishment i.e. what if it keeps on growing? I think the campaign of ridicule against him is actually fuelling that growth. Oddly enough it's working as far as destroying Labour's electoral chances. They are in a mess and you have to wonder where they would be in the polls if the spineless mass of the PLP stood behind him rather than help the right wing press undermine him.

[I'm never wrong]

The point he was making re overcrowded trains is correct but rather than debate that, the right wing media have chosen to deflect away from the point to dispute the interview environment.

Of course he was, and he is indeed correct. There are loads of overcrowded trains. But if a politician wants to "spin" things, then as you said he needs someone who knows what they are doing, and get it right. He was pilloried not so much for what he was saying but by the way he portrayed it. If he wanted to prove the point he should have got one of THESE TRAINS

[pedro]

Now we're hearing from the Corbyn camp that the seats were occupied by small people or children so couldn't be seen on CCtV, what a to$$er.

Thought he was a man of the little people?

[pedro]

The Corbyn camp just posted this picture of a local Birmingham train, blaming capitalism.

[beninho]

The train service is pretty poor, but he didn't need to go to the lengths that he did to try and show it, just show the statistics, look at southern rail, look at all the delayed or cancelled trains, and speak with the commuters, so many say the services are terrible often overcrowded and the costs are at times ridiculous. He has some good points, and maybe re-nationalising the rail industry would be a good thing, I just don't think its a big enough scheme to win the floating voters in the middle.

Corbyn has good views on many things, he didn't vote for the Iraq war or air strikes, he just is old politics, and unfortunately that does not win elections anymore, its all about personality and keeping the right people happy. Labour are on for a trouncing if he stays as leader, even with a Trory party split of europe, which is likely to get worse.

[JAS]

Indeed Beninho although I think they're in for a trouncing either way. The coup plotters, if they do manage to oust him, will inspire no trust whatsoever. They don't seem to have learnt anything from their last 2 defeats.

[beninho]

He will win this election, but the Party is split between old and new. Though Corbyn needs to remember when he tried to oust Kinnock in the 80's. Though i think the party went for the wrong crazy lefty, Mcdonnell is a lot more charismatic a person, though still not prime minister material.

[MontysMerkin]

I really don't get why he has to be in power to change things. That's the whole point of parliament, people seem to forget that there has to be consensus across parliament for them to enact anything. It is absolutely pointless having 2 major parties who have nothing to choose between them, all that happens that is nothing holding them back. As the absolutely dire tories have shown recently, you need more than just be in power to get things done. Their absolutely hilarious about faces on some huge issues have hardly been picked up by the media and so the public are not aware what an effing shambles the whole lot are. So all this unelectable crap is unimportant and a distraction from the fact that if you have a centre right labour party all you end up with is a far right tory party - the worst of all worlds.

[navyblueshorts]

Corbyn and his team are morons. They may have some thoughts that resonate with millions but they're making about as big a hash as it's possible to make. It's pointless complaining about how the media are portraying things; it is how it is - stop giving them so many free hits you cretins. No wonder no-one hears anything about the Tories and the stuff they're doing...

As for the Virgin débacle, S_R is right. Corbyn and his team are to$$ers. They were caught out making up stories and they can't even admit they made a mistake trying to engineer a situation. Pathetic in the extreme.

[kwinigolfer]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/37194144/its-ok-to-carry-a-gun-but-not-sex-toys-at-us-university


Not often you see something to smile about in the stupidity of the US's gun laws, but this raised a titter . . . . .

[navyblueshorts]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/37194144/its-ok-to-carry-a-gun-but-not-sex-toys-at-us-university


Not often you see something to smile about in the stupidity of the US's gun laws, but this raised a titter . . . . .

Yep, definitely worthy of a good grin that one .

[McLaren]

Look at him, pretending he has had a bike accident.



I can't see anything wrong with him.

[McLaren]

Some Scottish kids grilling Ian Botham

Some Scottish kids grilling Ian Botham:

Can you imagine the PR types letting this happen today?

[super_realist]

What's your point Mac?

[JAS]

So...Busby's Nameplate & plaque removed from the Old Trafford Directors box and the family told they no longer have free seats.

Pandering to commercial dynamics vs Respect for history and tradition

Discuss!!

[kwinigolfer]

Disgraceful.

[pedro]

As I understand there'll be a new plaque made.

With regards to the family (gradchildren) they have been given free seats elsewhere on the stadium. Think it's ok, at some point of time the party has to stop. Next up is the House of Lords seats and the lifetime Masters free ticket to Sandy Lyle.

[McLaren]

I wonder if Jose's grandchildren will get free seats?

[kwinigolfer]

If Jose does half as much for Man United as Sir Matt did, they bl00dy well should. But he won't.

[JAS]

As I understand there'll be a new plaque made.

With regards to the family (gradchildren) they have been given free seats elsewhere on the stadium. Think it's ok, at some point of time the party has to stop. Next up is the House of Lords seats and the lifetime Masters free ticket to Sandy Lyle.

Hey go easy on Sandy Lyle's Masters tickets, I know his nephew and it's my best hope...however remote :-p

[MontysMerkin]

As links between various degenerative brain disorders and pollution become clearer, what responsibilities does the polluter hold for the cost of care for the sufferers of these disorders? As it is increasingly likely that a lot of time, effort and cash is being used to suppress these links (akin to the tobacco industry from the 60's onwards) would these efforts not be better employed finding alternatives to the polluters/pollutants? Who picks up the bill - taxpayers or industry?

[McLaren]

Monty

Are you talking about chemtrails?

[super_realist]

Tinfoil hat alert.

[McLaren]

Super

Be careful, the tin from the hat might damage your brain.

[super_realist]

Sounds like Alex Jones stuff Mac.

[super_realist]

What do you think of these planks disrupting London City Airport Mac, I presume you approve?
Sounds like the reason they picked London City is about as tenuous a link as you could possibly find. Oafs.

[MontysMerkin]

Tinfoil hat alert.

A tin hat may help, but I would suggest your nasal/brain membrane is thinner than most (genetic?), which may explain a lot.
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep24873
http://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-alzheimers-disease/jad140855
http://nature.com/articles/doi:10.1038/nature15371

I do wonder how you manage to function in such an unaware state? Does your mum still make your packed lunch and help with your shoe laces? (Although I suppose with the invention of velcro this problem may have been overcome?)

[super_realist]

I didn't say there might not be a link Monty, but they way that you approached it was one of a conspiracy theorist.

It does take more than a few hastily googled references to convince me (or anyone) especially given that the first one is concerned more with Iron, Copper and Zinc. Metals which have been used for hundreds of years if not thousands. Not metals you particularly associate with being pollutants either.

Throughout history, we've had many diseases caused or exacerbated by the environment in which we live. Given that in virtually all cases you cannot prove the source of the pollutant and who is responsible, i'm not sure who you could prosecute.

[McLaren]

Sorry monty but your first post didn't exactly set the scene well. I now see it is a story doing the rounds today.

Interesting set of articles you posted, if I have time I will read more the abstracts. If this results are true then we can coclude super was raised in a very polluted area.


Super

Why not block an airport where many influential people fly in and out of? The whole point of protest is to get attentions so it makes sense to target an airport.

[MontysMerkin]

Not sure how you deduce that it was a conspiracy theory? I suppose your natural scepticism kicked in.
Lead particles have been proven to cause mental retardation (especially in high oil usage geographies such as Aberdeen), hence the use of 'unleaded' fuel. Car manufacturers have been shown to hide the polluting effects of their product. As more evidence emerges that there is a good chance that their products have caused and continue to cause a huge burden on society and that they have actively used measures to hide this, does it not seem reasonable to expect them to pick up the tab for the damage caused? And should they be doing everything in their power to mitigate these effects? It is well known that the oil industry has been fighting renewable energy efforts for some time (again mirroring the tobacco industry).

The quantities of those metals used in industry have grown exponentially in the last few decades and their effects are only just being felt. The point is who picks up the tab for all the crazy old Frak sitting about in their own urine, due to the polluting nature of these industries? I'm sure that most on here will have relatives or will have known someone who has been badly affected by the issue and will be aware of the devastation caused by seeing a loved one turn into a gibbering idiot.

[super_realist]

I'm not saying IT was a conspiracy theory, I'm saying you approached it like a tin foil hat wearer.

Yes, lead particles have been proven to cause lots of things, even a reported decrease in crime once lead was removed from petrol, but not sure how citing articles about concentration of Iron, Copper and Zinc could be attributed to any particular industry.

It could also be true that many processes we have cause future health risks, but speculating and apportioning blame to something for which we can't even be certain yet seems a bit strange.

Of course the oil industry is going to fight the renewables, why wouldn't it? That's why they are developing more environmental and efficient fuels, it's why car companies are designing engines to run better. Not sure how you make a comparison to the tobacco industry as the oil industry are hardly covering anything up like the Cigarette companies did.

What kinds of metal use have grown exponentially? The harmful types of heavy metal have actually gone down. We no longer use metals like lead, cadmium or mercury in anything like the levels we did before.

Metals are not the issue, heavy metals are, and they aren't used anything like as much as they used to be. Most manufacturing uses magnesium and aluminium. Can't really think of anything in which the use of heavy metals is used routinely these days in Britain.

I'm sure most people will indeed have a relative or know someone affected by something like Alzhiemers. Unfortunately, you cannot tell whether it is due to poisoning or perhaps a sedentary lifestyle, which has also been linked to Alzheimers. There are many causes of diseases. Having Alzeheimers doesn't necessarily mean you've been exposed to more heavy metals.

Aberdeen isn't a "high usage" oil "geography" as you say. It's no different from any other city. It's simply that many people are employed in the industry. Doesn't mean they consume any more than anyone else. In fact I would hazard a guess I probably consume less than you do.

Granitic degradation is known to cause cancer, and many of the houses, including mine are built from Granite, do you think the quarries and builders should be fined for increasing the risk of cancer among the Aberdeen population?
We need to stop retrospective blame as it only makes lawyers rich and put measurements in place to find solutions to any problems caused.

[MontysMerkin]

The point is, if these industries have known about the effects and have deliberately made moves to hide the fact (automotive industries), should they bear more responsibility? Use of heavy metals has actually gone up in recent times due to their high demand in technological and industrial applications (Bradl H, editor. Heavy Metals in the Environment: Origin, Interaction and Remediation Volume 6. London: Academic Press; 2002 or Pacyna JM. Monitoring and assessment of metal contaminants in the air. In: Chang LW, Magos L, Suzuli T, editors. Toxicology of Metals.)

The measures taken should be that the industry picks up the tab for the damage caused?
Granitic degradation has been proven beyond all doubt to cause the most horrific mental and physical retardation seen on the planet. I have been to Aberdeen and witnessed this, although Monifieth runs it a very close second.

[super_realist]

That's the thing Monty, how do you prove whether they know about it or not.
Simply being in an industry doesn't mean you know 100% everything about it.
Ok, if you are right about the use of heavy metals increasing (although is 2002 really recent?), I bet it's also gone in line with safer production methods limiting the proliferation of heavy metals in the environment.

What are you on about mental and physical retardation from granite? Is that supposed to be a joke? Aberdeen is full of ugly people, no question, none of it down to granite, pretty rich coming from someone from North Lincs. Hardly the last word in gene pool diversity is it?

[navyblueshorts]

The issue here is 'covering up'. If automotive industries (or whomever) knew there was definitive links to ill health, hiding that data is pretty Poopie and much like the tobacco industry did re. cancer.
That said, people hear about the harm of, say, fine particulate diesel emissions, but that doesn't stop them buying diesel-engined cars if they're arguably cheaper. People knew smoking caused cancer, but they still smoked....and then blamed the tobacco industry for themselves being really, really stupid. Lawyers are the only winners in these scenarios.

[super_realist]

People are blaming others for making them fat now too, which is ridiculous. Like you say Navy, Lawyers win and no one else does.

[MontysMerkin]

That's the thing Monty, how do you prove whether they know about it or not.
Simply being in an industry doesn't mean you know 100% everything about it.
Ok, if you are right about the use of heavy metals increasing (although is 2002 really recent?), I bet it's also gone in line with safer production methods limiting the proliferation of heavy metals in the environment.

What are you on about mental and physical retardation from granite? Is that supposed to be a joke? Aberdeen is full of ugly people, no question, none of it down to granite, pretty rich coming from someone from North Lincs. Hardly the last word in gene pool diversity is it?

The gene pool here is shallow but wide...

[MustPuttBetter]

It AMAZES me that people still now choose to smoke. Absolutely mind boggling

[super_realist]

It's always the ones who can least afford to smoke who do too. Not sure how they manage it, but at £8 a packet or so, it's not difficult to see how they might be better off by having a bit of willpower.

[incontinentia]

http://www.joe.ie/sport/watch-this-impression-of-padraig-harrington-is-so-good-it-was-shared-on-the-ryder-cup-whatsapp-group/559216?utm_source=Viber&utm_medium=Chat&utm_campaign=Private

Don't know how to embed, funny impersonation of Paddy Harrington

[pedro]

http://www.joe.ie/sport/watch-this-impression-of-padraig-harrington-is-so-good-it-was-shared-on-the-ryder-cup-whatsapp-group/559216?utm_source=Viber&utm_medium=Chat&utm_campaign=Private

Don't know how to embed, funny impersonation of Paddy Harrington

He must be from North Lincs..

[pedro]

That said, people hear about the harm of, say, fine particulate diesel emissions, but that doesn't stop them buying diesel-engined cars if they're arguably cheaper. People knew smoking caused cancer, but they still smoked....and then blamed the tobacco industry for themselves being really, really stupid. Lawyers are the only winners in these scenarios.

Exactly navy. It seems like Monty feels he's more enlightened than the rest of the population. That everybody else are just poor stupid buggers who do not think for themselves and do not take responsibility for their own lives. Are you some sort of communist? And would you 'pick up the tab' for the damage communism is causing?

[McLaren]

Pedro

How did you get that?

[MontysMerkin]

That said, people hear about the harm of, say, fine particulate diesel emissions, but that doesn't stop them buying diesel-engined cars if they're arguably cheaper. People knew smoking caused cancer, but they still smoked....and then blamed the tobacco industry for themselves being really, really stupid. Lawyers are the only winners in these scenarios.

Exactly navy. It seems like Monty feels he's more enlightened than the rest of the population. That everybody else are just poor stupid buggers who do not think for themselves and do not take responsibility for their own lives. Are you some sort of communist? And would you 'pick up the tab' for the damage communism is causing?

Sorry you feel that way.

[McLaren]

Monty if you are into AD here is another recent nature paper. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v537/n7618/full/nature19323.html

[MontysMerkin]

Thanks mac, it's a subject that I have been following closely for some time. I work with a local neurology research department and have been helping them find and write research on the effects on local populations. It was good to see the stories break in the national press at last, as it hopefully will bring some pressure to bear by the public on some of the more polluting industries. It will also I hope give people some background on why the NHS is overflowing with the addled elderly, who can't be sent home, and inevitably become 'bed blockers'.

[navyblueshorts]

Sporadic AD is positively correlated with age. It's not down to aluminium saucepans or aluminium in water supplies or anything else. The NHS is overflowing with addled elderly because there are simply more elderly, there's less close-knit family units within the same area as those elderly who can look after them, private care homes are extortionate etc.
There may be some cases to do with manmade environmental toxins, but it'll be a very small minority.

That said, there's no reason why industry shouldn't be trying to minimise pollutant release as a matter of course.

[McLaren]

Navy hopefully Monty will chip in as I only read the abstract but isn't the point of the article that for those of the same age there is an increased risk of AD if exposure to Fe etc is higher?

[MontysMerkin]

There is no money in controlling pollutant release so unless regulated unfortunately they have no incentive, as I'm sure SR would attest.

The NHS is overflowing with the addled elderly because of the huge cuts in the social and welfare budgets (which doesn't seem to cause as much ire to the public as cuts to the NHS). Hospitals have become a waiting room for these unfortunates who cannot be taken home or afford private care.  

More recent epidemiological studies are showing that many degenerative neurological conditions are happening to people earlier irrespective of more traditional risk factors such as weight, exercise, social class, etc. Indeed one of the more interesting studies published recently (and I think there's a TED talk on it somewhere) is that sleep plays an important part in clearing the plaque that builds up on the synapses in the brain causing a wide range of degenerative conditions. Apparently when we sleep, our brains swell which allows a particular protein to 'clear out' the plaque build up. Certainly could explain Mrs Thatchers quick (or not so quick depending on your political bent) into raving loonydome. So if you ever need an excuse for an extra hour or two in bed, you can always say that you're protecting your synapses for the future!

[navyblueshorts]

Navy hopefully Monty will chip in as I only read the abstract but isn't the point of the article that for those of the same age there is an increased risk of AD if exposure to Fe etc is higher?

I'd be more interested in whether there's a significantly increased likelihood, accounting for confounders etc, in people who worked in industry where exposure was significant. There are some who think that iron is a factor, maybe via reactive oxygen species. One of my former colleagues was one if I remember right. There's certainly literature on the role of iron and ROS production in AD. I don't think it's a prevailing opinion though. Basically, we don't know anywhere near enough about the biochemistry and cell biology of AD - we don't even know the normal function of the APP protein (the one that amyloid is generated from in AD) but we've know it's a player for decades and decades.

Re. sleep. Hey, the elderly sleep less. Who'd have thought it? Less sleep and increased likelihood of dementia. Must be the cause...

[McLaren]

Navy, I know that ROS are now thought of as second messengers as well as by products of respiration. Maybe aging neurons loose control of these pathways and you end up with beta-amyloid plaques? Certainly an interesting area.

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