Euro 2016 Discussion

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Thats an awful pass from Kane

Roy Hodgson was the highest paid national coach at the tournament with the highest paid support staff.  

One wonders what he and his team were doing in preparing the team for Iceland.  The players seemed like they didn't really know what to do with the defensive set up of Iceland, nor the way Iceland broke quickly to turn defence into attack, nor their set pieces including long throws.  

Roy Hodgson was being paid about £4 million a year for a full time job.  What exactly did he do?  Why couldn't he have developed a range of systems and include players that were comfortable in those systems.  Why couldn't he have picked in form players that could fit the system rather than include half fit players and put them in unfamiliar positions.  

He had to accept he needed to go down into the Championship Division to select players if Premiership players didn't fit the system or were just not fit or tested enough.  The team is more important than "big name" individual players.

Never mind that sh!t Duty, did you figure out if you fancy Raheem or not? Also, I can only wonder just how bloody abject he'd have been if Guardiola hadn't rung to give him that confidence boosting chat before the game.

Raheem, if you're reading this, the abuse you rec'd on social media is largely justified and although the language used to express people's displeasure may have veered into the 'industrial' or just downright f*cking rude at times don't let the leave the conversation thinking they were happy...they weren't!

Senior players being Wayne and...?

Southgate is the man for the job ideally fits the FA profile, squeaky clean(doesn't even fart either apparently)would call the FA bosses sir, took my team Boro down to the championship in 1st league managerial position, hasn't had a club job since and has had a little bit of limited success with U21's, and would frighten the England players to death if they weren't doing the business, like getting mauled by a lamb, he's got all the qualifications the FA would require, step up Gareth another yes man.

dyrewolfe wrote:I think Alan Shearer had it spot on.

People bang on about the Premier League being the richest and most exciting league in the world, but it seems the English players are largely carried by their foreign team mates...and how many English managers are there? Bruce, Pulis, Howe, Pardew...have I missed anyone? We are simply not as good as we like to think we are. Either that, or we've had a succession of managers who have grossly misused (or neglected entirely) the talent at their disposal.

He also hit the nail on the head when he said it looked like Hodgson was making it up as he went along. We never seemed to have a clear game plan against any of the teams we played and relied instead on the skill of individual players to make something happen. God knows they certainly seemed to lack guidance, leadership and inspiration.

I hope the the FA take their time and find someone with both tactical nous and good man management skills. Until we start picking players on form instead of reputation and stop trying to force square pegs into round holes, we will never get anywhere.

It is said that football is a simple game when you get right down to it. Yet since Terry Venables left, we've endeavoured to make it look like rocket science.

The fact we were beaten by a country that doesn't even have its own national league, some of whose players are part-timers, just shows the FA and our national footballing structure in general, has become blinded by the cult of celebrity.

The biggest names are picked by default, regardless of whether they are playing well...or at all for their clubs and are frequently asked to play out of position. Formations and tactics are changed on a game-by-game basis, on the manager's whim, regardless of whether they will be effective against the opposition.

This is basically the same point I was making yesterday - it's boils down to lack of quality players. I can't think of a single world class English player over the last decade - or at least I'm struggling.

They may look good in the premier league playing a frantic, furious style of football that suits them, and surrounded by talented foreigners, but on the international stage where things slow down, it's technical and tactical and you have to think - they're bloody clueless. Has been the case all of my life except for a couple of tourneys.

No manager can fix that. We've still got the 'hoof it up the top' mentality that I remember from my school days. That needs to change at the grass roots level - kids need to learn to pass and think, move and master the basics. As long as we're technically inept (and Iceland proved how inept we are, they looked technically better) we could have Mourhino, Guardiola or anyone else and it'd make bugger all difference.

Quite frankly amazed, but not really surprised, having barely followed English football for the last few years, to see how rubbish we still are.



emancipator

Hodgson has the appearance of a partially demented, confused, lost pensioner who somehow wondered out of the care home and onto the pitch.

Pitiful.

To be fair to him, I have no idea why he's at this PC after resigning yesterday to the media either.

Roy keeps saying, 'I'm not sure what I'm doing here'.

I've been wondering that for the last four years

Anyway I'm more interested in another managers first PC than Hodgsons last

LiamB wrote:Roy keeps saying, 'I'm not sure what I'm doing here'.

I've been wondering that for the last four years

So true. Not fit for purpose from day 1.

And now he has dementia.

I reckon he just forgets his team sheet and picks whoever's closest before kick off.

DAVE667 wrote:Never mind that sh!t Duty, did you figure out if you fancy Raheem or not?

Alas, I do not. I'm a Theo man through and through.

emancipator wrote:This is basically the same point I was making yesterday - it's boils down to lack of quality players. I can't think of a single world class English player over the last decade - or at least I'm struggling.

They may look good in the premier league playing a frantic, furious style of football that suits them, and surrounded by talented foreigners, but on the international stage where things slow down, it's technical and tactical and you have to think - they're bloody clueless. Has been the case all of my life except for a couple of tourneys.

Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard, Ashley Cole, Wayne Rooney, Rio Ferdinand? Then there's Paul Scholes, John Terry and others. Quite a few of those players finished highly in Balon D'Or votes.

If it's simply the Premier League making these players look good, then how come they have all played a crucial role in the Champions League for Champions League winning teams? That competition is also a lot less frantic than the Premier League and for the last decade England held their own at that level. They had a finalist/winner in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2012. All of those sides had English players at their very core. Sure they had talented foreigners but I'd argue outside of Ronaldo led Manchester United and Arsenal, most of their sides' best players were the English players. Liverpool had Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher, Manchester United had Scholes, Rooney, Ferdinand, Carrick and more, Chelsea had John Terry and Frank Lampard.

There is clearly a disconnect between how these players perform at club level, where they will go down in history as some of the best, and how they performed at international level. I think trying to boil it down to England not producing world class talent is ridiculous. I'm not so sure England have players right now that are world class, but they definitely have had plenty in the last decade.

I think Hodgson is angry to be honest, suspect he's been pushed out of the job and now pushed into this press conference by the FA. I said yesterday that I think a lot of the blame has to go to him, almost all of it in fact, but I can understand if he was completely disappointed in those players who utterly failed to bring their club form to the tournament. 

I think Hodgson is completely past-it. He's not got the tactical nous to work at the highest level, previously he was rigid and out-dated, he responded to these criticisms by changing to a method of having seemingly having no plan and no real tactical style. I think he could in some way make up for this if he was a charismatic manager, he'd get the players behind him, but he's so dull and uninspiring that it makes it even worse. He shouldn't have been given the England job in the first place, he was given it when they panicked after Capello was fired. He definitely shouldn't have kept it after the awful performance at the World Cup.

Crimey wrote:

emancipator wrote:This is basically the same point I was making yesterday - it's boils down to lack of quality players. I can't think of a single world class English player over the last decade - or at least I'm struggling.

They may look good in the premier league playing a frantic, furious style of football that suits them, and surrounded by talented foreigners, but on the international stage where things slow down, it's technical and tactical and you have to think - they're bloody clueless. Has been the case all of my life except for a couple of tourneys.

Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard, Ashley Cole, Wayne Rooney, Rio Ferdinand? Then there's Paul Scholes, John Terry and others. Quite a few of those players finished highly in Balon D'Or votes.

If it's simply the Premier League making these players look good, then how come they have all played a crucial role in the Champions League for Champions League winning teams? That competition is also a lot less frantic than the Premier League and for the last decade England held their own at that level. They had a finalist/winner in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2012. All of those sides had English players at their very core. Sure they had talented foreigners but I'd argue outside of Ronaldo led Manchester United and Arsenal, most of their sides' best players were the English players. Liverpool had Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher, Manchester United had Scholes, Rooney, Ferdinand, Carrick and more, Chelsea had John Terry and Frank Lampard.

There is clearly a disconnect between how these players perform at club level, where they will go down in history as some of the best, and how they performed at international level. I think trying to boil it down to England not producing world class talent is ridiculous. I'm not so sure England have players right now that are world class, but they definitely have had plenty in the last decade.

All of those guys had already made their impact more than 10 years ago. Nothing since.

Those champions league teams had at most 3 English players on the pitch at any one time which adds to my point.

None, zero, zilch of last nights team are world class.

Can't disagree with your assessment of Hodgson.

The last good England tem was Circa 2006 or thereabouts with Scholes, Becks, Owen, Campbell, ferdy, cole at al

It's been all cack since then. Them's the truth.

I think I've figured out what happened last night.

The players saw the result of the Brexit vote and decided to show their support for the nation by getting out of Europe as quickly as possible...





..I'll get me coat...

I've been hearing/reading bits about how "this is the lowest moment in England football history" and stuff similar to that.

I don't think it's quite that bad. Iceland are a very credible football side - but a lot of fans and the media seem to look past that and gawp at the population size - who have beaten the Netherlands twice, defeated Austria, and drew to Hungary and Portugal.

Not denying that England were poor, but there's rather a lot of hyperbole about the scale of the calamity. Iceland are a very competent football side, not some minnow nation, not some plucky nation, but a talented team equipped with excellent tactics and strategy. France won't have it easy.

And I see the bookmakers, who never watch actual football matches and instead are reliant on various statistics, have compounded their previous error by offering 9/1 on Iceland to beat France in 90 minutes, or 5/1 to qualify overall.

We haven't had a world class player for years, a young Rooney looked like he might make the step up but flattered to deceive.

How many of the top European clubs are looking to sign any of this England squad, the answer non, because the players aren't  not good enough.

If I was Joe Hart I would ask my agent to sound out another club, because if he thinks a winner like Guardiola will put up with he's gaffes he better think again, he'll look to replace him no doubt about that, and I suspect Cahill will be in the same boat at Chelsea.

Get in there Iceland!!!

Mochyn du wrote:Get in there Iceland!!!  

The match was last night, have you just got out of bed and watched the highlights or something.

I think a part time dentist could have done a better job than Roy Hodgson.  

He is not coaching these players (and he has coaches as support staff for that purpose anyway) - the players get that at their own club.  

All he has to do is to analyse the opponents and set up systems, plans, tactics to beat and counter the opponents, fit the systems to the available players (going down to championship level if necessary), find a few on field leaders, convince the players of the system and get them to understand the system, pick players that are fit for purpose, healthy and energetic, play players in positions they know and are comfortable with ...

... it is not rocket science.  Just look at the Icelandic team as an example and England can do much better than that with the players they have available in the leagues.

Nore Staat wrote:I think a part time dentist being paid expenses could have done a better job than Roy Hodgson.  

He is not coaching these players (and he has coaches as support staff for that purpose) - the players get that at their own club.  

All he has to do is to analyse the opponents and set up systems, plans, tactics to beat and counter the opponents, fit the systems to the available players (going down to championship level if necessary), find a few on field leaders, convince the players of the system and get them to understand the system, pick players that are fit for purpose, healthy and energetic, play players in positions they know and are comfortable with ... it is not rocket science.  Just look at the Icelandic team as an example and England can do much better than that with the players they have in the leagues.

One of Hodgson's problems as Shearer pointed out was his loyalty to certain players based on form a year or 2 ago, Wilshire and Henderson 2 who hadn't played enough football to be match fit and Sterling who has had an awful season for City.

Drinkwater must have wondered what he had to do to get on the plane. Sturridge all of a sudden becomes a right winger, and Kane becomes a dead ball specialist, if your going to play with width you take wingers, not play a striker out of position. Sterling reminded me very much like Shaun Wright-Phillips totally clueless.

I think we get the issues we faced with having Roy. What's done is done, no point stating what the squad should or shouldn't have been. Time to think about the future now & his replacement. Having heard the PC, they banged on about the continued issue of failing at the knockout stages & the team faltering under the pressures of reaching that stage, something which will need to taken into account, when appointing the new management.

Well, that immediately should discount Southgate. He has no history or proven success at that level & failed with the U-21's to even get out of the Euro 2015 group. I really think the F.A will go bold with this appointment. We have to be looking at appointing a manager with a proven track record of taking International or club sides through knockout stages & who can develop youth, otherwise, we'll just be saying the same thing, post-Russia.

Forster, Butland, Heaton

Stones, Smalling, Clyne, Cresswell, Bertrand, Walker, Dier

Barkley, Townsend, Lallana, Drinkwater, Alli, Noble, Antonio

Rashford, Kane, Vardy, Sturridge, Carroll

Give Rooney, Sterling, Rose, Wilshere, Hart, Henderson, Cahill some time away to prove themselves in the league again, and let us look at some different players. Retire Milner. The first squad should have some sign of "moving on" before we bring in some of the failed lot again when they have shown they can earn their place.

LiamB wrote:I think we get the issues we faced with having Roy. What's done is done, no point stating what the squad should or shouldn't have been. Time to think about the future now & his replacement. Having heard the PC, they banged on about the continued issue of failing at the knockout stages & the team faltering under the pressures of reaching that stage, something which will need to taken into account, when appointing the new management.

Well, that immediately should discount Southgate. He has no history or proven success at that level & failed with the U-21's to even get out of the Euro 2015 group. I really think the F.A will go bold with this appointment. We have to be looking at appointing a manager with a proven track record of taking International or club sides through knockout stages & who can develop youth, otherwise, we'll just be saying the same thing, post-Russia.

If the FA make the mistake of putting Southgate in charge we won't need to worry about Russia we won't be there.

emancipator wrote:

Crimey wrote:

emancipator wrote:This is basically the same point I was making yesterday - it's boils down to lack of quality players. I can't think of a single world class English player over the last decade - or at least I'm struggling.

They may look good in the premier league playing a frantic, furious style of football that suits them, and surrounded by talented foreigners, but on the international stage where things slow down, it's technical and tactical and you have to think - they're bloody clueless. Has been the case all of my life except for a couple of tourneys.

Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard, Ashley Cole, Wayne Rooney, Rio Ferdinand? Then there's Paul Scholes, John Terry and others. Quite a few of those players finished highly in Balon D'Or votes.

If it's simply the Premier League making these players look good, then how come they have all played a crucial role in the Champions League for Champions League winning teams? That competition is also a lot less frantic than the Premier League and for the last decade England held their own at that level. They had a finalist/winner in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2012. All of those sides had English players at their very core. Sure they had talented foreigners but I'd argue outside of Ronaldo led Manchester United and Arsenal, most of their sides' best players were the English players. Liverpool had Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher, Manchester United had Scholes, Rooney, Ferdinand, Carrick and more, Chelsea had John Terry and Frank Lampard.

There is clearly a disconnect between how these players perform at club level, where they will go down in history as some of the best, and how they performed at international level. I think trying to boil it down to England not producing world class talent is ridiculous. I'm not so sure England have players right now that are world class, but they definitely have had plenty in the last decade.

All of those guys had already made their impact more than 10 years ago. Nothing since. Some of them are debatable in any case.

Those champions league teams had at most 3 English players on the pitch at any one time which adds to my point.

None, zero, zilch of last nights team are world class.

It's 2016, other than Scholes, their primes were all within the previous 10 years. 

That's true, but the English players were usually their key players.

Dolph, we've kind of done the 'go away & prove yourself' thing. Basically all Sterling or whoever has to do, is provide one good performance in the PL against a low end PL side & the world of social media & the pundits start creaming themselves again & lauding them as world class. The F.A's 'Yes' man, then immediately calls them back into the fold. I agree with your idea, but in reality, it won't happen.

Exactly, we go straight into an away World Cup qualifying game against Slovakia, who we could not even beat. The likelihood of having a trial squad of fresh faces is not going to happen, seeing as the new manager will be under pressure straight away to get a result.

Antonio & Carroll have absolutely no chance of being selected

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Forster, Butland, Heaton

Stones, Smalling, Clyne, Cresswell, Bertrand, Walker, Dier

Barkley, Townsend, Lallana, Drinkwater, Alli, Noble, Antonio

Rashford, Kane, Vardy, Sturridge, Carroll

Give Rooney, Sterling, Rose, Wilshere, Hart, Henderson, Cahill some time away to prove themselves in the league again, and let us look at some different players. Retire Milner. The first squad should have some sign of "moving on" before we bring in some of the failed lot again when they have shown they can earn their place.

 Basically, just put in the West Ham players?

I think Noble should have had opportunities over the last five years, but he didn't, and he's now 29, by the time Russia comes around he's 31; that is not long-term thinking at all. 

I like Andy Carroll, but if those listed have to prove themselves in the league again, then Carroll certainly has to. I can't imagine he'll be first choice this year at West Ham. He's spent most of the last five years injured and when he has been fit his form has been erratic at best. I think he has got to prove his fitness first, then prove his form and then we can consider it. 

Antonio and Creswell I agree with, particularly if Antonio can continue his form from this year. I think he'll be a very useful player for England because of his versatility. I'm not sure Creswell is a huge improvement on Shaw or Bertrand, but I think his inclusion would be merited. 

I'm not convinced that Drinkwater will continue to perform at the level he did this year, if he does then he deserves a shot, otherwise I imagine he'll drop back down to his natural level. I thought he looked completely out of place on the international stage and I definitely don't think England would have been improved if he was at the competition.

I just don't think Townsend is good enough, he could get into the squad simply because of the lack of any other quality wingers, but he's too one-dimensional for me. He has to get at least one full year of being a Premier League regular before he can be considered for that position in the England squad. The fact that he's 24 and the best he's done is 25 games in 2013-14 says it all for me.

Crimey wrote:... I just don't think Townsend is good enough ...

You are probably right, but he would likely be a shoo in for an Icelandic, Slovakian or Welsh side that might beat England.

Its just my pick, not the definite we should or anything. Can't really argue that two of them deserve it based on form and age, whilst the other two are better than the other options.

Its not about long-term thinking overall, its about changing the thinking and moving on. No more free-rides because you play for Liverpool. Townsend was in very good form, and we had no other pace option. Antonio was in great form, same applied. With Sterling out, you need two men who can play there or you end up with a Sturridge and Rashford problem where both are played as wingers when neither are.

Noble and Drinkwater are ahead of the others behind them so they get picked. Noses up like this is part of the problem.

Carroll was in better form than his counterparts and is basically a unique option. The manager needs to know about him, so he should be picked as that bench option and seen in training.

At the moment you're kind of saying "well, Townsend, Drinkwater, Noble - you only played well for a season, so Hendo, Milly and Jack can play again cos they played good for some seasons a while ago"

And what is "good enough"? Townsend and Drinkwater have been better than the other options. You cant pick players you dont have. Stop this arrogance, we have to pick players based on what they are doing in front of us, not assuming we deserve to walk over teams.

Italy play Emanuele Giaccherini. A guy Sunderland wanted rid of desperately. He wouldnt be good enough for England in your world, but Italy don't have that naive arrogance and they are not scared to play to their strengths.

Nicked this from Paddy Power but made me laugh:

Pundits now wondering whether Rooney will stay on for England in the deep role and be like Pirlo. Sure, let's stick a Cornetto on a horses' nose and it can be like a Unicorn.

England have to play in form players that can fit into the system(s) the England team is set up for.  History tells us that playing out of form players or unfit players or in form players out of position leads to failure.  England has one of the biggest pools of players to choose from although you may have to go down the leagues to find them.  Leicester City showed what could be done (similarly Iceland ...)

LiamB wrote:Exactly, we go straight into an away World Cup qualifying game against Slovakia, who we could not even beat. The likelihood of having a trial squad of fresh faces is not going to happen, seeing as the new manager will be under pressure straight away to get a result.

Antonio & Carroll have absolutely no chance of being selected

You might of missed this post, but this is the reason we won't be playing WHU players or any other unknowns at this level, when we have a serious qualifier to deal with. We haven't got time to bed a manager in or play a friendly. We have the players already, this was about the management, the formation & the planning, not about squad selection, in my opinion.

Sadly there isnt a lot waiting in the wings currently. Welbeck, Walcott, Delph, Ox, Ings are all players Criwoy may accept.

We have players who could be a real in your face nightmare. We didnt use them, or at least we didnt use that side of their game.

emancipator wrote:

Those champions league teams had at most 3 English players on the pitch at any one time which adds to my point.

In the 2008 final we (Man United) had 6 English starters all while Chelsea had 4, that constituted at the time 7 of the England starting eleven.

LiamB wrote:

LiamB wrote:Exactly, we go straight into an away World Cup qualifying game against Slovakia, who we could not even beat. The likelihood of having a trial squad of fresh faces is not going to happen, seeing as the new manager will be under pressure straight away to get a result.

Antonio & Carroll have absolutely no chance of being selected

You might of missed this post, but this is the reason we won't be playing WHU players or any other unknowns at this level, when we have a serious qualifier to deal with. We haven't got time to bed a manager in or play a friendly. We have the players already, this was about the management, the formation & the planning, not about squad selection, in my opinion.

I saw it, I just dont think it matters too much. We are taking out players who can easily be replaced, whilst leaving a lot of good ones there.

If I dropped Hart, Rooney, Wilshere, Henderson, Sterling that is three players who started, and two of those were annoyed at Kane for playing worse than them. Cahill is no loss. Frankly, we need to make changes for Slovakia as they do not have any fear of the team we just had.

I would rather that side with fresh ideas and mindsets, and also players who bust a gut when they play.

I remember sometime ago another England manager who had a number of good right footed midfielders choosing a right footed midfielder for a left midfield role - because he said he would be "stupid not to pick his best players".  I always thought that was a stupid answer because he wouldn't play a goal keeper in an outfield position if his two best players were goalkeepers.  You have to pick the best player for the position not the best players out of position.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Its just my pick, not the definite we should or anything. Can't really argue that two of them deserve it based on form and age, whilst the other two are better than the other options.

Its not about long-term thinking overall, its about changing the thinking and moving on. No more free-rides because you play for Liverpool. Townsend was in very good form, and we had no other pace option. Antonio was in great form, same applied. With Sterling out, you need two men who can play there or you end up with a Sturridge and Rashford problem where both are played as wingers when neither are.

Noble and Drinkwater are ahead of the others behind them so they get picked. Noses up like this is part of the problem.

Carroll was in better form than his counterparts and is basically a unique option. The manager needs to know about him, so he should be picked as that bench option and seen in training.

At the moment you're kind of saying "well, Townsend, Drinkwater, Noble - you only played well for a season, so Hendo, Milly and Jack can play again cos they played good for some seasons a while ago"

Who is getting a free-ride because they play for Liverpool? The only person I think from Liverpool who wasn't in that team on entirely merit was Henderson and he was in there because he's been an England regular for two years. 

Who was Carroll in better form than? Of the forwards taken, only Rooney. Who played in midfield.

To be fair Milner had a much, much better season than Townsend. He's retiring from international football anyway and he played 4 minutes.

Townsend playing rubbish is still better than James Milner.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Sadly there isnt a lot waiting in the wings currently. Welbeck, Walcott, Delph, Ox, Ings are all players Criwoy may accept.

We have players who could be a real in your face nightmare. We didnt use them, or at least we didnt use that side of their game.  

I wouldn't put any of those in the squad, maybe Welbeck? I don't actually think the squad taken was too bad and I don't think the squad you replaced it with is any better or would have done any better, it has basically all the same problems.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Townsend playing rubbish is still better than James Milner.

Total and utter rubbish. Not that I should expect any better.

Crimey wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Townsend playing rubbish is still better than James Milner.

Total and utter rubbish. Not that I should expect any better.

Not at all, if Milner wasn't a Liverpool player you wouldn't be defending, he is an awful player to be taking to a major championship, backwards thinking at it's worst.

Milner wasnt going to be on the wing, and should be, so was a waste of space in that squad. Hendo wasnt fit and got in on reputation, one he doesnt deserve either.

Carroll was in good enough form to be taken ahead of Sturridge probably, who Klopp wasnt entirely keen on as first choice and was just a much of a muchness pick. Sturridge is the better player, no doubt, but he offered one goal and nothing else really? Plus, as possibly third choice striker he offered no alternative style where we needed it. Although id have taken Carroll over Rashford anyway, who whilst decent just wasnt going to have a huge impact.

Moreover, the players I picked were in form and much different players to those theyd displace. Reputation picks are getting us nowhere

I wouldn't have taken Carroll because hes not remotely good enough. A fit Sturridge is twice as dangerous.

Hero wrote:Nicked this from Paddy Power but made me laugh:

Pundits now wondering whether Rooney will stay on for England in the deep role and be like Pirlo. Sure, let's stick a Cornetto on a horses' nose and it can be like a Unicorn.

emancipator

Your viewpoint that is immovable aside, we could have done with him. With teams sitting deep and us throwing crosses in, we really could have scared some defences with Carroll late on. But be happy with the like for like replacements and tactics which had us standing around, eventually going out wide then either crossing to our aerially inept squad, or being forced to retreat and start over the misery again cos our options in the box were lifeless and short.

Taking a handful of players from a team that came 7th in a rubbish pl wasn't going to improve England's fortunes.

Think people need to stop worrying about which team players play for tbh.