Euro 2016 Discussion

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Thats an awful pass from Kane

He's "resigned" from a job where his contract was about to expire.

Disagree on Wilshere, even short of match fitness, he was the only player who remotely looked capable of creating anything yesterday.

Don't think it helps to go down the we need to get the kids in and we need to play this system etc road again.

As HH said yesterday I think they badly need somebody who is going to change the mind set of this side. Not sure who that is but Southgate or Howe don't really appeal.

I think he's a **** but Brenda could do the job if he hadn't gone Celtic. Wouldn't even mind a Gary Neville type is he wasn't tainted by this failure

Gareth Southgate? Would rather have Gareth Gates!

Gary Neville is associated with a failed regime & failed at Valencia. I didn't see him on the sidelines last night, showing any passion either.

As for Rooney, 'it will be interesting to see who the next manager is & if I'm selected, I will be there'.

Just retire.

Rooney has Geoff Boycott syndrome. "Don't give a sh!t how the team does as long as my figures are ok"

As I said, he's not the guy I'd go for, but the kind of character.

Wary of the same passion debate again. Just masking the real issue with nonsense.

No foreign managers, English managers clearly not up to the job,

Some kind of animal hybrid then?

Roy's selections were bewildering -
WTF did Sterling do to justify a recall when clearly at absolute rock bottom form and confidence? looked scared of receiving the ball, which for the one guy picked to run at the opposition is pathetic.

Kane in a slump, perhaps a hang over of Spurs poor finish to the league season, yet got recalled to play against a big and strong defence, where a more mobile option could have caused them greater difficulty.

Sturridge: No first touch and no ability to link with team mates. Playing wide right (and Sterling wide left) meant no option to go outside the full back and get crosses in. No possible justification for picking him in front of Lallana, who at least gave the team some shape and linked well with the overlapping fullback (whether Walker or Clyne - for me not much between them as both can be dangerous going forward but have limitations defensively). Would have to play centrally or not at all.

Wilshere: So short of match sharpness. Failed to link the play up and provide the injection of creativity we so badly needed.

Hart: Questioned over the Russia goal, definitely at fault on the Bale free kick, I felt could have come and dealt with the flick on for the first Iceland goal and as for the second... On current form, Forster and Butland (when fit again) are both ahead of him.

Not sure what to make of Alli - actually thought he was about as good as anyone last night (which is not saying much...), but he's not managed in this tournament to be either as creative or as much of a goal threat as he has for Spurs.

Rashford: Why give him 4 minutes at the end? Beat more defenders in that time that Sterling did in nearly an hour...

Baffled by the non-selection of Noble and the balance of the squad when Townsend was omitted. Why take Barklay and have him sit on the bench all tournament?

Going forward? God only knows who will be the manager. There is the basis for a decent team with Smalling and Stones at CB, Dier in the holding midfield position, Barklay, Wilshere and Alli competing for 1 or 2 spots as more creative midfielders and Kane (for all he has had a poor tournament) as the central striker. Lots to think about around these though - should we revert to 4-4-2 and actually get some wingers in the side and pick full backs to defend, or a midfield diamond, or the 4-5-1 / 4-3-3 system Roy fell into?

I don't mind Rooney saying what he said - I disagree with players retiring from international football. However, it's up to the next manager to decide whether to pick him or not.

Might as well give the England manager job to Nigel Farage the way the team is going.

I guess he does know how to win in Europe.

No way Rooney should be in the England squad for the next tournament. He'll be 32 and his form had dipped alarmingly. Now is the time to blood the new breed and play them as frequently as possible. The likes of Alli, Dier and Rashford will hopefully have gained some experience and matured I the next two years.

Whoever the manager is, he needs to have an infectious personality and enthusiasm for the game. The team and the fans need to get behind him. The F.A. need to stop living in the past with the old boy's network mentality and get someone in who will ruffle a few feathers if needs be.

I'd go with Frank De Boer. Worked with Ajax & been very successful, tactically sharp & has helped develop many players, who have come through the Ajax youth system. We need a manager who understands the modern game & can push through Stones, Alli, Barkley & Rashford types & fit them into a working system.

Would also help if club managers stop blowing smoke up the holes of their players and making them believe they're World Class when they're anything but. Ross Barkley is a prime example of this.

It's just like the aftermath of the Uruguay game from the last WC. Except it's 2 yrs on and nothings changed. Pure ineptitude from the coaching staff is to blame for this. Bad selections, poor tactics, no game plan for different opponents and a complete lack of man management. How can players who've had great season like Kane, Vardy, Ali all of a sudden be bereft of confidence and play so poorly? Players that ended the season strongly like Drinkwater and Townsend ( who can actually beat a full back and shoot) stay at home? Roy is and always was a dinosaur for this job, footballs changed, his philosophy hasn't. A shame Greg Dyke sat on his back end, dither and let Roy's successor go to United...IMO of course.

I think Alan Shearer had it spot on.

People bang on about the Premier League being the richest and most exciting league in the world, but it seems the English players are largely carried by their foreign team mates...and how many English managers are there? Bruce, Pulis, Howe, Pardew...have I missed anyone? We are simply not as good as we like to think we are. Either that, or we've had a succession of managers who have grossly misused (or neglected entirely) the talent at their disposal.

He also hit the nail on the head when he said it looked like Hodgson was making it up as he went along. We never seemed to have a clear game plan against any of the teams we played and relied instead on the skill of individual players to make something happen. God knows they certainly seemed to lack guidance, leadership and inspiration.

I hope the the FA take their time and find someone with both tactical nous and good man management skills. Until we start picking players on form instead of reputation and stop trying to force square pegs into round holes, we will never get anywhere.

It is said that football is a simple game when you get right down to it. Yet since Terry Venables left, we've endeavoured to make it look like rocket science.

The fact we were beaten by a country that doesn't even have its own national league, some of whose players are part-timers, just shows the FA and our national footballing structure in general, has become blinded by the cult of celebrity.

The biggest names are picked by default, regardless of whether they are playing well...or at all for their clubs and are frequently asked to play out of position. Formations and tactics are changed on a game-by-game basis, on the manager's whim, regardless of whether they will be effective against the opposition.

Just to point out that whilst players had good domestic seasons the pl is a very weak league currently and as many of the players had bad seasons as those that had good.

frequently asked to play out of position.

Mostly Liverpool players...John Barnes, Steven Gerrard and Daniel Sturridge spring to mind. I think David James once played at left back!

dyrewolfe wrote:People bang on about the Premier League being the richest and most exciting league in the world, but it seems the English players are largely carried by their foreign team mates...

I completely disagree. Kane, Alli and Dier were probably Tottenham's three best players this season. Sure maybe Rose and Walker were helped by the two fantastic centre backs, but a big part of Tottenham's success came through Kane, Alli and Dier. 

Same for Liverpool, Milner, Lallana and Clyne were three of Liverpool's most consistent performers in a season where they reached two cup finals. Sturridge is Liverpool's best player and Henderson was fantastic the two seasons before this one where he suffered injuries. 

Leicester have just won the league on the back of Drinkwater and Vardy's great performances, sure Kante and Mahrez were also great but I don't think the former two players were carried at all.

It's been a problem for a while now, but I'm not sure what the solution is. England's players aren't lower in quality, they're not carried by their foreign teammates at all. Paul Scholes, Steven Gerrard, Wayne Rooney, Frank Lampard, Rio Ferdinand, John Terry, Jamie Carragher, Michael Owen, David Beckham, Ashley Cole; these are all players that were absolutely key to their club sides at one or another. They were not just there to make up English numbers, they were the very spine of some of the best sides in Europe and yet none of them ever really turned up at international tournaments. Do England players not care about internationals? Certainly Gary Neville came out and said that he didn't care. I just can't see that being the case for all of them, other than Carragher and Scholes most of these players were always available for England duty and never seemed to shirk away from it; there are five England captains in that list. Yet none of them managed to produce the same form. Other international sides naturally have a similar problem, they spend last time together etc. England though have had this problem worse than any other I feel. 

I thought it might be that it was the difference between success at club level and international, that whilst fighting for Champions League trophies and Premier League titles, they couldn't motivate to play for England who weren't on the same level. However, England's players are now not at that level, but still don't play with more passion. It's a very strange situation.

The reactions at the end weren't short of passion.

Issue for me is still mindset/mentality, when the pressures on for England they all shrink. The ball starts going sideways, nobody wants to take responsibility.

Ent wrote:Just to point out that whilst players had good domestic seasons the pl is a very weak league currently and as many of the players had bad seasons as those that had good.

Good point Ent.

I wonder if we could have progressed further (and played better) if we'd picked a team of Championship players, using a bog-standard 4-4-2 formation and drilled them to play fairly simple tactics (pressing game, lots of wing play, strikers hanging around the penalty box, defenders keeping tight lines for the offside trap).

Always surprised any England fans expected Hodgson to do anything at all with England after his Liverpool performance, as they are effectively just International Liverpool. Fans with unrealistic expectations based on the glory days 40 years previous and players who aren't good enough to live up to those expectations!

Ent wrote:Just to point out that whilst players had good domestic seasons the pl is a very weak league currently and as many of the players had bad seasons as those that had good.

I'm not sure that's true. Looking at the squad, the only players I'd say who had bad seasons were:

Raheem Sterling: didn't really settle, but even his stats aren't too bad.
Jack Wilshere: Barely played.
Jordan Henderson: Played through an injury for much of the season, spent periods on the sidelines. 
Gary Cahill: Chelsea were atrocious, although Zouma played for much of the initial part of the season when they were particularly bad.
John Stones: Seemed to regress in ability.

Good seasons:

Harry Kane: Premier League top scorer, was part of a Tottenham side that finished 2nd.
Jamie Vardy: Scored loads of goals as Leicester won the league.
Delli Alli: An incredibly important part of Tottenham's team.
Joe Hart: 15 clean sheets, only bettered by Petr Cech with 16.
Fraser Forster: Made a new club record of clean sheets.
Tom Heaton: 20 clean sheets as Burnley win the league.
Kyle Walker: Important part of Tottenham that came 2nd.
Danny Rose: As above.
Chris Smalling: Established as first choice centre back at Manchester United, had a good season.
Nathaniel Clyne: One of Liverpool's best players as they reached two finals.
Ryan Betrand: Good season for an overachieving Southampton side.
James Milner: One of Liverpool's best players as they reached two finals.
Adam Lallana: As above.
Eric Dier: Crucial part of Tottenham's side when they came 2nd.
Marcus Rashford: Took Manchester United by storm, scored plenty of goals.

Neutral seasons:

Wayne Rooney: Hard to judge really whether he should be happy or not.
Daniel Sturridge: Still managed to score 13 goals in 25 games, without injuries would have been a good season.
Ross Barkley: Did reasonably well, but Everton were poor.

Crimey wrote:

Ent wrote:Just to point out that whilst players had good domestic seasons the pl is a very weak league currently and as many of the players had bad seasons as those that had good.

I'm not sure that's true. Looking at the squad, the only players I'd say who had bad seasons were:

Raheem Sterling: didn't really settle, but even his stats aren't too bad.
Jack Wilshere: Barely played.
Jordan Henderson: Played through an injury for much of the season, spent periods on the sidelines. 
Gary Cahill: Chelsea were atrocious, although Zouma played for much of the initial part of the season when they were particularly bad.
John Stones: Seemed to regress in ability.

Good seasons:

Harry Kane: Premier League top scorer, was part of a Tottenham side that finished 2nd.
Jamie Vardy: Scored loads of goals as Leicester won the league.
Delli Alli: An incredibly important part of Tottenham's team.
Joe Hart: 15 clean sheets, only bettered by Petr Cech with 16.
Fraser Forster: Made a new club record of clean sheets.
Tom Heaton: 20 clean sheets as Burnley win the league.
Kyle Walker: Important part of Tottenham that came 2nd.
Danny Rose: As above.
Chris Smalling: Established as first choice centre back at Manchester United, had a good season.
Nathaniel Clyne: One of Liverpool's best players as they reached two finals.
Ryan Betrand: Good season for an overachieving Southampton side.
James Milner: One of Liverpool's best players as they reached two finals.
Adam Lallana: As above.
Eric Dier: Crucial part of Tottenham's side when they came 2nd.
Marcus Rashford: Took Manchester United by storm, scored plenty of goals.

Neutral seasons:

Wayne Rooney: Hard to judge really whether he should be happy or not.
Daniel Sturridge: Still managed to score 13 goals in 25 games, without injuries would have been a good season.
Ross Barkley: Did reasonably well, but Everton were poor.

Spurs finished 3rd btw.

Interesting name floated out there - Laurent Blanc?

Crimey wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:People bang on about the Premier League being the richest and most exciting league in the world, but it seems the English players are largely carried by their foreign team mates...

I completely disagree. Kane, Alli and Dier were probably Tottenham's three best players this season. Sure maybe Rose and Walker were helped by the two fantastic centre backs, but a big part of Tottenham's success came through Kane, Alli and Dier. 

Same for Liverpool, Milner, Lallana and Clyne were three of Liverpool's most consistent performers in a season where they reached two cup finals. Sturridge is Liverpool's best player and Henderson was fantastic the two seasons before this one where he suffered injuries. 

Leicester have just won the league on the back of Drinkwater and Vardy's great performances, sure Kante and Mahrez were also great but I don't think the former two players were carried at all.

It's been a problem for a while now, but I'm not sure what the solution is. England's players aren't lower in quality, they're not carried by their foreign teammates at all. Paul Scholes, Steven Gerrard, Wayne Rooney, Frank Lampard, Rio Ferdinand, John Terry, Jamie Carragher, Michael Owen, David Beckham, Ashley Cole; these are all players that were absolutely key to their club sides at one or another. They were not just there to make up English numbers, they were the very spine of some of the best sides in Europe and yet none of them ever really turned up at international tournaments. Do England players not care about internationals? Certainly Gary Neville came out and said that he didn't care. I just can't see that being the case for all of them, other than Carragher and Scholes most of these players were always available for England duty and never seemed to shirk away from it; there are five England captains in that list. Yet none of them managed to produce the same form. Other international sides naturally have a similar problem, they spend last time together etc. England though have had this problem worse than any other I feel. 

I thought it might be that it was the difference between success at club level and international, that whilst fighting for Champions League trophies and Premier League titles, they couldn't motivate to play for England who weren't on the same level. However, England's players are now not at that level, but still don't play with more passion. It's a very strange situation.

But were / are they though?

I agree these very same players have been fantastic for their clubs, but could it be that its the players around them that make them look so good i.e. give them the support they need to play their roles so effectively?

When that support is taken away and they have to play with their international colleagues they barely look good enough to beat a Sunday League team.

So either these players aren't actually as good as they seem and are only capable of performing well with their club team mates, using their club systems and tactics, or:

For the last 20 years we've employed a succession of managers (some of whom have come with glittering track records) who haven't had a clue how to fit these players into a similar system at international level and employ them in roles where they can deliver their best.

I'd say its probably a bit of both. I reckon England managers are hamstrung to a certain degree by the FA and/or Premier League. I also think the England shirt has become a symbol of failure and players seem to freeze. They become afraid and uncertain when they are called on to play for their country.

True, point remains though.

Hero wrote:Might as well give the England manager job to Nigel Farage the way the team is going.

Well...he is looking for a job right now after recently being made unemployed.

GSC wrote:Interesting name floated out there - Laurent Blanc?

A Frenchman?!?!?!!? We're talking about National footballing pride and then suggesting we allow the bloody French to lead our National team. Almost as bad as post 2014 some c*nt suggested Klinnsman. What's next.... asking Maradonna?

Dear Lord I think I'd rather have ignominious failure than having to accept that the French had any part in our success

BTW this is all good natured xenophobic ribbing disguised as out and out racism. Or is it the other way round, either way, I'm not having it! We've let the Italians have a go and that didn't work. I say we give the job to a well trained chimp or that gorilla that knows sign language, at least he might offer more instruction from the bench than Roy's done for the last few years.

The French...dear me, before we know it they'll be over here reeking of garlic, getting us to appreciate art and making us read philosophy whilst teaching us how to seduce our women...c*nts!

It has been very interesting following England's games with Italian commentary and expert analysis from the likes of Paolo Di Canio. For them the main problem is not the ability of the players, many of whom they rate very highly. Instead they criticise very heavily the level of tactical preparation saying that the English players don't have set ideas or strategies on how they want to attack, defend or control the game in different scenarios. Thus the players are playing off the cuff which results in poor performances as the creativity should be planned creativity not spontaneous creativity. They put the blame on the manager and the coaching staff for this lack of preparation and organisation.

LMAO!

Thanks to Duty and Dave for cheering me up. I'd not seen that poster of Farage before. I knew he had a high opinion of himself but thats just comedy of the highest order.

Hit the nail on the head Dave. We don't want any of them furrin twonks coming over here with their fancy ideas and teaching us how to play football properly...the very idea! We gave the game to the world and they should damn well play the way we play. How dare they go and get all clever and actually have game plans?

DAVE667 wrote:

 I say we give the job to a well trained chimp or that gorilla that knows sign language, at least he might offer more instruction from the bench than Roy's done for the last few years.

At least they'd be able to communicate with the captain more effectively.

Eek!

Breaking news: Harry Redknapp would back Tim Sherwood as the next England manager.

If the FA are going to promote through the system then give it to Mark Sampson. Atleast he has been doing a good job

Laurent Blanc is truly dreadful

It's sadly going to be 'yes' man, Southgate, who has already showcased his capabilities, with his failed U-21 campaign last year. He's now 5/4.

Glenn Hoddle is second favourite.

I wouldn't mind, but can't see the FA hiring someone who they sacked for his personal beliefs last time out.

Fernando wrote:If the FA are going to promote through the system then give it to Mark Sampson. Atleast he has been doing a good job

Sadly that would be far too sensible for the imbeciles at the FA. He doesn't have a high enough profile, or a track record in the men's game.

Totally agree it would be a good shout...he couldn't do any worse than previous encumbents. Seen a few interviews during the women's World Cup and he seems pretty down to earth, speaks his mind and knows what he expects from his players.


If Southgate gets appointed the only thing we can look forward to is "rebuilding" for the 2022 World Cup after he's sacked .

What about a Polish manager, at least he'd get us building a decent defensive wall...and he'd be relatively cheap.

No, we should put the entire Nation's name in a hat (a metaphorical one obviously, it would have to be a big hat or the names written in very small writing) and just pick someone at random.

They then unveil Irene Bagley, 57, from Leamington Spa who suggests the players hand knit their own shirts and take public transport instead of driving those flashy cars everywhere.

Christ Glenn Hoddle is 2nd favorite now, let's just say mistakes in his current life may rule him out.

DAVE667 wrote:What about a Polish manager, at least he'd get us building a decent defensive wall...and he'd be relatively cheap.

No, we should put the entire Nation's name in a hat (a metaphorical one obviously, it would have to be a big hat or the names written in very small writing) and just pick someone at random.

They then unveil Irene Bagley, 57, from Leamington Spa who suggests the players hand knit their own shirts and take public transport instead of driving those flashy cars everywhere.

Excellent!

Well, to be fair, when they're on England duty, they do take the bus.

GSC wrote:Christ Glenn Hoddle is 2nd favorite now, let's just say mistakes in his current life may rule him out.

Hasn't stopped the TV giving him a job as a pundit has it? Clearly they believe in redemption at a relatively high level and if the F.A. can reward Hodgson's ineptitude in 2014 then I'm sure it's not such a stretch to imagine they'll forgive Hoddle's stupidity. Maybe Ron Atkinson will be Glenn's assistant in charge of weeding out lazy people of colour*

* all people are "coloured"....God how I hate that phrase...and by extension, Halle Berry for saying it at the Oscar's

dyrewolfe wrote: People bang on about the Premier League being the richest and most exciting league in the world, but it seems the English players are largely carried by their foreign team mates...

I wouldn't go that far, but I certainly think that Premier League teams rely on foreign players for creativity. If you look at the players with most assists in the EPL, you'll notice that English players hardly feature (Milner and Alli are in the top 10). Then consider which players are seen as the real creative forces in the league - Mahrez, Ozil, Cazorla, Silva, de Bruyne, Eriksen. Which English players fill that role? Consider which English players over the last 20 years have really been able to dominate games. Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes. Who else? And of those, Lampard and Gerrard were more about energy than control.

To me, that is the English problem in a nutshell: We can produce top quality players. We just don't produce players who really control games. We then come up against a team that's organised at the back, and we don't know how to break them down.

The names linked for the job are laughable. This is exactly why I don't really care about England when it comes to international football. We're just incredibly bad.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/jun/28/england-future-wayne-rooney-roy-hodgson?CMP=share_btn_tw

A pretty good article I think

Michael Carrick could control a midfield but was often overlooked for no reason other than not running around enough.

Carrick would've fit perfectly into last nights team, with his ability to pass it sideways 5 yards.

Though granted that was above Wayne's level.

I doubt any of that Toulon side will step up. The players in that Toulon tournament are pretty average. We have our star youngsters already, Roy just ruined them, simple as. The only one's you can envisage progressing into a England side would be Pickford, after Butland & maybe Grealish, if he sorts himself out, which is highly unlikely. The Wolves duo of Hause/Iorfa are nothing special, Chalobah will never step up, Targett is a poor man's Luke Shaw, Calum Chambers is terrible, Ward-Prowse hasn't progressed, Reuben Loftus is a possibility, depending upon his involvement under Conte & although Olly will disagree, Nathan Redmond is another Raheem Sterling, all pace & no end product.

The core of the side needs to be Butland, Smalling, Stones, Dier, Alli, Barkley, Kane & Rashford. We need a new manager at the helm who can bring these through & find a system, which suits the players strengths. No more big club bias either or square pegs in round holes. It isn't all negative, we have talent, but the next manager decision is crucial. Get it wrong & another generation will go to waste.

I wouldn't write off Sterling at this juncture. Guardiola clearly rates him and only a year ago he was considered one of the brightest talents in Europe.

Particularly since Stones is part of that side and had a crappier season than Raheem.

For those of you who may be interested, Hoddle narrowly won the BBC poll with 13% of the vote, followed by Redknapp with 11% and Allardyce and A N Other sharing 3rd place with 10%.

Right £20 on...*scans the bookmaker's list*....Rafa Benitez at 33/1.

He's not that settled at Newcastle, is he?

Sky reporting senior players had questioned Roy's selection & tactics during the Euro's. Had no chance of succeeding, with unrest throughout the camp between players & a clueless manager.