Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

[Sin é]

What it says in the title - a place to put all bits of news not worth starting a thread for the Four Proud Provinces of Ireland such as new signings, interviews that maybe of interest to others etc.

[Sin é]

Paul O'Connell coaching Munster U19s in Munster's Talent Camp in Rockwell. Great to see him back in harness!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0vjJuIjHjE

[Maine man]

Any news on Ulster signing an emergency back rower? What's the contract situation with Conan, Ryan and Murphy at Leinster?

[westisbest]

Connacht have signed NZ born winger Josh Rowland.

Made his debut earlier in the season for the 7's.

[Golden]

Thought Id give this a bump in light of this weekends games.

Johnny Holland has had to retire at only 25. Wasnt he meant to be the great hope at 10? Who else is there at 10 apart from Keatley?

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/37242988

[Sin é]

Thought Id give this a bump in light of this weekends games.

Johnny Holland has had to retire at only 25. Wasnt he meant to be the great hope at 10? Who else is there at 10 apart from Keatley?

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/37242988

Its pretty rough on the young fellow. He was looking very good last year ok.

Munster have Tyler Bleyendaal who will hopefully stay fit and then the U20s player, Bill Johnson who got injured at Junior World Cup and is out until November (I think).

[Golden]

Leinster Vs Treviso Friday 19:35

Leinster: R Kearney, Z Kirchner, G Ringrose, N Reid, F McFadden, J Carbery, L McGrath (cpt), C Healy, B Byrne, M Bent, R Molony, M McCarthy, D Ryan, J van der Flier, D Leavy,

Replacements: J Tracy, A Porter, M Ross, H Triggs, J Murphy, J Gibson-Park, C Marsh, R O'Loughlin.

Decent enough team out considering all the players missing. Excited to see Carbery get a run out

[Pete330v2]

Any news on Ulster signing an emergency back rower? What's the contract situation with Conan, Ryan and Murphy at Leinster?

Ulster have been refused back row cover by the lovely Nucifora but we have been allowed a short term tight-head prop signing in the huge form of Anton Peikrishvili

[the-goon]

Leinster Vs Treviso Friday 19:35

Leinster: R Kearney, Z Kirchner, G Ringrose, N Reid, F McFadden, J Carbery, L McGrath (cpt), C Healy, B Byrne, M Bent, R Molony, M McCarthy, D Ryan, J van der Flier, D Leavy,

Replacements: J Tracy, A Porter, M Ross, H Triggs, J Murphy, J Gibson-Park, C Marsh, R O'Loughlin.

Decent enough team out considering all the players missing. Excited to see Carbery get a run out

Who is R O'Loughlin? Is he handy?

[Sin é]

Well folks, its been a good few weeks for me - big win for Munster yesterday v Scarlets and Tipperary doing the double today in the hurling beating Kilkenny well in the final and the minors beating Limerick in the All Ireland Minor Final. Tipperary senior hurling team have Denis Leamy in their backroom staff and interesting enough, Tipperary football (who no one is arsed about in Tipperary reached an all Ireland semi final with Ian Dowling in their backroom staff).

Also nice to see Sean Fitzpatrick tweeting his pleasure for his relatives back in Tipperary for winning the hurling final.

[profitius]

Congrats sin é. Good to see Tipp win it.


Stuart Lancaster has joined Leinster until end of season. Good signing.

[munkian]

Well folks, its been a good few weeks for me - big win for Munster yesterday v Scarlets and Tipperary doing the  double today in the hurling beating Kilkenny well in the final and the minors beating Limerick in the All Ireland Minor Final. Tipperary senior hurling team have Denis Leamy in their backroom staff and interesting enough, Tipperary football (who no one is arsed about in Tipperary reached an all Ireland semi final with Ian Dowling in their backroom staff).

Also nice to see Sean Fitzpatrick tweeting his pleasure for his relatives back in Tipperary for winning the hurling final.

Fantastic F bomb live on air at the final too

[Golden]

Anyone know why Connacht only had the one preseason game? Was that by design or were they cancelled for some reason?

[Sin é]

I think one of their games (in France) was cancelled.

[Pete330v2]

I think one of their games (in France) was cancelled.

I thought I'd seen someone say that two of the games were cancelled, was it Marshes that said it?
If it's true it's unfortunate as they were most definitely well undercooked, lets hope things get a lot better for out Westie buddies.

[profitius]

I think one of their games (in France) was cancelled.

I thought I'd seen someone say that two of the games were cancelled, was it Marshes that said it?
If it's true it's unfortunate as they were most definitely well undercooked, lets hope things get a lot better for out Westie buddies.

Narbonne and Bristol cancelled leaving Connacht with one match since the pro12 final.

[profitius]

Team for Cardiff match.

Munster XV: Andrew Conway; Darren Sweetnam, Dan Goggin, Rory Scannell, Ronan O'Mahony; Ian Keatley, Duncan Williams; James Cronin, Niall Scannell, John Ryan; Dave Foley, Billy Holland - capt.; Dave O'Callaghan, Tommy O'Donnell, Jack O'Donoghue.

Replacements: Duncan Casey, Dave Kilcoyne, Brian Scott, Donnacha Ryan, CJ Stander, Tomás O'Leary, Cian Bohane, Stephen Fitzgerald.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anyone know much about Brian Scott? He is a very big prop but can he scrummage?

[profitius]

Connacht v Ospreys
15. Tiernan O’Halloran
14. Niyi Adeolokun
13. Eoin Griffin
12. Bundee Aki
11. Matt Healy
10. Jack Carty
9. Kieran Marmion
1. Ronan Loughney
2. Tom McCartney
3. Finlay Bealham
4. Ultan Dillane
5. Daniel Qualter
6. Eoin McKeon
7. James Connolly
8. John Muldoon (captain)
Replacements:
16. Dave Heffernan
17. Dominic Robertson-McCoy
18. JP Cooney
19. Lewis Stevenson
20. Rory Moloney
21. Caolin Blade
22. Shane O’Leary
23. Danie Poolman

[Sin é]

Interesting snippet from down Munster way. Munster has Abrie Griesel, a former Baby Bok scrumhalf (won Junior World Cup when it was in SA) training with them at the moment. He was with the Blue Bulls I think, got injured and was out for about a year or so, and the Bulls didn't renew his contract. He decided to travel / Study / play rugby and ended up playing for Young Munster last season (while also studying in Limerick). Now it seems he is training with Munster - I think he is 23 - but he could be in demand if it turns out he is any good.

[Pete330v2]

Interesting indeed Sin é.
Imagine the IRFU allowing a Bok scrum-half to link up with a province and block indigenous talent coming through

[Sin é]

Interesting indeed Sin é.
Imagine the IRFU allowing a Bok scrum-half to link up with a province and block indigenous talent coming through

Pete, he would be Ireland qualified in 2 years time as he has been already here for a year

[Golden]

Interesting indeed Sin é.
Imagine the IRFU allowing a Bok scrum-half to link up with a province and block indigenous talent coming through

Well presumably he wont be starting ahead of Murray for 6+ years while not been eligible for Ireland....

[Pete330v2]

Interesting indeed Sin é.
Imagine the IRFU allowing a Bok scrum-half to link up with a province and block indigenous talent coming through

Pete, he would be Ireland qualified in 2 years time as he has been already here for a year

I know, I just couldn't pass up another opportunity to cry a little bit
It's definitely the way to go if our youth systems aren't going to churn out decent scrum-halves. I mean look who we'll have at Ulster next season at 9. Not exactly players that'll be bothering the Ireland setup barring some kind of scrummy plague. If we can find player from far away pastures and naturalise them I am all for it. I'll be keeping an eye on that young feller.

[Guest]

Interesting indeed Sin é.
Imagine the IRFU allowing a Bok scrum-half to link up with a province and block indigenous talent coming through

Well presumably he wont be starting ahead of Murray for 6+ years while not been eligible for Ireland....

And who was Pienaar blocking from international call up? Marshall?????

IRFU succession policy is a joke.

[Sin é]

Interesting indeed Sin é.
Imagine the IRFU allowing a Bok scrum-half to link up with a province and block indigenous talent coming through

Well presumably he wont be starting ahead of Murray for 6+ years while not been eligible for Ireland....

And who was Pienaar blocking from international call up? Marshall?????

IRFU succession policy is a joke.

Perhaps someone like Marmion (who came through the Exiles) would have gone to Ulster if Pienaar wasn't at Ulster. I seem to recall Marmion & Jackson on the same underage teams (though I think Pienaar was required when Jackson was so inexperienced).

Peter O'Reilly has a right go at Ulster in today's Sunday Times (its subscription http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/irish-sport/ulster-march-on-despite-lack-of-homegrown-talent-sv5w80mhd

Not one of their starting forward pack on Friday learnt their rugby in the province, which must represent some sort of record. While it’s a tribute to Ulster’s ability to source Irish-qualified pros, it doesn’t say much for the ability of their schools and clubs to develop elite players.

Informative article here about the Exiles and how they operate:

http://www.the42.ie/irish-exiles-wayne-mitchell-irish-abroad-2983477-Sep2016/

[The Great Aukster]

Second week in a row that O'Reilly has had a pop at Ulster, last week it was Ulster's failure to develop a scrum half.

[Sin é]

Second week in a row that O'Reilly has had a pop at Ulster, last week it was Ulster's failure to develop a scrum half.

What's his beef?

[Guest]

Second week in a row that O'Reilly has had a pop at Ulster, last week it was Ulster's failure to develop a scrum half.

What's his beef?

You must agree with him, whatever point he's trying to make, otherwise you wouldn't have posted the link. So, what point are you making? Maybe you were having a dig at so many forwards Irish qualified through residency? If so, I'm sure you have a real issue with the hypocrisy of the IRFU's succession policy in packing the Irish squad with so many player qualified through residency, or those who happen to have an Irish granny. On the one hand the IRFU force Pienaar out with the excuse of blocking indigenous talent, on the other hand they are more than happy to block "indigenous talent" when shipping in foreign players for the Ireland squad.

Did you know Sam Arnold is English born?

This is the second or third time you cite Marmion as evidence of Pienaar blocking indigenous talent. Marmion was born in England, raised in Wales, to Irish parents. Hardly indigenous. You have zero evidence that Marmion would have come to Ulster, if given the chance. If Marmion had come to Ulster he wouldn't have been blocked by Pienaar, but would have competed with Marshall as Pienaars understudy.

If Lloyd is a genuine prospect for Ulster he will be without a world class mentor, in Ruan Pienaar. Something that would have been a great benefit to Ulster and the IRFU.

As I said; the IRFU's succession policy is a joke.

[Sin é]

[quote="Munchkin"]

Second week in a row that O'Reilly has had a pop at Ulster, last week it was Ulster's failure to develop a scrum half.

What's his beef?

You must agree with him, whatever point he's trying to make, otherwise you wouldn't have posted the link.

I must do no such thing. I posted the link in case anyone wanted to read it.

So, what point are you making?

I replied to your comment with the comment that if you have a top class scrumhalf like Pienaar in his prime, its highly unlikely that you will get an Irish qualified player to move there. For instance, its highly unlikely that Marmion would come to Munster with Murray in residence.

Maybe you were having a dig at so many forwards Irish qualified through residency? If so, I'm sure you have a real issue with the hypocrisy of the IRFU's succession policy in packing the Irish squad with so many player qualified through residency, or those who happen to have an Irish granny. On the one hand the IRFU force Pienaar out with the excuse of blocking indigenous talent, on the other hand they are more than happy to block "indigenous talent" when shipping in foreign players for the Ireland squad.

Did you know Sam Arnold is English born?

I'll admit I don't want a team that is full of players who have qualified to play for Ireland through residency. I have absolutely no problem with players like Marmion or Bent who have qualified to play for Ireland through heritage.

This is the second or third time you cite Marmion as evidence of Pienaar blocking indigenous talent. Marmion was born in England, raised in Wales, to Irish parents. Hardly indigenous. You have zero evidence that Marmion would have come to Ulster, if given the chance. If Marmion had come to Ulster he wouldn't have been blocked by Pienaar, but would have competed with Marshall as Pienaars understudy.

Starting scrumhalf is position specific (like Prop, hooker & outhalf) and unlike for example, 2nd row, where there is more than one starting position. I mention Marmion because he is a scrumhalf like Pienaar. Marmion wouldn't have gone to Ulster because he knows he would never be starting scrumhalf with Pienaar there. Boss left Ulster because he didn't want to play second fiddle to Pienaar but knew he could compete with Reddan for a starting position at Leinster.

If Lloyd is a genuine prospect for Ulster he will be without a world class mentor, in Ruan Pienaar. Something that would have been a great benefit to Ulster and the IRFU.

As I said; the IRFU's succession policy is a joke.

Lloyd will probably hang around now that he knows that Pienaar is getting on a bit and is leaving. 4 years ago he might not have been content to sit on the bench for a couple of years.

[Guest]

Second week in a row that O'Reilly has had a pop at Ulster, last week it was Ulster's failure to develop a scrum half.

What's his beef?

You must agree with him, whatever point he's trying to make, otherwise you wouldn't have posted the link.

I must do no such thing. I posted the link in case anyone wanted to read it.

So, what point are you making?

I replied to your comment with the comment that if you have a top class scrumhalf like Pienaar in his prime, its highly unlikely that you will get an Irish qualified player to move there. For instance, its highly unlikely that Marmion would come to Munster with Murray in residence.

Maybe you were having a dig at so many forwards Irish qualified through residency? If so, I'm sure you have a real issue with the hypocrisy of the IRFU's succession policy in packing the Irish squad with so many player qualified through residency, or those who happen to have an Irish granny. On the one hand the IRFU force Pienaar out with the excuse of blocking indigenous talent, on the other hand they are more than happy to block "indigenous talent" when shipping in foreign players for the Ireland squad.

Did you know Sam Arnold is English born?

I'll admit I don't want a team that is full of players who have qualified to play for Ireland through residency. I have absolutely no problem with players like Marmion or Bent who have qualified to play for Ireland through heritage.

This is the second or third time you cite Marmion as evidence of Pienaar blocking indigenous talent. Marmion was born in England, raised in Wales, to Irish parents. Hardly indigenous. You have zero evidence that Marmion would have come to Ulster, if given the chance. If Marmion had come to Ulster he wouldn't have been blocked by Pienaar, but would have competed with Marshall as Pienaars understudy.

Starting scrumhalf is position specific (like Prop, hooker & outhalf) and unlike for example, 2nd row, where there is more than one starting position. I mention Marmion because he is a scrumhalf like Pienaar. Marmion wouldn't have gone to Ulster because he knows he would never be starting scrumhalf with Pienaar there. Boss left Ulster because he didn't want to play second fiddle to Pienaar but knew he could compete with Reddan for a starting position at Leinster.

If Lloyd is a genuine prospect for Ulster he will be without a world class mentor, in Ruan Pienaar. Something that would have been a great benefit to Ulster and the IRFU.

As I said; the IRFU's succession policy is a joke.

Lloyd will probably hang around now that he knows that Pienaar is getting on a bit and is leaving. 4 years ago he might not have been content to sit on the bench for a couple of years.

Oh right. You just included the link in your response to me 'in case someone wanted to read it'. You're such a spoofer, Sin é

So you reckon Ulster should drop a world class scrum half on the chance that an English born Exile might come good? Marmion must have a really high opinion of himself if he thinks he's too good to learn at the feet of a world class talent. Maybe he should be ahead of Murray already?
The biggest benefit of bringing in world class talent is that they pass on their skills to those they mentor........

So you're happy with players qualifying on residency and the plastic paddy's. That's fair enough, but I'm sure you see the hypocrisy of the IRFU in claiming that Pienaar blocks indigenous talent (he doesn't), while they themselves do the very same by filling the squad with players who either have an Irish granny, or have qualified on residency?

You don't know if Marmion would have turned down Ulster because Pienaar is here. Marmion has talent, but not exactly the finished article, and shouldn't think he should be starting for any of the top teams. If Marmion had have come to Ulster and had been mentored by Pienaar, he might just be pushing for more Ireland starts. Settling for a bottom table side 'because he fears the competition' shows a lack of ambition. That's if I believed you, which I don't    That's a very weak argument anyway, Sin é. If that was true then we would have an exile - Marmion, blocking players who were born and raised here, according to your thinking.

Lloyd can hang around as long as Ulster Rugby want him, but his best chance to learn from the best has been robbed of him by the IRFU.

[Sin é]

Extract from Donal Lenihan's autobiography (from Examiner).

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/exclusive-extract-from-donal-lenihans-autobiography-from-the-sash-to-the-fields-of-athenry-421566.html

We now know that The Fields of Athenry was Donal Lenihan's party piece back in the early 80s - way before Celtic, Liverpool or anyone else started singing it!

His book should be very interesting considering his continued involvement in rugby since the 70s.

[Pete330v2]

Second week in a row that O'Reilly has had a pop at Ulster, last week it was Ulster's failure to develop a scrum half.

Did he mention that we have a production line for centres or that we have developed some front row prospects. Each province cannot simply produce quality players of acceptable quality in every position. We need a few classy imports to fill the gaps, something that may be harder to do in the years to come after the IRFU treated Pienaar in the manner they did. Ulster may not have had many indigenous players in the pack this weekend but we'd have had more if the IRFU weren't holding players back from playing after the SA tour
The thing is, on any other given night in the middle of the season with an empty injury list we could field a much more indigenous pack if that really tickles some meaningless journo's fancy.

[Golden]

Niall Morris has been forced to retire due to his ankle injury.

Very unfortunate for him but how was he able to get through the medical before signing for Leinster?

http://www.the42.ie/leinster-niall-morris-retire-injury-2984317-Sep2016/

[Sin é]

Second week in a row that O'Reilly has had a pop at Ulster, last week it was Ulster's failure to develop a scrum half.

What's his beef?

You must agree with him, whatever point he's trying to make, otherwise you wouldn't have posted the link.

I must do no such thing. I posted the link in case anyone wanted to read it.

So, what point are you making?

I replied to your comment with the comment that if you have a top class scrumhalf like Pienaar in his prime, its highly unlikely that you will get an Irish qualified player to move there. For instance, its highly unlikely that Marmion would come to Munster with Murray in residence.

Maybe you were having a dig at so many forwards Irish qualified through residency? If so, I'm sure you have a real issue with the hypocrisy of the IRFU's succession policy in packing the Irish squad with so many player qualified through residency, or those who happen to have an Irish granny. On the one hand the IRFU force Pienaar out with the excuse of blocking indigenous talent, on the other hand they are more than happy to block "indigenous talent" when shipping in foreign players for the Ireland squad.

Did you know Sam Arnold is English born?

I'll admit I don't want a team that is full of players who have qualified to play for Ireland through residency. I have absolutely no problem with players like Marmion or Bent who have qualified to play for Ireland through heritage.

This is the second or third time you cite Marmion as evidence of Pienaar blocking indigenous talent. Marmion was born in England, raised in Wales, to Irish parents. Hardly indigenous. You have zero evidence that Marmion would have come to Ulster, if given the chance. If Marmion had come to Ulster he wouldn't have been blocked by Pienaar, but would have competed with Marshall as Pienaars understudy.

Starting scrumhalf is position specific (like Prop, hooker & outhalf) and unlike for example, 2nd row, where there is more than one starting position. I mention Marmion because he is a scrumhalf like Pienaar. Marmion wouldn't have gone to Ulster because he knows he would never be starting scrumhalf with Pienaar there. Boss left Ulster because he didn't want to play second fiddle to Pienaar but knew he could compete with Reddan for a starting position at Leinster.

If Lloyd is a genuine prospect for Ulster he will be without a world class mentor, in Ruan Pienaar. Something that would have been a great benefit to Ulster and the IRFU.

As I said; the IRFU's succession policy is a joke.

Lloyd will probably hang around now that he knows that Pienaar is getting on a bit and is leaving. 4 years ago he might not have been content to sit on the bench for a couple of years.

Oh right. You just included the link in your response to me 'in case someone wanted to read it'. You're such a spoofer, Sin é

So you reckon Ulster should drop a world class scrum half on the chance that an English born Exile might come good? Marmion must have a really high opinion of himself if he thinks he's too good to learn at the feet of a world class talent. Maybe he should be ahead of Murray already?
The biggest benefit of bringing in world class talent is that they pass on their skills to those they mentor........

So you're happy with players qualifying on residency and the plastic paddy's. That's fair enough, but I'm sure you see the hypocrisy of the IRFU in claiming that Pienaar blocks indigenous talent (he doesn't), while they themselves do the very same by filling the squad with players who either have an Irish granny, or have qualified on residency?

You don't know if Marmion would have turned down Ulster because Pienaar is here. Marmion has talent, but not exactly the finished article, and shouldn't think he should be starting for any of the top teams. If Marmion had have come to Ulster and had been mentored by Pienaar, he might just be pushing for more Ireland starts. Settling for a bottom table side 'because he fears the competition' shows a lack of ambition. That's if I believed you, which I don't    That's a very weak argument anyway, Sin é. If that was true then we would have an exile - Marmion, blocking players who were born and raised here, according to your thinking.

Lloyd can hang around as long as Ulster Rugby want him, but his best chance to learn from the best has been robbed of him by the IRFU.

You are protesting too much on this one.

1. I usually try to provide a link to anything I reference in a newspaper. Sunday Times is subscription so I couldn't quote the full article.
2. I think the IRFU are only concerned that the Ulster scrumhalf is Ireland qualified. As well as that, it would be good for Ireland if Paddy Jackson was playing alongside an IQ scrumhalf.
3. I've only mentioned Marmion because he is an obvious up and coming scrumhalf. He has benefitted from being the starting scrumhalf for Connacht (rather than bench warming elsewhere) - sort of like Jackson has benefitted from being the starting outhalf for Ulster rather than watching Sexton at Leinster (which has encouraged Madigan to move to have a chance to be starting outhalf for a team).
4. I've said it is understabable that Ulster would want to keep Pienaar as Jackson was only developing. But maybe he should have moved on at this stage, bearing in mind that say unlike Payne, he can play in more than one position and Ulster has been able to develop several backs as they can be accommodated if they are good enough anywhere.
5. How many times do I have to repeat that I welcome players who come here because of their heritage (like Marmion). I'm not so crazy about the Stander, Payne, Strauss way of attaining eligibility to play for Ireland.
6. Not sure what your point is about Lloyd hanging around Ulster.

[Pete330v2]

"2. I think the IRFU are only concerned that the Ulster scrumhalf is Ireland qualified. As well as that, it would be good for Ireland if Paddy Jackson was playing alongside an IQ scrumhalf."

Oh he will be next year, Paul Marshall. Brilliant

[Sin é]

"2. I think the IRFU are only concerned that the Ulster scrumhalf is Ireland qualified. As well as that, it would be good for Ireland if Paddy Jackson was playing alongside an IQ scrumhalf."

Oh he will be next year, Paul Marshall. Brilliant

Lloyd got a trial at Munster as well. If I was in his position with offers from both Munster & Ulster, I'd go to the one where i'd have some chance of being the starting SH and (2) be partner to an Irish international outhalf.

[Guest]

Second week in a row that O'Reilly has had a pop at Ulster, last week it was Ulster's failure to develop a scrum half.

What's his beef?

You must agree with him, whatever point he's trying to make, otherwise you wouldn't have posted the link.

I must do no such thing. I posted the link in case anyone wanted to read it.

So, what point are you making?

I replied to your comment with the comment that if you have a top class scrumhalf like Pienaar in his prime, its highly unlikely that you will get an Irish qualified player to move there. For instance, its highly unlikely that Marmion would come to Munster with Murray in residence.

Maybe you were having a dig at so many forwards Irish qualified through residency? If so, I'm sure you have a real issue with the hypocrisy of the IRFU's succession policy in packing the Irish squad with so many player qualified through residency, or those who happen to have an Irish granny. On the one hand the IRFU force Pienaar out with the excuse of blocking indigenous talent, on the other hand they are more than happy to block "indigenous talent" when shipping in foreign players for the Ireland squad.

Did you know Sam Arnold is English born?

I'll admit I don't want a team that is full of players who have qualified to play for Ireland through residency. I have absolutely no problem with players like Marmion or Bent who have qualified to play for Ireland through heritage.

This is the second or third time you cite Marmion as evidence of Pienaar blocking indigenous talent. Marmion was born in England, raised in Wales, to Irish parents. Hardly indigenous. You have zero evidence that Marmion would have come to Ulster, if given the chance. If Marmion had come to Ulster he wouldn't have been blocked by Pienaar, but would have competed with Marshall as Pienaars understudy.

Starting scrumhalf is position specific (like Prop, hooker & outhalf) and unlike for example, 2nd row, where there is more than one starting position. I mention Marmion because he is a scrumhalf like Pienaar. Marmion wouldn't have gone to Ulster because he knows he would never be starting scrumhalf with Pienaar there. Boss left Ulster because he didn't want to play second fiddle to Pienaar but knew he could compete with Reddan for a starting position at Leinster.

If Lloyd is a genuine prospect for Ulster he will be without a world class mentor, in Ruan Pienaar. Something that would have been a great benefit to Ulster and the IRFU.

As I said; the IRFU's succession policy is a joke.

Lloyd will probably hang around now that he knows that Pienaar is getting on a bit and is leaving. 4 years ago he might not have been content to sit on the bench for a couple of years.

Oh right. You just included the link in your response to me 'in case someone wanted to read it'. You're such a spoofer, Sin é

So you reckon Ulster should drop a world class scrum half on the chance that an English born Exile might come good? Marmion must have a really high opinion of himself if he thinks he's too good to learn at the feet of a world class talent. Maybe he should be ahead of Murray already?
The biggest benefit of bringing in world class talent is that they pass on their skills to those they mentor........

So you're happy with players qualifying on residency and the plastic paddy's. That's fair enough, but I'm sure you see the hypocrisy of the IRFU in claiming that Pienaar blocks indigenous talent (he doesn't), while they themselves do the very same by filling the squad with players who either have an Irish granny, or have qualified on residency?

You don't know if Marmion would have turned down Ulster because Pienaar is here. Marmion has talent, but not exactly the finished article, and shouldn't think he should be starting for any of the top teams. If Marmion had have come to Ulster and had been mentored by Pienaar, he might just be pushing for more Ireland starts. Settling for a bottom table side 'because he fears the competition' shows a lack of ambition. That's if I believed you, which I don't    That's a very weak argument anyway, Sin é. If that was true then we would have an exile - Marmion, blocking players who were born and raised here, according to your thinking.

Lloyd can hang around as long as Ulster Rugby want him, but his best chance to learn from the best has been robbed of him by the IRFU.

You are protesting too much on this one.

1. I usually try to provide a link to anything I reference in a newspaper. Sunday Times is subscription so I couldn't quote the full article.
2. I think the IRFU are only concerned that the Ulster scrumhalf is Ireland qualified. As well as that, it would be good for Ireland if Paddy Jackson was playing alongside an IQ scrumhalf.
3. I've only mentioned Marmion because he is an obvious up and coming scrumhalf. He has benefitted from being the starting scrumhalf for Connacht (rather than bench warming elsewhere) - sort of like Jackson has benefitted from being the starting outhalf for Ulster rather than watching Sexton at Leinster (which has encouraged Madigan to move to have a chance to be starting outhalf for a team).
4. I've said it is understabable that Ulster would want to keep Pienaar as Jackson was only developing. But maybe he should have moved on at this stage, bearing in mind that say unlike Payne, he can play in more than one position and Ulster has been able to develop several backs as they can be accommodated if they are good enough anywhere.
5. How many times do I have to repeat that I welcome players who come here because of their heritage (like Marmion). I'm not so crazy about the Stander, Payne, Strauss way of attaining eligibility to play for Ireland.
6. Not sure what your point is about Lloyd hanging around Ulster.

Like the lady? I'm just countering your shaky defence.

1) Yeah, sure...

2) It would be great if Jackson had an Irish qualified international standard scrumhalf alongside him. The harsh reality is that, bar Munster, none of the Provinces have produced a scrumhalf of that standard.

Jackson has benefited greatly from the mentoring Pienaar provides, as have other backs.

So what Irish qualified international standard have the IRFU in mind for Jackson to play alongside? Marshall? He was never that standard and is 31 years old. Who else? Lloyd? Lloyd is 23, and has failed to break through into any of the other Provinces. He has shown a little promise though, and Pienaar would have been the best possible mentor for him. The IRFU have robbed him of that chance. Self-defeating IRFU blunder.

3) Marmion has promise, and if he wasn't willing to learn his trade under Pienaar then Connacht was the right fit for him. If he had have come to Ulster I have to think he would be further on in his progression.

Madigan? Who was it that kept Madigan out? And where did Gopperth go?

4) You should watch more Ulster rugby, or at least the Ireland games in South Africa. If you had you would know that Jackson 'moved on' 2 or 3 seasons ago. It isn't all about Jackson though. Pienaar has also helped develop the other backs, as well his obvious worth on the field of play, in the absence of any viable alternative.

Since you bring Payne into the mix; Payne is our best FB, and so because the IRFU have him playing centre they allowed us Piatau. So even though Ireland aren't blessed with FB talent they allow Piutau to 'block indigenous talent' because it suits them. It will be interesting if Ireland switch Payne to FB .....

5) And you're missing the point. Deliberately? The point is the screaming hypocrisy of the IRFU in packing the Ireland squad with players qualified on residency, or an Irish granny, while claiming the reason they are forcing Pienaar out is because he blocks the path of indigenous talent. His presence at Ulster doesn't, but their own policy for the Ireland squad does.

6) It wasn't my point about Lloyd 'hanging around Ulster'. That was your point which I countered, and if you don't understand that Lloyd would better benefit from Pienaar remaining in Ulster, then I would fear for your logic. You do understand though.

[wolfball]

Second week in a row that O'Reilly has had a pop at Ulster, last week it was Ulster's failure to develop a scrum half.

What's his beef?

You must agree with him, whatever point he's trying to make, otherwise you wouldn't have posted the link.

I must do no such thing. I posted the link in case anyone wanted to read it.

So, what point are you making?

I replied to your comment with the comment that if you have a top class scrumhalf like Pienaar in his prime, its highly unlikely that you will get an Irish qualified player to move there. For instance, its highly unlikely that Marmion would come to Munster with Murray in residence.

Maybe you were having a dig at so many forwards Irish qualified through residency? If so, I'm sure you have a real issue with the hypocrisy of the IRFU's succession policy in packing the Irish squad with so many player qualified through residency, or those who happen to have an Irish granny. On the one hand the IRFU force Pienaar out with the excuse of blocking indigenous talent, on the other hand they are more than happy to block "indigenous talent" when shipping in foreign players for the Ireland squad.

Did you know Sam Arnold is English born?

I'll admit I don't want a team that is full of players who have qualified to play for Ireland through residency. I have absolutely no problem with players like Marmion or Bent who have qualified to play for Ireland through heritage.

This is the second or third time you cite Marmion as evidence of Pienaar blocking indigenous talent. Marmion was born in England, raised in Wales, to Irish parents. Hardly indigenous. You have zero evidence that Marmion would have come to Ulster, if given the chance. If Marmion had come to Ulster he wouldn't have been blocked by Pienaar, but would have competed with Marshall as Pienaars understudy.

Starting scrumhalf is position specific (like Prop, hooker & outhalf) and unlike for example, 2nd row, where there is more than one starting position. I mention Marmion because he is a scrumhalf like Pienaar. Marmion wouldn't have gone to Ulster because he knows he would never be starting scrumhalf with Pienaar there. Boss left Ulster because he didn't want to play second fiddle to Pienaar but knew he could compete with Reddan for a starting position at Leinster.

If Lloyd is a genuine prospect for Ulster he will be without a world class mentor, in Ruan Pienaar. Something that would have been a great benefit to Ulster and the IRFU.

As I said; the IRFU's succession policy is a joke.

Lloyd will probably hang around now that he knows that Pienaar is getting on a bit and is leaving. 4 years ago he might not have been content to sit on the bench for a couple of years.

Oh right. You just included the link in your response to me 'in case someone wanted to read it'. You're such a spoofer, Sin é

So you reckon Ulster should drop a world class scrum half on the chance that an English born Exile might come good? Marmion must have a really high opinion of himself if he thinks he's too good to learn at the feet of a world class talent. Maybe he should be ahead of Murray already?
The biggest benefit of bringing in world class talent is that they pass on their skills to those they mentor........

So you're happy with players qualifying on residency and the plastic paddy's. That's fair enough, but I'm sure you see the hypocrisy of the IRFU in claiming that Pienaar blocks indigenous talent (he doesn't), while they themselves do the very same by filling the squad with players who either have an Irish granny, or have qualified on residency?

You don't know if Marmion would have turned down Ulster because Pienaar is here. Marmion has talent, but not exactly the finished article, and shouldn't think he should be starting for any of the top teams. If Marmion had have come to Ulster and had been mentored by Pienaar, he might just be pushing for more Ireland starts. Settling for a bottom table side 'because he fears the competition' shows a lack of ambition. That's if I believed you, which I don't    That's a very weak argument anyway, Sin é. If that was true then we would have an exile - Marmion, blocking players who were born and raised here, according to your thinking.

Lloyd can hang around as long as Ulster Rugby want him, but his best chance to learn from the best has been robbed of him by the IRFU.

Despite Connacht's very poor start this season, the have more silverware than ulster in the recent past and its a pretty shyte comment to talk of the current champions as a bottom table side with Marmion's presence at Connacht supposedly showing a lack of his ambition. Marmion learns more as the starting scrumhalf in a championship winning team than as the understudy to Piennar and if Marmion played for any irish province other than Connacht, I don't think you would dream to suggest otherwise.

[Guest]

Second week in a row that O'Reilly has had a pop at Ulster, last week it was Ulster's failure to develop a scrum half.

What's his beef?

You must agree with him, whatever point he's trying to make, otherwise you wouldn't have posted the link.

I must do no such thing. I posted the link in case anyone wanted to read it.

So, what point are you making?

I replied to your comment with the comment that if you have a top class scrumhalf like Pienaar in his prime, its highly unlikely that you will get an Irish qualified player to move there. For instance, its highly unlikely that Marmion would come to Munster with Murray in residence.

Maybe you were having a dig at so many forwards Irish qualified through residency? If so, I'm sure you have a real issue with the hypocrisy of the IRFU's succession policy in packing the Irish squad with so many player qualified through residency, or those who happen to have an Irish granny. On the one hand the IRFU force Pienaar out with the excuse of blocking indigenous talent, on the other hand they are more than happy to block "indigenous talent" when shipping in foreign players for the Ireland squad.

Did you know Sam Arnold is English born?

I'll admit I don't want a team that is full of players who have qualified to play for Ireland through residency. I have absolutely no problem with players like Marmion or Bent who have qualified to play for Ireland through heritage.

This is the second or third time you cite Marmion as evidence of Pienaar blocking indigenous talent. Marmion was born in England, raised in Wales, to Irish parents. Hardly indigenous. You have zero evidence that Marmion would have come to Ulster, if given the chance. If Marmion had come to Ulster he wouldn't have been blocked by Pienaar, but would have competed with Marshall as Pienaars understudy.

Starting scrumhalf is position specific (like Prop, hooker & outhalf) and unlike for example, 2nd row, where there is more than one starting position. I mention Marmion because he is a scrumhalf like Pienaar. Marmion wouldn't have gone to Ulster because he knows he would never be starting scrumhalf with Pienaar there. Boss left Ulster because he didn't want to play second fiddle to Pienaar but knew he could compete with Reddan for a starting position at Leinster.

If Lloyd is a genuine prospect for Ulster he will be without a world class mentor, in Ruan Pienaar. Something that would have been a great benefit to Ulster and the IRFU.

As I said; the IRFU's succession policy is a joke.

Lloyd will probably hang around now that he knows that Pienaar is getting on a bit and is leaving. 4 years ago he might not have been content to sit on the bench for a couple of years.

Oh right. You just included the link in your response to me 'in case someone wanted to read it'. You're such a spoofer, Sin é

So you reckon Ulster should drop a world class scrum half on the chance that an English born Exile might come good? Marmion must have a really high opinion of himself if he thinks he's too good to learn at the feet of a world class talent. Maybe he should be ahead of Murray already?
The biggest benefit of bringing in world class talent is that they pass on their skills to those they mentor........

So you're happy with players qualifying on residency and the plastic paddy's. That's fair enough, but I'm sure you see the hypocrisy of the IRFU in claiming that Pienaar blocks indigenous talent (he doesn't), while they themselves do the very same by filling the squad with players who either have an Irish granny, or have qualified on residency?

You don't know if Marmion would have turned down Ulster because Pienaar is here. Marmion has talent, but not exactly the finished article, and shouldn't think he should be starting for any of the top teams. If Marmion had have come to Ulster and had been mentored by Pienaar, he might just be pushing for more Ireland starts. Settling for a bottom table side 'because he fears the competition' shows a lack of ambition. That's if I believed you, which I don't    That's a very weak argument anyway, Sin é. If that was true then we would have an exile - Marmion, blocking players who were born and raised here, according to your thinking.

Lloyd can hang around as long as Ulster Rugby want him, but his best chance to learn from the best has been robbed of him by the IRFU.

Despite Connacht's very poor start this season, the have more silverware than ulster in the recent past and its a pretty shyte comment to talk of the current champions as a bottom table side with Marmion's presence at Connacht supposedly showing a lack of his ambition. Marmion learns more as the starting scrumhalf in a championship winning team than as the understudy to Piennar and if Marmion played for any irish province other than Connacht, I don't think you would dream to suggest otherwise.

Maybe you want to read through all the comments again before jabbering.

Was Connacht a champion side when Marmion joined? Was it even close? No.

It was Sin e saying that Marmion could have joined Ulster, not me.

I think Marmion is proving himself to be a very good player, although if he had have joined Ulster I have no doubt that he would have learned more from Pienaar, than he has with Connacht.

I'm glad he joined Connacht because he did his bit in helping the team towards becoming PRO12 champions.

I wasn't attacking Marmion, or Connacht, you numpty.

[Notch]

Yeah, look everyone needs to calm down but it's a bit of a bizarre argument. I don't think anyone was predicting Connacht to achieve what they have achieved back when Marmion signed with them. In the three seasons before he signed they had finished 10th, 9th and 8th. If Marmion thought he was joining a future champion side he should have put a few quid on it.

In some theoretical timeline where Ulster signed Marmion he would have replied Paul Marshall who has played quite a lot of rugby in the last number of years. However, he would have struggled to start the really big games and it would have held him back. So its good he signed for Connacht- but the thing is, there was only one Marmion. However had he signed for someone else Connacht wouldn't have a good Irish 9.

The thing is, the issue fans have with the way Pienaar has been handled isn't about blocking Irish players- it's very obvious he hasn't, as a succession of mediocre Irish scrum halves have been signed and failed to dislodge Paul Marshall as second choice and there have been no viable Academy prospects- its because he is an Ulsterman. Ulster is his home. It is his families home. He has put his heart and soul into Ulster, and he will almost certainly return to coach here and settle here long term. For him to be treated this way, is shameful in my view. It makes me feel ashamed to be an Ireland fan to a certain extent. Nacewa wasn't treated any better. The fact that Pienaar hasn't really prevented the development of any young Academy prospects or potential internationals and there are absolutely no viable Irish candidates to replace him for next season is the insult on top of the injury.

Maybe its time to give the provinces more autonomy if the Union can't find anyone up to the job of creating a succession plan. We lost Sexton for two years due to playing silly buggers with contracts, we lost Moore for the same reason, we haven't been able to get players to move around the provinces to plug problem positions. From the Unions point of view, surely the logical thing to do was to give Pienaar a contract up to the point when James Hart is out of contract and try and sign him as a replacement. It doesn't look like he's going anywhere whatsoever though, having just moved to Racing 92. The other logical thing to do, strictly from the Unions point of view I stress, would be to try to encourage Marmion to move to Ulster to replace Pienaar so we could have the future Irish halfback partnership playing together week in and out- or Jackson to Connacht! But neither player will likely move. Given there is no quality Irish player available to sign to replace him and no quality player behind him chomping at the bit for more game time, it begins to look a bit bizarre. Either Ulster sign another, younger foreign scrum-half or we're looking at trying to encourage someone like John Cooney, Duncan Williams or Tomas O'Leary to move to Ulster and understudy Paul Marshall. Seems like the Union getting involved to say they're doing something while ignoring the fact that what they're doing is pointless and counter-productive.

Have the IRFU now thrown in the towel with regards to the provinces competing in the European Cup? We cannot compete with the English and French under these circumstances. That is another myopic decision.

[Guest]

Yeah, look everyone needs to calm down but it's a bit of a bizarre argument. I don't think anyone was predicting Connacht to achieve what they have achieved back when Marmion signed with them. In the three seasons before he signed they had finished 10th, 9th and 8th. If Marmion thought he was joining a future champion side he should have put a few quid on it.

In some theoretical timeline where Ulster signed Marmion he would have replied Paul Marshall who has played quite a lot of rugby in the last number of years. However, he would have struggled to start the really big games and it would have held him back. So its good he signed for Connacht- but the thing is, there was only one Marmion. However had he signed for someone else Connacht wouldn't have a good Irish 9.

The thing is, the issue fans have with the way Pienaar has been handled isn't about blocking Irish players- it's very obvious he hasn't, as a succession of mediocre Irish scrum halves have been signed and failed to dislodge Paul Marshall as second choice and there have been no viable Academy prospects- its because he is an Ulsterman. Ulster is his home. It is his families home. He has put his heart and soul into Ulster, and he will almost certainly return to coach here and settle here long term. For him to be treated this way, is shameful in my view. It makes me feel ashamed to be an Ireland fan to a certain extent. Nacewa wasn't treated any better. The fact that Pienaar hasn't really prevented the development of any young Academy prospects or potential internationals and there are absolutely no viable Irish candidates to replace him for next season is the insult on top of the injury.

Maybe its time to give the provinces more autonomy if the Union can't find anyone up to the job of creating a succession plan. We lost Sexton for two years due to playing silly buggers with contracts, we lost Moore for the same reason, we haven't been able to get players to move around the provinces to plug problem positions. From the Unions point of view, surely the logical thing to do was to give Pienaar a contract up to the point when James Hart is out of contract and try and sign him as a replacement. It doesn't look like he's going anywhere whatsoever though, having just moved to Racing 92. The other logical thing to do, strictly from the Unions point of view I stress, would be to try to encourage Marmion to move to Ulster to replace Pienaar so we could have the future Irish halfback partnership playing together week in and out- or Jackson to Connacht! But neither player will likely move. Given there is no quality Irish player available to sign to replace him and no quality player behind him chomping at the bit for more game time, it begins to look a bit bizarre. Either Ulster sign another, younger foreign scrum-half or we're looking at trying to encourage someone like John Cooney, Duncan Williams or Tomas O'Leary to move to Ulster and understudy Paul Marshall. Seems like the Union getting involved to say they're doing something while ignoring the fact that what they're doing is pointless and counter-productive.

Have the IRFU now thrown in the towel with regards to the provinces competing in the European Cup? We cannot compete with the English and French under these circumstances. That is another myopic decision.

Good points well made.

I was only returning fire

The way the IRFU are forcing Pienaar out leaves me with a sense that they are throwing in the towel, but it doesn't make sense whatever way you look at it. If the IRFU are prepared to stick rigidly to a failing succession plan it will hurt the Provinces, and the IRFU, in the long term. The Provinces will be less competitive, earn less competition money, and home-grown players will be more tempted to take the big money abroad.

[wolfball]

Yeah, look everyone needs to calm down but it's a bit of a bizarre argument. I don't think anyone was predicting Connacht to achieve what they have achieved back when Marmion signed with them. In the three seasons before he signed they had finished 10th, 9th and 8th. If Marmion thought he was joining a future champion side he should have put a few quid on it.

In some theoretical timeline where Ulster signed Marmion he would have replied Paul Marshall who has played quite a lot of rugby in the last number of years. However, he would have struggled to start the really big games and it would have held him back. So its good he signed for Connacht- but the thing is, there was only one Marmion. However had he signed for someone else Connacht wouldn't have a good Irish 9.

The thing is, the issue fans have with the way Pienaar has been handled isn't about blocking Irish players- it's very obvious he hasn't, as a succession of mediocre Irish scrum halves have been signed and failed to dislodge Paul Marshall as second choice and there have been no viable Academy prospects- its because he is an Ulsterman. Ulster is his home. It is his families home. He has put his heart and soul into Ulster, and he will almost certainly return to coach here and settle here long term. For him to be treated this way, is shameful in my view. It makes me feel ashamed to be an Ireland fan to a certain extent. Nacewa wasn't treated any better. The fact that Pienaar hasn't really prevented the development of any young Academy prospects or potential internationals and there are absolutely no viable Irish candidates to replace him for next season is the insult on top of the injury.

Maybe its time to give the provinces more autonomy if the Union can't find anyone up to the job of creating a succession plan. We lost Sexton for two years due to playing silly buggers with contracts, we lost Moore for the same reason, we haven't been able to get players to move around the provinces to plug problem positions. From the Unions point of view, surely the logical thing to do was to give Pienaar a contract up to the point when James Hart is out of contract and try and sign him as a replacement. It doesn't look like he's going anywhere whatsoever though, having just moved to Racing 92. The other logical thing to do, strictly from the Unions point of view I stress, would be to try to encourage Marmion to move to Ulster to replace Pienaar so we could have the future Irish halfback partnership playing together week in and out- or Jackson to Connacht! But neither player will likely move. Given there is no quality Irish player available to sign to replace him and no quality player behind him chomping at the bit for more game time, it begins to look a bit bizarre. Either Ulster sign another, younger foreign scrum-half or we're looking at trying to encourage someone like John Cooney, Duncan Williams or Tomas O'Leary to move to Ulster and understudy Paul Marshall. Seems like the Union getting involved to say they're doing something while ignoring the fact that what they're doing is pointless and counter-productive.

Have the IRFU now thrown in the towel with regards to the provinces competing in the European Cup? We cannot compete with the English and French under these circumstances. That is another myopic decision.

Good points well made.

I was only returning fire

The way the IRFU are forcing Pienaar out leaves me with a sense that they are throwing in the towel, but it doesn't make sense whatever way you look at it. If the IRFU are prepared to stick rigidly to a failing succession plan it will hurt the Provinces, and the IRFU, in the long term. The Provinces will be less competitive, earn less competition money, and players will be more tempted to take the big money abroad.

Peace reigns

We are in agreement on the general point Re IRFU fupping a number of things around succession/signings up, though the gut emotions of Ulster fans regarding the recent Piennar decision seem overboard to me, I'm hardly innocent of wild emotional outbursts as per my comment above

[Guest]

We can all be guilty of the occasional emotional outburst when it comes to our Province

I can understand how it may seem overboard to some, but when considering the alternatives left for Ulster once Pienaar goes, and the fact that Pienaar is very much an Ulsterman, it's understandable. If it made sense for the IRFU to force Pienaar out then there wouldn't be the same reaction. It just doesn't make sense on any level though. In fact it's counter productive to the Province and the IRFU.

The IRFU succession policy is a great ideal, but in practice it is a failing.

[SecretFly]

I hears you Munch...but perhaps the 'in practice' bit is failing because when the chips are down, the fans would prefer if the succession policy remained a 'great ideal' and nothing more?

Pienaar is an Ulsterman but can never play for Ireland, and the idea of the succession policy is to ensure 'prospective' Irish players of the future have indeed the opportunities to prove worth and the opportunity to develop into players with potential.  Being on the fringes (outside the Provincial teams) or eternally on a bench, doesn't exactly make sense in the grand scheme of things. They can never prove that they are capable of growing and improving as players in these central positions if not given the genuine sustained playing time to prove or disprove it.

That's the theory and I have to say I back it 100%.  

In practice though, Pienaar sounds like a lovely man who loves where he is and feels a sense of belonging (like Isa in Leinster) - and you don't want to be coldly hurting the feelings of these great Provincial heros that have given so much delight to fans over the years.  We fans don't like cold, aloof pragmatism thrown at our heros from head IRFU office.

In short, it's a shame emotional attachment always comes into these arguments and it's a bleeding shame we Irish are so bloody emotionally driven as a people  - so f**K off IRFU and leave Pienaar alone!!!!

[Pete330v2]

"In short, it's a shame emotional attachment always comes into these arguments and it's a bleeding shame we Irish are so bloody emotionally driven as a people mad  - so f**K off IRFU and leave Pienaar alone!!!!"

I do like your finishing comment Fly
The thing for me on the whole subject is not just the emotional aspect, the emotions are there but even they are overshadowed by how severely illogical the IRFU are being. Remove a player who is blocking progression of course and keep the policy on NIQ's running smoothly of course. However, to remove a player who forms the spine of team who will be much poorer because of if is ridiculous. To weaken a province by removing a player such as Ruan who is definitely not blocking anyone's progression is brainless in the extreme. Certain boxes have not been ticked therefore he must go. We play under enough of a handicap compared to club sides from other countries and now it seems, the IRFU want to make it worse.

[Guest]

Good to see you back, Fly

I can't speak for all fans, even if I do try at times, but I would like to see the succession policy work. Like yourself I'm 100% behind the theory of it, but not the application.

The IRFU's excuse for forcing Pienaar out is just that - an excuse. Pienaar has not blocked the path of players coming through. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest he has. If there were genuine prospects they wouldn't be challenging Pienaar, but Marshall. That has never happened and it's not for want of effort on the part of Ulster Rugby.

Pienaar is a world class talent who has added great value to Ulster Rugby on and off the pitch. He acts as mentor for the backs. That is a huge benefit to Ulster Rugby and to the Ireland squad.

What does Ulster, or the IRFU, gain with forcing Pienaar out? Nothing. There is zero benefit to losing Pienaar.

What does Ulster and the IRFU lose in forcing Pienaar out? Well, Ulster Rugby lose a world class player on the field. Ulster Rugby and the IRFU lose a great mentor for the backs who play for Province and Ireland, as well as those bright prospects who may one day play for Ireland. Ulster Rugby will not be as competitive without a suitable replacement for Pienaar, and we may lose competition money as a result. This application of the succession policy may act as a deterrent for future signings to all Provinces, denying us the chance to compete at the top level, and denying the opportunity for Provinces to learn new skills.

What has Nucifora done for rugby in Ireland? Madigan? Moore?

So, all the above can be said without emotional attachment. Just a cold reasoning. There is an emotional side to this, of course.
Pienaar has proven his loyalty to the Province, and then some. Because of that loyalty, because he's a world class talent that has been sought by the big money clubs and turned them down to remain with us, we feel a strong bond to the man. He is a player who has bought into Ulster completely. He, and his family, consider themselves Ulster folk now, and consider Ulster their home. They love the people and the culture, and want to stay. This more than anything else helped forge the bond as strong as it is between Pienaar and the supporters.

For us, losing Pienaar is like losing a BOD for Leinster, or a POC for Munster. How would the supporters of those Provinces feel if the IRFU were to force their own legends out, and for no good reason?

[Pete330v2]

Before anyone follows this with "but BOD and POC are Irish" then you're missing the point

[SecretFly]

For us, losing Pienaar is like losing a BOD for Leinster, or a POC for Munster. How would the supporters of those Provinces feel if the IRFU were to force their own legends out, and for no good reason?

I actually have always felt more emotionally attached to a handful of 'foreign' players that have come into the system over the years and showed not only ability (that you'd expect given their fees) but also a real emotional commitment.
The Irish guys are being pragmatic a lot of the time - they hang in there (stay in Ireland at Provinces) because they have been treated well in terms of not being flogged to death by the IRFU system, getting reasonably enough competitive money (at least up until a few years ago) and they kept themselves in line for Irish positions. So whilst I've enjoyed the commitment to the cause of Irish/Provincial players, I've always had an extra regard for players like Isa, Warwick, Howlett, Stander, Contepomi, Ruan, Hines.
Day tripping Mercenaries like Elsom and Thorn, less so

So Munch, I repeat the final line of my first post in answer to that question. I'd say 'F**k off IRFU, leave our legends alone. They've earned the right to end things their way not to be shipped off with tails between their legs. That is no fair way of saying 'thank you' '.

[Guest]

For us, losing Pienaar is like losing a BOD for Leinster, or a POC for Munster. How would the supporters of those Provinces feel if the IRFU were to force their own legends out, and for no good reason?

I actually have always felt more emotionally attached to a handful of 'foreign' players that have come into the system over the years and showed not only ability (that you'd expect given their fees) but also a real emotional commitment.
The Irish guys are being pragmatic a lot of the time - they hang in there (stay in Ireland at Provinces) because they have been treated well in terms of not being flogged to death by the IRFU system, getting reasonably enough competitive money (at least up until a few years ago) and they kept themselves in line for Irish positions.  So whilst I've enjoyed the commitment to the cause of Irish/Provincial players, I've always had an extra regard for players like Isa, Warwick, Howlett, Stander, Contepomi, Ruan, Hines.
Day tripping Mercenaries like Elsom and Thorn, less so

So Munch, I repeat the final line of my first post in answer to that question.  I'd say 'F**k off IRFU, leave our legends alone.  They've earned the right to end things their way not to be shipped off with tails between their legs.  That is no fair way of saying 'thank you' '.

I know, Fly. I'm not trying to preach to the converted, but maybe hoping if I say it often enough Sin e might believe it. Well, I can hope

[mikey_dragon]

Can't see a Munster thread so i'll say it here. When I watched them against my team they were very strong at the set piece, in the collisions and defence - simple things done well like that can get you far. I'd also say that Kleyn and Ryan is probably your best lock pairing. A lot of the backs are unfamiliar to me so I'm guessing they're all fairly recent graduates.

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