England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

First topic message reminder :

England 1 Alastair Cook (capt), 2 Alex Hales, 3 Joe Root, 4 James Vince, 5 Gary Ballance, 6 Jonny Bairstow (wk), 7 Moeen Ali, 8 Chris Woakes, 9 Stuart Broad, 10 Steven Finn, 11 James Anderson

Pakistan 1 Mohammad Hafeez, 2 Sami Aslam, 3 Azhar Ali, 4 Younis Khan, 5 Misbah-ul-Haq (capt), 6 Asad Shafiq, 7 Sarfraz Ahmed (wk), 8 Yasir Shah, Sohail Khan, 10 Mohammad Amir, 11 Rahat Ali

MOEEN!!!

Nice job everyone. An epic victory snatched from the jaws of defeat.

Great job from the whole team today.

Well done Moeen ...and England.

At least I get a few hours kip...

'Night all

Catch you next time alfie.

Great team performance from the third day onwards. Moeen surely man of the match here, which is an amazing effort from him. We shouldn't forget that 70 from Ballance in the first innings either, getting near 300 proved vital in the end

Well I have to say, in terms of where England were with one ball remaining in day 2, with Pakistan just 40 runs behind with 8 first innings wickets in hand, I think that is one of the best England performances I have seen. To bowl Pakistan out in 70 overs on that flat a pitch was a brilliant effort, with everyone pitching in

Very fine comeback indeed by England there.  

Pakistan themselves will now do very well if they can somehow recover from this dispiriting loss and win the last test of the series.

Well, I didn't see that win coming when I went out at lunchtime. As said above, a wonderful comeback from the England team together with another remarkable performance from Moeen, eh Goose?

This will make the last test very tasty. Pakistan have to throw everything at this now.

Not quite sure this ranks as a great performance, just an adequate one.

Pakistan are not a very good side in these conditions. Their bowling isn't up to much, much as England are keen to surrender their wickets, and their batting (with the exception of a couple of individuals) is comprised of a bunch of pushovers.

England made a very poor start, but eventually had enough class to see it through. They threw away the First Test, they nearly surrendered this one, they must assert their authority in the final one and put Pakistan away by a similar margin to the Second Test.

Anyway, England are 4/6 to win the Fourth Test, which at least means it is print money time once again. I can't see Pakistan recovering in time for the sharp turn-around, the mental scars from this one will be too great, and a number of England players are due a performance.

Wouldn't be relying on mental scars etc...I've long held to a view that "momentum" is a load of rubbish...

England will need to be switched on again at The Oval. This Pakistan team will not just go away , I believe. Fancy England to win , because I think they are the better team ; but they'd be foolish to assume they just have to turn up.

guildfordbat wrote:

Hi Alfie
...
Yes again, if England truly want to become a great team this is the sort of situation they need to learn to come back from. There again, great teams don't get themselves in this sort of pickle too often. In line with my earlier comments, I'll let this Test play out before picking my team for the next one. However, there will need to be a vast improvement for me to go with an unchanged eleven.
...

Hi again Alfie - I posted the above here before play on Friday morning. Since then, fair imo to say there was ''a vast improvement''. Prepared to pick my team now for the Oval Test and inclined to go with an unchanged eleven.

Doubts still remain about Vince but he made something of a contribution here - over 80 match runs, more than Root and Hales, featured in a couple of useful partnerships and effected a valuable run out. That's probably slanted a bit on the charitable side but I'm only talking atm about him retaining his place for the next Test. Feel it would be more harsh and possibly counter productive to England's cause to bin him at this point.

A couple of wickets - that in itself often ticks a short term box for me - for Finn today to also keep his place for the Oval.

Vince might be injured anyways - any update on his finger?

I'd like to see Rashid in for him and move Moeen up the order personally - but anticipate them sticking with an unchanged XI

Sounds harsh - but Vince scoring runs in this last test might not be the best outcome for the upcoming India tour...at the moment the second spinner (whoever that may be) quite obviously will replace him

Hi Olly - it was on cricinfo last night that Vince was expected to be ok and that the same 13 man squad had already been named.

They do try to encourage spin on Oval tracks which helps Rashid's case for inclusion. However, I doubt they'll have done too much with the Test wicket given the threat of Shah.

A very fine win by England. The second-inning opening partnership was the key. Although both openers went early on the 4th day, England were ahead and patience followed by some umpty at the end ensured a good score.
Much rubbish written and said about the declaration. Why risk defeat after such a fightback? Older posters might recall Peter May getting stick for delaying a declaration against the Windies at Edgbaston in 1957. England had been 288 behind on first innings in that one!
Pleased Finn got wickets. Probably be an unchanged England XI at the Oval.

alfie wrote:Wouldn't be relying on mental scars etc...I've long held to a view that "momentum" is a load of rubbish...

England will need to be switched on again at The Oval.  This Pakistan team will not just go away , I believe.  Fancy England to win , because I think they are the better team ; but they'd be foolish to assume they just have to turn up.

Couldn't agree more re momentum. Look at the last Ashes, even this Test where Pakistan were a long way ahead for the first two days after an absolute hammering at Old Trafford.

Where I would be looking for England to have the advantage is fitness, with a quick turnaround between Tests, if England can bat first I think it's going to be very hard for Pakistan bowlers to keep running in

I hope England don't feel they just need to turn up to win now, felt like they were very complacent in the first innings here and it could have cost them the game - 220ao was on the cards at one point

sirfredperry wrote:A very fine win by England. The second-inning opening partnership was the key. Although both openers went early on the 4th day, England were ahead and patience followed by some umpty at the end ensured a good score.
  Much rubbish written and said about the declaration. Why risk defeat after such a fightback? Older posters might recall Peter May getting stick for delaying a declaration against the Windies at Edgbaston in 1957. England had been 288 behind on first innings in that one!
  Pleased Finn got wickets. Probably be an unchanged England XI at the Oval.

Risk defeat? Pakistan would have had about as much chance of successfully chasing down a 250 score on that track, as I do of scoring a Test Hundred.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Vince might be injured anyways - any update on his finger?

I'd like to see Rashid in for him and move Moeen up the order personally - but anticipate them sticking with an unchanged XI

Sounds harsh - but Vince scoring runs in this last test might not be the best outcome for the upcoming India tour...at the moment the second spinner (whoever that may be) quite obviously will replace him

You think? I wouldve thought theyd go with three seamers and two spinners with someone like Finn most likley to miss out ...unless the second spinner is someone like Ansari and more a batting allrounder, but odds on it will be Rashid and Moeen now as you suggest. 6 bowlers plus support from Vince and Root just seems overkill, last time they played most tests with only 4 bowlers and some part time support form Trott and KP.

The difference this time though is no Swann and no Panesar ...really no genuine proven test spinners. Moeen can bat but taking 2 wickets for 128 (and those coming when getting to bowl on the last day at a pressured opposition, although the struggles of Shah do show its wasnt exactly spin friendly) only pushes his average even further the wrong side of 40. Hes into his 3rd year now, and really yet to convince me that hes more than a batting all rounder. To be fair South Africa would snap
Rashid too has a lot prove, his test record to date hasnt been covered in glory and succesive England for all the changes in England leadership he hasnt been trusted which speaks some volumes about how hes viewed.



In terms of the next test I cant see where cahnges would be made. All the "questionable" players had decent games. Hales, Vince, Ballance and Moeen all did something with the bat. Bairstow was tidier with the gloves and also made runs. My concerns about Moeens bowling remain, but with Stokes out I support his inclussion ahead of Rashid whos not exactly a proven class spinenr in his won right. Unless it looks likes an absolute ripper they wont go with two spinners, and as pointed out by someoen else if it is then the test will all be about Englands ability to play Shah not which bowlers they select.
Finn is arguably the vulnerable one, but its not like Ball is knocking the door down and "stop gap because Stokes is injured" isnt the most pressing point of improvement.

Youc an take a half full or half empty approach to this test. On one hadn we are told the sign of a good side is being able to come back from the dead and show some bottle and ability which England did...on the other we get told its a sign of weakness because they got in a pickle in the first place.
Is it a good thing that players under pressure did enough to releive that temporarily...does that show that they are turning a corner / not that bad after all or does it just paper over the cracks and make it harder for England to make tough decisions and changes that would benefit the long term development of the team? I'll post my reply form the benefit of hindsight in 6 months time

All that aside though this is what test cricket should be, and its great to see a touring side turning up. Im a massive fan of Misbah and what hes acheived with this Pakistan side, given what he inherited and then the ICC clamping down on dodgy actions. They are an all rounder (hafeez allowed to bowl) and an on form Younis short of being a very good side on any pitches. Would probably help if Sohail could get himself fit too. Its also easy to forget that when we talk about burn out and the pressures on England cricketers what these guys go for, having to travel away even for their "home" series.
They may have crumbled when they had the chance, and maybe you can question the stragulation tactics or even the risk to bowl first but I still have admiration for this side. At least they are trying.

I think concerns over Moeen the bowler are valid. He won MOTM mainly for his excellent batting, which was fair enough as it was two innings where England were one wicket away from being in trouble both times

The make up of the side seems fine for a home Test, but India will look forward to facing him in India so he will need some good support. I could see Moeen and Rashid playing with Moeen more of a batsman, then an orthodox spinner who can hopefully keep it tight (Ansari?) also in the team

Goose I think they'll go with the six bowler strategy they employed in the UAE last winter in India this winter too (and I think although they didn't win a test in the UAE the strategy worked well)

I'd anticipate there being four seamers (at the moment likely to be Broad, Anderson, Woakes and Stokes) and two spinners (Ali and Rashid likely atm). I think the three seamer, two spinner strategy only works if the two spinners are reliable, otherwise your seamers get overworked. I doubt Vince/Root bowling the odd over is considered tbh (and don't think they should be considered as a 6th bowler option)

I'd anticipate something like this for India

Cook, hales, Root, Ballance/Vince, Ali, Bairstow, Stokes, Rashid, Woakes, Broad, Anderson

You of course have options with the seamers - Finn/Ball are around and Wood is on the comeback trail. Ansari the only other likely spinner at the moment (maybe Borthwick, but he's more a bat nowadays).

Yeah I think Ansari is pretty much a done deal as a toruist in the absence of a proper out and out specialist spinner. England are really blessed to have so many all rounders, it will give them the option of lining up any number of bowler stratergies whilst still retaining real depth to the batting.
I still worry though they they lack anyone with the craft to do what Swann and Panessar did last time.
A "tail" of Bairstow, Stokes, Woakes, Moeen, Ansari, Rashid, Broad would be pretty hilarious.


But yknow..the Oval...apparently theres a game there first.

India are pretty awful players of spin - they struggled against Moeen in rather benign spinning conditions in 2014. He finished with an average of 23 and 19 wickets.

England are going to beat them pretty easily this autumn, and underline their Number 1 in the world status, just like in 2011. Root and Cook will look Ponting-esque.

5 Tests, isn't it? Could be another 4-0 to England.

I think Moeen was bowling much better in 2014. Also India were dreadful, they weren't up for it after the second Test for some reason, after an excellent win

4-0 for England is fantasy stuff, but England could win the series if they bat patiently and bowl some reverse like they did yesterday. I'll go with 2-2 for the series myself