Ryder Cup - European Picks

First topic message reminder :

Rory McIlroy
Danny Willett
Henrik Stenson
Chris Wood
Sergio García
Rafael Cabrera-Bello
Justin Rose
Andy Sullivan
Matthew Fitzpatrick


The above nine have qualified automatically for this year's Ryder Cup, which 3 will join them on the 29th August when Darren Clarke will announce his wildcards?

Robo, maybe he should just drop ET membership for good?

I can see a cycle developing where players from the ET get onto the RC, take up double dipping and fade away. This is what Knox has to be careful of. He is putting together a pretty good PGAT career and I would advise him to focus on that, even if it does mean dropping ET membership and not playing the RC.

It has already happened to

Colseartes
Donaldson
Molinari x2
Hanson
Dubuisson

And we know many others are now struggling to double dip.

GPB wrote:I got to snicker a little at the "detached from the EuroTour"

While it is pretty apparent that the only reason why Knox joined the EuroTour is the Ryder Cup, IMO it is a pretty reasonable argument that the only reason why Rory, Justin, Henrik, Poulter, GMAC are still members of the ET is because of the Ryder Cup.

Rory McIlroy: Travel-weary player considered quitting European Tour

http://www.bbc.com/sport/golf/34453589

IIRC, Paul Casey said that a couple of Euros were envious that he could quit the Euro Tour.

Yeah but there's a difference between being at the party from the beginning and coming late and pull the chicks. The latter is not good for team moral.

robopz wrote:
If I were Knox right now... I'd seriously consider dropping ET membership for next year... and then take it back up for 2018.

Then Knox would be behind the 8-ball in 2018 just like he was this year. He would be 3 months behind in earning Ryder Cup points.

I just don't see the problem with a double-dipping Euro golfer playing 5 non co-sanctioned Euro tournaments. Especially if Pelley wants to designate "special status" to a tournament like he did to the French Open.

I don't know how Rory's deeper involvement with the Irish Open came about. Was it his own doing or at the suggestion/urging of some ET folks. Either way, it was a brilliant way to keep Rory engaged with the ET to a more meaningful extent. And I assume Poulter and Luke's involvement as tournament hosts is much the same gambit. Now Sergio following suit in Spain. Is Kaymer now more involved with the German event?

pedro wrote:A tie probably gives good odds and is not that unlikely.

I got 10-1 the tie

GPB wrote:
And Zach is a player that I rather not see on the US team.  The only reason why he is in the mix is from his win at St Andrews 13.5 months ago.

Zach is the only experienced US player with a positive RC record and his form this year has been reasonable. Plus he has got that hotline to the bearded man upstairs. I'd rather have him on my team than Bubba, Furyk and even Kooch (who seems to do little more than looking goofy and beating the others in ping pong*).

*maybe there's a Gump connection?

P.S: I like Kooch, but want to challenge him as a RC pick.

The latter is not good for team moral.

Hence, my Jon Rahm comments

=======

Re: Zach and his positive individual record. Don't care, he is off form.

And sheesh, still the religious snark? Don't you ever tire of it? Even Bad Comedians come up with new material.

robopz wrote: Is Kaymer now more involved with the German event?

Considering he didn't play in the German event after the US Open, my guess is NO.

GPB... I do see the problem with a Knox even playing 5. With exception of the Scottish Open for him, which is a good preamble to the OPEN anyway... every one of his other ET starts is at the expense of a PGAT start.

Knox is a legitimate contender for the FE Cup this year.... and being top 5 into Eastlake is key. What did skipping PGAT events to play Abu Dhabi, the Irish and BMW cost him in that regard? We'll never know but it could very well be the difference in him being in that top 5 a few weeks from now.

Bottom line is I love that the best Euros choose to play here, but I do so with the understanding that with the exception of the truly remarkable talents... it causes most of them to underperform their potential on both tours. So selfishly... it's good for me as a golf fan living in America... but is it the best thing for them as a group. In way more cases than not, I don't think It is

PS... I realize Knox's Nedbank start wasn't a conflict

Mac... I didn't see your comments before I posted mine, but regarding Knox we probably agree. I'd say the same for guys like Blixt, Laird and of course Casey at this point. Kaymer got bit in the butt too but at least he has a major exemption to fall back on.

With the depth on the PGAT today.... it's just asking too much for most dual tour Euro's to spot the rest of the PGAT's exempt players 5-8 starts and expect to be successful

Robo, If I were Knox, I would make the 2017 non-co-sanctioned starts after the 2018 Ryder Cup qualifying period starts.

Hopefully he would play well enough in the Majors and WGCs to qualify for the RtD and the run up events. And the Dunhill Links in Scotland.

The 2017 Abu Dhabi, Irish & Scottish tournaments would earn him no points towards the 2018 Ryder Cup.

Mac,
When was Eddie Molinari a PGA Tour member?
And: So far Franny's done a decent job of keeping his card, but obviously he needs to return to the owgr Top Fifty.

As for the players you mention, Colsaerts and Hanson (and Casey before the ET gave him a place to play - which he'd earned) stumbled while trying to play thru' injuries, never a good idea on the PGA Tour, and Dubuisson & Donaldson never seemed to take it as anything other than a luxury that was there if they wanted it.

Not sure why you insist on establishing a prejudice, then inventing fairy tales in an abortive effort to prove your point.


Would however agree that some have fallen short, Ross Fisher another who comes to mind; not sure if Gonzo really wanted to double-dip but he has certainly come a cropper. Karlsson another who tried to come back too early from injury.

Spotlight next season will definitely be on Poulter as his time might very well be up.

GPB... sure I can see lots of ways Knox CAN do it... but the situation remains similar somewhere down the line no matter how he does. He's gonna have to pass on PGAT events to get his 5 minimum ET starts, and maybe more to play the R2D.

With the Nedbank moved... his only hole without passing on PGAT events is the two weeks after next year's TC in a President's Cup year.... unless he wants to go to South Africa in December for some low $ co- sanctions.

Kwini

Yes, looks like I made a molinari error. But I wish I could convince you it is not a fairy story that double dipping is going to be almost impossible for most players very soon. As robo said above "it's just asking too much for most dual tour Euro's to spot the rest of the PGAT's exempt players 5-8 starts and expect to be successful", I totally agree with this.

To make double dipping hard all you need is 125 or so full time PGAT guys that are better over 25 PGAT events than the double dippers are over 15 or so.

I actually think it may be counter productive for the PGA Tour to make double-dipping logistically prohibitive - they always will want the superstars of the game to play the Tour.
They wouldn't want all of Rory, Rose, Sergio or Stenson to go the way of Kaymer.

Robo, I realize that the PGATour schedule is almost fully populated. My point is that if Knox wants to be in the Ryder Cup picutre, he is going to have to make some sacrifices. He has got to decide if the reward is worth the risk.

BTW...There is also the off week during the FEX playoffs next year, Sept 7-10.

And I would rate his chances of making the 2017 Tour Championship at less than 30% so he could also schedule that week if his chances are slim.

The whole key to this dual touring deal is 1) qualifying for most if not all of the 8 big co-sanctions and 2) playing very well in at least a few of them, or consistently well in most of them.

So any player who's able to do that... especially those that can earn 3-5 year winners exemptions for WGC's or majors to fall back on.... then full speed ahead.

But one truth still remains... unless you're a truly fantastic player that can dominate in those big events, to play both tours requires you to rob both Peter and Paul. The vast majority who try it will achieve far less on BOTH tours, and have far less probability for snagging those big bonuses at years end. (well at least one of them's big)

I'll be interested to see how Willett does with his PGAT membership this next year. I thought he made the right decision to NOT take PGAT membership at the beginning of this season despite him being eligible. I didn't think he was quite ready. But I thought him correct in taking membership after winning the Masters because his risk was mitigated in case of failure. (even though he coulda waited until the start of the new season to do so).

But for some reason, I just don't like Willett's chances to flourish over here. I can't put my finger on it, just a hunch.

One thing in Willett's favour is the time spent at college over here, Pieters too of course.

Not like the Donaldsons, Dubie's, Fishers, Shanes of this world who had little or no idea of what lay ahead.

The Wrap-Around Season has hurt the Double dippers, since they don't typically play in the Fall series (except for the HSBC).

The Top 125 FEX hurdle used to be around 375 pts. Now it is around 460 points.

Speaking of which, Poulter needs to earn 222 points in his major medical starts. He played 13 events in the 2015-16 season. I think he will get three (possibly 4) starts to earn those points.

kwinigolfer wrote:I actually think it may be counter productive for the PGA Tour to make double-dipping logistically prohibitive - they always will want the superstars of the game to play the Tour.
They wouldn't want all of Rory, Rose, Sergio or Stenson to go the way of Kaymer.

Kwini... I agree it's very much in the interest of the PGAT to attract the world's best to PGAT membership and they know that and want that. And via the advent of there now being 8 big money co-sanctions... it's made the avenues for top world talent all that much easier to get here via STM.

The problem is STAYING here. I don't think it's anything the tour is doing to make it prohibitive... IMO it's just a natural progression of deeper talent on the PGAT making it all that much harder on any guy who's not gonna play a full schedule over here.

If a good Euro player is gonna play 20-22 here against a bunch of other full time PGAT guys playing 25, he's not at that much of a disadvantage, especially if he can pick and choose his own schedule via a high OWGR or priority. But if he comes in trying to the play the 15 minimum... unless he's a fantastic talent, has a ton of experience on regular event courses here already, or has multi-year winner's exemptions in his back pocket... he's a prime candidate for "dead man walking" sooner rather than later.

Fortunately for Willett, he has 5 years to acclimate to the USA.

Unless he gets as c0cky as Kaymer (circa 2015) and think he can coast and play 12 events before the playoffs and coast into the BMW to get in his 15 tournaments. Stenson almost got in the same situation a couple years ago.

GPB.... good point on the wrap around season making it that much harder. I didn't realize the extra FX events raised the bar that much. The added opportunity to earn official points in the single HSBC co sanction isn't anywhere near enough to offset that. I stand corrected on my comments it's nothing the Tour is doing to make it harder on the dual tour guys... because that certainly does.

GPB,
I don't think Kaymer was being cocky, just don't think he much cared - think he marches to his own tune more than one might expect.
Stenson was in trouble a couple of times just trying to get in his events.

If we think guys are interested in going all out every tournament they're required to play we're kidding ourselves, Grace among those following Oosthuizen and Schwartzel in focussing on certain events, very content to go through the motions at others. Don't think that's good for fans or the integrity of the Tour, but plenty do it, and Stenson's first hole w/d a few years ago at the MatchPlay shows that WGC's (and Majors to a lesser extent) leave themselves wide open for such abuse.

Regardless, double-dipping is hard! Really Hard for all but the elite.

I'm surprised at those throwing out the nepotism card re Westwood.
He's not had a terrible year, not markedly worse than Knox, and bearing in mind this is match play and a large part of that is to intimidate / not be intimidated, the extra LW gives you in that regard v Knox surely outweighs the gap in form? I'd say so.
To take things like that into account are why you have captains picks rather than just taking the top 12 qualifiers

IMO, if Kaymer didn't care, he would not have played Wyndham last year as a 11th hour attempt to save his playing privileges.

MustPuttBetter wrote:I'm surprised at those throwing out the nepotism card re Westwood.
He's not had a terrible year, not markedly worse than Knox, and bearing in mind this is match play and a large part of that is to intimidate / not be intimidated, the extra LW gives you in that regard v Knox surely outweighs the gap in form? I'd say so.
To take things like that into account are why you have captains picks rather than just taking the top 12 qualifiers

If Nepotism wasn't a factor, then why not pick Luke? His RC W/L percentage (10-4-1) is better than Westwoods (20-15-6), he has the experience and he has actually won the WGC- Match Play. And Luke actually makes putts once in a while.

GPB wrote:Speaking of which, Poulter needs to earn 222 points in his major medical starts.  He played 13 events in the 2015-16 season.  I think he will get three (possibly 4) starts to earn those points.

GPB... Poulter will probably get something like 12-13 events under a major medical. The major medical rule reads a player gets either the average number of events he played in his past 3 full years... OR... the average number of events played by the top-125 in the season in question.

Poulter averages less than 20... so that's not a factor... so it goes to the average of the top-125 portion of the rule.  So assume that average is 26.. then Poulter get's 26 minus his 13 starts he did make.... or 13 total.  One other portion of that rule is he can not get more major medical starts than  the number of events remaining on the schedule at the time he suffered the "extension event" he was eligible for (Colonial).   By my count that's at least 12 (maybe 13) not counting any playoff events...  and I think they count those too... so he should get the full 13 events on his major medical.

Sheesh, I don't see how anyone could justify that many more events for Poulter. That would be pure exploitation of the system.

there wasn't that many more regular events left in the season. He wasn't eligible for the US Open, and he hasn't played too many regular events after Colonial.

1. Memorial
2. Memphis (2013-14)
3. Quicken Loans
4. Reno
5. Barbasol
6. Canadian
7. PGA (Played every year)
8. Travelers (2011-12-13)
9. Deere
10. Wyndham (2011)

No way should a part-time player (like he has been for the last half dozen years) should get 7 starts more than he normally plays.

Thats a bad loophole.

I imagine Poults did his homework on that before seeing the writing on his form wall and leaving the Tour - he may like to come across as a bit of a wide boy, but he's way smarter than he likes to let on.
But 13 DOES seem generous!

GPB wrote:

MustPuttBetter wrote:I'm surprised at those throwing out the nepotism card re Westwood.
He's not had a terrible year, not markedly worse than Knox, and bearing in mind this is match play and a large part of that is to intimidate / not be intimidated, the extra LW gives you in that regard v Knox surely outweighs the gap in form? I'd say so.
To take things like that into account are why you have captains picks rather than just taking the top 12 qualifiers

If Nepotism wasn't a factor, then why not pick Luke?  His RC W/L percentage (10-4-1) is better than Westwoods (20-15-6), he has the experience and he has actually won the WGC- Match Play.  And Luke actually makes putts once in a while.

Clarke said Donald WAS being considered but that his game hadn't been good enough.
But as you may know by now, Euro players don't get picked on form alone. There are other factors like chemistry, team dynamics, incl. attachment to the ET.

Kwini, More circumstantial evidence that his injury may not be a bona fide injury. I always thought it was a little fishy.

IIRC once his rehab starts on the EuroT expire, every event he plays on the EuroT will cancel out an event on the PGAT if its an event that he is qualified.

pedro wrote:There are other factors like chemistry, team dynamics, incl. attachment to the ET.

and nepotism.

GPB... I don't see it as exploitation of anything or a loophole. It's the same rule for everyone and there's no assumption for Poulter or any other player what he would or wouldn't have qualified for including the US Open.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... the PGAT is an advocate for the success of its members and does all that it reasonably can for the players who make reasonable efforts to meet their member obligations. Yes this rule can be liberal in some instances like this one maybe, but IMO it's better written the way it is than getting into a "what if" game with each individual player in each individual circumstance. And when it comes to injuries... the Tour has always leaned towards players having ample opportunity to save their careers. It finally had to crack down on some MM past rules when it was felt some were milking the disability eligibility.

GPB,
So long as DC wins, who gives a damn? I know you do, and Mac, but no-one else!

pedro is spot on, as usual.

I don't believe there's any grounds to suggest Poulter s injury isn't 100% legitimate. No freeking way that guy is gonna pass on even a chance to qualify or get picked for a Ryder Cup and fabricate some injury story.

And I expect Poulter will play his rehab starts intelligently, just like most of them do.... just like ishikawa is doing now. He'd be stupid not to.

Here's the background on his foot issue. I have zero reason to believe Poulter, Dr Ara, or the Tour are pulling some kind of ruse over all this.

http://www.pgatour.com/news/2016/06/03/ian-poulter-foot-injury.html

Result of Ryder Cup not overly important to me- probably prefer to see US win it for Davis Love - having to put up with all that "Seve was looking down on us" nonsense in 2012 as well as Kaymer turning his back on Steve Stricker and running off the green - of course no one is allowed to accuse the Euros of bad sportsmanship, when the US whip up the crowd, it's bad sportsmanship, when Euros do it it's ok.

The behaviour of the European Team at Celtic Manor was particularly bad as even 3 foot putts for halves were followed by high fives and fist pumps and waving the arms up at the crowd. I'm already dreading the interviews by the Euros about "the incredible things that were said in the team room" and other such nonsense

This is one European pulling for the US this time.

kwinigolfer wrote:GPB,
So long as DC wins, who gives a damn? I know you do, and Mac, but no-one else!

pedro is spot on, as usual.

LMAO...very pithy!!

robopz wrote:I don't believe there's any grounds to suggest Poulter s injury isn't 100% legitimate.  No freeking way that guy is gonna pass on even a chance to qualify or get picked for a Ryder Cup and fabricate some injury story.

And I expect Poulter will play his rehab starts intelligently, just like most of them do.... just like ishikawa is doing now. He'd be stupid not to.

Here's the background on his foot issue.  I have zero reason to believe Poulter, Dr Ara, or the Tour are pulling some kind of ruse over all this.

http://www.pgatour.com/news/2016/06/03/ian-poulter-foot-injury.html

Prior to this announcement, I don't think there was any indication that Poulter was hurting. As vocal as he is on twitter there wasn't one word about an arthritic foot.

and what in the world is Dr. Ara doing commenting on a patients health? Even if Poulter waived his HIPAA rights, no Doctor should be commenting on his/her patients health.

John Cregan wrote:Result of Ryder Cup not overly important to me- probably prefer to see US win it for Davis Love - having to put up with all that "Seve was looking down on us" nonsense in 2012 as well as Kaymer turning his back on Steve Stricker and running off the green - of course no one is allowed to accuse the Euros of bad sportsmanship, when the US whip up the crowd, it's bad sportsmanship, when Euros do it it's ok.

The behaviour of the European Team at Celtic Manor was particularly bad as even 3 foot putts for halves were followed by high fives and fist pumps and waving the arms up at the crowd. I'm already dreading the interviews by the Euros about "the incredible things that were said in the team room" and other such nonsense

This is one European pulling for the US this time.  

Once you hear "baba booey" for the 100th time, you might change your tune.

super_realist wrote:

John Cregan wrote:Result of Ryder Cup not overly important to me- probably prefer to see US win it for Davis Love - having to put up with all that "Seve was looking down on us" nonsense in 2012 as well as Kaymer turning his back on Steve Stricker and running off the green - of course no one is allowed to accuse the Euros of bad sportsmanship, when the US whip up the crowd, it's bad sportsmanship, when Euros do it it's ok.

The behaviour of the European Team at Celtic Manor was particularly bad as even 3 foot putts for halves were followed by high fives and fist pumps and waving the arms up at the crowd. I'm already dreading the interviews by the Euros about "the incredible things that were said in the team room" and other such nonsense

This is one European pulling for the US this time.  

Once you hear "baba booey" for the 100th time, you might change your tune.

Almost as bad as "UUUUUrooppeeee" !

[quote="GPB
and what in the world is Dr. Ara doing commenting on a patients health?  Even if Poulter waived his HIPAA rights, no Doctor should be commenting on his/her patients health.[/quote]

It's just a foot injury, not something life threatening, so why wouldn't Doctor comment?

John Cregan wrote:

super_realist wrote:

John Cregan wrote:Result of Ryder Cup not overly important to me- probably prefer to see US win it for Davis Love - having to put up with all that "Seve was looking down on us" nonsense in 2012 as well as Kaymer turning his back on Steve Stricker and running off the green - of course no one is allowed to accuse the Euros of bad sportsmanship, when the US whip up the crowd, it's bad sportsmanship, when Euros do it it's ok.

The behaviour of the European Team at Celtic Manor was particularly bad as even 3 foot putts for halves were followed by high fives and fist pumps and waving the arms up at the crowd. I'm already dreading the interviews by the Euros about "the incredible things that were said in the team room" and other such nonsense

This is one European pulling for the US this time.  

Once you hear "baba booey" for the 100th time, you might change your tune.

Almost as bad as "UUUUUrooppeeee" !

Bad as that is, it's not in the same league of Poopie as the one and only song America of YOU-ESS-AY.

Oh come on John I can't believe you are comparing the two things .. .US and EU jingoism

Hurting that the tatty munchers aren't represented much perhaps?

GPB wrote:

pedro wrote:There are other factors like chemistry, team dynamics, incl. attachment to the ET.

and nepotism.

Nothing wrong with nepotism... as long as it stays in the family.


And better to pick someone you know will bring something to the table, rather than succumb to media pressure and backpat hooha.

Davie wrote:Oh come on John I can't believe you are comparing the two things .. .US and EU jingoism

Hurting that the tatty munchers aren't represented much perhaps?

Maybe we should ask Sergio to invite John over for tatties?

I think the picks are fine. Important to get the experience in there, whilst Pieters just couldn't be ignored.

Out of the whole team, I am concerned Chris Wood is going to struggle, don't know why, just doesn't ooze confidence to me.

GPB wrote:Prior to this announcement, I don't think there was any indication that Poulter was hurting.  As vocal as he is on twitter there wasn't one word about an arthritic foot.

and what in the world is Dr. Ara doing commenting on a patients health?  Even if Poulter waived his HIPAA rights, no Doctor should be commenting on his/her patients health.

Well there you have it then... if Poulter didn't want to tell you about a foot problem he was having, then he must be lying? Wow... OK... whatever. And my guess is Dr. Ara wouldn't have been quoted regarding one of his patient's specific conditions without the OK from the patient... doncha think?

GPB wrote:
and what in the world is Dr. Ara doing commenting on a patients health?  Even if Poulter waived his HIPAA rights, no Doctor should be commenting on his/her patients health.

Really???? I have no idea what HIPAA means (if you're HIPAA and you know it clap your hands?) - but SURELY a Doctor is allowed to comment if it backs up what the patient is saying and the patient has approved the comment?

How many times have we heard from Tiger's medical "experts"? I don't recall you crying foul over that?

super,
Wood's playing this week in Crans. He hasn't played more than 36 holes in a tournament since France two months ago - would think this week amounts to a fitness test.
He's grouped with Thongchai and the Mechanic, kinda surprised he doesn't have a VC in the group.