Warren Gatland announced as Lions coach

by GunsGerms Tue 06 Sep 2016, 11:52

First topic message reminder :

Apparently, according to Ian McGeechan anyway Gatland has been given the job again.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 21 Sep 2016, 13:44

I realise that there are a lot of Gatland detractors out there (with some valid arguments surrounding his track record with Wales against the SH teams), but every now and then it's worth pausing to look at his track record of trophies/ awards:

Ireland

Centenary Quaich - 2000
Millennium Trophy - 2001

Wasps

Premiership - 2002–03, 2003–04, 2004–05
Heineken Cup - 2003–04
European Challenge Cup - 2002–03

Wales

6 Nations - 2008, 2012, 2013
Grand Slam - 2008 and 2012
Triple Crown - 2008 and 2012

James Bevan Trophy - 2008

Prince William Cup - 2014

Note - if you believe that Gatland should not be credited for 2012 please feel free to discount it. No arguments please!

Waikato

Air New Zealand Cup - 2006

Lions

Series victory against Australia - 2013

Unless anyone tells me otherwise, I would also suggest that Gatland's record with each side list above is better than that of his predecessor, unless anyone can correct me on that. Yes, looking at trophies is a blunt way of judging a coach, but whatever you think of the man and his abilities, he's won fair chunk of stuff.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Sep 2016, 13:52

miaow wrote:
beshocked wrote:miaow I still don't agree that the Lions and Leicester City are that similar.

Also even though Vardy is a good player, I don't think he'll ever be in the same league as Messi or Ronaldo, quite literally too.

The Lions does have players with the potential to be world class.

With the right coaches and players, the Lions IMO could challenge the ABs.

Sadly I think Gatland is the wrong man.

1. Ok, that's fine, however I think you're willfully ignoring the argument that is being made.
2. All the more reason that Leicester's tactics and set up should be replicated! They made a player with raw talents but not holistic pedigree and techincal ability to be searingly effective at scoring goals (Alex Cuthbert...!?). What a wonderful commendation the team, coaches, scouting etc. should receive, and how useful such tactics and methodology might be for teams trying to equally prosper against teams that have the circumstances in their favour.
3. They have very good players, but the All Blacks have 1-15, and maybe even 1-23, who are better in most if not all departments. Add all the other circumstantial factors that will benefit the All Blacks and hinder the Lions, and you'd be a fool to simply reply on the "potential" qualities of the players alone to flourish and get them over the line
4. Gatland is deemed to be the best and most reasonable option for this, according to pretty much all people.
5. I fail to see how you come to that conclusion, but please suggest a reasonable alternative that isn't as fanciful and naive as 7.5's idea of "complete": i.e. one whereby- when you weigh up the evidence- they provide a better chance for the Lions to win out in NZ, and not one that could possibly get the Lions scoring more tries etc. The bottom line: suggest me a coach that is available to the Lions that could do better than Gatland, based on evidence.

Naive idea of what I mean by complete...ok. You're now argusing that as Leicester came 1st they would automatically have more players in a combined team ignoring detail. Something you said you don't do.

by Guest Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:03

Barney McGrew did it wrote:"suggest me a coach that is available to the Lions that could do better than Gatland, based on evidence."

Claudio Ranieri?

Reckon he's lined up to replace CoS for the Azzurri

by Guest Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:09

No 7&1/2 wrote:Naive idea of what I mean by complete...ok. You're now argusing that as Leicester came 1st they would automatically have more players in a combined team ignoring detail. Something you said you don't do.

You plucked the word complete out of the air, before having to find a definition for it after that fact. It's no surprise there's some confusion surrounding what you actually mean, because as I said, you clearly don't actually know yourself!

Automatically? Are you that dense? Are your eyes so full of sand that you're no longer even bothering to read?

by Guest Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:10

funnyExiledScot wrote:Unless anyone tells me otherwise, I would also suggest that Gatland's record with each side list above is better than that of his predecessor, unless anyone can correct me on that. Yes, looking at trophies is a blunt way of judging a coach, but whatever you think of the man and his abilities, he's won fair chunk of stuff.

Bang on. Gets it right more often that not, and gets it right when it matters most.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:11

I plucked complete out then explained what I meant by it when asked. If you want me to explain further just ask. You think Leicester would have more players then, I wouldn't. there we go.

by **George Carlin** Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:16

funnyExiledScot wrote:I realise that there are a lot of Gatland detractors out there (with some valid arguments surrounding his track record with Wales against the SH teams), but every now and then it's worth pausing to look at his track record of trophies/ awards:

Ireland

Centenary Quaich - 2000
Millennium Trophy - 2001

Wasps

Premiership - 2002–03, 2003–04, 2004–05
Heineken Cup - 2003–04
European Challenge Cup - 2002–03

Wales

6 Nations - 2008, 2012, 2013
Grand Slam - 2008 and 2012
Triple Crown - 2008 and 2012

James Bevan Trophy - 2008

Prince William Cup - 2014

Note - if you believe that Gatland should not be credited for 2012 please feel free to discount it. No arguments please!

Waikato

Air New Zealand Cup - 2006

Lions

Series victory against Australia - 2013

Unless anyone tells me otherwise, I would also suggest that Gatland's record with each side list above is better than that of his predecessor, unless anyone can correct me on that. Yes, looking at trophies is a blunt way of judging a coach, but whatever you think of the man and his abilities, he's won fair chunk of stuff.

Warren Gatland announced as Lions coach - Page 18 Proveanythinggreen_1

by Guest Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:19

No 7&1/2 wrote:I plucked complete out then explained what I meant by it when asked. If you want me to explain further just ask. You think Leicester would have more players then, I wouldn't. there we go.

The point is you're just looking for any axe to grind against Wales, Gatland, and apparently the Lions' success. Even when you don't have a specific target for your ire (other than the aforementioned), you're swinging that axe in the hope it hits something. Your choice of "complete" seemed a hollow enough platitude that wouldn't get you called out, but also reasonable enough that others could infer it to be a negative, and agree with you; after all, this is the point of being vague, let people interpret your words as they wish.

My point is that you're making it up as you go along. If you really felt that "relying on a few players" (which, again, is just facile and illogical and actually in no way a negative to creating a successful team, as evidened by the Shane/Adam Jones example, and Arsenal and Leicester) was your criticism, you would have said exactly that, and not "complete". You don't know what your opinion is because you don't have one! You're genuinely just making it up and persistently moving your goalposts, which includes either an unbelievably basic and fundamental lack of reading ability and the comprehension of words, or you're deliberately pretending to misinterpret my argument to disparage it.

But please, keep swinging...

by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:23

So there we go. You've looked past what I've said and perceive it a slight against Wales and Gatland. And the relying on fewer players was an example following the Leicester Arsenal thing highlighting that picking a squad on who finishes above who doesn't hold water; you need to look at further info. There's no moving of goal posts, just yourself and LD mainly looking for offence and ignoring points.

by Guest Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:34

No 7&1/2 wrote:And the relying on fewer players was an example following the Leicester Arsenal thing highlighting that picking a squad on who finishes above who doesn't hold water; you need to look at further info.

That sums you up. Your grasp of the English language is so poor and so vague- "thing", "further info"- that it's a struggle trying to decipher what you mean. I'm saying and have said and dear me I cannot believe I'm having to say one final time that there are conditions to success that Leicester, Portual, and Iceland all used in the previous 12 months that have been conducive to their wining against the odds, and that the Lions can and will look to replicate that pragmatic approach under Warren Gatland. The fact that you appear to be advocating a mirroring of Arsenal's approach to sport- which regularly overlooks pragmatism, and as such they are a team of bottlers and unachievers- despite the Lions not having the systemic advantage Arsenal have anyway is such a glowing example of your ignorance on the matter that either you literally are just advocating "something other than Gatland (or even Gatland without Gatland's tactics)" because of a bias against him or the country he coaches, or you're just genuinely dense. I'm at a loss to decide which it is. I'd hazard a guess and say it's somehwere in the middle; the irony of it not being a black and white binary!!! Haha.

You've celebrated the Wales and Lions captain's injury. You repeatedly show hostility and criticism of Warren Gatland's techniques and abilites as a coach, despite having no specific critism other than lazy, casual fan type criticisms along the lines of "I could do better" that show absolutely no understanding of professional sport. I'm making an assessment on that basis, and it's reasonable to say you're wielding an axe that is anti-Gatland first and foremost, and not in the best interests of the Lions.

by Guest Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:36

Also, I'm not carrying on with this anymore. Apologies for turning this thread into what I was trying to stop, which was a petty back and forth bickering over non rugby related discussion.

7.5, here's two parting gifts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnlm_DPVpng

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvObiPPHvUA

Let's get back to the rugby.

by R!skysports Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:39

Guys - could you please stop this - it is so boring for the rest of us

you two do not agree - move on

Pages and pages of you said, I said is pointless

thanks :-)

by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:44

Where was I talking about Arsenals approach? If you were to look across 2 or more teams as the Lions do why would you want to confine yourself to either Leicesters or Arsenals approach. With both sets you may well have another option open which is more beneficial. It's you who appears to be saying Gatland is unable to adapt his style, though previously you have talked about his adaptability and the fact that 'Gatlandball' has changed over the years.

But seriously point where I celebrated an injury you won't find it and you again seem desperate to portray me by things i haven't said.

Like you said back to the rugby rather than picking fights where there isn't one.

And sorry Risky.

by Guest Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:51

No 7&1/2 wrote: either Leicesters or Arsenals approach.

miaow wrote:I'd hazard a guess and say it's somehwere in the middle; the irony of it not being a black and white binary!!! Haha.

I'm done, I promise. censored

by Cyril Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:54

So, Chris Ashton on one wing, who should be picked on the other?

by **George Carlin** Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:55

Cyril wrote:So, Chris Ashton on one wing, who should be picked on the other?

Someone who isn't going to sink their teeth into Julian Savea.

by Guest Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:55

Cyril wrote:So, Chris Ashton on one wing, who should be picked on the other?

Shane Williams, back out of retirement for the third Test.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 21 Sep 2016, 14:58

George Carlin wrote:
Cyril wrote:So, Chris Ashton on one wing, who should be picked on the other?
Someone who isn't going to sink their teeth into Julian Savea.

I'm not so sure. It might put Savea off his game....

We could send some proper thugs down there and see how that plays. Dylan Hartley is already a candidate for captain. What about Calum Clark?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Sep 2016, 15:00

miaow wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote: either Leicesters or Arsenals approach.

miaow wrote:I'd hazard a guess and say it's somehwere in the middle; the irony of it not being a black and white binary!!! Haha.

I'm done, I promise.

Except you weren't talking about style of play in that post. Sorry again.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 21 Sep 2016, 15:25

by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Sep 2016, 15:33

Sorry again, back to jokes about arm breakers FES.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 21 Sep 2016, 15:37

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sorry again, back to jokes about arm breakers FES.

Yes please. Let's have your best XV of limb breakers, gougers and biters.

I'd have P Divvy as the coach for starters.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Sep 2016, 15:46

Grewcock is nailed on at least.

by R!skysports Wed 21 Sep 2016, 15:59

Best at Stamping?

by **George Carlin** Wed 21 Sep 2016, 16:04

Julien Dupuy to have the captain's armband.

Or he'd just gouge the actual captain and take it anyway.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 21 Sep 2016, 16:07

Some suggestions:

1.Attoub 2.Hartley(c) 3.Grau 4.Grewcock 5.Botha 6.Clark 7.Burger 8.Koyamaibole 9.Rees 10.McRae 11.Rabeni 12.? 13.Tuilagi 14.Ashton 15.Armitage

No room at the Inn for Alan Quinlan or Neil Best. I struggled for centres, and I initially wanted to exempt Manu Tuilagi due to the fact that his victim was Chris Ashton.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 21 Sep 2016, 16:09

George Carlin wrote:Julien Dupuy to have the captain's armband.

Or he'd just gouge the actual captain and take it anyway.

I went for Richie Rees over Dupuy. Rees gouged Dylan Hartley, but a far greater offence was being pants for Edinburgh.

by GunsGerms Wed 21 Sep 2016, 16:16

I wonder who the token Kiwi on tour will be this time? Bundee Aki?

by lostinwales Wed 21 Sep 2016, 16:27

What about that Irish hooker who took tripping a french winger to a new level?

by BamBam Wed 21 Sep 2016, 16:29

What about the Irish guy who punched a fan

Brennan was it?

by GunsGerms Wed 21 Sep 2016, 16:31

Jerry Flannery and Trevor Brennan.

Peter Clohessy was our worst ever thug though. He smashed a french guys jaw by stamping on it.

by Cyril Wed 21 Sep 2016, 16:31

BOD was both a hair-puller and a stamper.

by GunsGerms Wed 21 Sep 2016, 16:33

Cyril wrote:BOD was both a hair-puller and a stamper.

Ha. I think he got one yellow card in his career for a stamp. It was a terrible attempt at a stamp too.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 21 Sep 2016, 16:34

GunsGerms wrote:I wonder who the token Kiwi on tour will be this time? Bundee Aki?

You could take either Hardie or Maitland from "Scotland".

by Cyril Wed 21 Sep 2016, 16:37

GunsGerms wrote:
Cyril wrote:BOD was both a hair-puller and a stamper.

Ha. I think he got one yellow card in his career for a stamp. It was a terrible attempt at a stamp too.

He was certainly an over-rated stamper (luckily for that Italian).

Henson's hair was never the same again though.

by GunsGerms Wed 21 Sep 2016, 16:44

He is greatest achievement though was battering Austin Healy.

by Cyril Wed 21 Sep 2016, 16:47

GunsGerms wrote:He is greatest achievement though was battering Austin Healy.

Aye, probably true. If it's possible to find someone more unlikable than ROG then you have to pick Healy!

by aucklandlaurie Wed 21 Sep 2016, 16:54

GunsGerms wrote:I wonder who the token Kiwi on tour will be this time? Bundee Aki?

Teimana Harrison, Ben Te'o?

by GunsGerms Wed 21 Sep 2016, 17:10

aucklandlaurie wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:I wonder who the token Kiwi on tour will be this time? Bundee Aki?

Teimana Harrison, Ben Te'o?

I think Aki is better than Te'o personally. Not familiar with Teimana Harrison.

by aucklandlaurie Wed 21 Sep 2016, 17:14

GunsGerms wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:I wonder who the token Kiwi on tour will be this time? Bundee Aki?

Teimana Harrison, Ben Te'o?

I think Aki is better than Te'o personally. Not familiar with Teimana Harrison.

They're all pretty good, Gatty will probably pick them all.

by BamBam Wed 21 Sep 2016, 17:25

GunsGerms wrote:I wonder who the token Kiwi on tour will be this time? Bundee Aki?

Surely captain Hartley?

by aucklandlaurie Wed 21 Sep 2016, 17:35

BamBam wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:I wonder who the token Kiwi on tour will be this time? Bundee Aki?

Surely captain Hartley?

I didnt want to say that in case I a big growling for suggesting the England captain be a token selection.

by **RiscaGame** Wed 21 Sep 2016, 17:46

Cyril wrote:So, Chris Ashton on one wing, who should be picked on the other?

Think the boy Shane will be nailed on for the left wing.

by **RiscaGame** Wed 21 Sep 2016, 17:48

Ah, I guessed it would be done first but couldn't be bothered checking past Cyril's post.

Aled Brew as a bolter otherwise.

by R!skysports Sat 05 Nov 2016, 22:19

Guess this is looking less like a good idea now - well done Ireland

by Guest Sat 05 Nov 2016, 22:35

Riskysports wrote:Guess this is looking less like a good idea now - well done Ireland

Why? Schmidt ruled himself out didn't he? They have to select someone as head coach. For what it's worth I wouldn't have picked Gats either, but the Ireland v NZ result doesn't change Schmidt not being available in the first place.

by TJ Sat 05 Nov 2016, 22:55

Could we have an entire lions team of kiwis?
Hartley as captain
Hardie and Maitland
Aki
Harrison

Who else?

by mikey_dragon Sat 05 Nov 2016, 23:10

If Schmidt doesn't have plans post-Ireland there will be a vacancy with Wales. Might he be interested?

by lostinwales Sat 05 Nov 2016, 23:12

TJ wrote:Could we have an entire lions team of kiwis?
Hartley as captain
Hardie and Maitland
Aki
Harrison

Who else?

Wasn't Mako born in NZ?

Could stretch the rules a little and include Matt Symons too. English born but has played most of his rugby in NZ

by Cyril Sat 05 Nov 2016, 23:13

Ireland's fantastic win is just going to make NZ angry.

Gats' Lions task just got a whole lot harder...

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