Champions Cup Pool 1: Glasgow Warriors v Leicester Tigers, 14 October

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Glasgow Warriors v Leicester Tigers
Friday 14 October 2016
KO: 19:45
Scotstoun Stadium

Live on BT Sport / beIN Sports

Referee Mathieu Raynal (France)
Touch Judge 1 Salam Attalah (France)
Touch Judge 2 Thomas Dejean (France)
TMO Philippe Bonhoure (France)
Citing Commissioner Patrice Frantschi (France)

A. Head to Head

Played 2, Leicester Won 2, No Draws

B. Recent Form

20/01/2001
Leicester Tigers 41 - 26 Glasgow Warriors
EUROPEAN CUP

15/10/2000
Glasgow Warriors 21 - 33 Leicester Tigers
EUROPEAN CUP

C. Teams

Glasgow Warriors 

Stuart Hogg, Leonardo Sarto, Alex Dunbar, Sam Johnson, Rory Hughes, Finn Russell, Henry Pyrgos,Gordon Reid, Fraser Brown, Zander Fagerson, Tim Swinson, Jonny Gray, Rob Harley, Ryan Wilson, Josh Strauss.

Replacements: Pat MacArthur, Alex Allan, Sila Puafisi, Matt Fagerson, Lewis Wynne, Ali Price, Mark Bennett, Sean Lamont.

Leicester Tigers

Telusa Veainu, Adam Thompstone, Mathew Tait, Matt Toomua, Tom Brady, Owen Williams, Ben Youngs, Ellis Genge, Tom Youngs, Dan Cole, Dom Barrow, Graham Kitchener, Mike Fitzgerald, Brendon O'Connor, Lachlan McCaffrey.

Replacements: Harry Thacker, Logovi'i Mulipola, Greg Bateman, Ed Slater, Will Evans, Sam Harrison, Freddie Burns, Peter Betham.

Sorry Glasgow, but I see only one outcome in a Glasgow vs Saracens game.

Leicester were almost entirely passive at the breakdown and contact area - something I thought I'd never say about a Leicester team. Not only did Fraser Brown manshame about 4 Leicester tacklers on his way to the tryline, but about 5 minutes later Josh Strauss skittled another batch of Tigers defenders. I would not have enjoyed watching that game sitting next to Johnson, Kay, Moody, Back and Corry. They would not be impressed.

Saracens are an entirely different beast at the moment. Relentlessly physical and relentlessly consistent. I think Sarries would put the squeeze on Glasgow and I don't think Glasgow would be able to get sufficient momentum to get their attacking game in full swing. Sarries are the best team in Europe, and Glasgow have struggled at the top table. Glasgow need to start winning some ugly away games against those monster French packs to really lay claim to being on a par with Sarries.

Indeed, I would agree with that, one swallow does not make a summer and Glasgow are a long way off being compared to Sarries, who are quite rightly held to be the best team in Europe by a reasonable distance at the moment.

We just need to take it one game at a time and for now just concentrate on the Munster game (if it takes place) which may now have an added dimension of difficulty for obvious reasons.

If we do play to our full potential, something that we have rarely managed in Europe, then we do stand a chance of qualifying for the knockouts. Until then talk of comparisons with some of the European greats who have already done the business is very premature.

Since when are Glasgow better than Sarries?

I don't think anyone is saying that they are - TJ said that it would be a great game to watch and thought Glasgow could win (but would not bet his house on it).

BigGee that's a good way to look at it - take one game at a time.

Difficulty I think that Glasgow will face like most teams is winning away. Leicester,Racing,Munster aren't exactly easy places to pick up points away from home.

Glasgow will only progress in the competition if they go to other team's backyard and win.

FES Saracens are also a different beast psychologically, when they go to tough away venues they go with the belief that they will win. They've built up the experience. Losses to French monsters taught some harsh lessons. Now the French teams in all likelihood fear Saracens as one team that take them on.

Glasgow need to go through the learning process, Saracens in 2010-11 pool came bottom of a very tough pool, Clermont and Toulon have bullied Saracens in recent seasons but Saracens have now built up some notable wins over some of those French monsters.

There's hope for Glasgow though because in reality it was Saracens skill with ball in hand which unlocked the Toulon defence. Big forwards linking with backs to stretch the defence.

As for Leicester, I just personally think they've lost a bit of their identity. Need to go back to what makes Tigers, the Tigers.

If you looked at the Leicester of old, you wouldn't imagine the likes of Burns and Tait being Leicester players. To be honest I wouldn't see Thacker either.

Someone needs to give Leicester a bit more bite.

Sarries defence is suffocating and the way they attack rucks just drags in forwards and tires them. It's brutal and for all the complaints over Sarries pragmatic approach they are more than capable of running in tries. Their first half attacking play at the weekend was a clinical masterclass in moving the point of attack and using power runners to tie in defenders and then as dummies for passes out the back. None if it was complex but I can't see any team in the competition who can stop that sort of rugby at present. Maybe Clermont if they really show up. 

Glasgow were good but Tigers were abject. If Glasgow can do the same to Racing and Munster when they visit Glasgow then it's time for the Glasgow fans to get excited.

Sam - you know us scots fans - our teams are either world beaters or hopeless - and veer between the two on a daily basis

You are right that was a very good performance by Sarries. They look the team to beat this year.

Glasgow should win all their home games - but that away win is going to be hard to find.

Beshocked. Thacker has some bite and is similar in size to Back and Cockerill back in the day. I'd say the problem is the big forwards are playing like they are neutered. Of the front five the only one that got stuck in was Kitch. Gray was fired up and spoiling for a scrap but Barrow wasn't interested, he's supposed to be the enforcer and I would more readily forgive him laying one on Gray over doing nothing and being virtually anonymous. 

There's just not as much aggression as there used to be. The pack need to front up and get angry.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Glasgow were good but Tigers were abject. If Glasgow can do the same to Racing and Munster when they visit Glasgow then it's time for the Glasgow fans to get excited.

I think it was the lack of physicality and intensity that most struck me about this Tigers team. It's easy to blame coaches, but when you look at the Fraser Brown try for example, and the Strauss carry that followed it, Tigers defenders were just being knocked around (and Brown isn't exactly Bismaark Du Plessis). Time and time again the Glasgow ball carriers made easy yards and it gave Glasgow precious momentum. I've never seen Tigers defend so passively. Also worth noting that Glasgow were playing without an openside flanker, and yet appeared at times to have the breakdown at their mercy.

I know that the Tigers are a better team than that and there are some positive signs within the current squad - a Toomua/Tuilagi centre pairing for example could really be something and it's hard not to compile a dangerous back three with Veainu, Pietersen, Betham and Thompstone on the books. Still, we're a far cry from the ABC club, Johnson, Kay, Moody, Back and Corry, with Rabeni and Tuilagi tearing it up on the wings, and the sublime class of Murphy at 15. Nostalgia doesn't get you very far, but there were a few Tigers traditions that were not respected at Scotstoun.

Formerly known as Sam Cockerill was nowhere near as small as Thacker.

To be fair maybe you are right Maybe Thacker would have been fine years ago but these days the game is bigger and more physical.

Even Back would be seen as too small these days but also Back had skills about him that somehow made such a small man stand out.

Perhaps I shouldn't write off Thacker because he's still a young man but I cannot see him being another Neil Back.

I just remember the bruising and spiky Leicester pack, just doesn't seem the same. It's almost as if you've become too nice.

Something needs to change.

Tait a couple seasons ago could of made the 2003 Tigers team IMO.

Our biggest worry is the back row.
6 we have
Williams - Perfect 6 honestly best back rower in terms of potential we have had in years.
Croft - Always Injured
Fitzgerald - he is a very good lock but not a 6.
Hamilton - Excellent tackler and should prob start at 6 come this weekend.

7
O'Connor a great link player but I feel Salvi gave a lot more in defence and we are missing that.
Evans - I highly rate him and whilst smallish still he has a big work rate and very skillful, prob bench this weekend and starter in the AWC.

8
McCaffrey - Excellent work rate has huge heart but just isn't a 8, one of those jack of all trades master of.... But I really rate him but feel he is more of a Flanker.
Leonardi - Short term Journeyman.

Just looking at that we lack (outside of Williams) nasty players.

And still need 2 back rowers really, Fearns would be great and maybe Matera could be lured back depending on how strong Argentina policy will remain.

Second row I'm happy with on the whole.

Front Row could do with another Loosehead.


Backs need a 15 and a 13 (or 12 depending on where we view Roberts).

I will say that this squad currently is prob the youngest Tigers have ever had though.

beshocked wrote:Formerly known as Sam Cockerill was nowhere near as small as Thacker.

To be fair maybe you are right Maybe Thacker would have been fine years ago but these days the game is bigger and more physical.

Even Back would be seen as too small these days but also Back had skills about him that somehow made such a small man stand out.

Perhaps I shouldn't write off Thacker because he's still a young man but I cannot see him being another Neil Back.

I just remember the bruising and spiky Leicester pack, just doesn't seem the same. It's almost as if you've become too nice.

Something needs to change.

Cockers has already said that Thacker is a better hooker than be was and on Friday he made more impact ball in hand than Youngs. The scrum was also fine until Mulipola came on (some 10 mins after Thacker). Back was told he was too small but it didn't stop him and I doubt it'll stop Thacker. He's been more effective than McGuigan off the bench and if he gets a start he may start pressuring Tom.

I agree completely on the lack of spikiness in the team. The successful Tigers packs weren't always the biggest. They were the most aggressive and most intense and it was largely the same in the back divisions. The likes of Howard and Murphy weren't shy about getting in the thick of it if they needed to. As I mentioned above the forwards are a bit too soft. I'd drop Barrow for starters he's far too calm currently and bring in Slater for leadership and aggression. Fitzgerald needs a rocket up his backside if he's staying at 6 as well.

I don't know about Slater something seems to be different about him since his injury.

Welly wrote: I don't know about Slater something seems to be different about him since his injury.

I think he just needs a run of games to get his sharpness back. He looked good before his ankle injury.

Toomua not been cited

Welly wrote: Toomua not been cited

Good.  No reason at all to do so.  Incident seen by the ref and dealt with properly ie yellow card for a tip tackle where the player lands on the back.  I want to see citings where things have been missed or the wrong sanction applied but this one was the right decision even tho it was potentially a very dangerous tackle.

Toomua's a lucky boy to me. Could very easily have been given a red card (and I don't think many Tigers fans would have complained).

Is it not usually the case that if a potential red card offence isn't given a red during the game that it will be cited?

But its not a red card offense if the player lands on his back. Personally I wish somone had laid him out for it. I am sure it was deliberate attempt to intimidate Dancer who is still returning from his head injury

Not deliberate to land him on his head. He did nothing to stop the player landing on his neck and/or head though. Purely self preservation from Russell saved Toomua. To the letter of the law a yellow because of the landing but it is dangerous play. Surprised there was not at least a hearing to ask could Toomua have done more once he passed the horizontal. Either way, it is finished now.

No - not deliberate to land him on his head but a deliberate attempt to intimidate that went wrong

I don't think a 'deliberate attempt to intimidate' is fair TJ, or no more than any rugby player tries to get into his oppositions head early with a big hit.

Russell is looking for the pop out to Fraser Brown, then hesitates at the last moment as he spots Toomua in his eye line. Because he was looking to pass he hits contact in a very upright body position which allows Toomua to get underneath him as he did.

Obviously I'm not blaming Russell. It was dumb from Toomua to hook the legs like that when Russell was upright, so obviously in a likely position to tip over.

Either way it's really dumb from Toomua and could have ended much worse. Given how strictly tip tackles are monitored now I'm surprised it wasn't cited.

TJ wrote:But its not a red card offense if the player lands on his back.  Personally I wish somone had laid him out for it.  I am sure it was deliberate attempt to intimidate Dancer who is still returning from his head injury

Except that that would have been a red card offence and almost certainly followed with a ban. I can't help but wonder if all the players flying in and attempting to dispense their own justice, might have nudged the ref away from giving a red as is - he seemed annoyed with them and even if only subconsciously that may have affected his decision.

Players rushing in and crowd baying for blood can always lead to a ref trying to make sure they are not being seen to bow to pressure.

When the replays came on I was debating with my brother whether we should be seeing them as it could inflame the crowd (well he was debating with me ). When I saw them I was convinced it woudl end up yellow due to the landing, unless the ref deemed that Toomua had driven him into the ground. The Scotstoun crowd were of course rather vocal the other way. Guy next to me having listened to my arguments agreed, but said the crowd feel Russell is being targeted by all teams and that there was a belief that Leicester would rough him up. Couple behind took umbrage when I suggested that past injuries shoudl have no bearing on ref's decision and my assertion that Toomua may not know much about Russell - though to be fair they had no idea who Toomua was.

I do not believe it was a deliberate attempt to intimidate another player illegally, I just think it was a urine poor tackle from a rusty player making his first appearance for the club. Ref and TMO seemed to make sure they were following the correct protocol - even if we do not agree with the decision.

Big wrote:

TJ wrote:But its not a red card offense if the player lands on his back.  Personally I wish somone had laid him out for it.  I am sure it was deliberate attempt to intimidate Dancer who is still returning from his head injury

Except that that would have been a red card offence and almost certainly followed with a ban.  I can't help but wonder if all the players flying in and attempting to dispense their own justice, might have nudged the ref away from giving a red as is - he seemed annoyed with them and even if only subconsciously that may have affected his decision.

The ref didn't seem bothered by the scuffle after. He seemed bored by the off the ball stuff that appeared now and again. He didn't review the scuffle after which was possibly best for Glasgow seeing as there was a bit of a shoulder charge from the second man in. I was calling for a Leicester player react and lay Gray out for his persistent off the ball play and whinging to the ref (he got under the Tigers skin very well). Johnno or Deacs would have sorted him out inside the first twenty, Barrow is a kitten by comparison.

Going back to the ref he had the law step by step guide as soon as he saw the tip. Past the horizontal, driven or dropped and then where he landed. Almost an automated response.

Big wrote:

TJ wrote:But its not a red card offense if the player lands on his back.  Personally I wish somone had laid him out for it.  I am sure it was deliberate attempt to intimidate Dancer who is still returning from his head injury

Except that that would have been a red card offence and almost certainly followed with a ban.  .........................

Yup - it would have been but it might have stopped people from trying to rough him up.  To be clear I do not think Toomua intended to injure him or tip him but I do think it was a deliberate attempt to intimidate Dancer and to make him hesitate about playing flat that went wrong.

formerly known as Sam wrote:......................... I was calling for a Leicester player react and lay Gray out for his persistent off the ball play and whinging to the ref (he got under the Tigers skin very well). Johnno or Deacs would have sorted him out inside the first twenty, Barrow is a kitten by comparison.

Was our Ickle jonny doing that? I didn't see it which perhaps shows how one eyed we can all become

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Going back to the ref he had the law step by step guide as soon as he saw the tip. Past the horizontal, driven or dropped and then where he landed. Almost an automated response.

Which is good as it meant he came to the right decision. Despite being very angry about it I still think yellow was correct the way the laws and guidance are now

Ickle Johnny did a magnificent job TJ. Led his team and set the tone with a really abrasive performance. Nothing wrong with inciting a bit of niggle in a big game. My annoyance is that Tigers took it or in some cases backed away from it rather than getting stuck in. We've lost too much of that "never a backwards step" mentality.

Ta - its just I never saw it. I have criticised him for not imposing himself enough in the past.

TJ wrote:Ta - its just I never saw it.  I have criticised him for not imposing himself enough in the past.  

It's often an experience thing. Players start aggressive and in your face then after age grade either realise it doesn't work in senior rugby or go to far and get into various scrapes with citing officials or referees. The good players use experience to play right up to the line and avoid sanctions. Gray set the tone early and the Glasgow players followed suit on Friday.

Can someone tell me how Toomua avoided a citing? Is this verification that it was a yellow? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37703135

nickj wrote:Can someone tell me how Toomua avoided a citing? Is this verification that it was a yellow? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37703135

He's said himself he was pretty lucky. But yes hes avoided being cited, I get muddled up on the exact protocols now as they keep changing but I assume its because it was an incident seen by and dealt with by the referee at the time.

The citing officer can still cite someone if he/she thinks that the further punishment is required - they obviously agreed that it should have been a yellow.

Without getting into the debate again about whether that was the correct decision, I still don't think that it sets a good example for the sport if a tackle like that is only worthy of a yellow in accordance with the laws (which seems to be the case).

RDW_Scotland wrote:The citing officer can still cite someone if he/she thinks that the further punishment is required - they obviously agreed that it should have been a yellow.

Without getting into the debate again about whether that was the correct decision, I still don't think that it sets a good example for the sport if a tackle like that is only worthy of a yellow in accordance with the laws (which seems to be the case).

Couldn't agree more RDW

He landed on his back, not his head or neck which is why it was only a yellow. So the ref got the decision spot on, which is why it wasn't cited.