Englands worst ever XV

1.Paul Doran Jones
2. David Paice
3. Tim Payne
4.Mauritz Botha
5.
6.
7. Michael Lipman?
8. Jordan Crane
9. Paul Hodgeson
10.
11. Lesley Vanikolo
12. Andy Farrell
13. Ayoola Erinle
14. Ian Balshaw
15. Mark Van Gisbergen

Notable mention - Henry Paul, Jordan Turner Hall, Shaun Perry,

Sorry - should have posted in international section

Moderators - can you please move to the International threads

Ben Skirving and Hendre Fourie are worth a shout?

You really can't have Balshaw in the worst XV (and certainly not as a winger). He may have had a few dodgy moments at FB (at the end of his international career) but he was a very good player for the most part. Unlucky with injuries too.

Balshaw was bloody brilliant in 2001

How about Magnus Lund or Joel Tomkins?

Cyril wrote:You really can't have Balshaw in the worst XV (and certainly not as a winger). He may have had a few dodgy moments at FB (at the end of his international career) but he was a very good player for the most part. Unlucky with injuries too.

I always suspected you were Brian Ashton

OK - Ian Balshaw playing 15 post 2004

I thought Hendre Fourie was quite good in the few chances he got!

Shontane Hape? Perhaps not that bad!

Victor Ubugu - had his lovers and haters

Nick Kennedy - was a good player but was never picked for England when in form.

Dippy Diprose?

Hmmm, it's no surprise that the vast majority of these players were capped between 2004-2010 ('The Barren Years').

Cyril wrote:Hmmm, it's no surprise that the vast majority of these players were capped between 2004-2010 ('The Barren Years').

Its also the generation most posters on here will remember.


Theres another question to the question ... is it worst players or worst performers for England?

I dont think you could class Farrell as one of the worst guys ever to get capped for England...he was just dropped into a mess and underperformed in and England shirt. But he had some class about him even in Union.

Good point - there have been excellent club players over the years that just haven't stepped up for the National side.

Others that have underperformed perhaps due to management or coaching.

eg. Bergamasco was an excellent back rower, but a shocking no.9

Think its a bit unfair for the one cap wonder types. Like those on the 98 tour of hell where about 25 players refused to tour.
Players who were years away from being test match ready were thrust into playing NZ and AUS away... saying chaps like that were bad I think is a little unfair.

JW, Lewsey etc made their bones on that tour and did not shine either.

fa0019 wrote:Think its a bit unfair for the one cap wonder types. Like those on the 98 tour of hell where about 25 players refused to tour.
Players who were years away from being test match ready were thrust into playing NZ and AUS away... saying chaps like that were bad I think is a little unfair.

Yeah but they were mediocre, they would never have been near and england shirt and the england coaches didnt want to pick them. Most were average club makeweights before they went and returned back the same.
Its as true for guys like Erinle who only got picked because pretty much the entire universe was injured. Mind you could put Noon ahead of him, 2 good shows and umpteen abysmal ones....despite in theory being a better player.

Andy Goode in an England shirt

Gooseberry wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Think its a bit unfair for the one cap wonder types. Like those on the 98 tour of hell where about 25 players refused to tour.
Players who were years away from being test match ready were thrust into playing NZ and AUS away... saying chaps like that were bad I think is a little unfair.

Yeah but they were mediocre, they would never have been near and england shirt and the england coaches didnt want to pick them.  Most were average club makeweights before they went and returned back the same.  
Its as true for guys like Erinle who only got picked because pretty much the entire universe was injured. Mind you could put Noon ahead of him, 2 good shows and umpteen abysmal ones....despite in theory being a better player.

That's the thing.

Guys like Jon Webb, Steve Ojomoh, Shaun Perry, Andy Goode, Charlie Hodgson, Jamie Noon etc are more suitable in my opinion because they were close to being worthy of squad places but they were terrible international players.

Lesley Vainikolo?
Henry Paul??

15 - Chris Martin (Not the Coldplay one, a Bath full back who was built like a tank yet under the high ball looked like Bambi on ice)
10 - Peter Williams (4 caps during teh Ron Andrew/Stuart Barnes period)
9 - Peter Richards (Talented rugby player, but bloody awful SH. Heck he made Shaun Perry look good)
8 - Chris Sheasby (Fun to watch, but combined a lack of power with a lack of pace. Yet he also played 7s)
4 - John Orwin (Worst international second row I have ever seen, yet he captained England)

Surely any 'worst ever' XV has to include a few of the guys who got selects based on going to the right school / University. Not going to mention names (cough - Marcus Rose - cough), but it definitely played a part during my early years watching England (from the late 70s to mid 80s at least).

In todays world Victor Ubogu would have been world class. The issue was he was a mobile prop in 1992 an era when prop were expected to scrum but nothing else

dummy_half wrote:Surely any 'worst ever' XV has to include a few of the guys who got selects based on going to the right school / University. Not going to mention names (cough - Marcus Rose - cough), but it definitely played a part during my early years watching England (from the late 70s to mid 80s at least).

Marcus Rose and Huw Davies both got more caps than they should.

Then there were the caps thrown out because one of the "regional" teams had done well against tourists.

Or because the new selectors were from one particular location. Really until Geoff Cooke came on board selection was disjointed, extremely prone to nepotism and there was never any sense that a team was being built. The success of 1980 was a fluke really.

LT

Huw Davies was certainly another I was thinking of, and you are entirely right in identifying Geoff Cooke as the coach that put an end to such things.

Of course it wasn't just England rugby that was afflicted with this - the same occurred and continued even a few years longer in cricket - exhibit A being Derek Pringle

fa0019 wrote:...Jon Webb, Steve Ojomoh, Shaun Perry, Andy Goode, Charlie Hodgson, Jamie Noon etc are more suitable in my opinion because they were close to being worthy of squad places but they were terrible international players.

Jon Webb was good, and Charlie Hodgson wasn't a bad international player. I'd describe his England career as "unfulfilled".

If you want a full-back, then my vote goes to Chris Martin (1985). He was built up as one of the fittest players ever to play for England, but was distinctly underwhelming.

Just noticed Alex Lozowski's father Rob was capped around the same time. Can't remember him at all.

Rob Lozowski just got the single cap I believe. He was perhaps unlucky not to get more.

As to Chris Martin, I offered him up earlier as he his performances at FB were reminiscent of Mauro Bergamasco's attempts to be a scrum half, without any of the mitigating factors.

LondonTiger wrote:Rob Lozowski just got the single cap I believe. He was perhaps unlucky not to get more.

Just looked and his single cap was against the GS Wallabies of 84. Of course in those days there was just the single AI. As a reflection of the vagaries of selection at the time just 3 players survived from the previous match (2nd test in SA) to make it into the side for Losowski's only test, while just 4 survived from that game to the next match. So 12 changes from one game to second ans 11 from second to third. In total 37 different players started for England across 3 consecutive tests.

Rugby Fan wrote:

fa0019 wrote:...Jon Webb, Steve Ojomoh, Shaun Perry, Andy Goode, Charlie Hodgson, Jamie Noon etc are more suitable in my opinion because they were close to being worthy of squad places but they were terrible international players.

Jon Webb was good, and Charlie Hodgson wasn't a bad international player. I'd describe his England career as "unfulfilled".

...

I'd actually put Alex Goode in this sort of group - perhaps 'terrible international' is a bit harsh, but he's certainly someone who shines at club level but struggled with the step up in quality (perhaps because his relative lack of pace is more noticeable against the best opponents). Could also put the likes of Phil Dowson in this group - had a fine club career but lacked that little bit extra to make the step up.

Perhaps the worst XV should be captained by Steve Borthwick - combined being a poor captain with being slightly under-powered as an international 2nd row (even if a very good club player).

Phil De Glanville deserves a mention. Not big, not quick, not skilful, not destructive in the tackle, just sort of there. They made him captain as well.

Steve Hanley was never an international winger. Just a big lump during that era where everyone was scratching around for a Jonah Lomu style winger (Scotland capped Roland Reid based on the same concept).

Hard to really judge Hanley based on a single cap when he was still a teenager. My memories of that match at Wembley are a touch faulty as I was there and well, it became an interesting evening. What I recall is that the centres were Barrie-Jon Mather (oh dear lord) and Sir JW. Wilkinon was largely anonymous, but I recall Hanley doing pretty well, including scoring a try, before he broke an arm that put him first out of the Summer tour plans and then second out of SCWs plans entirely.

I always felt he had more about hm than his friend and club colleague Mark Cueto.

FES

Great description of de Glanville. At club level had a lot of success with Bath, but aided by playing with Barnes inside and Guscott outside (so one guy who was top class at club level and one who was bordering on world class at Test level). Internationally? Meh.

Hanley I think was one of those guys who was given an opportunity too soon and then discarded and never really thought about again (and had plenty of injuries). His place as 'useless large lump of winger' then went to Matt Bananaman.

Interesting call on Cueto - I always felt he got picked on the basis of not having any glaring weaknesses rather than any particular strengths. He'd not make a mistake to lose you a game, but neither would he do anything to win you one.

Agreed on Cueto. A solid citizen with ok pace and a useful hand-off, but the sort of winger who would never have come close to a cap for one of the SH sides, although perhaps a lesser version of Cory Jane. Similar story with David Rees.

Sam Burgess

Phil Christophers is one of the others I would consider - he was a half-decent winger/centre at club level but I seem to remember he tripped Gareth Thomas during the 6 Nations and SCW stated he would never pick him again. As a result he never added to his 3 caps.

I get the impression he could not handle the International Stage. Although he did have a suitably laughable "Hitler Youth" style haircut...

Barrie-Jon Mather is an absolute shoo-in in the centres for me. Absolute shocker giving him his first & only cap against Wales...

Mr Bounce wrote:Phil Christophers is one of the others I would consider - he was a half-decent winger/centre at club level but I seem to remember he tripped Gareth Thomas during the 6 Nations and SCW stated he would never pick him again. As a result he never added to his 3 caps.

I get the impression he could not handle the International Stage. Although he did have a suitably laughable "Hitler Youth" style haircut...  

Barrie-Jon Mather is an absolute shoo-in in the centres for me. Absolute shocker giving him his first & only cap against Wales...

Can't argue with much of that - Phil Christophers definitely was one of those players that looked totally out of their depth at international level, even if a decent to good club player.

Barrie John Mather was a very good centre... in rugby league. One of the guys who should be held up as a cautionary tale for every league to union convert.

Charlie Hodgson always seemed massively overrated to me. Surely he can be squeezed in at 10?

Oh,yes.Tom Palmer was absolutely honking. If I remember correctly, was he not born in Scotland and "poached" by England when he wouldn't even have got in our team? Its fair to say Scotland have had the better of the poaching done

Tom Palmer was never that great, but he did fulfil that Lump role that England desperately needed at that time - he also benefited from being in a very good Wasps side at the time too.

Another one that failed to shine for England was Nick Kennedy - kept out of the team by Borthwick (the late years). Excellent club player but given very little chance at international. But didn't shine when he did.

Will Carling.

He had one half decent game against Scotland in 1996 and that was it.

rodders wrote:Will Carling.

He had one half decent game against Scotland in 1996 and that was it.

Rodders

You know every suggestion that Carling wasn't that great a player should be accompanied by this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03gpzFZadcQ

In reality, he was a good player and a very good captain for England, certainly well above the standard of the above list

(nice WUM though)

plenty of good club players who didnt make the step up, likes of charlie hodgson falls into that category, as does james simpson daniel for me. one good game against the ba ba's and that was it. injuries to blame but thought he was poor in majority of his appearances for england.

Chris Sheasby for England - Although was pretty good 7s player wasn't he?

propdavid_london wrote:Chris Sheasby for England - Although was pretty good 7s player wasn't he?

from above

LondonTiger wrote:
8 - Chris Sheasby (Fun to watch, but combined a lack of power with a lack of pace. Yet he also played 7s)

Cheers LT - missed that one

Happy for someone to agree with me

Henry Paul was awful.

Some of the more undistinguished England players from a fairly long life of watching them play, including periods when they were at least as bad as the Italian sides of recent vintage, the Scottish sides of five or six years ago and even our own sainted Irish teams from most of the late 1990s:

15) Chris Martin, 14) Phil Christophers, 13) Richard Cardus, 12) Shontayne Hape, 11) Matt Banahan, 10) Peter Williams, 9) Mike Lampkowski, 8) Jordan Crane 7) Andy Dun 6) Mark Keyworth 5) Dave Cusani 4) Mouritz Botha 3) Duncan Bell 2) David Paice 1) Austin Sheppard.

You have to find a place for Barry-Jon Mather surely?

He'd completely slipped my mind, trebellbo. Made Hape look like O'Driscoll, I agree.

really was out of his depth sadly.

Webb at 15.