Englands TH conundrum

Much discussion on here about a worrying lack of quality TH's after Cole and Davy Wilson.

Who is there coming through.

Personally (and i know i am biased but) Keiron brookes should be in there over Henry Thomas. The guy has been rejuvanted after his stint away to Leicester and offers a huge presence in the scrum AND excellent carrying. He has been consistantly good when playing this season.

Indeed whilst young Scott Wilson looks to have the better potential , Keiron is ahead at the moment and i would have no problems with him getting a game in NZ in the summer. I think he is that good.

We have Scott Wilson then slightly further down the path...not quite ready for the full XV but certainly showed very well in the Saxons games.

Who else is a genuine contender...? Whats your opinons of the below?

Henry Thomas
Collier
Sinkler
Knight
Any others?

I think you've got all the contenders down ..

I like Brookes, he looked to do pretty well against Ayerza at the weekend, which says a lot about his scrimmaging skills!

Henry Thomas impressed me when he came on against Ireland, I can't remember if it was after Healy went off, but he didn't take a step back in the scrum, and made a couple of decent carries if I'm right?

Wilson is the future, but too soon for him I think

Collier looked set to start for the Saxons, but is now injured?

Others just too young for international level

For the NZ tour, I would rest Cole even if he is fit, take David Wilson, Brookes and Thomas/Collier

Thomas was bigged up to struggle in the scrum and didn't albeit against Healy who obviously wasn't fresh. Think a few questions will be answered this weekend in regards to whether the wrong person is there as backup as he'll be tested against Wales whoever he is against.

I expect Thomas to struggle for a while yet. Over the next couple of years I can see his performances ranging from just about parity to taking a pasting every now and then. If he can crack international scrummaging though we've got a gem because his loose play is brilliant.

I reckon Scott Wilson will become the immovable object option, a modern day funbus as it were. Pair him with an aggressive loose head and away we go! In a (biased) sense I think he is the one we should be looking out for. His scrummaging is solid now at the age of 19, he's going to be like the 'Great Wall of the North' if he carries on like this. Stick him with U20's team mate Luke Cowan-Dickie at hooker and 'Old man Marler' in 3-4 years time the job's a good 'un.

Talking purely about potential, for RWC 2019/23 - I would throw Fraser Balmain into the mix. Sure Falcons dropped him at 18, and he has not been a star for England age group teams but he certainly has something about him. A year younger than Brookes, he showed much more for us in the last two years.

As part of the exchange program with Clermont, he spent time in their academy and came back a much more physical prop. we are all aware of Cockerill's reluctance to trust youth, but is starting to get a decent amount of first team action. With Dan Cole perhaps not playing again in 2014, this will only increase. He is good in the scrums, and rapidly improving and offers much in loose play both as a ball carrier and tackler.

He is a long, long way from the England setup, but do not be surprised to see him in the all white shirt over the next 10 years.

Old man Marler is only 23. Scary. Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins are going to be 10 years older on the day.

lostinwales wrote:Old man Marler is only 23. Scary. Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins are going to be 10 years older on the day.

That is a lot of extra experience in a position where players mature later.

LondonTiger wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Old man Marler is only 23. Scary. Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins are going to be 10 years older on the day.

That is a lot of extra experience in a position where players mature later.

I have to say I've been rather impressed by him. Last season he was smashed and looked a poor choice but well done to Rowntree who continued to back him. Not yet a top scrummager but I think the new rules have helped him immensely.

Adam Jones himself was at best a solid player before Gatland whipped him into shape (well for a 120kg prop at least).

I don't think the Welsh will do what Ireland did to England. Their scrum is less potent and Wilson will improve his fitness with every day back.  I think it will be pretty even upfront and that pushes the match towards England IMO.

I know there is no guarantee that Marler will continue to improve, and also a lot depends on luck with injuries, but he could be really something in 5 years or so.

Its great seeing him charging around like a baby rhino

Oh I am a Marler fan. He has steadily improved at the basics and is still young. Just feel that Adam Jones knows a few tricks that neither Marler nor Poite are aware of yet.

I think Marler has been excellent so far this 6n. Maybes not as heavy a scrummager as Corbs...but i think Marler has made Corbs absence far more minimal than most people thought.

I agree with Cumbrian (we are both probably biased of course) but Scott Wilson could be an absolute animal in a couple of years..he is already. His hero is Carl Hayman and if he can be up at those sorts of levels...then England are in good shape.

For the minute though Cole, Wilson, Brookes, Thomas.

Marler has transformed from a prop who was great in the loose but possibly left a bit to be desired in the tight (scrum) but he has turned into a good alround prop and he is only going to improve aswell. Is this the plan Lancas and Rowntree has for Thomas?

Might sound an odd question but is Lancs happier to have a front row that is solid at scrum time but extremely good in all the loose areas...breakdown, tackling, carrying etc? Or is it simply down to the personnel he has available.

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Might sound an odd question but is Lancs happier to have a front row that is solid at scrum time but extremely good in all the loose areas...breakdown, tackling, carrying etc? Or is it simply down to the personnel he has available?

Yes and Yes.

I think he would love to have a dominant front row - especially if the players could also do work around the park. However missing what are arguably the best props on each side he has a decision to make. Competence at the basic duties - scrummaging and lineout lifting are a must, ability round the park then is very important. As you stated in the OP, experienced choices at TH are limited, but on the loosehead he is selecting Marler ahead of MakoV - probably because Marler is the better technical scrummager.


So again Yes to both questions.

Don't know if this has been covered, but with two props now on the bench, the ability of props to play both LH and TH is being lost.  Whilst I appreciate the need to specialise, and the danger in too much versatility in certain situations, I feel this limits options.  

In the current situation, it might have meant that there wasn't such a difficult situation in terms of TH shortage.  A great deal can be learnt by playing against someone in your usual position. For example if you normally play LH, if on occasion you play TH, you get to learn what TH's find difficult, and how other LH's do things.

I agree that Marler is improving.  He is less of a liability penalty-wise, improving at scrum time, an asset in the loose, and decision-making will also improve.

IMHO, it's v possible to come on leaps and bounds as a prop in a fairly short space of time.  Equally, it's possible to lose your hard-earned reputation in the space of a couple of scrums.

Who mentioned 120 Kg as being out of shape ?  I beg to differ !

Well I dont think its going to be Brookes this season somehow

Breookes is about to get banned so its a bit of a moot point really.

How are the other 6 nations 4th choice tight heads looking this year?