England v South Africa, 12 November

       
ENGLAND v SOUTH AFRICA
12 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London

Live on Sky Sports 1

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

37 Played 37
12 Won 23
2 Drawn 2
23 Lost 12
592 Points 780

B. Recent Form

15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa

24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa

23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 Draw

16 June 2012
Coca-Cola Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa

9 June 2012
Mr Price Kings Park, Durban
22 – 17 to South Africa

27 November 2010
Twickenham, London
11 – 21 to South Africa

C. Teams

ENGLAND 

Mike Brown (Harlequins); Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby); George Ford (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers); Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).

Replacements: Jamie George (Saracens), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby).

SOUTH AFRICA

Willie le Roux (Canon Eagles), Ruan Combrinck (Xerox Golden Lions), Francois Venter (Toyota Free State Cheetahs), Damian de Allende (DHL Western Province), JP Pietersen (Leicester Tigers), Patrick Lambie (Cell C Sharks), Rudy Paige (Vodacom Blue Bulls); Tendai Mtawarira (Cell C Sharks), Adriaan Strauss (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Vincent Koch (Saracens), Eben Etzebeth (DHL Western Province), Lood de Jager (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Willem Alberts (Stade Francais), Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Western Province), Warren Whiteley (Docomo Red Hurricanes).

Replacements: Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Western Province), Steven Kitshoff (Bordeaux), Lourens Adriaanse (Cell C Sharks), Franco Mostert (Ricoh Black Rams), Nizaam Carr (DHL Western Province), Faf de Klerk (Xerox Golden Lions), Johan Goosen (Racing 92), Lionel Mapoe (Kubota Spears).

This is the England team I would pick.

1.Mako
2.George
3.Cole
4.Attwood
5.Launchbury
6.Hughes
7.Robshaw
8.Billy (c)

9.Care
10.Ford
11.Roko
12.Farrell
13.Joseph
14.Yarde
15.Brown

16.Marler
17.Hartley
18.Sinckler
19.Beaumont/Ewels
20.Wood
21.Youngs
22.Slade
23.Goode

In this scenario Joseph would move to wing if there is an injury. Not ideal but there's little option here.

I know Billy V was one of the vice-captains in the 6Ns (did this continue into the summer tests?), but if we bench Hartley I'd choose Care or Farrell as captain. I doubt that Jones would go back to Robshaw as captain, even as a one-off. Brown is another senior player but I don't think full-back suits being a captain.

I'd just like Billy to continue doing his (fantastic) work rather than have to worry about captaincy.

If he's fit then Hartley will start, there's no argument about it.

George is a talent, and I'd take him over Hartley, but Eddie will go with his captain, and on form Hartley brings a lot to any team.

Really wouldn't want Beaumont running out against SA. Imo he's not built for an Int rugby player, he doesn't have the weight or power to be in the tight 5 and mix with the beasts on the Int scene, same goes for Wood.

Oh yeah and, if fit and ready, I'd keep Hartley in the first XV. George's time will come.

Care or Farrell as captain? Two players I'd rather not see in the role. Especially not Farrell.

Care and Farrell have their own responsibilities. Both must focus on their basics and Farrell has his goal kicking to worry about.

If it's not Billy then I'd pick either Launchbury,Robshaw,George or Brown.

Billy is at least stoic and non controversial. Care and Farrell have had petulant moments.

Yappysnap is Hartley in form? He's not fully fit is he?

Have to go for the in form hooker which is clearly George.

As for Beaumont and Wood there's basically no choice really is there? We are truly scraping the barrell.

Funny that 2nd rows was a position of strength but 3 injuries leaves us significantly under prepared.

So one certain debut and is it 2 further liekly debuts?

I've just remembered why there's no point discussing with beshocked

Oh and I forgot about Launchbury. He'd be ok as captain too.

I think you aren't far off with that squad beshocked - I am not convinced with Yarde at the moment (but who else is there - unless May is parachuted in there).

The problem is how depleted we are for the first test - injuries will most likely be incurred playing SA, Fiji and Argentina - who is likely to be left standing against Oz?

Many more injuries to the centres and we could be calling back - Devoto, Eastmond, Hill etc.
Injuries to lock and no.7 then who do we call on then - Kitchener, Slater, Lees, Kvesic?
Injuries to wing - May, Wade, Short?

Good strength in depth but there is still a real drop in class - rarely have we seen an injury list like this before the first Nov test.

Assuming Lawes is out for this match I would pick Attwood as this is not a time to give anyone a debut. That can come a week later. For those reasons I would have Hughes on the bench as well. Rocko and May on the wings. Dylan to start as captain.

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Launchbury
Robshaw
Hughes
Vunipola

Doesn't look as good as the summer pack but it'll do (hopefully).

How's Attwood been anyone? Tbh I don't remember any one mentioning him full stop, good or bad, has he had a good season for Bath so far?

Yappysnap why do you want to weaken the pack even further than necessary? Don't understand why you would want to play someone not currently fully fit.

propdavid london I don't rate Yarde or May particularly but on the wing there are few options with Watson and Nowell out.

I thought Short managed to handle Roko well, don't know why Exeter took him off.

Beshocked, you're getting mixed up. I'm not saying Hartley should be played, in fact I expressly said I'd choose George.

But the long and the short of it is that EJ will back his captain unless Hartley can not play, he won't be benched, he'll start or he'll be unfit to make the match day 23.

George is great, but he's stuck behind the current England captain, who by all accounts from coaches an players is a fantastic captain, so he's going to have to kick his heels until a. Hartley is dropped or b. he gets captaincy experience of his own.

I've said it many times, I am worried that Jones will pick a unprepared Hartley.

I want England to win.

Ryles from the NRL coming in to assist Gustard on defeence for this match. I know nothing about him, other than his team are successful.

Pending further injuries:

Brown
Yarde
Joseph
Farrell
Roko
Ford
Youngs
Vunipola
Harrison
Robshaw
Attwood
Launchbury
Cole
Hartley
Vunipola

Marler, George, Sinckler, ???, ???, Care, ???, ???

Hard to call the bench, can see the arguments for either lock, for Hughes vs Wood (or just both the locks as both cover backrow too), for any 2 of Te'o vs Slade vs Daly vs Goode vs May (though would like one of Daly or May in there)

yappysnap wrote:How's Attwood been anyone? Tbh I don't remember any one mentioning him full stop, good or bad, has he had a good season for Bath so far?

I think he's been pretty good

Attwood has been good this season, as a biased observer I think he deserves a spot in the 23. Ewels is there for experience really you would think as the next u20 captain off the production line. He is far more of a modern lock than Attwood though, so I'm sure he will appear at some point in the future.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Attwood has been good this season, as a biased observer I think he deserves a spot in the 23. Ewels is there for experience really you would think as the next u20 captain off the production line. He is far more of a modern lock than Attwood though,  so I'm sure he will appear at some point in the future.

We have a good looking future pack too with Mako, Marler, Sinckler, George, Itoje, Ewels, Launch, Clifford, Beaumont, Billy and James Chisholm all having age on their sides

I've not seen Atwood much this season so far but he made a few good carries in the Chiefs game and he looked fairly prominent.

He was in the telegraph team of the week

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/10/31/premiership-team-of-the-weekend-who-makes-our-xv/

Annoyingly no text to back up those picks (unless I'm missing something?).

Gah! I hate websites that make you click through 'top whatever' lists!

How lazy is that?! No actual explanations!

Attwood had a very good game last weekend, and has been having a decent season, not outstanding ala Itoje, but he never lets the team down, and offers good options around the park.

He's very much in the mix IMHO.

Having seen Aus and SA playing in recent weeks I think this is a chance for England to really ram home the idea of 2nd in the world behind NZ, I'm expecting a solid win! Am I being a bit optimistic?

Yes

Why Yappy?

England looked good in Aus, SA have been showing massive weaknesses in their game in recent weeks, I see England steamrolling them a bit (I don't say that lightly either, I have the utmost respect for SA).

What nationality are you Fanster?

If I havn't already mentioned (Although pretty sure I was hammered on it when I joined), I am Welsh but bred in England.

The fact you ask highlights your ignorance, and unwillingness to discuss issues, but disregard or attack posters based on nationality.

Don't tell me, by complimenting Englands season, and optimistically thinking they will lement 2nd place in the world this AI I am somehow trolling?

hahahahahahaha

Thanks for clearing that up

If we had a fuller strength pack I'd be more confident, but I honestly still think we'll win 4 of 4 this AIs, and that Argentina may be our hardest game.

SA, we will be up for breaking the hoodoo and they aren't exactly at their best or full strength either. I don't think we can afford any more pack injuries really, but aside from the 7 issue our pack should be good enough and I think Jones will have a plan of sorts.

Aus will be tired after a really long season and a relative fall from grace.

I don't think it's an easy task at all but I don't think Fanster is being overly optimistic. This is as good a chance as we have had in a while and though injuries make it harder, we can't blame them

Very interesting game. This is not the strongest Bok side, relatively speaking and English rugby is on an upswing but it is also correct that England hasn't beaten them in exactly 10 years.

Mind you, before that cold streak England beat them 7 times in succession.

I think that with Farrell booting every penalty, England will win.

EJ has stated that he is 'cautiously optimistic ' of Lawes playing & that the balance of an Attwood/Launch 2nd row wouldn't be right as it would leave England without a middle jumper in the lineout.
Hartley will start as captain or will not be in 23.

The Boks are hurting and a wounded Bok is a dangerous one,they have
a good set piece,defence,goalkickers.
They lived with NZ for 50-60minutes and this England is very injury weakened
playing half fit players will cost them.
It will be very physical and a penalty shoot out cuts both ways Lambie is
a high percentage kicker too.

Why do keep saying it will be a penalty shoot out? I can't remember the last time that a rugby game went to a shoot out (is it penalties or drop goals anyway?) and this one can't as it isn't the world cup.

Exactly.


Let's not write the Bok off until we've played them.

Every one gets made to look silly by the AB's. they've still got more then enough to grind out a win against us. Especially with some key cogs in the pack missing. Can't over state how important the first choice locks and Hask are.

I agree that a team marshalled by Lambie is very different to one run by Janties. I wouldn't write the Boks off at all - it is a game that EJ will desperately want to win.
So too, Oz will definitely be targeting the England game as they have scores to settle there too.
It has been a while since England has played a full strength Argie team and they are much improved with Tri-Nations experiences and I too believe they will be one of the sternest of opo's.

Beshocked you won't be happy, but May will start on the left wing He's the only LW in the squad and Eddie loves him.

I'm expecting this team: Mako, Hartley, Cole, Attwood, Launchbury, Robshaw, Wood, Billy, Youngs, Ford, May, Farrell, Joseph, Roko, Brown; George, Marler, Sinckler, Lawes, Hughes, Harrison, Care, Daly

I can see a 6/2 split to take the Boks on up front.

Living with a team for 50-60 mins, even the ABs, means nothing. Italy live with teams for 50-60 mins. There was no point in the RC when I thought that SA might come close to beating NZ


I really hope we don't start Wood

HKC I don't rate Yarde particularly either so it doesn't really matter. I would want neither but with injuries being what they are, England are forced to play Yarde or May.

Just as I would not particularly want Atwood or Wood the lack of options make their promotion more understandable.

I still think the biggest worry is Hartley, England cannot be carrying a player if he's not fully fit/ lacking match fitness.

Making a player undroppable regardless of form/fitness can be problematic.

Hartley and Farrell just back ain't they? I assume Farrell is ok?

Farrell Jr has been in the starting line up 3 games in a row. I would say he's up to full match fitness now.

Doesn't seem to have any sign of a niggle either which is good.

Has Hartley played at all yet?
Harrison hasn't had much gametime either has he?

Came back at a similar time didn't they. Given there is so much doubt on Hartley you've put him on the bench beshocked; what if George is injured about 60 seconds?

Looks like Hartley got 24 minutes against Gloucester. Harrison didn't play at all.

Both Harrison and Hartley started vs Castres but of course Saints were beaten heavily.

Playing in a game doesn't necessarily mean a player is fully fit/ fully prepared.

Seems strange to play start both but the week after give one player limited game time and the other none at all.

What does Northampton getting beatne have to do with it?

Hartley captained a decent Saints side which got outclassed by Castres. It's not good enough. It suggests to me that Hartley is not yet up to full match fitness/ in good form. It's a captain's job to inspire the side. Lead by example. Castres are not a world class side, yet Saints made them look like world beaters with a result like that.

It suggests you didn't watch the game; did you? Or are you basing player performance on team result?

No I don't watch every game. Of course a player can perform well in a losing result but going by the match reports that Saints were overpowered and destroyed, a captain should take some responsibility for that.

It's not as if Saints are a bad side overwhelmed by a team with superior players. They were smashed by a side they should realistically be beating. An equivalent humiliation at international level would be like if England losing to the current French side by 30+ at Stade de France.

Saints aren't the team they used to be, I think I may watch more AP games than you...