England v South Africa, 12 November
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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England v South Africa, 12 November
First topic message reminder :
ENGLAND v SOUTH AFRICA
12 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London
Live on Sky Sports 1
Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]
A. Head to Head
37 Played 37
12 Won 23
2 Drawn 2
23 Lost 12
592 Points 780
B. Recent Form
15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa
24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa
23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 Draw
16 June 2012
Coca-Cola Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa
9 June 2012
Mr Price Kings Park, Durban
22 – 17 to South Africa
27 November 2010
Twickenham, London
11 – 21 to South Africa
C. Teams
ENGLAND
Mike Brown (Harlequins); Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby); George Ford (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers); Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).
Replacements: Jamie George (Saracens), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby).
SOUTH AFRICA
Willie le Roux (Canon Eagles), Ruan Combrinck (Xerox Golden Lions), Francois Venter (Toyota Free State Cheetahs), Damian de Allende (DHL Western Province), JP Pietersen (Leicester Tigers), Patrick Lambie (Cell C Sharks), Rudy Paige (Vodacom Blue Bulls); Tendai Mtawarira (Cell C Sharks), Adriaan Strauss (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Vincent Koch (Saracens), Eben Etzebeth (DHL Western Province), Lood de Jager (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Willem Alberts (Stade Francais), Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Western Province), Warren Whiteley (Docomo Red Hurricanes).
Replacements: Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Western Province), Steven Kitshoff (Bordeaux), Lourens Adriaanse (Cell C Sharks), Franco Mostert (Ricoh Black Rams), Nizaam Carr (DHL Western Province), Faf de Klerk (Xerox Golden Lions), Johan Goosen (Racing 92), Lionel Mapoe (Kubota Spears).
ENGLAND v SOUTH AFRICA
12 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London
Live on Sky Sports 1
Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]
A. Head to Head
37 Played 37
12 Won 23
2 Drawn 2
23 Lost 12
592 Points 780
B. Recent Form
15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa
24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa
23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 Draw
16 June 2012
Coca-Cola Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa
9 June 2012
Mr Price Kings Park, Durban
22 – 17 to South Africa
27 November 2010
Twickenham, London
11 – 21 to South Africa
C. Teams
ENGLAND
Mike Brown (Harlequins); Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby); George Ford (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers); Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).
Replacements: Jamie George (Saracens), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby).
SOUTH AFRICA
Willie le Roux (Canon Eagles), Ruan Combrinck (Xerox Golden Lions), Francois Venter (Toyota Free State Cheetahs), Damian de Allende (DHL Western Province), JP Pietersen (Leicester Tigers), Patrick Lambie (Cell C Sharks), Rudy Paige (Vodacom Blue Bulls); Tendai Mtawarira (Cell C Sharks), Adriaan Strauss (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Vincent Koch (Saracens), Eben Etzebeth (DHL Western Province), Lood de Jager (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Willem Alberts (Stade Francais), Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Western Province), Warren Whiteley (Docomo Red Hurricanes).
Replacements: Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Western Province), Steven Kitshoff (Bordeaux), Lourens Adriaanse (Cell C Sharks), Franco Mostert (Ricoh Black Rams), Nizaam Carr (DHL Western Province), Faf de Klerk (Xerox Golden Lions), Johan Goosen (Racing 92), Lionel Mapoe (Kubota Spears).
Last edited by George Carlin on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 5:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
George Carlin- Admin
- Posts : 15780
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : KSA
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
You think it's as trivial as that. Fair enough. I've actually never asked Farrell for an autograph.
Fair enough I stand corrected. Okay Harrison it is then on the bench.
Fair enough I stand corrected. Okay Harrison it is then on the bench.
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Could well be, don't know if you won't say. On the pitch he's been fine as captain the couple of times he's had it.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31374
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
You are entitled to your opinion no 7 & 1/2. I will endeavor to be more chilled and accommodating of other's opinions. Fair enough if that's how you feel. I wouldn't want Farrell as England captain but if that's what you want then that's what you want.
I would like to see the changes I suggested but I just have to see it as a pleasant surprise if they happen.
I would like to see the changes I suggested but I just have to see it as a pleasant surprise if they happen.
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Beaumont was injury cover for Lawes during the week - they obviously felt it was worth keeping Beaumont involved on matchday for the experience etc. Tommy Taylor was also there on matchday with the water bottles.
If they are 100% fit for Fiji then I would expect Beaumont to be released back to Sale.
While the rest of the series squad will return to camp and prep for the next game - guys like Goode, Slade, Harrison etc. Pushing for selection.
If EJ is going to test anyone then I would like to think that he will do that for the Fiji game - they may not be starting but guys like Sinkler might get more than 10mins.
Maybe Daly will get another start or perhaps he will rotate with Joseph.
Which England wings are best to deal with Nadolo?
If they are 100% fit for Fiji then I would expect Beaumont to be released back to Sale.
While the rest of the series squad will return to camp and prep for the next game - guys like Goode, Slade, Harrison etc. Pushing for selection.
If EJ is going to test anyone then I would like to think that he will do that for the Fiji game - they may not be starting but guys like Sinkler might get more than 10mins.
Maybe Daly will get another start or perhaps he will rotate with Joseph.
Which England wings are best to deal with Nadolo?
propdavid_london- Posts : 3546
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : London
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
propdavid_london wrote:
Which England wings are best to deal with Nadolo?
Ones who can tackle.
TightHEAD- Posts : 6192
Join date : 2014-09-25
Age : 62
Location : Brexit Island.
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
TightHEAD wrote:propdavid_london wrote:
Which England wings are best to deal with Nadolo?
Ones who can tackle.
Nowell is injured though....
Probably Roko in the circumstances.
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Congratulations to England.
Score may not have blown out as much as I predicted, but it was comprehensive in every aspect.
Coetzee is clueless, his defensive organisation pathetic, and ball retention non existent.
Score may not have blown out as much as I predicted, but it was comprehensive in every aspect.
Coetzee is clueless, his defensive organisation pathetic, and ball retention non existent.
Biltong- Moderator
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Location : Twilight zone
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
I don't want to be disrespectful, but I don't think England need to make too many special allowances against Nadolo/ Fiji. I guess what I am saying is, the game won't be decided by who we pick on the wings and/or their tackling ability.
I think it is a good opportunity to bring in some fresh faces.
As others have said, a good chance to get Jamie George, a new openside and perhaps Hughes into the game. I don't expect massive changes, in order to keep some for of continuity (the way I see it the rest of the year is building toward that final clash with Australia).
I think it is a good opportunity to bring in some fresh faces.
As others have said, a good chance to get Jamie George, a new openside and perhaps Hughes into the game. I don't expect massive changes, in order to keep some for of continuity (the way I see it the rest of the year is building toward that final clash with Australia).
Cumbrian- Posts : 5605
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Age : 41
Location : Bath
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Biltong wrote:Congratulations to England.
Score may not have blown out as much as I predicted, but it was comprehensive in every aspect.
Coetzee is clueless, his defensive organisation pathetic, and ball retention non existent.
Cheers.
From an opposition's point of view it was difficult to know what to make of the Springboks. They seemed to have a game plan to disrupt us at the lineout (evidenced by the player selection), but proceeded not to compete at all. There was plenty of power, but as you say, no defensive organisation. Falling for the Youngs' dummy twice was criminal. I have come to see what you mean about the coaches. The talent is there, but they just looked confused half of the time.
I hope that it get's sorted out soon, I don't like see the Springboks like this (except when they play us!).
Cumbrian- Posts : 5605
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 41
Location : Bath
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
If England can turn Hughes into a good international back up no 8 for Billy it will make England even more of a fearsome prospect. I'd start the process vs Fiji.
Cumbrian what would your side vs Fiji look like?
What should England do about Slade in your opinion?
Cumbrian what would your side vs Fiji look like?
What should England do about Slade in your opinion?
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
PDST is a great lock, just seems crazy to put him out of position where he could be exposed in that way
Smacked of Lawes at 6
Smacked of Lawes at 6
BamBam- Posts : 17226
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Age : 35
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
England are never going to address the backup issue at 12 if no one else is really tried there.
The fact that Teo is picked over Slade to me means that EJ likes the idea of a game and tactical change - being able to swap from a 2 ball playing 10-12s to a ball playing 10- hard running 12 makes sense.
Slade comes in if there is an injury to either Ford or Farrell - Teo takes the bench spot because he offers a different style of play to EJ.
My point though is that we will never know about Slade until he is tested. The same goes for others in perceived positions with less depth - 12, 7, 15.
The fact that Teo is picked over Slade to me means that EJ likes the idea of a game and tactical change - being able to swap from a 2 ball playing 10-12s to a ball playing 10- hard running 12 makes sense.
Slade comes in if there is an injury to either Ford or Farrell - Teo takes the bench spot because he offers a different style of play to EJ.
My point though is that we will never know about Slade until he is tested. The same goes for others in perceived positions with less depth - 12, 7, 15.
propdavid_london- Posts : 3546
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : London
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
propdavid london what would you do?
Do you think Harrison and T'eo could step up?
England could get away with not playing a ball player at 12 if Goode is at 15. Then again Goode needs to answer his critics.
I think a new 12 has to start vs Fiji.
Do you think Harrison and T'eo could step up?
England could get away with not playing a ball player at 12 if Goode is at 15. Then again Goode needs to answer his critics.
I think a new 12 has to start vs Fiji.
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Cumbrian wrote:Biltong wrote:Congratulations to England.
Score may not have blown out as much as I predicted, but it was comprehensive in every aspect.
Coetzee is clueless, his defensive organisation pathetic, and ball retention non existent.
Falling for the Youngs' dummy twice was criminal.
PSDT getting sold the dummy twice was evidence of a structural problem rather than an individual error. On both occassions he had no defense covering his inside...if he commits to tackling the scrumhalf then England create an overlap on the outside (a la their first try), and if he commits to drifting wide to prevent the overlap a huge gap is created on his inside...in fact England attacked this structural weakness (between the backline defense and the fringe defense) all day long. The bok defensive patterns were non-existant, and have been all year.
Mr Fishpaste- Posts : 771
Join date : 2011-07-26
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
BamBam wrote:PDST is a great lock, just seems crazy to put him out of position where he could be exposed in that way
Smacked of Lawes at 6
I assume PDST is a combination of PSDT and PTSD. Understandably so.
I'd think the decision to play PSDT at 6 was worse than playing Lawes there. Firstly because Lawes is a bit more mobile, and secondly because PSDT had Willem Alberts on the other flank. Whatever his merits, Alberts is not the man to make up for a lack of mobility elsewhere.
jbeadlesbigrighthand- Posts : 719
Join date : 2011-06-30
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Yeah its tricky Beshocked - Drop Farrell to accommodate another 12 means Ford has to step up and take the conversions. We have seen that his confidence really takes a knock when things down go his way.
So it might be a case of dropping Ford, shifting Farrell to 10 to start a different 12. Teo or Slade.
As you say, Goode has his critics too.
On Teo or Harrison - I still don't know Beshocked! Harrison presumably still isn't trusted - or else why bring in Wood (and Harrison hasn't had much gametime at club either).
So it might be a case of dropping Ford, shifting Farrell to 10 to start a different 12. Teo or Slade.
As you say, Goode has his critics too.
On Teo or Harrison - I still don't know Beshocked! Harrison presumably still isn't trusted - or else why bring in Wood (and Harrison hasn't had much gametime at club either).
propdavid_london- Posts : 3546
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Location : London
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
I wouldn't call it dropping Ford, I would call it resting Ford for the Argentina game.
Same with other "dropped" players.
Alternatively England could rest Farrell, give Ford kicking practice and play a new 12 with Ford.
Certainly doesn't show confidence in Harrison that's for sure! Picking Wood.
This is the game though when Jones could move away from Lancaster-esque selections.
Picking George,Teo and Hughes would be moving away from the Lancaster way of doing things.
Same with other "dropped" players.
Alternatively England could rest Farrell, give Ford kicking practice and play a new 12 with Ford.
Certainly doesn't show confidence in Harrison that's for sure! Picking Wood.
This is the game though when Jones could move away from Lancaster-esque selections.
Picking George,Teo and Hughes would be moving away from the Lancaster way of doing things.
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:BamBam wrote:PDST is a great lock, just seems crazy to put him out of position where he could be exposed in that way
Smacked of Lawes at 6
I assume PDST is a combination of PSDT and PTSD. Understandably so.
I'd think the decision to play PSDT at 6 was worse than playing Lawes there. Firstly because Lawes is a bit more mobile, and secondly because PSDT had Willem Alberts on the other flank. Whatever his merits, Alberts is not the man to make up for a lack of mobility elsewhere.
yes I meant PSDT!!
BamBam- Posts : 17226
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Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
beshocked wrote:You are entitled to your opinion no 7 & 1/2. I will endeavor to be more chilled and accommodating of other's opinions. Fair enough if that's how you feel. I wouldn't want Farrell as England captain but if that's what you want then that's what you want.
I would like to see the changes I suggested but I just have to see it as a pleasant surprise if they happen.
Not about what I want but if Farrell is the only vice captain left on the pitch it'll be him made captain full stop.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31374
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
beshocked wrote:If England can turn Hughes into a good international back up no 8 for Billy it will make England even more of a fearsome prospect. I'd start the process vs Fiji.
Cumbrian what would your side vs Fiji look like?
What should England do about Slade in your opinion?
Team I would pick, with the players that are left in the camp (I think much the same as yours):
01. Joe Marler
02. Jamie George
03. Kyle Sinkler
04. Courtney Lawes
05. Joe Launchbury
06. Chris Robshaw
07. Teimana Harrison
08. Nathan Hughes
09. Danny Care
10. George Ford
11. Marland Yarde
12. Ben Te'o
13. Elliott Daly
14. Jonny May
15. Alex Goode
16. Tommy Taylor
17. Ellis Genge
18. Dan Cole
19. Dave Attwood
20. Ben Youngs
21. Henry Slade
22. Jon Joseph
23. Mike Haley
Give a rest to the two Vunipolas Cole, Hartley, Youngs, Farrell and Brown. Bench positions excepted.
Goode to start but Haley to get at least a half (I might have mentioned I'm a huge fan)
Slade is a talent, but he seems (last time I checked) to be having a difficult second season. I'd have him in the squad for Fiji to give him some experience, but monitor his progress at Exeter for the rest of the season with a view to taking him to Argentina in the summer.
Cumbrian- Posts : 5605
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Age : 41
Location : Bath
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Cumbrian wrote:beshocked wrote:If England can turn Hughes into a good international back up no 8 for Billy it will make England even more of a fearsome prospect. I'd start the process vs Fiji.
Cumbrian what would your side vs Fiji look like?
What should England do about Slade in your opinion?
Team I would pick, with the players that are left in the camp (I think much the same as yours):
01. Joe Marler
02. Jamie George
03. Kyle Sinkler
04. Courtney Lawes
05. Joe Launchbury
06. Chris Robshaw
07. Teimana Harrison
08. Nathan Hughes
09. Danny Care
10. George Ford
11. Marland Yarde
12. Ben Te'o
13. Elliott Daly
14. Jonny May
15. Alex Goode
16. Tommy Taylor
17. Ellis Genge
18. Dan Cole
19. Dave Attwood
20. Ben Youngs
21. Henry Slade
22. Jon Joseph
23. Mike Haley
Give a rest to the two Vunipolas Cole, Hartley, Youngs, Farrell and Brown. Bench positions excepted.
Goode to start but Haley to get at least a half (I might have mentioned I'm a huge fan)
Slade is a talent, but he seems (last time I checked) to be having a difficult second season. I'd have him in the squad for Fiji to give him some experience, but monitor his progress at Exeter for the rest of the season with a view to taking him to Argentina in the summer.
Thanks for responding.
I would be happy with that 23.
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Not gonna happen, though, is it? Eddie's made it pretty clear that he feels the main squad needs to tighten up a lot before it hits Argentina and Australia, so we might see a couple of swaps of bench and starting position, we might see Roko for Yarde, and we might see some earlier substitutions but we won't see wholesale change.
To take one example, Hartley would clearly benefit from more game time, so I think it's very unlikely George will start, regardless of what beshocked thinks.
To take one example, Hartley would clearly benefit from more game time, so I think it's very unlikely George will start, regardless of what beshocked thinks.
Poorfour- Posts : 6407
Join date : 2011-10-01
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Poorfour depends if you want to think short term or long term. It cost Lancaster his job when he made poor decisions. Now I think Jones is doing so well at the moment that there will be posters who won't question any of Jones' selections, I think that's wrong.
I agree that it's important to be ready for Argentina and Australia, if Jones starts Hartley in every game, then we'll be back in the same position we were at the RWC with lack of gametime for back up hookers.
I think it's much more important that George starts than Hartley. A start for George is long overdue.
England should not rely heavily on individual players. England are in a good position at lock because we have 4 good options.
Another strong no 8 needs to be found and we hope that's Hughes.
England must also try other options at 12.
Fiji won't be a walkover but then again England should win quite comfortably.
If you don't make changes now then when?
I agree that it's important to be ready for Argentina and Australia, if Jones starts Hartley in every game, then we'll be back in the same position we were at the RWC with lack of gametime for back up hookers.
I think it's much more important that George starts than Hartley. A start for George is long overdue.
England should not rely heavily on individual players. England are in a good position at lock because we have 4 good options.
Another strong no 8 needs to be found and we hope that's Hughes.
England must also try other options at 12.
Fiji won't be a walkover but then again England should win quite comfortably.
If you don't make changes now then when?
beshocked- Posts : 14849
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Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
There's the question of how much benefit does a 1 off game or chance add? Would Daly now not hugely benefit ffom 4 starts?
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31374
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
It's about having two first choices instead of 1. It's about building the squad and improving the overall strength.
At lock I feel like we have 4 first choices now.
Yes perhaps Daly would benefit.
A one off game is better than not being trusted by the coaches at all.
Resting players also protects and prevents them from picking up injuries before playing in subsequent games.
I think it's important not to overwork players.
At lock I feel like we have 4 first choices now.
Yes perhaps Daly would benefit.
A one off game is better than not being trusted by the coaches at all.
Resting players also protects and prevents them from picking up injuries before playing in subsequent games.
I think it's important not to overwork players.
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
I'm sure we won't see wholesale changes and also think that we shouldn't. The side has already been disrupted by injuries and we want to maintain as much consistency as we can with some tweaking as necessary.
Changing more than half the side doesn't tell you as much about the players coming in as it's not really a fair reflection on how they fit into the system.
Changing more than half the side doesn't tell you as much about the players coming in as it's not really a fair reflection on how they fit into the system.
Cyril- Posts : 7162
Join date : 2012-11-16
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Think getting down to 2 is very doable, but the grief Lancaster gets is not having 3rd and 4th.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31374
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
True Cyril, surely something like just bringing in George, keep the same front row, bring in Roko for May or Goode. Wholesale won't teach us as much?
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31374
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
beshocked wrote:Poorfour depends if you want to think short term or long term. It cost Lancaster his job when he made poor decisions. Now I think Jones is doing so well at the moment that there will be posters who won't question any of Jones' selections, I think that's wrong.
I agree that it's important to be ready for Argentina and Australia, if Jones starts Hartley in every game, then we'll be back in the same position we were at the RWC with lack of gametime for back up hookers.
I think it's much more important that George starts than Hartley. A start for George is long overdue.
England should not rely heavily on individual players. England are in a good position at lock because we have 4 good options.
Another strong no 8 needs to be found and we hope that's Hughes.
England must also try other options at 12.
Fiji won't be a walkover but then again England should win quite comfortably.
If you don't make changes now then when?
I don't think it depends on whether Poorfour is thinking long term or not. He wasn't giving you his ideas on selection he was giving you Eddie Jones'.
cascough- Posts : 938
Join date : 2016-11-10
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
No 7&1/2 wrote:Think getting down to 2 is very doable, but the grief Lancaster gets is not having 3rd and 4th.
Lancaster didn't have any good proven back up to Hartley or Billy.
Jones needs to fix this. Lancaster's trust in T.Youngs and Morgan was misplaced.
Didn't trust George either - he was his 5th choice hooker after Hartley,Youngs,Webber and LCD.
Lancaster couldn't cobble together an ideal 7 choice or inside centre either. Let alone 2 or 3.
Jones must not make the mistakes Lancaster made.
Ideally a good back up for Cole must be developed too.
cascough well if it's Eddie Jones idea it's not a good one.
England do not need to play a full strength team to beat Fiji.
I am all for keeping a core of the same team but making changes to use the squad, not just relying on individuals.
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Youngs and Billy was the back up for Morgan. You don't mean that he didn't have back up you mean he didn't pick your favourites. There is a difference.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31374
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
You can think it's a bad idea if you like, that's your prerogative of course. But that's not the point being made here. Based on what Jones has said, there won't be wholesale changes. With that in mind, who would be your 23 for the Fiji game?
Let's limit the number of changes to 5 (inc the bench)...
Let's limit the number of changes to 5 (inc the bench)...
cascough- Posts : 938
Join date : 2016-11-10
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
cascough I've already said what I think my 23 would be.
no 7 &1/2 ? Hartley was always Lancaster's 1st choice. Billy was the best no 8 in England from 2015 till now, Morgan might have been selected ahead of Billy in the RWC but that just shows the folly of Lancaster.
It's not about picking my favourites or not. It's about getting it wrong which Lancaster did - failing in the RWC is a bit of a clue.....
I would hardly call Hughes a favourite of mine - he just happens to be the 2nd best 8, T'eo certainly wouldn't fit that either but England need to build depth.
no 7 &1/2 ? Hartley was always Lancaster's 1st choice. Billy was the best no 8 in England from 2015 till now, Morgan might have been selected ahead of Billy in the RWC but that just shows the folly of Lancaster.
It's not about picking my favourites or not. It's about getting it wrong which Lancaster did - failing in the RWC is a bit of a clue.....
I would hardly call Hughes a favourite of mine - he just happens to be the 2nd best 8, T'eo certainly wouldn't fit that either but England need to build depth.
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Good win for England. I had 7/2 on a SA win. Thought it was worth a pop. It definitely wasn't. England are well organised and seriously powerful. Northern Hemisphere is where it is at now.
GunsGerms- Posts : 12542
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 44
Location : Ireland
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Would have been better to bet on Ireland.....
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Yes, you said Lancaster didn't have strength in depth to 2nd choice he did; you just don't agree with his choices. There's a difference to not giving anyone time and iving people time which you didn't agree with.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31374
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
beshocked wrote:cascough I've already said what I think my 23 would be.
Yes but lovely as it was, it included 13 changes, which isn't going to happen.
So...
With Eddie Jones' comments ringing in your ears, what would your 23 be?
Or to put it another way, if you could only make 5 changes to the 23, where do you consider it most crucial that ENG experiment?
cascough- Posts : 938
Join date : 2016-11-10
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
George, Goode and Rokoduguni in for me. I'd have Slade and Haley as the bench changes.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31374
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
cascough wrote:beshocked wrote:cascough I've already said what I think my 23 would be.
Yes but lovely as it was, it included 13 changes, which isn't going to happen.
So...
With Eddie Jones' comments ringing in your ears, what would your 23 be?
Or to put it another way, if you could only make 5 changes to the 23, where do you consider it most crucial that ENG experiment?
Fine....
1.Mako
2.George
3.Cole
4.Lawes
5.Launchbury
6.Robshaw
7.Wood
8.Hughes
9.Youngs
10.Ford
11.May
12.Teo
13.Daly
14.Yarde
15.Goode
16.Marler
17.Hartley
18.Sinckler
19.Attwood
20.Harrison
21.Care
22.Farrell
23.Joseph
The 5 changes are George,Hughes,Harrison,Goode and Teo
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
I suspect we'll see a strong side start but subs will be made early.Ie Sinkler getting a full second half.
Geordie- Posts : 28849
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Attwood has been sent back to Bath after an injection to a pre-existing knee injury that flared up.
Billy V is a doubt after getting a knock on Saturday.
I hope that George, Hughes and Slade (at 12) get a start at the weekend.
I know Slade probably won't but I'd like to see him get a chance at playing Farrell's role. Farrell on the bench could give him a chance to get one at 10 too.
Billy V is a doubt after getting a knock on Saturday.
I hope that George, Hughes and Slade (at 12) get a start at the weekend.
I know Slade probably won't but I'd like to see him get a chance at playing Farrell's role. Farrell on the bench could give him a chance to get one at 10 too.
king_carlos- Posts : 12735
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Ankh-Morpork
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Why on earth would we try Goode out for the umpeenth time, and against the Fijians of all teams. One line break and we'll see articulated lorries turn to chase their flyers with more haste
BamBam- Posts : 17226
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 35
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Why on earth try Goode you say because he's been consistently in better club form than Brown for at least the last season but hasn't had a proper run with Jones in charge yet.
If May can be tried out for the umpteenth time I think Goode should be given another chance too.
It's called rewarding good form. I know that's an alien concept to you.
I am glad if Billy has a slight knock. It forces Jones to pick Hughes at 8 hopefully. Means Billy can be fresh for Argentina.
If May can be tried out for the umpteenth time I think Goode should be given another chance too.
It's called rewarding good form. I know that's an alien concept to you.
I am glad if Billy has a slight knock. It forces Jones to pick Hughes at 8 hopefully. Means Billy can be fresh for Argentina.
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
If Hughes performs well I'm assuming you'd want him to carry on at 8 vs Argentina?
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31374
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Why do you say that? I'd certainly have him on the bench vs Argentina.
Billy has been in great form, no need to replace him unless he's not fully fit.
Billy has been in great form, no need to replace him unless he's not fully fit.
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Would be going only on rewarding Hughes if he plays well and obviously with him being ruled out of this game with a slight knock I thought you may not consider him 100%? Plus Hughes needs starts before we blood the 3rd choice 8.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31374
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
I would hope Billy would be fully fit for Argentina if it's only a slight knock.
I agree Hughes needs a start hence why Fiji is an ideal opponent.
What are you having trouble understanding?
I agree Hughes needs a start hence why Fiji is an ideal opponent.
What are you having trouble understanding?
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
Nothing. Just searching for consistency in your arguments.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31374
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: England v South Africa, 12 November
king_carlos wrote:Attwood has been sent back to Bath after an injection to a pre-existing knee injury that flared up.
Billy V is a doubt after getting a knock on Saturday.
I hope that George, Hughes and Slade (at 12) get a start at the weekend.
I know Slade probably won't but I'd like to see him get a chance at playing Farrell's role. Farrell on the bench could give him a chance to get one at 10 too.
Considering what he did to Etzebeth you'd have to think he took some damage too.
lostinwales- lostinwales
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Location : Out of Wales :)
George Carlin- Admin
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