Scotland v Australia, 12 November

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SCOTLAND v AUSTRALIA
12 November 2016
14:30 GMT
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on BBC One

Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
ARs: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

29 Played 29
9 Won 20
0 Drawn 0
20 Lost 9
364 Points 706

B. Recent Form

18 October 2015
Twickenham
35-34 to Australia

23 November 2013
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
15 – 21 to Australia

5 June 2012
Hunter Stadium, Newcastle
6 – 9 to Scotland

21 November 2009
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 8 to Scotland

25 November 2006
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
15 – 44 to Australia

20 November 2004
Hampden Park, Glasgow
17 – 31 to Australia

C. TEAMS:

SCOTLAND 

Stuart Hogg, Sean Maitland, Huw Jones, Alex Dunbar, Tim Visser, Finn Russell, Greig Laidlaw (capt); Allan Dell, Ross Ford, Zander Fagerson, Richie Gray, Jonny Gray, John Barclay, Hamish Watson, Ryan Wilson.

Replacements: Fraser Brown, Gordon Reid, Moray Low, Grant Gilchrist, John Hardie, Ali Price, Pete Horne, Rory Hughes.

AUSTRALIA

Israel Folau, Dane Haylett-Petty, Tevita Kuridrani, Reece Hodge, Henry Speight, Bernard Foley, Will Genia; Scott Sio, Stephen Moore (capt), Sekope Kepu, Rory Arnold, Adam Coleman, David Pocock, Michael Hooper, Lopeti Timani.

Replacements: Tolu Latu, Tom Robertson, Allan Alaalatoa, Rob Simmons, Will Skelton, Dean Mumm, Nick Phipps, Quade Cooper.

Hardie is definitely of a different class to anyone other openside that we have and he was amazing in the last World Cup. Trust Vern on this.

Incidentally, I also think that John Barclay shows up better for Scotland than he does with the Scarlets - he has spoken quite eloquently about his arrogance about getting chosen so young and the fact that he then spent a while in the international wilderness means that he takes call ups for granted far less often.

George Carlin wrote:Hardie is definitely of a different class to anyone other openside that we have and he was amazing in the last World Cup. Trust Vern on this.

Incidentally, I also think that John Barclay shows up better for Scotland than he does with the Scarlets - he has spoken quite eloquently about his arrogance about getting chosen so young and the fact that he then spent a while in the international wilderness means that he takes call ups for granted far less often.

I totally disagree with this, I'm not convinced he's a great open-side.

No doubt he's a thunderous tackler with great work-rate but imo he's largely ineffectual at the breakdown & brings little in terms of attacking/link play.

Barclay is far better at the dark-arts around the breakdown & seems to offer himself as a carrier more often but lacks that yard of pace.

Watson is comfortably the best attacking option but hasn't had a chance to prove whether he can make the step up to Test level yet.

Tackling:  Hardie > Watson = Barclay
Breakdown: Barclay > Watson > Hardie
Attacking: Watson > Barclay > Hardie

If I was comparing them to other players in terms of style of play;

Hardie - Favaro
Barclay - McCaw
Watson - Hooper

George Carlin wrote:Hardie is definitely of a different class to anyone other openside that we have and he was amazing in the last World Cup. Trust Vern on this.

Incidentally, I also think that John Barclay shows up better for Scotland than he does with the Scarlets - he has spoken quite eloquently about his arrogance about getting chosen so young and the fact that he then spent a while in the international wilderness means that he takes call ups for granted far less often.

Not sure about that George....Scott Williams was interviewed very recently and he said that Barclay is the best player at Scarlets.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Hardie is definitely of a different class to anyone other openside that we have and he was amazing in the last World Cup. Trust Vern on this.

Incidentally, I also think that John Barclay shows up better for Scotland than he does with the Scarlets - he has spoken quite eloquently about his arrogance about getting chosen so young and the fact that he then spent a while in the international wilderness means that he takes call ups for granted far less often.

Not sure about that George....Scott Williams was interviewed very recently and he said that Barclay is the best player at Scarlets.

So that just shows how well he turns up for Scotland.

Ah Jesus the memories, George. Thanks for that. Roy and HG. Love those two guys. Are they still on the go?

reallybored wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Hardie is definitely of a different class to anyone other openside that we have and he was amazing in the last World Cup. Trust Vern on this.

Incidentally, I also think that John Barclay shows up better for Scotland than he does with the Scarlets - he has spoken quite eloquently about his arrogance about getting chosen so young and the fact that he then spent a while in the international wilderness means that he takes call ups for granted far less often.

I totally disagree with this, I'm not convinced he's a great open-side.

No doubt he's a thunderous tackler with great work-rate but imo he's largely ineffectual at the breakdown & brings little in terms of attacking/link play.

Barclay is far better at the dark-arts around the breakdown & seems to offer himself as a carrier more often but lacks that yard of pace.

Watson is comfortably the best attacking option but hasn't had a chance to prove whether he can make the step up to Test level yet.

Tackling:  Hardie > Watson = Barclay
Breakdown: Barclay > Watson > Hardie
Attacking: Watson > Barclay > Hardie

If I was comparing them to other players in terms of style of play;

Hardie - Favaro
Barclay - McCaw
Watson - Hooper

Can't we just have that back row with Barclay at 8? That'd be a hoot!

Hardie has a pretty good try scoring record too - 1 in 3 for Edinburgh and 1 in 4 for Scotland, which is better than a lot of backs!

I agree that the praise of Hardie has probably been a bit over-enthusiastic but I also think he really was outstanding in the World Cup and put in decent shifts during the 6N too. If the Lions tour was this summer he would have been a front runner to go on it, albeit in a highly competitive position.

What I would say about him is that we have looked a better team with him in it - whether or not he carries as well as Watson or gets turnovers as much as Barclay, he is a player we are very fortunate to have.

Again it is a good debate to have - Hardie, Watson or Barclay!

RDW_Scotland wrote:
I agree that the praise of Hardie has probably been a bit over-enthusiastic but I also think he really was outstanding in the World Cup and put in decent shifts during the 6N too.  If the Lions tour was this summer he would have been a front runner to go on it, albeit in a highly competitive position.

It certainly has and it especially was during the world cup. Even the slightest disagreement with that drew angst and bitterness from one-eyed Scots... He's a good player though, and if that form continues I'd like to see him in the Lions squad - especially with his S15 experience.

mikey_dragon wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:
I agree that the praise of Hardie has probably been a bit over-enthusiastic but I also think he really was outstanding in the World Cup and put in decent shifts during the 6N too.  If the Lions tour was this summer he would have been a front runner to go on it, albeit in a highly competitive position.

It certainly has and it especially was during the world cup. Even the slightest disagreement with that drew angst and bitterness from one-eyed Scots... He's a good player though, and if that form continues I'd like to see him in the Lions squad - especially with his S15 experience.

If it was this summer he would have benefited from a lack of other stand out 7s too from the established 'big names' - Warbuton has been a bit 'meh', Tupiric was injured, O'Brien was injured and Haskell was the only real standout (even if he isn't really a 7).

I bet come next summer all of them will be back to their bests and there will be a huge selection dilemma/argument!

Still, Hardie would be a great addition to the squad but by then it might have more to do with finding the best back-row balance. CJ stander definitely has to be in too.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:
I agree that the praise of Hardie has probably been a bit over-enthusiastic but I also think he really was outstanding in the World Cup and put in decent shifts during the 6N too.  If the Lions tour was this summer he would have been a front runner to go on it, albeit in a highly competitive position.

It certainly has and it especially was during the world cup. Even the slightest disagreement with that drew angst and bitterness from one-eyed Scots... He's a good player though, and if that form continues I'd like to see him in the Lions squad - especially with his S15 experience.

If it was this summer he would have benefited from a lack of other stand out 7s too from the established 'big names' - Warbuton has been a bit 'meh', Tupiric was injured, O'Brien was injured and Haskell was the only real standout (even if he isn't really a 7).

I bet come next summer all of them will be back to their bests and there will be a huge selection dilemma/argument!

Fingers Crossed!

Speaking of all things backrow related

SecretFly wrote:Ah Jesus the memories, George.  Thanks for that.  Roy and HG.  Love those two guys.  Are they still on the go?  

God, I hope so:

RDW_Scotland wrote:What I would say about him is that we have looked a better team with him in it - whether or not he carries as well as Watson or gets turnovers as much as Barclay, he is a player we are very fortunate to have.

Again it is a good debate to have - Hardie, Watson or Barclay!

That's a tough argument to counter but it did also coincide with Cotter having an extended period with the squad pre World Cup and most people were pretty miffed that Barclay missed out.

My major problem with Hardie is the lack of turnovers, both from a defensive and attacking aspect, that's an open-sides bread & butter imo.  

A proper ground-hog can dominate a match and make the oppositions life hell, I've never seen Hardie produce that type of performance.  

And it's not like he's been on the wrong side of the ref or been unlucky, he just doesn't get into the right positions to really influence the breakdown.

We've got such a dangerous back-line, it's a shame we rarely see them attacking a team in transition after losing the ball, al la the All Blacks.


For me, the back-row I'd like to see come the 6 Nations:

6 - Denton
7 - Barclay / Watson
8 - Bradbury / Ashe / Strauss

I can't give specific examples but I definitely remember Hardie making turnovers for Scotland.  He's no Pocock in that regard but he does make them.

He is also excellent at the back of a maul and controls things very well - that's where most of his tries have come from!

As for your backrow, again the number 6 is the problem jersey - I personally don't think Denton is the answer for that! if he's going to play it needs to be number 8.

Bradbury has filled in the blindside spot well for Edinburgh a few times this season.

And we still have CDP to make it back to full fitness/form.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I can't give specific examples but I definitely remember Hardie making turnovers for Scotland.  He's no Pocock in that regard but he does make them.

He is also excellent at the back of a maul and controls things very well - that's where most of his tries have come from!

As for your backrow, again the number 6 is the problem jersey - I personally don't think Denton is the answer for that! if he's going to play it needs to be number 8.

Bradbury has filled in the blindside spot well for Edinburgh a few times this season.

And we still have CDP to make it back to full fitness/form.

Just don't trust old dildo fingers at 8, never had the ball skills to be a top number 8.

However his work-rate & breakdown improved massively last season ( imo he was comfortably our best breakdown forward at the RWC ), he's big enough to be a 3rd line-out option (6'5) and a very destructive ball carrier. Plus, it's probably where he'll be playing for Bath.

Shame that Ashe has had such a rotten run of injuries, not the flashiest number 8 but always willing & able to make the hard-yards.

Bradbury looks like a cracking prospect too.

I don't like Denton at 6. Never a grafter. Even with improvements, he is competing solely for 8 just like Wilson. Bradbury and CDP are able to do both. I expect them, Barclay, Strauss and Harley to fight it out.

Ashe is a permanently crocked player in the mould of Gilchrist. He should not be near the Scotland side until he puts together a good few games.

Denton at 6 is plain daft!

You need your 6 to be mowing down opposition ball carriers with frequency, not hanging out with the backs waiting for turnover ball so you can run into someone before you reach the gain line or knock the ball on

I think that Denton will have difficulty getting into the full Scotland set up again.

Cornel du Preez is everything that Denton isn't - dynamic, confident, physically dominating and resilient. Hamish Watson is the natural understudy to Hardie. Bradbury is a perfect looking 6.5. The Mad Crayon can play 6, 7 or 8. Add Ashe back into the mix and it's hard to see where Denton's game time is going to come from. He also needs to move from Bath unless they can find a way to use him better.

Denton and Gilchrist have the same problem - physically impressive for Scots, but with poor technique and arguably hampered by a lack of quality coaching.

Glad Watson has been improving but I would still have Hardie or Barclay at 7 before him. I love Watsons physicality but hardie is faster and has better ball skills. He wins turnovers, tackles hard and makes good decisions. Fully expect Watson to feature but I would definitely say hardie to start vs wallabies.

I certainly wouldn't agree that Hardie is faster than Watson - Watson is faster than a lot of backs!

RDW_Scotland wrote:I certainly wouldn't agree that Hardie is faster than Watson - Watson is faster than a lot of backs!

I'm faster than a lot of the Edinburgh Backs!

I'm a massive fan of Watson but I wouldn't start him against Oz, throwing him straight in against Pooper isn't necessary when we have someone like Hardie available and with experience in bigger games already. He does deserve some good gametime during this series, his form has been very good and we need to test him properly at international level. I'd love to see him start against both Argentina and Georgia, I'm convinced he can make a real impact at this level - he's an animal around the field!

Hardie needs to raise his game considerably though if he is selected against the Aussies, he has been well off his usual level so far this season.

Watson strikes me as the sort of player who could make the step up with considerable ease.

A bit like Ashe but better.

Obviously he hasn't played much recently but I'm not sure that I've seen anything from Ashe that would suggest he's got the potential that Bradbury has. To me Bradbury looks to have genuine pace for a big guy, a quality that's not generally common of many Scottish forwards.

Got to agree on Ashe - he's never been a massive standout for Glasgow never mind Scotland, and I just don't think he's big enough to be a test number 8 (although I'm sure someone will show me his 'official' stats saying he's 8ft and 34st)

Ashe is 6'4 and around 17st.

Dont know if it's just Scottish fans or rugby fans in general but I feel we're a bit quick at dismissing players.

Ashe is only 23 (Watson is 25) and has been unlucky with injuries but he could still develop into a top player. Kieran Read made his debut at 23 and wasn't a permanent fixture until the end of the next season.

Always think about Lee Byrne when people write off players, was pretty meh during his early career then came on to a run of form around 26/27 and was considered one of the best in the world for a period.

Don't get me wrong I think Ashe is a decent player and will have a good career as a pro, but if we're talking about regularly doing better in the 6N, turning over the odd SH team and doing well in World Cups we really need a higher caliber of player than him!

If these posts are in reply to mine, I merely stated that Ashe made the step up fine. I posted a while back after his first cap that he fitted in well and didn't seem overawed or out of his depth.

I am just saying that for those saying Watson is not experienced enough to play against Australia, I disagree. I think he would be a real asset and bring his Edinburgh form with him....and then some.

We have a real problem with players who quite clearly are playing brilliantly, but won't be picked because they're too young or haven't played International rugby before.

We don't do it at domestic or Pro 12 level so why on earth should we do it at Scotland level?

We have plenty of players with experience who still don't perform for the national team even now so what's the harm in putting someone in with great form, enthusiasm to do well and represent their country? They'll learn a lot more playing against a tier 1 side than playing against Romania!!

There are a few selection decisions that I simply have never understood - Like ~gilcrest and Swinson. Never seen either player do anything that marks them out as anything but a journeyman pro.

I think Watson should play. He suits the high risk offoading fast paced game Scotland need to play. I'll accept bench against Aus with starts in the other two games. I think Watson is a really exciting player who can change games

I think sometimes coaches get stuck either for or against certain players - a bit blinkered.

High risk offloading fast paced game vs the Aussies? You think that's wise?

It's not how I would go about it but if that's what Scotland want to do then good luck.

I thought Scotland almost beat the Aussies in the RWC thanks to successful counter attacking, feeding off Aussie mistakes and putting pressure on them.

Important to also win your lineouts.

I'm guessing the team will be announced tomorrow, so here is my bet of what it will be (I am assuming Dickinson and Reid are unavailable - Reid starting if he is fit, Dickinson on the bench if he is fit):

1 Dell
2 Ford
3 Fagerson
4 Gray
5 Gray
6 Barclay
7 Hardie
8 Strauss

9 Laidlaw
10 Russell
11 Seymour
12 Dunbar
13 Jones
14 Maitland
15 Hogg

Subs - Allan, Brown, Low, Gilchrist, Watson, Pyrgos, Horne, Bennett

beshocked wrote:High risk offloading fast paced game vs the Aussies? You think that's wise?

It's not how I would go about it but if that's what Scotland want to do then good luck.

I thought Scotland almost beat the Aussies in the RWC thanks to successful counter attacking, feeding off Aussie mistakes and putting pressure on them.

Important to also win your lineouts.

Same thing really. Take the risks, take chances. Its the way Glasgow and Scotlandhave been playing for a while.

You are right about the lineouts tho

George Carlin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Ah Jesus the memories, George.  Thanks for that.  Roy and HG.  Love those two guys.  Are they still on the go?  

God, I hope so:

This clip is more appropriate than ever today.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'm guessing the team will be announced tomorrow, so here is my bet of what it will be (I am assuming Dickinson and Reid are unavailable - Reid starting if he is fit, Dickinson on the bench if he is fit):

1 Dell
2 Ford
3 Fagerson
4 Gray
5 Gray
6 Barclay
7 Hardie
8 Strauss

9 Laidlaw
10 Russell
11 Seymour
12 Dunbar
13 Jones
14 Maitland
15 Hogg

Subs - Allan, Brown, Low, Gilchrist, Watson, Pyrgos, Horne, Bennett

That's all excellent except for the bloody front row. Seeing Dell start makes me want to yog.

He was decent in the last club game I saw him play in. Its a terribly inexperienced front row tho

Poor Americans. No matter how often they save the world from Alien Invasions (I know coz I seen real footage of it many times in the movies) - they still get a bum deal from ungrateful Aussie sons-of-bitches!



Signed Donald.

Excited for this game, albeit I think Oz will win fairly comfortably - I just can't see us being up to speed and playing at test match intensity, it's always our problem in the early games of series/competitions.

I would personally have started the young, Edinburgh backrow player who has been tearing up trees this year, but not the one everybody has been talking about here. Bradbury has been the stand out backrow player in the country for me, he is a proper 6 in a way that Barclay or the Crayon will never be. Big, athletic and gets through a power of work Other than that, my team would have been the same as RDW's although how Gilchrist has managed to be picked over Toolis is beyond me.

SecretFly wrote:

Poor Americans.  No matter how often they save the world from Alien Invasions (I know coz I seen real footage of it many times in the movies)  - they still get a bum deal from ungrateful Aussie sons-of-bitches!



Signed Donald.

Very true, I spotted James Hilterbrand playing for the US against the NZ Maori earlier this week.

RDW's selection looks spot on for me. Vern has shown himself more than willing to stand by his beliefs, so he'll bring Gilchrist in despite his current form  and leave Matt Scott out, despite being in the form of his life. This suggests to me that Batman will play, as will Hardie. Probably Bluto at 8 since Vern omitted Barcs from the World Cup. In the backs the only questions are Jones or the messiah and Visser or Maitland. With Furra Lined able to cover 15 as well as 10 then I think Visser will miss out and Jones/Bennett will share a game.

P.s. Leicester win the Premier League, Nigel Farage is regarded as a serious politician, Labour are in meltdown because their leader believes in socialism, a buffoon who made a living writing xenophobic lies about the EU for the Torygraph is now Foreign Secretary and Americans elect as president the biggest charlatan since PT Barnum. It's the end of days.

P.p.s. As Anatole France said, "The people have spoken, the bastards"

Wilson is probably a more likely bench spot as he 'technically' covers all 3 positions but I really, really hope Watson gets a chance.

jimbopip wrote:RDW's selection looks spot on for me. Vern has shown himself more than willing to stand by his beliefs, so he'll bring Gilchrist in despite his current form  and leave Matt Scott out, despite being in the form of his life. This suggests to me that Batman will play, as will Hardie. Probably Bluto at 8 since Vern omitted Barcs from the World Cup. In the backs the only questions are Jones or the messiah and Visser or Maitland. With Furra Lined able to cover 15 as well as 10 then I think Visser will miss out and Jones/Bennett will share a game.

P.s. Leicester win the Premier League, Nigel Farage is regarded as a serious politician, Labour are in meltdown because their leader believes in socialism, a buffoon who made a living writing xenophobic lies about the EU for the Torygraph is now Foreign Secretary and Americans elect as president the biggest charlatan since PT Barnum. It's the end of days.

P.p.s. As Anatole France said, "The people have spoken, the bastards"

Jim, just remember that Vern was the guy who selected Barcs and Hardie together in the first place and he must surely have noticed that this was one of the reasons we scored so much possession against good sides?

We know that Vern likes Horne as cover for 10 as a well as centre, so he will bench. I think that given the amount of time they spent playing together for Scotland it makes more sense to start Can'tScoreWon'tScore with Seymour and Hogg rather than Visser. For me, that makes the backs on the bench 21 Pyrgos 22 Horne 23 Bennett/Jones (depending on who starts).

I cannot fathom for the life of me why Gilchrist would bench instead of Swinson and if GG starts instead of either Gray, I am genuinely going to lose my sh!t.

It's interesting. What would your attitude be if you only had 8 games left as a head coach? What would you think your role was? To give some younger players a crack? Or to focus grimly on getting the 'W'?

Usual warm, soapy booby, genital manipulation stuff from the Wallabies in the press about how much of a challenge Scotland will be and how much they have improved yadda yadde. This is fine, but it's always achingly generalised and it's fairly clear that most of the Wallabies squad wouldn't be able to pick Greig Laidlaw (or any of his colleagues) out of a police line up. Granted, this would be excusable if it was Ryan Wilson - he's perfectly at home in police line-ups.

Rumours on Twitter last night suggest the line-up will be

Hogg, Seymour, Jones, Dunbar, Maitland, Russell, Laidlaw
Strauss, Watson, Wilson, Gray, Gray, Fagerson, Ford, Dell


Can someone explain the logic of Dell ahead of Allan to me?  I may be wrong but doesn't Allan have more pro 12 experience, seeing as he's been in & out of Glasgow's side for past couple of season whereas Dell has been stuck behind Dicko & Sutherland.

Both look like good prospects but why is Cotter going for the more 'inexperienced' one?

Dell has had quite a lot of gametime this season and has done fairly well, Allan not so much gametime.

I don't think either are ready for international rugby though.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Dell has had quite a lot of gametime this season and has done fairly well, Allan not so much gametime.

I don't think either are ready for international rugby though.

With Fagerson starting I'd have preferred to see Jon Welsh involved.

reallybored wrote:Rumours on Twitter last night suggest the line-up will be

Hogg, Seymour, Jones, Dunbar, Maitland, Russell, Laidlaw
Strauss, Watson, Wilson, Gray, Gray, Fagerson, Ford, Dell


Can someone explain the logic of Dell ahead of Allan to me?  I may be wrong but doesn't Allan have more pro 12 experience, seeing as he's been in & out of Glasgow's side for past couple of season whereas Dell has been stuck behind Dicko & Sutherland.

Both look like good prospects but why is Cotter going for the more 'inexperienced' one?

Would be amazed if Hardie is jettisoned completely as Cotter likes his favourites and Hardie can only play at 7, unlike say Barclay or Wilson, which makes him much less sense as a bench option.

I think that the idea would be for Ford and Dingly Dell to work their arses off and then replace them with an all-Glasgow front row with 25 to go in the hope that familiarity will help see Fagerson home.

I would also be amazed if Hardie didn't start given what Cotter has been saying about him, but maybe that is just mind games with the media.

Either way, we'll find out at lunchtime today.

If Wilson had any respect for us on this board, he'd retire immediately.

For some reason, I can't help liking Wilson - yes, he's a walking diplomatic incident, but you can't doubt that he gives his all. Maybe he isn't international class, but its always useful to have someone who can play across the backrow. We also shouldn't forget how bloody good he was against Italy earlier this year.

I'm hoping Cotter is a little bit brave and picks Huw Jones at 13. That would allow Horne at 22 and either Bennett or Taylor (probably the latter) at 23.

I like Wilson for Glasgow - there's not much to dislike about a player who clearly cares a lot for his club and puts in optimal effort every game, but I class him in the same category as Ashe. If we are going to progress as an International team and improve our results we're needing a higher caliber of player!