Scotland v Australia, 12 November

       
SCOTLAND v AUSTRALIA
12 November 2016
14:30 GMT
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on BBC One

Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
ARs: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

29 Played 29
9 Won 20
0 Drawn 0
20 Lost 9
364 Points 706

B. Recent Form

18 October 2015
Twickenham
35-34 to Australia

23 November 2013
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
15 – 21 to Australia

5 June 2012
Hunter Stadium, Newcastle
6 – 9 to Scotland

21 November 2009
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 8 to Scotland

25 November 2006
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
15 – 44 to Australia

20 November 2004
Hampden Park, Glasgow
17 – 31 to Australia

C. TEAMS:

SCOTLAND 

Stuart Hogg, Sean Maitland, Huw Jones, Alex Dunbar, Tim Visser, Finn Russell, Greig Laidlaw (capt); Allan Dell, Ross Ford, Zander Fagerson, Richie Gray, Jonny Gray, John Barclay, Hamish Watson, Ryan Wilson.

Replacements: Fraser Brown, Gordon Reid, Moray Low, Grant Gilchrist, John Hardie, Ali Price, Pete Horne, Rory Hughes.

AUSTRALIA

Israel Folau, Dane Haylett-Petty, Tevita Kuridrani, Reece Hodge, Henry Speight, Bernard Foley, Will Genia; Scott Sio, Stephen Moore (capt), Sekope Kepu, Rory Arnold, Adam Coleman, David Pocock, Michael Hooper, Lopeti Timani.

Replacements: Tolu Latu, Tom Robertson, Allan Alaalatoa, Rob Simmons, Will Skelton, Dean Mumm, Nick Phipps, Quade Cooper.

I noticed with the Wales/Aus head to head you listed 8 games, but you've only listed 6 here. Did you forget? Here they are:

19 Jun 2004 Australia 34 - 13 Scotland
Stadium Australia
Sydney, Australia

13 Jun 2004 Australia 35 - 15 Scotland
Colonial Stadium
Melbourne, Australia



I think Scotland can do better than Wales did against Aus; I'd like to see them win after the disappointment that was Joubert at the RWC. I'm backing your lads. The Irish win has given me hope for the future of rugby in the NH - hopefully that rubs off on you lot too .

mikey_dragon wrote:I noticed with the Wales/Aus head to head you listed 8 games, but you've only listed 6 here. Did you forget? Here they are:

19 Jun 2004 Australia 34 - 13 Scotland
Stadium Australia
Sydney, Australia

13 Jun 2004 Australia 35 - 15 Scotland
Colonial Stadium
Melbourne, Australia



I think Scotland can do better than Wales did against Aus; I'd like to see them win after the disappointment that was Joubert at the RWC. I'm backing your lads. The Irish win has given me hope for the future of rugby in the NH - hopefully that rubs off on you lot too .

Just couldn't be arsed doing them Mikey and also, we got duffed up the bum in both matches, so I didn't want to depress myself.

I agree with you - Scotland are very fast and loose now and that was how we came so close to beating them last October - a completely different game plan to Wales.

With Laidlaw's goalkicking - who knows what will happen. A lot of the Scottish players have recent experience of beating the Wallabies and some players have beaten them twice in a Scotland shirt.

I am a little concerned. Our pack was on top in the march last year. But I do not expect that to be the case

We rode our luck last year and would need that again

I really think they will beat us by over 20

I hope wrong

mikey_dragon wrote:I noticed with the Wales/Aus head to head you listed 8 games, but you've only listed 6 here. Did you forget? Here they are:

19 Jun 2004 Australia 34 - 13 Scotland
Stadium Australia
Sydney, Australia

13 Jun 2004 Australia 35 - 15 Scotland
Colonial Stadium
Melbourne, Australia



I think Scotland can do better than Wales did against Aus; I'd like to see them win after the disappointment that was Joubert at the RWC. I'm backing your lads. The Irish win has given me hope for the future of rugby in the NH - hopefully that rubs off on you lot too .

Abercwmboi 2nd vets XV could do better than we did yesterday.

Not really sure how this one will go, Australia will be on a high and Scotland will have seen what they can do if you don't make your first up tackles.

I expect Scotland to play a very different set of tactics to Wales. I expect Scotland to counter from deep sometimes, to mix up the kicking game but not to kick too much and I expect Scotland to play a high risk game of offloads and going for interceptions. I also think Scotland are faster both of thinking and of feet than Wales.

However I do also believe Aus will win and win well. Scotland will turn the ball over and make mistakes - the price of a high risk game and I think the missing players in the front row will hurt us as will a couple of poor selections. WTF in Gilcrest doing in a Scotland shirt?

3 tries to 5 Aus win

Afraid if Oz play like they did in the first half against against the old dragons. we're going to get humped!

But likewise if they play like they did in the 2nd half then we stand a chance!

I think the Aussies have to be strong favourites but we do have the players to cause them problems. Aggression and intensity have to be the buzz words in training this week. The Scotland players should watch the manner in which Ireland played the ABs, and hit those rucks with the same ferocity from kick-off right through to the final whistle. No soft scores.

Select for a fast and loose game as well. Can we have both Watson and Hardie in the team like Aus have Pocock and Hooper?

Strong tight five, fast back row, speedsters throughout the backs?

Got to get their ten under pressure when they have the ball, got to mix it up and use width when we have it. aus defended fairly narrow against Wales and Wales missed several overlaps thru slow ball and not getting it wide enough quickly enough. Do not kick deep to their fullback - make it contestable kicks.

TJ wrote:Select for a fast and loose game as well.  Can we have both Watson and Hardie in the team like Aus have Pocock and Hooper?

Strong tight five, fast back row, speedsters throughout the backs?

Got to get their ten under pressure when they have the ball, got to mix it up and use width when we have it.  aus defended fairly narrow against Wales and Wales missed several overlaps thru slow ball and not getting it wide enough quickly enough.  Do not kick deep to their fullback - make it contestable kicks.

100%. Unfortunately this is become a bad habit in Scottish rugby.

TJ wrote:I expect Scotland to play a very different set of tactics to Wales.  I expect Scotland to counter from deep sometimes, to mix up the kicking game but not to kick too much and I expect Scotland to play a high risk game of offloads and going for interceptions.  I also think Scotland are faster both of thinking and of feet than Wales.  

However I do also believe Aus will win and win well.  Scotland will turn the ball over and make mistakes - the price of a high risk game and I think the missing players in the front row will hurt us as will a couple of poor selections.  WTF in Gilcrest doing in a Scotland shirt?

3 tries to 5 Aus win

We had tactics ?

Keep the faith people.

We aren't just going to beat the Wallabies, we're going to grab them by their pussys.
This isn't just going to be a win, it's going to be the biggliest win ever.

Reminds me of a US tv show that asked Trump supporter 'you keep saying make America great again - can you tell me when America was 'great'?'

None of them could answer.

So I'll ask the same question - when was Murrayfield last great??

There's your answer!

You weren't even born then it was that long ago!

I remember going to Murrayfield in the late 80's/early 90's when we were a good team!

Atmosphere
Wins
Geecks/Telfer
Sole/Armstrong/Hastings (x2)/Calder/Jeffrey

Ahhhhhhhhhh those were the days!

Murrayfield has always been great. Just the teams that make it their home are Poopie

Personally I'm in a confident mood about this weekend.

We've got a point to prove.

Don't think we should play a fast and loose game or select two open-sides to counteract Pooper.  

1  Sutherland    ( better scrummager than Reid imo )
2  Ford  ( inexperienced TH, so bulk & experience is more important than Brown's open play )
3  Fagerson  ( christ i hope it goes well for the young man & that they have the 1st scrum )
4  Gray  ( goldilocks is better than Gilchrist, but so is Toolis )
5  Gray  ( next season's captain )
6  Wilson  ( always gets stuck in, more bulk & carrying than Barclay or Harley )
7  Watson  ( surely Cotter can't ignore his form, adds so much more than Hardie )
8  Strauss  ( with current injuries, unopposed at 8 )

9  Laidlaw  ( no complaints but I hope he doesn't go into slow motion again )
10  Russell  ( obvious )
11  Maitland  ( been scoring tries for Saracen but it's close with Viss for me )
12  Dunbar  ( his form hasn't be great but at least he's fit!! )
13  Bennett  ( Taylor has barely played this season, Jones may be in form but Bennett looks reinvigorated again )
14  Seymour  ( obvious )
15  Hogg  ( obvious )

16  Brown  ( better than McInally )
17  Reid  ( good guy to have off the bench, like a sh!tter Mako Vunipola )
18  Low  ( worrying to hear he's played more LH than TH for Exeter )
19  Swinson  ( will be Gilchrist but what can you do )
20  Barclay  ( gives good coverage, experience and enables us to change dynamic of back-row )
21  Pyrgos  ( obvious )
22  Horne  ( obvious )
23  Visser  ( looks sharp for Quins )

Sutherland is definitely injured, Reid is potentially injured!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Sutherland is definitely injured, Reid is potentially injured!

In that case, start Allan with Dell on the bench.

And Ford definitely has to start.

Bennett isn't in the squad, is he? He played for Glasgow in that awful horlicks of a performance against the Scarlets.

GC, I think and Furra Lined played to get a bit more match fitness. The World Class One hasn't started too many games post Rio so probably needed 80 minutes. I think he should start, but the Jones boy's experience against Super 983 opposition may get him the nod. However, I was surprised that Barcs started for Scaahlettes. Hardie-Wilson-Watson Bach row?

Just reminding myself of who is in the official Scotland squad:

Backs: Mark Bennett (Glasgow), Alex Dunbar (Glasgow), Stuart Hogg (Glasgow), Peter Horne (Glasgow), Damien Hoyland (Edinburgh), Huw Jones (Stormers), Greig Laidlaw (capt) (Gloucester), Sean Maitland (Saracens), Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow), Finn Russell (Glasgow), Tommy Seymour (Glasgow), Duncan Taylor (Saracens), Tim Visser (Harlequins).

Forwards: John Barclay (Scarlets), Fraser Brown (Glasgow), Allan Dell (Edinburgh), Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh), Zander Fagerson (Glasgow), Ross Ford (Edinburgh), Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh), Jonny Gray (Glasgow), Richie Gray (Toulouse), John Hardie (Edinburgh), Rob Harley (Glasgow) Moray Low (Exeter), Stuart McInally (Edinburgh), Gordon Reid (Glasgow), Josh Strauss (Glasgow), Tim Swinson (Glasgow), Hamish Watson (Edinburgh), Ryan Wilson (Glasgow).

I like ReallyBored's team.

I go back and forth on the loose forward trio. Hardie and Strauss are nailed on. With Pooper on the field, I think that I would like Barclay instead of Wilson as that combination worked well in the world cup. I cannot decide whether Wilson's spikey temperament and combativeness is a liability or a benefit. I think that I would stick the mighty crayon on the bench and offer him all the kebabs he can eat if he doesn't tw@t someone.

Scotland by 10

Oz are no where near as good as a redundant Wales made them look, they'll be full of false bravado and not ready for a sterner test. Lambs to the slaughter boys!

I'm just very concerned about our front row. We're likely to have to put out our 4th and 5th choice looseheads and a 20 year old tighthead. Ford will almost certainly start for his scrum bulk and experience (even if he can't actually hook).

We did so well in the world cup because we smashed them up front - I don't think we'll have that this time.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'm just very concerned about our front row. We're likely to have to put out our 4th and 5th choice looseheads and a 20 year old tighthead. Ford will almost certainly start for his scrum bulk and experience (even if he can't actually hook).

We did so well in the world cup because we smashed them up front - I don't think we'll have that this time.

Me too - it is a fully blown front row crisis.

What is Dickinson's status? Is he in the squad even though he is formally injured? This is an entirely separate worry from him being completely undercooked against a side that proved clearly last week that they are sharp and test match ready. His experience could be critical if he comes on with 20 to go (which he will almost certainly have to) but I don't think that it is sustainable to start him.

Most of this match will be about whether we can keep in sight of Australia after the first half an hour. If we're still in contention then anything can happen. A lot of our backline are playing well.

Dickinson hasn't played all season but is classed as not being too far away injury wise - I really don't think he should be rushed back in for this game. I know we want to win this badly but I don't think it is worth risking him aggravating his injury and being ruled out for the rest of the season.

I think it is a hamstring injury too and you can't come back until they are fully fixed - something I know from personal experience!

if he really is 'not far away' I think we should forget about him for the AIs and he targets Edinburgh's next game in a few weeks times, with an aim to getting him fit for the 6N (when it really matters).

George Carlin wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'm just very concerned about our front row. We're likely to have to put out our 4th and 5th choice looseheads and a 20 year old tighthead. Ford will almost certainly start for his scrum bulk and experience (even if he can't actually hook).

We did so well in the world cup because we smashed them up front - I don't think we'll have that this time.

Me too - it is a fully blown front row crisis.

What is Dickinson's status? Is he in the squad even though he is formally injured? This is an entirely separate worry from him being completely undercooked against a side that proved clearly last week that they are sharp and test match ready. His experience could be critical if he comes on with 20 to go (which he will almost certainly have to) but I don't think that it is sustainable to start him.

Most of this match will be about whether we can keep in sight of Australia after the first half an hour. If we're still in contention then anything can happen. A lot of our backline are playing well.

I don't think rushing Dickinson back from a hamstring injury is a smart move at his age or stage of his career.

Been impressed with Alex Allan but it's a big step up, at least with the Gray brothers and Ford there's plenty of shunt in the front-five.

Really surprised Jon Welsh wasn't included in the squad considering the injury list and his versatility.

I can't see why Horne is "obvious" he was utter mince against the Scarletts.

God I would love if Scotland beat Australia. All the Aussies are talking about in the last few weeks is the real possibility of completing a grand slam despite being whitewashed in their summer tour, having an average rugby championship struggling against Ireland and Scotland in their last games vs those teams. They have only won four of their last 11 games.

Where do Australian's get their confidence from? Id be very very surprised if they get a slam.

Wales were absolutely dire v Australia and were missing their head coach. I expect the game v Scotland to be much closer.

BS Guns. No one has been talking like a GS's at all likely. Honestly. No one. Cheika has lost the confidence of the crowd and we lost 7 of 10 tests. The weekend was good but everyone recognises the Welsh had a terrible test missing half a dozen of their best players.

Gunsgerms on the contrary some people are underestimating Australia.

Australia have lost to NZ 3 times, England 3 times and SA once.

They are not losing to bad teams. Also they will be coming into this game with match practice.

Scotland on the other hand, this will be their first game.

I was impressed with Australia's physicality vs Wales, do Scotland have the muscle to overpower Australia?

Obviously dealing with the Australian backrow will perhaps be the biggest challenge. Do Scotland have the firepower?

Wales might have not played well but they still had a lot of good well known players. Too much downplaying of the Aussies I feel.

Also fortunes can change quickly. In the 2015 RWC, the SH sides dominated with Australia making a final albeit just controversially squeezing past Scotland.

boomeranga wrote:BS Guns. No one has been talking like a GS's at all likely.  Honestly.  No one.  Cheika has lost the confidence of the crowd and we lost 7 of 10 tests. The weekend was good but everyone recognises the Welsh had a terrible test missing half a dozen of their best players.

My uncle is on the ARU board and he is. There is also a truck load of reference to the grand slam in the Australian media and Bernard Foley himself says Australia will do it.

http://www.rugby.com.au/news/2016/02/08/wallabies-announce-2016-grand-slam-tour

http://www.supersport.com/rugby/article.aspx?Id=1959804

http://www.kwesesports.com/rugby/country/australia/foley-backs-grand-slam-hopes/

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/wallabies-can-win-first-grand-slam-since-1984-says-bernard-foley-20161023-gs8pg0.html

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/wallabies-grand-slam-quest-off-to-perfect-start-with-328-win-over-wales-in-cardiff-20161105-gsix9b.html

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/australia-rugby/wallabies-to-chase-history-as-they-embark-on-fresh-grand-slam-tour-20151112-gkxiui.html

http://www.theroar.com.au/2009/06/18/wallabies-announce-end-of-year-grand-slam-tour/

Frustrating about Welsh. Him starting with Fagerson on the bench are not bad options. Low is the odd one for me.

I actually have faith that Allan and Dell will be okay in the scrum and not be embarrassed off the pitch. Would prefer to only have to blood one at a time but if Scotland want to make it as a top tier nation, we need to prove there is depth.

I would probably go Barclay/Watson/Strauss with Hardie on the bench for the back row. Hardie has not been good this season though he is the best option. Besides at the hour mark, if Scotland are chasing the game, we can go to a 3 openside model and outdo the Aussies at their own game. The breakdown will be a glorious mess.

beshocked wrote:Gunsgerms on the contrary some people are underestimating Australia.

Australia have lost to NZ 3 times, England 3 times and SA once.

They are not losing to bad teams. Also they will be coming into this game with match practice.

Scotland on the other hand, this will be their first game.

I was impressed with Australia's physicality vs Wales, do Scotland have the muscle to overpower Australia?

Obviously dealing with the Australian backrow will perhaps be the biggest challenge. Do Scotland have the firepower?

Wales might have not played well but they still had a lot of good well known players. Too much downplaying of the Aussies I feel.

Also fortunes can change quickly. In the 2015 RWC, the SH sides dominated with Australia making a final albeit just controversially squeezing past Scotland.

except for Wales they will not be playing bad teams on their "Grand Slam Tour" either. Ireland beat them in their last match and have just beat the ABs who hammered Australia. They also struggled against Scotland in their last game benefiting from some real choice SH refereeing and England who they also play just hammered them three times at home.

If ever a slam was unlikely for Australia who rarely complete a slam it is this year.

You want to check some of the dates for those articles and what it's actually saying.

boomeranga wrote:BS Guns. No one has been talking like a GS's at all likely.  Honestly.  No one.  Cheika has lost the confidence of the crowd and we lost 7 of 10 tests. The weekend was good but everyone recognises the Welsh had a terrible test missing half a dozen of their best players.

No excuses from us, it's a combination of Union and coach incompetence plus player-ineptitude that we lost. Aus can only play what's in front of them and they won pretty well. It's been a while since Aus got a grand slam European tour, having been unlucky in the odd fixture in the past I think they're overdue one.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You want to check some of the dates for those articles and what it's actually saying.

Only a couple are from previous years which I threw in to show that this is something we get almost as default regardless of form from Aussies.

The ARU doesn't speak for us. They promote their biggest earner because the game here is skint.

Bernard Foley says in that article: "Yeah I think it's definitely possible," Foley said. "I think for us this year has been challenging, we can't sugar-coat it or anything else. It's been a real challenge. The tour is something that's going to be really exciting, a lot of guys doing their first spring tour. The fact that it's a grand slam is massive. [There will be] no easy Test matches but I think the best thing is the resilience of this squad. We've worked our way through a lot this year." It's not exactly cocky in my view.

Gunsgerms you call Wales bad yet they were 2nd in the 6 nations.

Neither Ireland nor England are unbeatable. England didn't easily crush Australia, it was a tough tour and had a full strength team. Ireland have lost games this year.

Surely Ireland have just shown that nothing is guaranteed? You can be a favourite but you must perform.

Scotland might well beat Australia but seems like the Scottish fans are worried about the frontrow. The Australian strength has generally been their backrow.

4/11 looks bad but as I said - the opposition they have been playing has been very strong.

beshocked wrote:Gunsgerms you call Wales bad yet they were 2nd in the 6 nations.

Neither Ireland nor England are unbeatable. England didn't easily crush Australia, it was a tough tour and had a full strength team. Ireland have lost games this year.

Surely Ireland have just shown that nothing is guaranteed? You can be a favourite but you must perform.

Scotland might well beat Australia but seems like the Scottish fans are worried about the frontrow. The Australian strength has generally been their backrow.

4/11 looks bad but as I said - the opposition they have been playing has been very strong.

Wales are bad now. They were dire v Australia. As a fan I was very disappointed. That said they have lost their head coach so maybe it was to be expected.

and yes I agree Ireland and England aren't that far ahead. By the time the 6 nations comes around it will be between those three teams for sure. However, the seedings are usually finalised at the end of this year. Is that not the same this time around? a tough November could see Wales drop out of the top 8 again.

Yes the opposition they played are strong but the opposition they will be playing for their supposed "Grand Slam Tour" they havent exactly excelled against either, that is the point.

There'd be an uproar from Oz if Foley was interviewed and said "I don't think we'll win our games coz we're a bit poo at the moment"

All professional sportsmen will say that they are aiming to win each game they play. If they aren't then they'll find themselves out on their ear!

The Oz confidence is rightly there at the moment as their handling on Sat was sublime at times. Coupled with our very leaky backline defense, you can see why the Ozzies can be confident of a win!

I'm not saying they will beat everyone. But they've got to at least say they are confident of doing so!

The main issue for all home sides in this autumn tour is a lack of recent test match intensity.

Wales' issue wasn't that their players have suddenly become poor but that their most recent game time experience was against Pro 12 sides.

Australia should beat Scotland on paper but I am much happier with our ability to just give things a crack and see what happens.

If we have both Barclay and Hardie on the pitch then I am not worried about the breakdown. Just to be clear, Wilson is a fast link man and an enthusiastic carrier but he is not a forager and turnover winner in the same way that these first two are. I would love to see Hamish Watson be selected because his form has been excellent but in all honestly he still sits behind these guys in the pecking order.

Vern has basically said that Hardie will start regardless of how good Watson's form has been - he says Hardie is a 'test match animal'

reallybored wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'm just very concerned about our front row. We're likely to have to put out our 4th and 5th choice looseheads and a 20 year old tighthead. Ford will almost certainly start for his scrum bulk and experience (even if he can't actually hook).

We did so well in the world cup because we smashed them up front - I don't think we'll have that this time.

Me too - it is a fully blown front row crisis.

What is Dickinson's status? Is he in the squad even though he is formally injured? This is an entirely separate worry from him being completely undercooked against a side that proved clearly last week that they are sharp and test match ready. His experience could be critical if he comes on with 20 to go (which he will almost certainly have to) but I don't think that it is sustainable to start him.

Most of this match will be about whether we can keep in sight of Australia after the first half an hour. If we're still in contention then anything can happen. A lot of our backline are playing well.

I don't think rushing Dickinson back from a hamstring injury is a smart move at his age or stage of his career.

Been impressed with Alex Allan but it's a big step up, at least with the Gray brothers and Ford there's plenty of shunt in the front-five.

Really surprised Jon Welsh wasn't included in the squad considering the injury list and his versatility.

Jack Cosgrove was outstanding against Wiehahn Herbst on Friday night. I know he's not in the squad and greener than green, but this injury crisis at loosehead prop is, at the very least, a short term crisis. Dickinson, Sutherland, Reid, Dell, Allan and now Cosgrove hints at greater relative depth than we've probably ever had in that position.

Still, we're up the proverbial creak in these AIs. It's just a shame the Aussies don't still use Matt Dunning.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Vern has basically said that Hardie will start regardless of how good Watson's form has been - he says Hardie is a 'test match animal'

I'm always an advocate of selecting on form, but it's also true to say that some players are better suited to international rugby than others, and club form for some players just doesn't translate onto the international stage. I'm not for one minute putting Hamish Watson in that category, he hasn't been given that chance and I'd argue he deserves at least one cap in these AIs, but take someone like NDL for example. His Edinburgh form frequently justified him being selected for Scotland, but he just couldn't handle the extra pressure of Test rugby and more often than not let himself down.

In Hardie's favour is the fact that he came over to Scotland the summer before the world cup, played a few warm-up games then went on to be a start player at the highest stage you can get - he definitely is a 'test mach animal'.

He hasn't stood out so far for Edinburgh this season and hasn't had a consistent run of games, but in Vern we trust...