PGA Tour: America is all Effed up: Notes from the Ballwasher

What an awful, awful night.
The end.

Donald Trump, the only man who when in interview/speech mode, makes 9C look articulate, spontaneous and witty.

The baying mob of USA USA USA chants is like something out of Nuremburg.

Assassination attempt within a year? Would imagine so.

You offering Super?


What a Poopie day to be non white or not heterosexual in the USA.

Remember in history class when all the kids asked how the Germans could vote for Hitler? Now the US public knows.

I imagine the bible thumping loons on the PGA are loving it. All their prayers have been answered.

Democracy.

Not all it's cracked up to be now, is it?

I guess the racists, sexists, bigots etc that voted for #Brexit or Trump would argue democracy works perfectly.


Can someone of a Trump or #Brexit bent explain to me what has been so terrible about the progressive nature of politics in the west over the last 30 years that has made you vote to penalize immigrants, black people, gay people, women and others?

kwini

I would ask you if a Trump win would make you consider coming "home" but its not like there is a better situation to come back to.

McLaren wrote:I guess the racists, sexists, bigots etc that voted for #Brexit or Trump would argue democracy works perfectly.


Can someone of a Trump or #Brexit bent explain to me what has been so terrible about the progressive nature of politics in the west over the last 30 years that has made you vote to penalize immigrants, black people, gay people, women and others?

Mac, get past your Socialist Worker agenda for a viewpoint and try and take in the bigger picture. It doesn't do your argument any good to keep going back to things which are not part of the reason they voted how they did.

Super

Are you saying you don't think Trump and #Brexit are a backlash against progressive politics?

McLaren wrote:...Can someone of a Trump or #Brexit bent explain to me what has been so terrible about the progressive nature of politics in the west over the last 30 years that has made you vote to penalize immigrants, black people, gay people, women and others?

I didn't vote to leave the EU, but...

IMO, this is essentially to do with a daft belief that if the status quo is shaken up, there'll suddenly be lots more jobs for Britains in Britain/Americans in America. Kick out Johnny Foreigner and suddenly all those defunct industries in the hometowns will cough up a myriad of jobs for you, the 'natives'. There's also some obvious nasty xenophobia thrown in as well and the media, at least in the U.K., have a lot to answer for in that regard.

We'll have to see what Trump does, but if he's hounded like the U.K. Brexiteer politicians are appearing to be re. a hard Brexit, no immigration etc, coz that's what they promised, then it'll be interesting to see what he does re. the U.S.-Mexico wall he promised, the Special Prosecutor to chase Hilary that he promised, the instant repeal of 'Obamacare' that he promised etc etc etc. More worryingly than just the Trump victory, the GOP control both Houses as well as having Trump for POTUS. If he's more moderate than it appeared up front, he may well do OK (depending on his cabinet/advisors) but I don't think that excuses his campaign. It'll be interesting to see what the next POTUS campaign is like in 4 years.
I expect we'll be treated to quite a few skeletons from Trump's closet over the next 4 years such as his tax records, construction deal details, financing, inappropriate behaviour re. women etc etc. Could be good comedy...

navyblueshorts wrote:Kick out Johnny Foreigner and suddenly all those defunct industries in the hometowns will cough up a myriad of jobs for you, the 'natives'.

This is probably pretty spot on, but you have to adopt what i would be perfectly happy to label a racist world view to believe it.  It also doesn't explain why people are willing to support openly sexist candidates.  About 48% of Americans think it is ok to grope women for example.

3 tenuously related observations:

Guy in our office had neither candidate to do a full term if elected. Clinton on health grounds and Trump on either assassination or something fundamentally unconstitutional being dragged up and him being booted.

Quite scary that the congress and senate are all red majority too. Although, it might mean that things may actually happen in the US (albeit perhaps not things I'd personally want) but legislation may just be passed and enacted for (what would seem like) a change.

Red = right(er) wing in the US and yet is the traditional colour for the majority of major left leaning/tilting/practically horizontal parties/regimes worldwide.

Has anything in the campaigns (for pres or Congress or Senate) been mentioned in respect of the US finances? I seem to recall the country went into administrative lockdown briefly over the last package of financial measures that would save or ruin the US/world economy (depending on whether they did/didn't go through).

Roller

Doesn't Trump get a supreme court pick as well? Not to mention that some of the judges are pretty old and might die on Trumps watch, meaning he could get a few more picks.

McLaren wrote:Roller

Doesn't Trump get a supreme court pick as well?  Not to mention that some of the judges are pretty old and might die on Trumps watch, meaning he could get a few more picks.

That's a worrying point. I think you're right there. Interesting that sort of appointment - thought the judiciary was meant to be separate from the State, but clearly that's not the case and becoming less so (apparently) in America.

Trump voters are unsurprisingly male, white, without college degree, over 45 and earn over $50000 per year.

Sound familiar?

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html

Again, ironic that Trumps win was secured by blue collar voters in the rust belt, traditional democratic strongholds. Like in Europe, just another proof that the supposedly left leaning parties are abandoning the working class, and vice versa. You can say what you want about Trump and his personality, but IMO he's more the symptom rather than the cause.

Roller, interesting, to say the least, that there's a red majority in congress as well - however the party is split so I doubt Trump will get half his promises through legislation. Watching his victory speech this morning he did look a bit shocked, like 'oh sh!t what do I do now'. Let's hope he'll get some sane people around him and actually take a breath.

McLaren wrote:Super

Are you saying you don't think Trump and #Brexit are a backlash against progressive politics?

I'm saying Mac, that asserting your myopic viewpoint that ALL votes for Brexit and Trump are down to racism, xenophobia and sexism doesn't make it true, just because that's how you saw those campaigns.

I wasn't in support of Brexit or Trump, but accept that not everyone voting does so because of the reasons you posit.

McLaren wrote:I guess the racists, sexists, bigots etc that voted for #Brexit or Trump would argue democracy works perfectly.


Can someone of a Trump or #Brexit bent explain to me what has been so terrible about the progressive nature of politics in the west over the last 30 years that has made you vote to penalize immigrants, black people, gay people, women and others?

Just an observation Mac
1929 - world financial crisis followed by a decade of austerity, people got extremely pee'd off by it and lurched to the right, persecuting minorities, protectionism etc etc

2008 - world financial crisis followed by a decade(ish) of austerity, people are getting extremely pee'd off and are lurching to the right, persecuting minorities etc etc

The parallels are disturbing, just hope it doesn't take similar events to redraw the balance!!

Why relatively poor working people lurch to the right/become gullible when they feel threatened/insecure is something I can't quite get my head around but it would appear that is what happens.

In politics, people lie to get elected and it works. They keep lying in Office and they end up getting booted out. Trump isn't stupid he knows exactly how to tap in to the base instincts and insecurities of average working people. Quite frankly Clinton should be ashamed of her lacklustre campaign of not being able to expose to better effect the complete and utter lies he has peddled. What he did was hammer on at the email thing to discredit her and it worked.

Progressive politics is the way to go but it has to be pursued by a leadership that can project a vision and is beyond reproach. The vast majority of electorates aren't capable of thinking through the benefits and deliverables of progressive politics, for the vast majority their key base instincts are selfishness, greed and the ability to moan.

What happens to Trump's businesses now? Although the American political system is stupid enough to permit a non politician to stand, surely it's not stupid enough to allow the President to be running a couple of dozen businesses on the side when he should be running the country?

super_realist wrote:What happens to Trump's businesses now? Although the American political system is stupid enough to permit a non politician to stand, surely it's not stupid enough to allow the President to be running a couple of dozen businesses on the side when he should be running the country?

Goes both ways. At least you can see where he stands and what his interests are. That wouldn't exactly have been the case with Hillary.

McLaren wrote:
Doesn't Trump get a supreme court pick as well?  

Not until after the Tour Championship...

Would Bernie Sanders have been a better opponent to Trump? There appears to have been an element of anti establishment voting here as there was in the Brexit vote. So with that in mind have the Democrats badly miscalculated that?

Would Sanders have had a chance against Trump? to our US based contributors...

B-t-b,

I'm surrounded by Bernie acolytes and admirers, he only lives a couple of miles away, but I seriously doubt his candidacy would have stood up to anyone using a bully pulpit with impunity, not his policies (lots of inconsistencies) nor some aspects of his personal life (or at least his wife's).

To me the media and the Democratic National Committee have a lot to answer for; the 50 State strategy of my other near neighbour Howard Dean has withered away, and dem's have lost their base.

Meanwhile, isn't it about time Ladbrokes opened a book on which country Putin is going to invade first?

Kwini

I know he has already started to invade it but you have to think its a bit of a nervous time in the rest of Ukraine right now. Plus didn't he have a pop at Georgia a while back?

kwinigolfer wrote:B-t-b,

I'm surrounded by Bernie acolytes and admirers, he only lives a couple of miles away, but I seriously doubt his candidacy would have stood up to anyone using a bully pulpit with impunity, not his policies (lots of inconsistencies) nor some aspects of his personal life (or at least his wife's).

To me the media and the Democratic National Committee have a lot to answer for; the 50 State strategy of my other near neighbour Howard Dean has withered away, and dem's have lost their base.

Meanwhile, isn't it about time Ladbrokes opened a book on which country Putin is going to invade first?

Yes Kwini, indeed. Sanders would have at least had the benefit of being a political outsider, something the Dems definitely underestimated. I was talking to some guys from Georgia recently, and they were all voting Trump. The reason was more to do with a hate for Hillary (and the establishment) than anything else. I think JAS has hit then nail on the head there earlier, this all stems from the global financial crash and the resulting social turmoil. Interesting times ahead.

If I was a betting man, I would say the whole of Ukraine next on the cards for old Vlad, he's got the Crimea already.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37871793

Trouble is, the global financial crash was facilitated by the Republicans who also held the White House at the time. Since that washed through, and the motor industry was, by and large, rescued by Barack, employment has returned to historically record levels and any worker's retirement plan has flourished.

The Obama administration has done a horrendous job of projecting their domestic successes and allowed anti-establishment rhetoric control the narrative, which thrives in America where the average Joe Blow is arithmetically dyslexic and doesn't read papers or watch TV news.

Now we're going to have our own reality show which will leave these same white constituencies even more on the outside and even more "impoverished" and full of hatred.

And every yo-yo (half the country it seems) has seen that it's OK to repudiate every quality of respect and integrity that most GB&I population were brought up to honour. And with a semi-automatic in their hands.

Didn't see that coming!

I was wrong about this election and I hope I'm wrong about Trump. We'll see.

The ONE thing I'll say about Trump is that I suspect he's forgotten half of the promises he made and I hope the checks and balances of our system keep him in line.

Now on to buy stock after the quick fall that's coming ...

I suppose this serves America right for having a system where it allows Trump to stand in the first place with no political experience whatsoever.

super_realist wrote:I suppose this serves America right for having a system where it allows Trump to stand in the first place with no political experience whatsoever.

So does the UK doesn't it? (however unlikely it might be that someone with absolutely no experience would make it instantly to the premiership, it isn't impossible is it?)

You can't be Prime Minister with no political experience Roller, you need to be an MP. No major political party in the UK would ever vote a non experienced person to party leader.

He had political experience and a cabinet office, but Alec D-Home went straight from the HOL to #10 DS.

kwinigolfer wrote:Trouble is, the global financial crash was facilitated by the Republicans who also held the White House at the time. Since that washed through, and the motor industry was, by and large, rescued by Barack, employment has returned to historically record levels and any worker's retirement plan has flourished.

The Obama administration has done a horrendous job of projecting their domestic successes and allowed anti-establishment rhetoric control the narrative, which thrives in America where the average Joe Blow is arithmetically dyslexic and doesn't read papers or watch TV news.

Now we're going to have our own reality show which will leave these same white constituencies even more on the outside and even more "impoverished" and full of hatred.

And every yo-yo (half the country it seems) has seen that it's OK to repudiate every quality of respect and integrity that most GB&I population were brought up to honour. And with a semi-automatic in their hands.

Trump wasn't a traditional Republican candidate, so it was as much a vote against them as it was against the Democrats imho. But Yeah, I have an awful feeling two years from now when it finally dawns on people that he has no way of delivering half the things he's promised there could be quite a lot of unrest. The Republicans now hold Congress and the Presidency that's an awful lot of power. Lets hope as Shotrock says there are sufficient checks and balances in place to stop any solo runs that are based on ego.

In other news, "Brick Layer" has shot straight into Linkedin's no 1 spot for "Skills to have in 2017".

I get the point btb but voting against the traditional republican party by voting for the official republican party nominee seems, well, erm, actually words fail me.

Do the "checks and balances" amount to any more than referring to each (republican controlled) "house" before becoming enshrined in law? Does the (hand picked?) supreme justice have any say?

Roller_Coaster wrote:I get the point btb but voting against the traditional republican party by voting for the official republican party nominee seems, well, erm, actually words fail me.

Do the "checks and balances" amount to any more than referring to each (republican controlled) "house" before becoming enshrined in law? Does the (hand picked?) supreme justice have any say?

Yes, I agree. He's anti-establishment, that my point. Republicans have widely accused him of hijacking their platform. He's been denounced by practically all the upper echelons of the Republican party. They have very little control over him, he doesn't answer to them. I would imagine Paul Ryan, John McCain and Mitt Romney will be seeking a buddy up meeting rather promptly to try get him on side. But he's essentially won it on his own. They are going to have a very difficult relationship with him by the looks of it. Even scarier.

I rarely discuss politics and as an ex-pat I was asked more than a few times what I thought of the election.  Apologies as this is likely to be longwinded, rambling, possibly disjointed, and covered already in the time it's taken me to write this.

Like Kwini, I don't get to vote and even if I could I'm not sure who I would have voted for.  Both major party candidates were equally disagreeable and in the absence of a strong third party candidate I think the choice was a toss up between choosing whether you would like to be shot or stabbed.  Looks like the country chose shot by a narrow margin.

Politics seems to become more and more polarised with each side automatically being wrong in the eyes of the other.  There doesn't appear to be any attempt to reach consensus rather the ones that hold the majority force through at any cost; in the times there isn't that clear majority there's hopeless deadlock right up to the brink of the precipice.

I saw an interesting segment on 60 minutes last Sunday where they had a pollster gather a group of 30 or so folks across as many demographics as possible.  The pollster started out by saying that he noticed the change in the electorate after the 2000 election where one half of the country felt like the election was stolen from them and the other half felt that someone was trying to steal it away from them.  Debates and discussions amongst his polling groups went from listening to what someone had to say before the next person spoke to a free for all where ideas are immediately shouted down and personal attacks started.  With just two parties to choose from I don't think this is going to change anytime soon.

No doubt in both sets of vote tallies there were protest votes, blocking votes, and of course supporter votes.  The anonymity of the polling booth would also have allowed some folks to make the publicly decried and socially unacceptable choice they wouldn't have aired in public.

In a time when film fiction seems to be predicting reality, see Back to the Future's Cubs Win prediction for 2015, I'm reminded of Reese Witherspoon's character, Elle Woods, in Legally Blonde 2.  She told a story of suffering, I'm using the term loosely here, through a bad customer service experience and she didn't say anything to stop it or change it.  She warned, perhaps prophetically now, that without speaking up America was likely to be in for a really bad haircut.  I just didn't think she meant for President.

Good post grumps.

Looking at that NY times exit poll data again you can see that there was a 14 point swing from 2012 to Trump in the whites without a college degree category and 16 point swing to him in the earning under £30000 group.

So a massive swing towards Trump from the low earning poorly educated folks. If that group is big, is that where the election was won from Trump?

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html

McLaren wrote:Looking at that NY times exit poll data again you can see that there was a 14 point swing from 2012 to Trump in the whites without a college degree category and 16 point swing to him in the earning under £30000 group.

So a massive swing towards Trump from the low earning poorly educated folks.  If that group is big, is that where the election was won from Trump?

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html

Does it matter Mac?

Hopefully there will a weekly golf thread posted. Not interested about talking US Politics with a bunch of self-appointed experts (who mostly happen to be non Americans)

GPB wrote:Hopefully there will a weekly golf thread posted.  Not interested about talking US Politics with a bunch of self-appointed experts (who mostly happen to be non Americans)

Don't you think the rest of the world should have an opinion on POTUS too? We may not have a vote, and we don't really care what he (or she) does for your country - but as the self proclaimed saviour of the free world, I'd like to think we can at least have an opinion

This result seems to be a shock to many on here. Following the brexit vote I could see it coming. So could the markets... little movement in USD v EUR or GBP... markets had clearly forecast this outcome and priced it in (unlike Brexit vote).

On the other hand, not a good day for Mexico. Illustrated by the slump in the Peso.

Davie wrote:

GPB wrote:Hopefully there will a weekly golf thread posted.  Not interested about talking US Politics with a bunch of self-appointed experts (who mostly happen to be non Americans)

Don't you think the rest of the world should have an opinion on POTUS too? We may not have a vote, and we don't really care what he (or she) does for your country - but as the self proclaimed saviour of the free world, I'd like to think we can at least have an opinion

Never said you can't have an opinion, I would just prefer to discuss golf in the golf threads and not American Politics.  That's why I came to this blogs, because it didn't get on many tangents and rants about other topics. (which changed recently with topics I rather not mention)

I prefer to talk about golf, the tours and policies.

We're fortunate enough to be given a bit more free reign than the rest of the boards on here, which are ruled with a ridiculous degree of censorship and "on topic police". It's good we are able to discuss other things, on today of all days.

It's very simple, if you don't want to talk about it or reply, no one is forcing you to, and no one is forcing you to read anything you don't want to, you can continue your love in with Robo about long dead Snead and a glass bodied, 9 chinned has-been if you like on the other thread. There's no shortage of other posts to get involved with.

GPB,
I initiated this because it summed up exactly how I felt.
I may not be a citizen but am deeply invested in your country, both via family and community - in which I am very active.

As Davie says, this is a troubling turn of events to most non-Americans, and certainly my entire family (and, not incidentally, the town I live in).

To me it seems to be a comprehensive repudiation of all the values I've tried to share, whether family or community, and has the very real possibility of increasing the US isolation from the rest of the world.
Frankly, I'm sh1t scared about what could happen, the hate and bigotry will only be further facilitated when this lot get their hands on the Supreme Court. And it will also surely be just a matter of months before Putin tries to push some buttons. (No coincidence that coastal States mostly vote Democrat.)

Lastly, but not least and certainly not intended to open a can of worms, but the religious right is all over facilitating this, 82% "evangelicals" voted for Drumpf reportedly.  

And, just to get back to Golf, I see Golf Channel were tweeting all sorts of congrats to Drumpf today - I can't stand anything about the editorial behaviour of US Golf media, can't imagine what new recruits have to go through just to get employed there.

So, that's that. I won't go on any rants, I'm just deeply disappointed. Back to normal next week, even if your country never will be.

I can't really add much to Kwini's points only that you can't really get the hump with people in the Anglosphere having opinions and making comment on the US pres election. This could be the beginning of The Post American World, people are at least interested, if not worried.

kwinigolfer wrote:What an awful, awful night.
The end.

Agree... The least that inconsiderate awful bas**Rd could have done was wrap it up earlier in the evening so we coulda got more sleep.

By the way, anybody have an opinion on what daily ticket prices should be for the 2020 or 2021 Open Championship at Turnberry?  

I think some people are overplaying the race and gender cards and how certain demographics vote. Yes many people wouldn't vote for a black man or for a woman, but it goes both ways as some seem to be voting for Obama or Clinton mainly because they are black / woman.

But by and large I don't think people primarily vote based on the race or gender of the candidate but what they stand for. Otherwise Obama wouldn't have been a two termer.

I'm a self appointed ANYTHING BUT an expert GP, but with the pre-eminence of the US and her policies in the forefront of global trade, security, finance, diplomacy, hell just about everything, I think a thread where we (as a spectrum of US, non US but living there and non US and only (very) occasional visitors) comment is relevant.

I prefer golf chat on here too and these threads are the stand out platform to provoke such discussions, but the presidency is simply the biggest story on the planet this week. It matters, perhaps not as much to us as it does directly to you. I'm sure it's frustrating that "outsiders" submit undoubtedly frequent errors in respect of views of your country, but it matters.

I'm sure Willett's latest failure in South Africa or Justin Thomas's next attempt to flatter to deceive will return to pre-eminence in the next week on here and we can all ease back in to Super_Mac talking balls (see Costco ball chat   ) but for now, just indulge us. Please.

The media over the last 20 years have a lot to answer for. I can't see why people don't realise how they are being manipulated and increasingly living within self confirming bubbles. To end up with no choice in a 'democracy' is not a democracy. Both candidates are/were a disgrace, and should not have been allowed anywhere near an election. The fact that at least Trump is prepared (or threatened to) shake up the establishment is the only stand out feature between these 2 crass individuals. American politics is very badly broken and needs an overhaul (as does the UK to be fair).