Ireland v Canada - Lansdowne Road, 12th November 19.15

First topic message reminder :

Ireland (5) v Canada (18) , Saturday 12th November
Lansdowne Road, Kick off 19.15
TV: RTE 2, Sky Sports 3, CBC Sports

Last Six
Ireland: W L L W W W
Canada: L L L L L L


Edit:
Ireland line-up confirmed Thursday 10 Nov.

15. Tiernan O'Halloran (Buccaneers/Connacht) 14. Craig Gilroy (Bangor/Ulster) 13. Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster)* 12. Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster) 11. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 10. Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster) 9. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)

1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 2. Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster) 3. Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht) 4. Ultan Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht) 5. Billy Holland (Cork Constitution/Munster)* 6. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) captain 7. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster) 8. Jack O'Donoghue (UL Bohemians/Munster)*

Replacements:
16. James Tracy (UCD/Leinster)* 17. Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 18. John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster)* 19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster) 20. Dan Leavy (UCD/Leinster)* 21. Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster)* 22. Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Leinster) 23. Niyi Adeolokun (Galwegians/Connacht) *

Schmidt give game time to those who'll be in the mix for NZ in Dublin, and capping moreplayers to continue deepening the squad to 45 with 3 in every position.





Canada, whose NZ coach, Kieran Crowley, resigned two weeks after he agreed to lead them into RWC 2019 (to head to Treviso apparently) at the beginning of the year, are now coached by Mark Anscombe.   The team has already had their official tour of the Guinness Storehouse, (Guinness are officials sponsors of Rugby Canada), and squad announcement should happen in next 24 hours.  Some familiar names like to feature include:
Aaron Carpenter – (London Welsh), Ciaran Hearn – (London Irish), Evan Olmstead – (Newcastle Falcons), Taylor Paris – (Agen), Djustice Sears -Duru – (Glasgow Warriors), DTH van Der Merwe – (Scarlets).

The Canadians travel on to Bucaresti to play Romania on Nov 18th, and then to Grenoble to face Samoa on Nov 25th.

Once?

He was too juiced up for much of the first half and into the second. He has wonderful instincts but he has little patience with them - he's thinking flash-harry every time he's about to get the ball and disrupted other players and plays. The good stuff doesn't outweigh the infuriating bad bits and he's old enough now to have matured and relax more - let the game come to him. Stop forcing it.

Plus, he's old enough/mature enough to have the tools to adapt to the players around him - blaming the lack of Murray at his side is a no goer.

He's a good player but for me he's now running out of time to find that brake on his more erratic behaviour. Like I said, Fitz had the same issue right through his International career - over-eagerness killing his potential best bits.

SecretFly wrote:Once?

He was too juiced up for much of the first half and into the second.  He has wonderful instincts but he has little patience with them - he's thinking flash-harry every time he's about to get the ball and disrupted other players and plays.  The good stuff doesn't outweigh the infuriating bad bits and he's old enough now to have matured and relax more - let the game come to him.  Stop forcing it.

Plus, he's old enough/mature enough to have the tools to adapt to the players around him - blaming the lack of Murray at his side is a no goer.

He's a good player but for me he's now running out of time to find that brake on his more erratic behaviour.  Like I said, Fitz had the same issue right through his International career - over-eagerness killing his potential best bits.

In other words, the players around him are not on his wavelength yet. I didn't see any flash-harry from Earls. If someone makes a break, his support needs to get to them. As well as that, the Canadians best player was on his wing and he contained him reasonably well.

My point about Murray is that I think the pack in particular might have better games if there was better decision making and distribution which is what Murray would give. Paddy Jackson & Carbery also look better when they are partnered by Murray.

Murray is Murray. It's like saying we'd have won easier with Sexton, Heaslip and Stander.

We need Irish sides now to come in twos - players chosen for the second string side have to stand up and stop giving themselves excuses. Those were the guys put out there. I accept it was a quick put-together side. But how many more tries might this quick put together side have scored with a little less franticness and a little more coolness of head and speed of decision?
Yes, Marmion at times paused too long or telegraphed to the opposition where the ball was heading.... but still the side scored 8 tries. Three to four more tries could have been taken easily with just a little more self-belief and patience, especially from the more experienced players on the field. You don't need that self control for Canada, but you do for the sides we'll be facing down the line and through the next 6N.

SecretFly wrote:Murray is Murray.  It's like saying we'd have won easier with Sexton, Heaslip and Stander.

We need Irish sides now to come in twos - players chosen for the second string side have to stand up and stop giving themselves excuses.  Those were the guys put out there.  I accept it was a quick put-together side.  But how many more tries might this quick put together side have scored with a little less franticness and a little more coolness of head and speed of decision?  
Yes, Marmion at times paused too long or telegraphed to the opposition where the ball was heading.... but still the side scored 8 tries.  Three to four more tries could have been taken easily with just a little more self-belief and patience, especially from the more experienced players on the field.  You don't need that self control for Canada, but you do for the sides we'll be facing down the line and through the next 6N.

Its a team effort, but if there is an issue in a key position like scrumhalf, its going to make it more difficult. Paddy Jackson was good, but he was very good against SA with Murray and Reddan as his halfback partners. Probably because beside being a better player, Murray also inspires confidence.

Ah Sin...Jesus. That's Nougthies talk - the team needing a central confidence giving player. Dear God, I thought we were finally joining the 21st century in rugby thinking.

Did Munster have Murray against the Maoris? It's weak minded thinking to be always seeking the inspiration player. It IS a team game - some of the individualists that we still have should wait for the team to do the tricks

SecretFly wrote:Ah Sin...Jesus.  That's Nougthies talk - the team needing a central confidence giving player.  Dear God, I thought we were finally joining the 21st century in rugby thinking.

Did Munster have Murray against the Maoris?  It's weak minded thinking to be always seeking the inspiration player.  It IS a team game - some of the individualists that we still have should wait for the team to do the tricks

Munster had a scrumhalf that has probably a 100 caps for Munster and is used to playing with Keatley.

.... it wasn't Murray though, so the team didn't fully know if it would have enough confidence. But they played to win well anyway. Didn't damn well get to see it though so I'll leave it there.

SecretFly wrote:Another game that was bad enough from Ireland not to expect such a scoreline.  But that's the continuing paradox - when Ireland play sloppy/over-rushed, tense rugby they can look so vulnerable.  I kept thinking of what a really good side would do to us and that they'd punish the messy stuff badly.  But still, there is that scoreline.  Enjoyed the intense/hungry/merciless last 15 minutes or so when the pace upped overall and concentration levels seems to improve to cut out the mistakes that come from tension.

O'Brien still tries too hard to be the man that Joe has to pick.  He over reaches and over-heats in temperament.  A card magnet, which is unfortunate - it's something he's developed over time and it seems he doesn't feel the need to tone down the anger/emotion when playing.  It's dangerous for us and not productive for him.

Earls maintains his habits of over-running his providers and simply thinking ahead of himself too much - confusing and frustrating his support players in turn.  Needs to calm down and mature, in the same way that Luke Fitzgerald always needed to dampen the enthusiasm when in an Ireland shirt.

Gilroy - I just wish he's try running faster sooner.  He's bubbly and dances and darts before he needs to dart and dance.  He should bolt more often without the extras and only have the evasion bubbliness when approaching trouble.  Another player that seems to tense up too much, preparing for wonder moves before he even gets the ball.

But meanwhile, I'm appreciative that it's a team that was put together quickly and that the bulk of the players were conscious that they weren't the primary players in Joe's mind.  But they still felt they needed to impress him.  Some great performances from novices settled my nerves - but looking at that scoreline and then looking at what I felt overall was a real awkward and ragged performance, I keep thinking - how good could Ireland be if players just learned to trust rather than fret and muck up their own rhythm.

Spot on there fly.


Earls does so much right and has plenty of talent but he is never really on the same wavelength as his teammates. He just needs to calm down a bit and relax. Of the back 3 Tiernan O'Halloran stood out. Very calm and composed performance and has the vision to unlock defences by observing whats in front of him.


Gilroy has never kicked on from his earlier promise. He is a good player but very average international standard. There are talented wingers/fullbacks coming along now though. Stockdale, Kelleher and Sweetnam look the pick of the bunch. All have pace and footballing ability. They have the x factor. I don't see Gilroy winning many more caps and Earls will be looking over his shoulder. Wouldn't surprise me to see Bowe back in the 6 nations.


2 other disappointments from last nights game were SOB and Marshall. Between the 2 of them they made numerous errors. SOB can be very frustrating to watch especially lately when he is trying to impress when clearly not match fit. Schmidt will not have been impressed with his performance yesterday. And as for Marshall, just way too many errors made and that intercept was a really poor decision.


On the positive side Ringrose was superb but we knew that anyway. Jackson kicked very well. Dillane played well. The front row were good. No injuries. 8 new players got to experience international rugby.

profitius wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Another game that was bad enough from Ireland not to expect such a scoreline.  But that's the continuing paradox - when Ireland play sloppy/over-rushed, tense rugby they can look so vulnerable.  I kept thinking of what a really good side would do to us and that they'd punish the messy stuff badly.  But still, there is that scoreline.  Enjoyed the intense/hungry/merciless last 15 minutes or so when the pace upped overall and concentration levels seems to improve to cut out the mistakes that come from tension.

O'Brien still tries too hard to be the man that Joe has to pick.  He over reaches and over-heats in temperament.  A card magnet, which is unfortunate - it's something he's developed over time and it seems he doesn't feel the need to tone down the anger/emotion when playing.  It's dangerous for us and not productive for him.

Earls maintains his habits of over-running his providers and simply thinking ahead of himself too much - confusing and frustrating his support players in turn.  Needs to calm down and mature, in the same way that Luke Fitzgerald always needed to dampen the enthusiasm when in an Ireland shirt.

Gilroy - I just wish he's try running faster sooner.  He's bubbly and dances and darts before he needs to dart and dance.  He should bolt more often without the extras and only have the evasion bubbliness when approaching trouble.  Another player that seems to tense up too much, preparing for wonder moves before he even gets the ball.

But meanwhile, I'm appreciative that it's a team that was put together quickly and that the bulk of the players were conscious that they weren't the primary players in Joe's mind.  But they still felt they needed to impress him.  Some great performances from novices settled my nerves - but looking at that scoreline and then looking at what I felt overall was a real awkward and ragged performance, I keep thinking - how good could Ireland be if players just learned to trust rather than fret and muck up their own rhythm.

Spot on there fly.


Earls does so much right and has plenty of talent but he is never really on the same wavelength as his teammates. He just needs to calm down a bit and relax. Of the back 3 Tiernan O'Halloran stood out. Very calm and composed performance and has the vision to unlock defences by observing whats in front of him.


Gilroy has never kicked on from his earlier promise. He is a good player but very average international standard. There are talented wingers/fullbacks coming along now though. Stockdale, Kelleher and Sweetnam look the pick of the bunch. All have pace and footballing ability. They have the x factor. I don't see Gilroy winning many more caps and Earls will be looking over his shoulder. Wouldn't surprise me to see Bowe back in the 6 nations.  


2 other disappointments from last nights game were SOB and Marshall. Between the 2 of them they made numerous errors. SOB can be very frustrating to watch especially lately when he is trying to impress when clearly not match fit. Schmidt will not have been impressed with his performance yesterday. And as for Marshall, just way too many errors made and that intercept was a really poor decision.


On the positive side Ringrose was superb but we knew that anyway. Jackson kicked very well. Dillane played well. The front row were good. No injuries. 8 new players got to experience international rugby.

Agree on all points. I think that sometimes its the previously "established" internationals who are not shoe-ins for selection when returning from injury that force things more than the young blood. All the young lads (marshall/gilroy excepted) played with youthful enough confidence and exuberance. SOB/Earls forced things too much. POM was good though but I see him as a nailed on member of the first team 23 in a way that SOB/Earls are not.

15. TOH
14. Zebo
13. Ringrose
12. Henshaw
11. ??? (earls/trimble a bit old by then, gilroy/healy/niyi need to prove they are of the standard especially in defence)

Not a bad backline for the next RWC....

SecretFly wrote:.... it wasn't Murray though, so the team didn't fully know if it would have enough confidence.  But they played to win well anyway.  Didn't damn well get to see it though so I'll leave it there.

I made that comment because of something Rua Tipoki said at the weekend about ROG.

Rua wrote:"..... but I got to play outside ROG at his best and it just does wonders for your game as a midfielder when you've got someone like that. It's no secret to any Munster fan, when ROG was on, Munster were almost unbeatable.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:.... it wasn't Murray though, so the team didn't fully know if it would have enough confidence.  But they played to win well anyway.  Didn't damn well get to see it though so I'll leave it there.

I made that comment because of something Rua Tipoki said at the weekend about ROG.

Rua wrote:"..... but I got to play outside ROG at his best and it just does wonders for your game as a midfielder when you've got someone like that. It's no secret to any Munster fan, when ROG was on, Munster were almost unbeatable.

I loved ROG, but that was a while ago now. Who Sin of our current 10 options is most likely to give that feeling to our midfielders?

The team was fully in tune with O'Gara's kicking game - certainly at Munster and even so at Ireland. The team philosophy was moulded around where O'Gara could place a ball - on a penny usually!

In a sense, 10s since don't really have that luxury. Sexton was developed through a hot running game at Leinster and yet when he started getting gametime in Ireland and even up to now, that kind of game really isn't so fluidly to the fore. It's often like Munster style play with a Leinster style 10 - the lack of balance can often be pointed - as Sexton's furious face and shouting has often proved.

Paulie and Cudmore have come to blows again

https://twitter.com/SkySportsRugby/status/797516797482270720?lang=en

Golden wrote:Paulie and Cudmore have come to blows again

https://twitter.com/SkySportsRugby/status/797516797482270720?lang=en

Is it just me or does one of the cameramen look like Gerry Adams?

wolfball wrote:

Golden wrote:Paulie and Cudmore have come to blows again

https://twitter.com/SkySportsRugby/status/797516797482270720?lang=en

Is it just me or does one of the cameramen look like Gerry Adams?

Gordon f**ked it up again by being too eager! F**k these over-strung backs!

Thought the game passed ringerose by. Still a lot to learn, wasn't helped by Marshall. If someone overdid the individuality it was SOB and I thought Healy spent most of the day running up blind alleys. Earls has forced himself into contention. TOH matured a lot and dillane was good but interesting that Holland ran the lineout. Expect some curveball from Joe regarding selection especially the back row.

The Murray discussion is a non discussion. No one in Ireland close to him in terms of influence and running a game. More in the French mould for a NH scrum half.

Agree about Healy.

If Schmidt is impressed by Earl's overall performance (apart from that one eye-catcher moment) then I'll be very let down by Schmidt's standards. Earls too erratic to play against an AB side coming for vengeance with a capital V.

Nobody is discussing Murray - only who might feel let down by not having Murray around him - ie Earls

Just want to reiterate I said at the start of the Chicago game we would win by 10. I also said we would put fifty on Canada and we will beat the abs by 8 next weekend.

wolfball wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:.... it wasn't Murray though, so the team didn't fully know if it would have enough confidence.  But they played to win well anyway.  Didn't damn well get to see it though so I'll leave it there.

I made that comment because of something Rua Tipoki said at the weekend about ROG.

Rua wrote:"..... but I got to play outside ROG at his best and it just does wonders for your game as a midfielder when you've got someone like that. It's no secret to any Munster fan, when ROG was on, Munster were almost unbeatable.

I loved ROG, but that was a while ago now. Who Sin of our current 10 options is most likely to give that feeling to our midfielders?

I mentioned ROG because he inspired that confidence with those he played with and Rua mentioned it a few days ago as he was over for the Maori game. I think Sexton is the closest to producing that sort of confidence, but if it came to a much win kick, you'd be more confident of ROG making it or for ROG to find space with a lovely spiral kick into the corner.

SecretFly wrote:Agree about Healy.  

If Schmidt is impressed by Earl's overall performance (apart from that one eye-catcher moment) then I'll be very let down by Schmidt's standards.  Earls too erratic to play against an AB side coming for vengeance with a capital V.

Nobody is discussing Murray - only who might feel let down by not having Murray around him - ie Earls

The passing was awful from the scrum halves. I just think that the team would have functioned better if Murray was the scrumhalf.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Just want to reiterate I said at the start of the Chicago game we would win by 10. I also said we would put fifty on Canada and we will beat the abs by 8 next weekend.

Yep, you're getting close to being a guy that's going to be kidnapped and kept in a den ready to be brought out every weekend for the world's lottery shows

Quite a strange game in that (having watched half an hour of highlights) it didn't seem as though Ireland actually played all that well, but still won comfortably. Did anyone play themselves into contention for the big show in a week's time?

Decent performance all in, a bit sloppy in the first half.

Excellent stuff from O'Hallaran, Dillane and Ringrose and a mixed bag from some other folks but something to build on.

Bring on the ABs.

We're always 'building'. Maybe Trump should sponsor us instead of Vodafone

George Carlin wrote:Quite a strange game in that (having watched half an hour of highlights) it didn't seem as though Ireland actually played all that well, but still won comfortably. Did anyone play themselves into contention for the big show in a week's time?

That's the nail on the head observation, George. I came to the same one: It might be Joe's new masterplan, optical illusion gameplay.

SecretFly wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Quite a strange game in that (having watched half an hour of highlights) it didn't seem as though Ireland actually played all that well, but still won comfortably. Did anyone play themselves into contention for the big show in a week's time?

That's the nail on the head observation, George.  I came to the same one:  It might be Joe's new masterplan, optical illusion gameplay.  

We weren't as organised as we usually are. Though that is probably to be expected when there were so many new caps and many have not played together before. It is a good enough sign though to get such a comprehensive win v Canada and I think the attitude was very good.

The team got the scoreline I wanted in the end - a scoreline they should have been expecting without any disrespect to Canada; - you respect opponents by trying as hard as you can to put as many points as possible on them.

So that was Job Done - yes.  But now that we know(hope) that we have enough players in the squad, and in Ireland; and now that we know that we can get up a pretty respectable score even when playing not so well - I'd hope that Joe might now use some of his time with players to bed it all down. Practice and practice the more intense game and build up a confidence and calmness at speed.  Work on the execution to phase out all the little errors that can build up to make the thing look rushed and nervy.
 If we can just take the rough edges off it and make it all more smooth and non-frantic, then we're in a really good position over the next few years.

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Quite a strange game in that (having watched half an hour of highlights) it didn't seem as though Ireland actually played all that well, but still won comfortably. Did anyone play themselves into contention for the big show in a week's time?

That's the nail on the head observation, George.  I came to the same one:  It might be Joe's new masterplan, optical illusion gameplay.  

We weren't as organised as we usually are. Though that is probably to be expected when there were so many new caps and many have not played together before. It is a good enough sign though to get such a comprehensive win v Canada and I think the attitude was very good.

I concur. On paper it was an exciting team but this is a big step up from what a lot of the players are used to. Also a lot of guys really haven't played that much this season and are playing themselves into fitness and/or form - Healy, SOB, POM, Gilroy, Jackson, Marshall and Earls to name a few.

The fact that the first half was sloppy wasn't too surprising and that we got better as the game went on is encouraging.

The move off the back of the scrum were O'Brien dropped the ball from O'Donahue would have been a super try and showed we were just a bit off in the timing and execution.