Scotland v Argentina, 19 November

First topic message reminder :

        
SCOTLAND v ARGENTINA
19 November 2016
17:00 GMT
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on BBC Two

Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: Jérôme Garcès (France), Thomas Charabas (France)
Television match official: Shaun Davey (England)
Timekeeper: Graeme Marshall (Scotland)
Assessor: Andrew Cole (Australia)

A. Head to Head

15 Played 15
6 Won 9
0 Drawn 0
9 Lost 6
309 Points 268

B. Recent Form

8 November 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
41 – 31 to Scotland
2014 Autumn International

21 June 2014
Estadio Mario Alberto Kempes, Córdoba
19 – 21 to Scotland
2014 Mid-year Test

25 September 2011
Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington
13 – 12 to Argentina
2011 Rugby World Cup

19 June 2010
Estadio José María Minella, Mar del Plata
9 – 13 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina

12 June 2010
Estadio José Fierro, Tucumán
16 – 24 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina

28 November 2009
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 9 to Argentina
2009 Autumn International

C. TEAMS:

SCOTLAND 

Hogg, Maitland, Jones, Dunbar, Seymour, Russell, Laidlaw (captain); Dell, Brown, Fagerson, Gilchrist, Gray, Bradbury, Watson, Barclay.

Replacements: Ford, Allan, Low, Swinson, Wilson, Price, Horne, Visser.

ARGENTINA

Tuculet; Moroni, Orlando, Hernandez, Cordero; Sanchez, Landajo; Noguera, Creevy (captain), Herrera, Petti, Alemanno, Matera, Ortega Desio, Isa.

Replacements: Montoya, Botta, Pieretto, Senatore, Leguizamon, Cubelli, De la Fuente, Estelles.

At least he is well rested after only playing 4 minutes last week...

RDW_Scotland wrote:At least he is well rested after only playing 4 minutes last week...

...and what a 4 minutes it was. Nice catch from the restart Ryan. Top class.

I'm now calling Wilson Buzz lightyear

Alistair Reid at the Times has this as his probable lineup. Does he usually get it right?

S Hogg (Glasgow Warriors); T Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) (or S Maitland, Saracens), H Jones (Stormers), A Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors), T Visser (Harlequins); F Russell (Glasgow Warriors), G Laidlaw (Gloucester); G Reid (Glasgow Warriors), R Ford (Edinburgh), Z Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors), R Gray (Toulouse), J Gray (Glasgow Warriors), M Bradbury (Edinburgh), H Watson (Edinburgh), J Barclay (Scarlets).

I would be delighted with this, as long as Seymor bumps Visser out, not Maitland.

I would be very happy with that team and CDP on the bench, he may not be fit enough for a whole game yet anyway.

nickj wrote:Alistair Reid at the Times has this as his probable lineup. Does he usually get it right?

S Hogg (Glasgow Warriors); T Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) (or S Maitland, Saracens), H Jones (Stormers), A Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors), T Visser (Harlequins); F Russell (Glasgow Warriors), G Laidlaw (Gloucester); G Reid (Glasgow Warriors), R Ford (Edinburgh), Z Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors), R Gray (Toulouse), J Gray (Glasgow Warriors), M Bradbury (Edinburgh), H Watson (Edinburgh), J Barclay (Scarlets).

I would be delighted with this, as long as Seymor bumps Visser out, not Maitland.

I'd be delighted with that team, albeit I would agree that Visser should be the winger to make way based on last weeks non-performance. I'd also suggest that Dell ought to start ahead of Reid, but hard to get too excited about that.

This is great experience for young Fagerson.

nickj wrote:Alistair Reid at the Times has this as his probable lineup. Does he usually get it right?

S Hogg (Glasgow Warriors); T Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) (or S Maitland, Saracens), H Jones (Stormers), A Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors), T Visser (Harlequins); F Russell (Glasgow Warriors), G Laidlaw (Gloucester); G Reid (Glasgow Warriors), R Ford (Edinburgh), Z Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors), R Gray (Toulouse), J Gray (Glasgow Warriors), M Bradbury (Edinburgh), H Watson (Edinburgh), J Barclay (Scarlets).

I would be delighted with this, as long as Seymor bumps Visser out, not Maitland.

Not a bad team,

Red  - WRONG
Orange - needs to improve (but worth the opportunity (as they are not the 'lazy, arm swinigng waste of space McV's)

Riskysports wrote:

nickj wrote:Alistair Reid at the Times has this as his probable lineup. Does he usually get it right?

S Hogg (Glasgow Warriors); T Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) (or S Maitland, Saracens), H Jones (Stormers), A Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors), T Visser (Harlequins); F Russell (Glasgow Warriors), G Laidlaw (Gloucester); G Reid (Glasgow Warriors), R Ford (Edinburgh), Z Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors), R Gray (Toulouse), J Gray (Glasgow Warriors), M Bradbury (Edinburgh), H Watson (Edinburgh), J Barclay (Scarlets).

I would be delighted with this, as long as Seymor bumps Visser out, not Maitland.

Not a bad team,

Red  - WRONG
Orange - needs to improve (but worth the opportunity (as they are not the 'lazy, arm swinigng waste of space McV's)

What's the pink for Barclay?

Think Watson could improve but certainly wasn't bad last week

Would prefer Bradbury at 8 if he is in the squad. Barclay knows his role as a flanker in the Scotland set up and Bradbury will offer more coming off a scrum as the ball carrier.

Bradbury is starting!!

6. Magnus
7. Watson
8. Barclay

Wilson, Swinson, Visser, Ford on the bench to provide that much needed oomph...

Gilchrist starting - Richie out

Dell
Brown
Fagerson
Gilco
J.Gray
Bradbury
Watson
Barclay
Laidlaw
Russell
Seymour
Dunbar
Jones
Maitland
Hogg

Bench
16 Ford
17 Allan
18 Low
19 Swinson
20 Wilson
21 Price
22 Horne
23 Visser

Think it's fair to say no one would have guessed that team at the start of the season!

Certainly one of the more random team selections!



The good - Bradbury, Brown and Seymour starting

The bad - Gilchrist starting, the bench lacks impact and the backrow in general is a bit all over the place

It is still a very inexperienced team - would be a great achivement if we got the win

Head Coach Vern Cotter has named uncapped back-row Magnus Bradbury among four personnel changes to the Scotland team to start against Argentina at BT Murrayfield this Saturday (19 November, kick-off 5pm) – live on BBC.

Bradbury (21) is the second starting debutant in as many weeks for the national team this autumn, with the former Oban Lorne RFC player and Merchiston Castle School pupil looking to build on his barnstorming form for Edinburgh Rugby this season.

His inclusion on the blindside flank sees John Barclay move to number 8, with Hamish Watson returning to the openside and Ryan Wilson selected on the bench.

Edinburgh Rugby lock Grant Gilchrist – who captained Scotland to victory over the Pumas in Cordoba two years ago – and Glasgow Warriors hooker Fraser Brown are promoted from the bench in place of the injured Richie Gray (suspected concussion) and cap centurion Ross Ford – named among the replacements – to complete the changes to the forwards.

They will pack down with returning tight-five forwards Zander Fagerson, last week’s debutant Allan Dell, and try-scoring lock Jonny Gray.

The return of wing Tommy Seymour is the only change to the back division, meaning two-time try-scorer Huw Jones and centre partner Alex Dunbar, half-backs Greig Laidlaw and Finn Russell, and Stuart Hogg and Sean Maitland are reinstated.

Two further personnel changes appear on the bench, with prop Alex Allan and lock Tim Swinson coming in for Gordon Reid and the promoted Gilchrist.

Scotland Head Coach Vern Cotter, said: “Every week we want to improve. We did a lot of good things against Australia: we scored three tries to their two, we were aggressive in attack and our defence held strong for the most part.

“While it’s disappointing we didn’t walk off with the win, I’m proud of the courage the players showed and the way they adapted to changes on the paddock due to injuries.

“Saturday’s game is going to be a different challenge for us, both physically and mentally, against a very dangerous Argentina side.

“They have the capacity to vary their game so we have to be prepared for whatever approach they take, though we can expect them to look to dominate the set piece as a starting point, be very explosive around the rucks and look to get their offloading game up and running.

“We will have to be disciplined and make sure we capitalise on every opportunity we create.”

It was confirmed on Monday that this Saturday’s match against last year’s Rugby World Cup semi-finalists will be played in front of a home crowd record for the fixture, with the national team anticipating another big atmosphere at BT Murrayfield this weekend.

The sides last met in November 2014 with the hosts enjoying a frenetic, five-try victory and, while the Scots have won just six of the 15 matches between the two sides, five of those have come in the last seven meetings.

Despite the recent head-to-heads appearing in the Scots’ favour, the Pumas have enjoyed improved fortunes in the past two years, defeating Ireland 43-20 en route to the last four of the World Cup and enjoying several landmark results in the Rugby Championship.

Scotland team to play Argentina at BT Murrayfield in the Autumn Tests
This Saturday (19 November, kick-off 5pm) – live on BBC

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 46 caps; 11 tries, 3 pens, 64 points

14 Sean Maitland (Saracens) – 24 caps; 3 tries, 15 points
13 Huw Jones (Stormers) – 2 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
12 Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) – 17 caps; 5 tries, 25 points
11 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 29 caps; 13 tries, 65 points

10 Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors) – 20 caps; 2 tries, 3 cons, 1 pen, 19 points
9 Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN (Gloucester) – 54 caps; 4 tries, 68 cons, 129 pens, 543 points

1 Allan Dell (Edinburgh Rugby) – 1 cap
2 Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 18 caps
3 Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 2 caps
4 Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) – 13 caps; 1 try, 5 points
5 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 26 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
6 Magnus Bradbury (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
7 Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 3 caps
8 John Barclay (Scarlets) – 53 caps; 4 tries, 20 points

Substitutes:
16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) – 100 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
17 Alex Allan (Glasgow Warriors) – 1 cap
18 Moray Low (Exeter Chiefs) – 35 caps
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 24 caps
20 Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 21 caps
21 Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped
22 Pete Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 21 caps; 2 tries, 1 con, 1 pen, 15 points
23 Tim Visser (Harlequins) – 27 caps; 11 tries, 55 points

Unavailable through injury: Alasdair Dickinson (hamstring), Richie Gray (possible concussion), John Hardie (ankle/knee/concussion), Josh Strauss (calf).

We'll feel the benefits of that team in the final game of the 2018 Six Nations, when we've been hammered by injuries and we're bringing ten-cap players into the bench rather than debutantes.

OK, that's my shot of optimism for the day.

Still... that backline. Lightning.

Its about as good a team as we could have put out really!

Gilchrist is going to have to A: not get injured and B: Start to show at least some of what the coaches see in him

The backline looks tasty but I'm very worried about how much ball they'll get with a very young pack. Last week they were saying how Ford was there to provide experience in the front row with two inexperienced props. I'm really hoping that Fagerson has a better time of it with a familiar hooker beside him rather than ol chinhook.

Argentina have come on leaps and bounds but they are still capable of being a very dogmatic pack that can strangle an opposition. They've also got a very potent backrow.

Fingers crossed that Bradbury has a stormer and we never see Wilson in a Scotland team again.

and get well soon Ritchie, we need you!

Not to worry, if we're defending a slender lead going in to the last quarter Cotter can put Horne and Visser on to shore things up....especially if Swinson and Wilson are both off with yellow cards at that point. What can go wrong?

What Scotland needs ATM is another Beattie really coming through.

You do seem to have flankers coming out of your ears though.

But that back row looks really unbalanced esp compared to the argentine back row.

To be fair to the backrow, Bradbury has been performing really well at 6 this season, Watson has done well at 7 and Barclay played 8 last weekend as was a standout performer. Sure it's not a typical backrow, but I have faith it'll be ok.

The Argentine scrum did not look great against Wales so less need for a big hooker. Argentina try to play a fast brand of rugby though they are not there yet.

Allan coming onto the bench probably explains Cotter's thinking to Reid's 20 minutes last week. Swinson was in form and can carry effectively enough for a 20 minute cameo at lock or cover 6 in an emergency like last week. Toolis issue has been beaten to death. Wilson can cover 6 and 8 well enough for 20 minutes when in form (which he generally has been so far). Team looks good. The backs are as good as any in the northern hemisphere at the moment.

It is a young team with several players (Fagerson, Dell, Allan, Price, Bradbury, Watson, Jones) who need this experience early to get used to playing for Scotland and understanding the high standards needed to win. They are likely going to be around for the next 8-10 years and I expect 4-5 of them to become first choice at some point.

As for Beattie Welly, there is hope Bradbury is a more consistent version. CDP is as good at club level and is still young. Proven carriers in Strauss and Denton are out injured atm contributing to the imbalance.

In what world is Wilson in front of CDP

Welly wrote: What Scotland needs ATM is another Beattie really coming through.

You do seem to have flankers coming out of your ears though.

But that back row looks really unbalanced esp compared to the argentine back row.

What, one good season, then lazy and Poopie

Prefer a few more consistent players

IanBru wrote:We'll feel the benefits of that team in the final game of the 2018 Six Nations, when we've been hammered by injuries and we're bringing ten-cap players into the bench rather than debutantes.

OK, that's my shot of optimism for the day.

Still... that backline. Lightning.

Agreed. Toonie will be delighted with that team, particularly the pack.

Not much more Cotter could have done with that 23. The bench is weak and offers very little impact, but other than Wilson being there ahead of Strauss or CDP it's hard to see any controversial picks, leaving Toolis out of the equation.

Congratulations to Magnus Bradbury. He's been awesome for Edinburgh this season and thoroughly deserves this.

I'm glad that Bradbury is starting, he really does deserve to be there on form. He has the potential to fully establish himself as our starting 6. Barclay predominately plays 8 for the Scarlets these days, he's not who I would pick there but he is a classy player. In the long term though, Scotland do need to establish who is their first choice 8 - one of Denton, Strauss or CDP need to put their hand up and claim it.

It's the bench that I have concern over. Glad that Allan starts over Reid (who I don't really rate), but I think you could make a very good case for replacing everybody from 19-23.

Are Beattie and Max Evans still playing pro rugby? Not suggesting either should still be in the Scotland squad, just wondering out of curiosity.

MacKnocked-on wrote:Are Beattie and Max Evans still playing pro rugby? Not suggesting either should still be in the Scotland squad, just wondering out of curiosity.

I'm pretty sure Beattie plays for Bayonne, not sure about Evans. JB had all of the physical gifts and talent required to get a bucketful of caps, but he mentally seemed to drift in and out of games.

Johnnie Beattie is currently playing for Bayonne - feck knows about Max Evans as I don't think he has a team anymore!

Bradbury starting is fantastic, hope he has a stormer.

Disappointing Gray is injured, he had a strong game last weekend and Gilchrist doesn't offer as much but confident he'll put in a good shift (assuming he lasts).

Surprised that Ford has been dropped given the inexperience of both props but Brown's form has been deserving of a start.

Great to have Seymour back, wasn't overly impressed with either last week.

Better bench this week but would prefer Bennett to Visser.

Really hope Laidlaw, Russell and Hogg ensure we play the game in the right areas of the pitch, we didn't play enough territory last week and invited pressure. Had NZ or England been leading with 10 minutes to go they'd have made sure Australia were playing from their 22.

I am actually delighted with that team, really the only dissapointment is RG being injured which meant the other squad SRs had to be in.

Bradbury, Dell, Brown all deserve their chances and Tommy coming back in was a given assuming he was ready to play. We might find the backrows mix and match a bit and Bradbury may play 8 when it needs to be carried out of a tight spot, he has been very good at 6 all season though and the whole back row looks a lot more balanced than it did last week to me.

The bench is a bit light again, there was a decent argument for Bennett over Horne but I guess they felt that they really needed someone who could play a whole game at 10 and they did not want to risk having to move Gl early on. If Price has now jumped over Henry in the SH queue, which may be the case then for goodness sake get him onto the pitch and give him some gametime. He is a fast sniping SH who could be ideal against a tiring defence.

Ryan Wilso will bring some oomph off the bench. I guess we would have liked to see CDP there, but maybe still some doubts about his fitness. I susperct we will see him nbext week.

Can't get over how young our team is, especially in important positions.

TH prop - 20 year old
TH lock - 22 year old
Fly half - 24 year old
Full back - 24 year old

All four of those guys have potential to be World Class imo and two are close already.

reallybored wrote:Can't get over how young our team is, especially in important positions.

TH prop - 20 year old
TH lock - 22 year old
Fly half - 24 year old
Full back - 24 year old

All four of those guys have potential to be World Class imo and two are close already.

Careful now. Let's not go all Welsh.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

reallybored wrote:Can't get over how young our team is, especially in important positions.

TH prop - 20 year old
TH lock - 22 year old
Fly half - 24 year old
Full back - 24 year old

All four of those guys have potential to be World Class imo and two are close already.

Careful now. Let's not go all Welsh.

Only one of them is from Ayr as well.

LH props are both 24 and Sutherland is 22

Bradbury is 21 and could end up at 8 at some point in this match

Don't trust Wikipedia - Sutherland is 24!

Fabulous balls-out selection from Cotter.

Given who is injured, it is very nearly beyond reproach. Injury or recent injuries informs a lot of the selections here I think. Du Preez cannot be quite right yet and I think he'll start next week. I don't think Cottee wants to leave Finn without dedicated cover at 10 although with Laidlaw also able to cover 10 I would still have had Bennett in there as a quality upgrade over Horne who is not the future for us at either 10, 12 or 13.

Delighted for Fraser Brown and thrilled to see Bradbury dropped straight into the starting line up. His leg would have to be hanging off to get him off the field and playing opposite Watson will give him a hopefully soft landing internationally.

Delighted to see Shuggy Boy and Eck in midfield again - big, fast and skillful. Bennett must be feeling that it's like watching someone else kiss your girlfriend given the great year he's had.

Looking forward to this now.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Don't trust Wikipedia - Sutherland is 24!

Wiki is usually so good

Just in case you wanted to talk about the opposition too .....

Argentina: 15 Joaquín Tuculet, 14 Matías Moroni, 13 Matías Orlando, 12 Juan Martín Hernández, 11 Santiago Cordero, 10 Nicolás Sánchez, 9 Martín Landajo, 8 Facundo Isa, 7 Javier Ortega Desio, 6 Pablo Matera, 5 Matías Alemanno, 4 Guido Petti, 3 Ramiro Herrera, 2 Agustín Creevy (c), 1 Lucas Noguera

Replacements: 16 Julián Montoya, 17 Santiago García Botta, 18 Enrique Pieretto, 19 Leonardo Senatore, 20 Juan Manuel Leguizamon, 21 Tomás Cubelli, 22 Jerónimo De la Fuente, 23 Juan Pablo Estelles

I do think we should all look at this team selection, pause for a moment and reflect how lucky we are to have Vern Cotter in charge.

Frank Hadden, Andy Robinson and Scott Johnson would never, in a million years, have picked this team. Hadden would have selected Sean Lamont at 12, Robinson would have "opted for experience" by recalling Jim Hamilton, Nathan Hines and Kelly Brown whereas Scott Johnson, whilst difficult to predict, would have almost certainly picked Ryan Wilson at 7, with fellow number 8s CDP, Strauss, Bradbury and Denton forming the remainder of the back row and locks.

What is refreshing about Cotter is he seems to be able to pick teams that suggest he's actually watched Edinburgh and Glasgow this season. He appears to be watching these games and assessing who is playing well and who is not. When he does make a judgement call, as he must have done in picking Jones ahead of Bennett, by and large he seems to be onto something. When we have ropey players on the pitch, it tends to be because his hand has been forced. We are so far away from the dark days of team selection under the previous regimes, when the teamsheet appeared to be password protected and the Head Coach not given the password to change it.

I agree fES, Cotter has quietly gone about his work in a very impressive fashion - he is a damn good coach and Scotland are lucky to have him. Why we are quite so keen to shove him out of the door is, as are many things SRU related, totally beyond me.

Hardie out for up to 8 weeks apparently. With a sprained ankle.

That is a relief in some ways - it looked significantly worse than that.

Should be back fully fit for the 6N which is good.

Great opportunity for Hamish Watson though - he is now first choice 7 for club and country.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

reallybored wrote:Can't get over how young our team is, especially in important positions.

TH prop - 20 year old
TH lock - 22 year old
Fly half - 24 year old
Full back - 24 year old

All four of those guys have potential to be World Class imo and two are close already.

Careful now. Let's not go all Welsh.

Weeeeeelllll.

While good, they are no AWJ or Liam Williams are they?

Mixed feelings about this match. If we lose then Saturday's performance will be just another false dawn. GG needs to deliver or we'll suffer at the set piece. Hamish from The Glen did well against a very good back row and needs to back it up while helping young Bradbury through his debut.
On the other hand that is an exciting back line. Jones could be playing for a move to Scotstoun, that should bring out the best in him. The idea of Ali Price coming on and doing his Sonic on amphetamines impersonation against a tiring side is mouthwatering.
Either the pack produce good, fast ball and we run in a hateful of tries OR the Pumas dominate up front and we lose again.
My money's on the happy ending, as long as Visser doesn't get off the bench.

Watson is always going to need a big carrier alongside him if he's going to be able to play his natural game, and he didn't have that luxury last week. I'm excited to see how he gets along with Bradbury, they compliment each others game very well for Edinburgh

funnyExiledScot wrote:I do think we should all look at this team selection, pause for a moment and reflect how lucky we are to have Vern Cotter in charge.

Frank Hadden, Andy Robinson and Scott Johnson would never, in a million years, have picked this team. Hadden would have selected Sean Lamont at 12, Robinson would have "opted for experience" by recalling Jim Hamilton, Nathan Hines and Kelly Brown whereas Scott Johnson, whilst difficult to predict, would have almost certainly picked Ryan Wilson at 7, with fellow number 8s CDP, Strauss, Bradbury and Denton forming the remainder of the back row and locks.

What is refreshing about Cotter is he seems to be able to pick teams that suggest he's actually watched Edinburgh and Glasgow this season. He appears to be watching these games and assessing who is playing well and who is not. When he does make a judgement call, as he must have done in picking Jones ahead of Bennett, by and large he seems to be onto something. When we have ropey players on the pitch, it tends to be because his hand has been forced. We are so far away from the dark days of team selection under the previous regimes, when the teamsheet appeared to be password protected and the Head Coach not given the password to change it.

He has been in fantastic form for Saracens this season, would happily have him ahead of Gilchrist.

Cotter is blessed with the best group of players we've had in over a decade.  

Gilchrist...

Been thinking of him for a while now....sad i know

I think this game is actually one we should judge him on, and this is the reason.

So far he has been hit with injuries and even when back, he has only ever been given 10-15 mins to do anything. He is up against 2 fantastic locks to compete, who work very well together. It is always going to be tough to shine, especially when we wet our rugby shorts a bit much over the brothers Gray on occasion (and gloss over mistakes they make).

I actually thought he was ok when he came on last week. Got involved, took the ball on and got over the gain line and gave us some go forward (remember J Gray is not actually a great line breaker - only makes about a yard each time he carries).

I think him getting a start, so a whole game to prove himself, with the great J Gray beside him is how we should really judge him - against a good team, but not an unbeatable team

And we should also judge him how we judge others i.e. not look for the faults rather than to good stuff

#generousfriday

A very fair post Risky.

I have been one of Gilchrist's biggest supporters over the years but even I know that he isn't the 3rd form lock available to Scotland this season. Let's not write him off before the game - give him a chance and if he's still crap then we can complain about him!

I think with Gilchrist, the frustration boils down to the twin Toolis. B Toolis is being kept out of the international set up by him even though he is in form. A Toolis left because of the threat of a lack of playing time at Edinburgh with Gilchrist playing a part (AS take a bow) and he looked okay.

Before he got hurt he was in form and worth a spot. He needs time healthy to rebuild and instead is thrown into international games. It is not his fault yet he is going to take flack unless he can deliver consistently.