Wales v South Africa, 26 November

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WALES v SOUTH AFRICA
26 November 2016
KO: 17:30 GMT
Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Live on BBC Two & S4C

Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant Referees: Greg Garner (England), Tom Foley (England)
TMO: Graham Hughes (England)

A. Head to Head

31 Played 31
2 Won 28
1 Drawn 1
28 Lost 2
837 Points 459

B. Recent Form

17 October 2015
Twickenham Stadium, London, England
23–19 to South Africa

29 November 2014
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
12–6 to Wales

21 June 2014
Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
31–30 to South Africa

14 June 2014
Growthpoint Kings Park, Durban
38–16 to South Africa

9 November 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
15–24 to South Africa

11 September 2011
Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington
17–16 to South Africa

13 November 2010
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
25–29 to South Africa

C. Teams

WALES 

Halfpenny; North, J Davies, S Williams, Liam Williams; Biggar, G Davies; Jenkins (capt), Owens, Francis, Charteris, Wyn Jones, Lydiate, Moriarty, Tipuric.

Replacements: Baldwin, Smith, Lee, Hill, Faletau, Lloyd Williams, S Davies, Roberts.

SOUTH AFRICA

Johan Goosen; Ruan Combrinck, Francois Venter, Rohan Janse van Rensburg, Jamba Ulengo; Elton Jantjies, Faf de Klerk; Tendai Mtawariri, Adriaan Strauss (capt), Lourens Adriaanse, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Lood de Jager, Nizaam Carr, Uzair Cassiem, Warren Whiteley.

Replacements: Malcolm Marx, teven Kitshoff, Trevor Nyakane, Franco Mostert, Jean-Luc du Preez, Piet van Zyl, Pat Lambie, Lionel Mapoe.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Did anyone else cringe when they saw one of the (many) banners draped over the pitch before kickoff the last few weeks - the one that said 'this is not a stadium, this is our home'?

I didn't spot that, but it would explain a lot. If I played rugby in my home rather than a proper stadium, I don't think I'd play well at all. I'd too afraid of breaking stuff or tripping over clothes the kids have left on the floor.

Gwlad wrote:AWJ, Faletau, Tipuric, Webb if fit, Half, Liam, North (just) - that's 7 and I'm being generous

Liam would start, Faletau if he shows a return to form.

Others who i think could push for a place but would have to do so very hard
Baldwin, Warburton, G Davies, JD2, Moriarty

Agree Liam as a starter(if he starts passing to team mates).Moriarty,AWJ and Tipuric to tour.Webb as well if he loses a few pounds and quickens his game up.Given how Ireland,Scotland and England are going currently I think the rest have it all to do with respect to form and fitness.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Did anyone else cringe when they saw one of the (many) banners draped over the pitch before kickoff the last few weeks - the one that said 'this is not a stadium, this is our home'?

Though not as cringeworthy as a Hawaiian themed evening in the draughty corridors of CCS.

Gooseberry wrote:Which just goes to show they arent the only team thats had some dissapointments recently, and that theres a bit of a weakness in the rankings that they reflect wins above performances. The last time they had a real crisis they ended up ranked outside the top 8 for an extended period. This time everyone else is doing them a favour by being rubbish too.

Have to jump in there. It was only the 4th game of the 2012 AIs- the 12-14 loss to Australia- that put Wales into 9th position. They lost their next game at home to Ireland, then went on a run of wins that resulted in them winning the 2013 6Ns. I'm not sure when they went back into the top 8 during those 6Ns wins, but it was relatively soon, and hardly an extended stay outside that second tier in terms of games played. Unfortunately, it just so happened to be when the WC draw was made, so Wales went from Grand Slam, to 3rd tier seeds, to 6Ns winners, all in the space of 12 months. Annoying as it was, I'm not sure such a phenomenon is likely to occur again: if Wales are to drop out of the top 8 by May, when the seeding is taken for 2019, then it'll be a far more gradual and "fair" decline than the boom and bust and boom of the last one.

Griff wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Beating the 3N is at times more mental then anything on the pitch. Most teams would be saying... they lost to Italy and you still favour them????
However they still carry an aura with them (albeit its rapidly collapsing).

Funny stat.... SA have played Ireland, Argentina, Australia, Italy, New Zealand and England this season and all 6 have registered wins against them. Can Wales be the only team that falls short? They have to think that regardless of internal woes, they have to be beating this SA side now.

Yes, we always do.  What I really can't understand is how those teams who seem to fairly regularly beat the SH teams (England, Ireland, Scotland) can then often struggle against Wales in the 6N?  e.g. Scotland have beaten SA and Aus a few times in recent years yet they can't beat a Wales side that gets stuffed by the SH.  It doesn't add up!

It's Welsh mental fragility in playing the SH teams, rather than any problem with the other 6Ns teams. I do think that Wales might be getting a bit of a block when it comes to playing England however. That 2013 victory has, in the medium term, done all sorts of bad for Welsh rugby and English benefit. Add the WC victory in there, and England want to smash Wales every time they play them, and that will take a few more 6Ns wins until they get over that 'trauma'. Wales, however, rest on their laurels a bit having won that game in that manner. It's why new blood is needed. Some hungrier players. Just as the 2011 RWC breed did so well having not had experience of choking, I think a new breed needs to come in that a. hasn't been overly Mc-Gat-Eds-Ley-ised and can play non prescriptive rugby b. Doesn't have that experience of choking against the SH teams where the likes of Roberts and even Warburton now are becoming used to it and c. They also cannot rest on their laurels of "we've won Grand Slams" and "we've won Lions Tours".

Unfortunately, there regions simply aren't producing 7 or 8 Welsh starters in the way that the 2010/2011 season did. There's literally no one I can think of who is playing for the regions and knocking on the door, showing that they should be starting. Which is mad, considering that there are several positions up for the taking: wing, a reserve centre, certainly a utility back who can play 10, another scrum half, the reserve 8, blindside flanker, perhaps hooker, and also the two props. They're either too young and in danger of being too hyped, like Giles, or just seemingly not producing 'enough' for the regions and when they've had Wales opportunities, like Tyler Morgan, or Anscombe, or literally any other reserve position, particularly in the pack outside the 2nd row.

[quote="munkian"]Well, that's 3 Cardiff players that should never wear a Welsh shirt again.

Lloyd Williams, Cuthbert, and Anscombe?

Not sure why Anscombe seemed to get so much ridicule. He did alright. He was fine. He wasn't dreadful, but certainly didn't boss the game as the position demands. 5.5/10.

Cuthbert replicated his Wales form for the last two years. It's almost unfair to expect any better from him. The coaches should get the stick for repeatedly selecting someone whose basic skills, aside from running very fast, are not good enough for semi pro rugby, let alone test level.

Lloyd Williams had a particularly bad game considering he's often done as Anscombe did, 'alright, in these kind of games. I'd say in part it's the prescriptive rugby they're playing (badly), and he's not seeing what they've trained in the week outside him, hence his hesitancy. That said, when Wales play so much rugby from 9, he's far more accountable for not seizing the opportunity to boss the pack and get them playing the game, not their training patterns, than Anscombe.

I do feel in part the half backs were just symptomatic targets for the fact that the whole system is rotten to the core. It's easy to have a go at the Kiwi and the 3rd choice 9. Where was AWJ? Gethin? Warburton? These are the leaders. These are the forwards who should be taking it to the opposition, dictating how Wales play according to what's actually happening on the pitch. There was a point where AWJ pointed for the corner quite defiantly, and Warburton chose to take the three, after Gethin had gone off. You get the sense that all is not harmonious with the leadership group. It should start there. Start picking these players on merit, and then they don't have to worry about proving themselves on the pitch, and when they are selected they can lead and control games without that fear of discord, or feeling off the pace and needing to focus solely on their own performance.

Cuthbert is just an atrocious excuse for a rugby player. He shouldn't even be playing for the Blues. Let him go to England and actually learn how to graft as a winger in a league where he won't be able to hide. He's stealing a living off the game at the moment.

munkian wrote:I just guess the crowd noise when he gets the ball is always a little short lived.

Also quite racist, in my opinion. Aside from the kind of casual fan idiocy that seems to be much of a national rugby crowd, in laughing away at this pantomime call, I'm not sure a sport primarily watched by middle class white people who then call a black African man "beast" every time he touches the ball is something that should just be brushed off.

At best it's really embarrassing, a verbal Mexican wave. At worst it's some latent exotic freakshow, a modern form of voyeurism and spectacle. Don't call it a form of endearment, or just "banter" either. There's always sinister connotations under those banners.

Do any South Africans have an opinion on this?

As for his rugby ability, he seems to be a good Test level prop who's never looked out of place, though not knowing domestic South African rugby, I'm not sure whether there have been/are better players beneath him who haven't been selected whilst he's played.

fa0019 wrote:15 Johan Goosen, 14 Ruan Combrinck, 13 Francois Venter, 12 Rohan Janse van Rensburg, 11 Jamba Ulengo, 10 Elton Jantjies, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Warren Whiteley, 7 Uzair Cassiem, 6 Nizaam Carr, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 3 Lourens Adriaanse, 2 Adriaan Strauss (captain), 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Well thats one way to go when facing a crisis. Take away the locks and that's probably the weakest springbok side I've ever seen.

Welsh form aside I reckon this bok side will lose by 15+.

If the pack gets any decent ball for the backs, I think that's the most dangerous Springbok backline in years

munkian wrote:Look, can't we all just agree ROG lost us the series ?

Don't even remind me

Re: SA

They've taken the nuclear option, haven't they? They know they've probably lost their jobs, or at the very least need an unbelievable season next year to retain them any further than that. It's effectively "see what you can do boys".

On the one hand, the unknown is a blessing: it means disorganisation and inexperience. On the other, as loose as their team looks, I think it also has tries in it. That alone could win SA the game. Wales cannot score tries. The way they laboured over the line against Japan was painful. Lydiate and Roberts' tries felt like conceding a penalty they were so bad. There was no celebration from me. It was strange feeling, a hollow sensation seeing Wales reduced to this.

If teams score 20 points, generally they beat Wales. I think that SA team has at least two tries in them, regardless of how they are scored. Wales can probably squeeze one, possibly two, to go alongside Halfpenny's penalties that should come through greater structure and the slow, cohesive game that makes us all believe everything's going to be ok (until, of course, it doesn't).

The Boks' scrum dominated the French at times. That is a worry. If they have an upper hand in the set piece, it could be game over. With no foothold in the game, if/when they do throw it wide, and when those passes stop going into touch or to the floor, and they actually score a try, Wales can't get back into the game. Because they can't run the ball.

It's that simple for me. This SA team, as weak and as bad and as loose as it seems on paper, has an almost Barbarian elemenet to it in its inexperience. That should mean tries against a really poor defence. I'm not sure if our individual flair is enough to counter that, or at least to match it and hope we beat them with kicks, simply because no one commits to a break. No one anticipates one being made, so no one gets on the shoulder. Good luck Liam, score from halfway. Go on Tipuric, make an offload that beats three players and sends North into the corner.

Wales have to hope for set piece parity at worst. It's the only reason they won the 12-6 game two years ago: a scrum that at key times won them penalties whilst remaining solid the rest of the time, and an ill disciplined SA having even less bottle than Wales, who did their best to hand the game back to the Boks in the dying moments. I think solidity up front is integral to beating them on Saturday, simply because I don't think we can go toe to toe with a scratch side (how bad an indictment is that!) by looking to actually "play" rugby.

miaow wrote:

munkian wrote:I just guess the crowd noise when he gets the ball is always a little short lived.

Also quite racist, in my opinion. Aside from the kind of casual fan idiocy that seems to be much of a national rugby crowd, in laughing away at this pantomime call, I'm not sure a sport primarily watched by middle class white people who then call a black African man "beast" every time he touches the ball is something that should just be brushed off.

At best it's really embarrassing, a verbal Mexican wave. At worst it's some latent exotic freakshow, a modern form of voyeurism and spectacle. Don't call it a form of endearment, or just "banter" either. There's always sinister connotations under those banners.

Do any South Africans have an opinion on this?

As for his rugby ability, he seems to be a good Test level prop who's never looked out of place, though not knowing domestic South African rugby, I'm not sure whether there have been/are better players beneath him who haven't been selected whilst he's played.

I don't know; but the Beast seems to be a bit of a crowd favorite in SA as well as being a very good rugby player. Accusations of racism are unwarranted and downright stupid in my opinion. It is a shame that such talk has to rear its head every time we talk about SA rugby nowadays. I'm not a fan of the Mexican Wave either by the way.

...And back to the rugby; SA by 20. I would love to be proven wrong .

I think the term 'Mexican wave' is offensive

munkian wrote:I think the term 'Mexican wave' is offensive

Would you like a Tequila or Corona with that?

miaow wrote:

munkian wrote:I just guess the crowd noise when he gets the ball is always a little short lived.

Also quite racist, in my opinion. Aside from the kind of casual fan idiocy that seems to be much of a national rugby crowd, in laughing away at this pantomime call, I'm not sure a sport primarily watched by middle class white people who then call a black African man "beast" every time he touches the ball is something that should just be brushed off.

They called Pieter du Randt 'Os' (ox). I thought that was really offensive to oxen.

Wales 34-24 Biks.

I just want the Boks to win so the pressure came come onto howler et al in full measure.

Time to change the guard. By my calculations we will probably come 4th at best in 6 Nations. There is even potential for a trophy of the wooden variety since we play Italy away week 1. After a dismal autumn and a poor 6 Nations, Gatland may be forced to accept changes on his return from his latest sabbatical and with 2 years out from Japan it would be the right time. I SIMPLY CANNOT BELIEVE WE ARE FORCED TO ACCEPT THE SAME COACHING TEAM FOR 11 BLOODY YEARS!

We'll hear the usual story….3 X 6 Nations, 2 Grand Slams etc but nothing since Gats has been taking his regular holidays from his job.

Come on the Barely Boks.

I SIMPLY CANNOT BELIEVE WE ARE FORCED TO ACCEPT THE SAME COACHING TEAM FOR 11 BLOODY YEARS!

We'll hear the usual story….3 X 6 Nations, 2 Grand Slams etc but nothing since Gats has been taking his regular holidays from his job.



Believe it man Believe it.

yep, no one has turned up on here either….just like in the game itself

Pragmatic Wales. Not much more to say.

Wales seem to have no sense yet again. We are so lateral. Its all very well having quick hands through the backs but if the ball is coming so slow from the base what is the point of going wide so quick.

Frak this is dire! Like two past their best prizefighters slugging it out but missing more shots than hit and just leaning on each other. And what's white both sides taking an age to get to any set piece?

Notwithstanding just how poor Wales are, sorry to say but we may be watching SA rugby changing in a way that will take years to recover

Yea it's sad to see, it's like 2002 all over again.

monty junior wrote:Yea it's sad to see, it's like 2002 all over again.

Umm wasnt 2002 the last time Wales WON 3 games in November? How is that sad?

FFs Roberts is a former winger, why the hell not bring him on and leave Half at FB- who apparently HAS to be 15.

Sorry guys but this is a dire performance against one of the most terrible SA sides I have ever seen

This SA team is comically bad.

I'll take any win against any South African team. Hell, Wales have been so dire we really need it...

I'm actually embarrassed. How can two sides who played one of the great games 1 year ago be so utterly Poopie now

ha ha this is still on, cmon the boks please see Howley off the premises

Gwlad wrote:ha ha this is still on, cmon the boks please see Howley off the premises

Seriously? We have won 2 games against South Africa in our history and you want us to lose simply so Howley might not get the Wales job after 2019?

Shifty wrote:

Gwlad wrote:ha ha this is still on, cmon the boks please see Howley off the premises

Seriously?  We have won 2 games against South Africa in our history and you want us to lose simply so Howley might not get the Wales job after 2019?  

Seriously. And this is a Boks side only in name. Lets not kid ourselves, how many caps in our team, B & I Lions at home and we haven't converted one of the numerous attacks we have had versus a scratch side of totally inexperienced super rugby kids in a team fast falling to pieces.

Bugger

Gwlad wrote:

Shifty wrote:

Gwlad wrote:ha ha this is still on, cmon the boks please see Howley off the premises

Seriously?  We have won 2 games against South Africa in our history and you want us to lose simply so Howley might not get the Wales job after 2019?  

Seriously. And this is a Boks side only in name. Lets not kid ourselves, how many caps in our team, B & I Lions at home and we haven't converted one of the numerous attacks we have had versus a scratch side of totally inexperienced super rugby kids in a team fast falling to pieces.

I dont recall any South African person saying, hey we beat you 96-13 with a team full of reserves, lets not count that one. You can only beat whats put in front of you. It's not your fault if the opposition are poor.

Shifty wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Shifty wrote:

Gwlad wrote:ha ha this is still on, cmon the boks please see Howley off the premises

Seriously?  We have won 2 games against South Africa in our history and you want us to lose simply so Howley might not get the Wales job after 2019?  

Seriously. And this is a Boks side only in name. Lets not kid ourselves, how many caps in our team, B & I Lions at home and we haven't converted one of the numerous attacks we have had versus a scratch side of totally inexperienced super rugby kids in a team fast falling to pieces.

I dont recall any South African person saying, hey we beat you 96-13 with a team full of reserves, lets not count that one.  You can only beat whats put in front of you.  It's not your fault if the opposition are poor.  

It si if you play like Meat trombone soloist

Wales vs South Africa. Where rugby went to die!

Gwlad wrote:I'm actually embarrassed. How can two sides who played one of the great games 1 year ago be so utterly Poopie now

Coetzee and Howley

55,000 people at the game, ouch people are turning away from the game in droves, that game used to sell out every time, worrying for us.

Dont be ridiculous, we're amazing. Its all about the W right. 75% win rate under Howley, amazing coach and he is a shoo in to go on the Lions tour. Wales showing the way forward for the rest of the Home Nations.

Yours Sincerely

The WRU

Well! A record-breaking performance for the Boks...The first time that they've not won a single game in the AIs

Gwlad wrote:Dont be ridiculous, we're amazing. Its all about the W right. 75% win rate under Howley, amazing coach and he is a shoo in to go on the Lions tour. Wales showing the way forward for the rest of the Home Nations.  

Yours Sincerely

The WRU

Exactly.

As if he had the nerve to say they put into the game what they practised in training. Blinking heck

I said after the Oz game if we win this series of games 3-1, and we won't have a diabolical thrashing in the 6N, that Howley will be in prime position for the Coach job after the 2019 WC, so the first part of the test has been accomplished.
I honestly thought that was better today and you could see the small recovery shoots of the new plan, and I think we would have won by a lot more if Faletau had been fully fit and had started this game.
I'm really not trying to antagonise anyone, but essential to this new plan is to have a firing Tipuric, which we had today, the best backrow available to Wales finished the match today.

Good points I thought:

- Tips - less effective than Warbs in rucks, but made up for that with stripping etc (ooer missus)
- AWJ hit thousands of rucks and actually offloaded in contact
- Faletau's interplay with Tips

...errm..

...the Boks were terrible?

Well played Wales a good win today. Only managed to watch the second half, but fron what i did see some good play from all the players. A great try from tips in the end.

Again well done it might not of been SA best team's, but you can only play what is in front of you and Waled did that today.

Tips was an outlier. We were poor everywhere and have been flattered to deceive. Wales ought to take nothing form the manner of this pyrrhic victory.

Other than an SA team who played Ireland soon after their return to the international game that's the poorest SA team i've ever seen.As for Wales,Gatland and Howley have destroyed Welsh back play.It was painful to watch Gareth D Dan B,JD2,Scott W,North and Liam W pretend to be an international standard backline.A win is a win but we are far behind NZ,Aus,England,Ireland and Scotland.On today's performances only Moriarty Faletau and Tipuric should go to NZ.Congrats again to Ireland.

I watched a re run of the 2013 6 Nations decider v England, our backs are on fire, helped of course by Tipuric. Enough of the BS about a new style of play, we're fast regressing. I barely noticed SW today unless he was trying to bash it up a la Doc.

I hate Howley and the WRU for Frak up Welsh rugby for the next 3 years so that Gatland can fulfill private ambitions.

majesticimperialman wrote:Well played Wales a good win  today. Only managed to watch the second half, but fron what i did see some good play from all the players. A great try from tips in the end.

Again well done it might not of been SA best team's, but you can only play what is in front of you and Waled did that today.

Not sure if this is you being gracious or trying to have a break from trying (and failing) to be clever.

RiscaGame wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Well played Wales a good win  today. Only managed to watch the second half, but fron what i did see some good play from all the players. A great try from tips in the end.

Again well done it might not of been SA best team's, but you can only play what is in front of you and Waled did that today.

Not sure if this is you being gracious or trying to have a break from trying (and failing) to be clever.

Why can you not except the FACT that all i was doing was giving Wales praise for beating South Africa.


After all is it not only the 3rd time of doing so.? So once again well done Wales.

Any victory against the Boks is to be savoured.
Who cares about the circumstances - those WR ranking points are invaluable.