Wards Legacy!

First topic message reminder :

http://www.boxingnews24.com/2016/11/andre-ward-can-surpass-mayweathers-pacquiaos-legacy/#more-221864

I normally go on boxing 24 for a laugh and thought no way can he surpass these guys. But the further I read into the article, the more I started to agree.

Light Heavyweight is becoming a very tough division. If Ward can somehow beat them all and cap it off with a win against GGG, he would be HUGE!

Now I am not saying Ward can do this. Perhaps Kovalev will knock his block off next. Who knows?

But if he finished his career in that style, he would be something else.

Ward is not a great puncher, so I can't imagine many ducking him. Lets just hope if his star grows, he doesn't do the high risk low reward road like Floyd and Manny. That is always a danger.

On the flipside, read the article and imagine Kovalev wins the rematch and takes out all comers. He won't have dominated 2 divisions, but he would be one of the most dominating light heavies ever. At least in the last 20-30 years.

There is no malice in this thread and I'm happy to discuss it with anyone. though a bit of banter is more than welcome. I won't wind anyone up.

I stand corrected on the rematch then as I say wasn't following things too closely back then

catchweight wrote:Jones did not shun a hopkins rematch. Hopkins wanted a 50/50 split and the rematch at a catchweight. See you later bernard. I think kovalev would be a dangerous opponent for jones. Jones was fragile, albeit wonderfully talented.

Kovalev vs Jones would have been a wonderful fight. Jones wouldn't have spoiled or ran, he'd have tried to take him out. And like Ward, Jones would have took him on at his best (unlike some others). You have to respect that.

The point I touched upon earlier was Roy's bust for anabolic steroids. I know he gets a Lucas Browne-level pardon on here but you don't move from middle to heavy and look that ripped usually (while exhibiting freakish athleticism).

Roy would likely have been a light heavy with same-day weigh-ins. I fancy he wouldn't have had a spotless record in the 80s mix.

BoxingFan88 wrote:

Herman Jaeger wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I can see a pig jumping over the moon in my head but it's never going to happen.

I dread to think what goes on in your mind

Kovalev unpredictably quick it could happen and it wouldn't even need to be his best shot Roy's lack of world class whiskers..

Roy was only chinny when he came back down from Heavyweight

Did he even go down prior to that? Was he ever wobbled?

He was rarely caught. Lou Del Valle dropped him but that was more a well-timed shot than a power punch.

Fighters don't suddenly turn "chinny". Roy's chin wasn't the best but he rarely got caught clean.

He'd come off whatever he'd taken to make heavyweight and so perhaps messed up his weight - but he wasn't shot against Tarver. Tarver was the best light heavyweight he'd faced (and who knows what he was on in the Jones fights, considering his subsequent busts?).

How do you know Leonard and Hagler didn't take Roids? They weren't caught,but I would be surprised Leonard was clean at 160-168.

I don't know If Jones would be undefeated in the 80's, but I would make him favourite over anyone.

If anyone wonders why? My eyes work and I think he was better than anybody in that era.

Head to head, I struggle to pick anyone to beat him, even my beloved Floyd.

The 80s light heavyweights would be tough going for jones. The were talented and tough fighters that could fight at a terrific pace over 15. Most of em were tougher than jones and if not as takented as jones, they could grind him down in tough fights. I wouldnt like to call a lot of them.

catchweight wrote:The 80s light heavyweights would be tough going for jones. The were talented and tough fighters that could fight at a terrific pace over 15. Most of em were tougher than jones and if not as takented as jones, they could grind him down in tough fights. I wouldnt like to call a lot of them.

I agree. He'd have made that mix even more exciting but wouldn't have dominated. I could see a lot of contests looking like the first Tarver fight with Jones a tad sharper.

If Jones was in that era of 160-175, I think he would easily make a top 10 list.

I think he would dominate. Jones Jr was sensational

What the hell is Ward on about he got $5m as the challenger in the fight the other night to the champion Kovalev's $2m:


http://www.boxingscene.com/ward-kovalev-team-realize-rematch-talks-different--111104

There's a tendency to downplay certain boxers ability because they won so easily and choose to make out that their opposition was worse than it was and to equally over rate past greats opposition because they struggled in fights.

Jones fought and beat a lot of quality operators, he unfortunately beat them too easily.

Similar to Tyson in a way. He didn't beat great fighters (bar old Holmes and light Spinks), but he beat some very good fighters.

Plenty including myself at times down play Tyson because of the manner of his victories. Jones Jr is definitely similar in that way. For a ten year period, he truly looked unbeatable!

There's some merit to Hopkins being a bit green considering he had no amateur background but he wouldn't lose again for 12 years dominating the Middleweight division in that time.

Gonzalez, Woods, Johnson, Harding, Hill, Griffin and even an ageing McCallum were all very good Light Heavyweights. Castro, Malinga and Tate were all top class Middleweights too, there's the usual amount of filler in there but that's par for the course for any long standing champion.

Herman Jaeger wrote:What the hell is Ward on about he got $5m as the challenger in the fight the other night to the champion Kovalev's $2m:


http://www.boxingscene.com/ward-kovalev-team-realize-rematch-talks-different--111104

I mentioned how much Ward got on the other thread. Team Kovalev I think, screwed up, first with the American ref, then the judges and how Ward got more than twice as much as Kovalev is a mystery to me. If Kovalev got only got $2 million for this fight then I wonder how little he's received for his other title defences?

Also, I've read comments in the past about how GGG should make the sacrifices to make a Ward fight happen. If he saw Saturdays fight, and heard the terms that Kovalev had to take to make the fight happen, then he's totally justified in holding out for a deal that makes him happy in my view.

You would think that after all the controversy there has been over the fight, Ward would want to have a rematch to prove he's the better man. But no, he's talking like an donkey.

Ward offered golovkin 50:50. He turned it down, thought he was the bigger draw - and in reality he was expecting to get the Alvarez gig, which would have been for shedloads more.

Ward has big financial backing from Roc Nation so will always get the lions share and Golovkin isn't interested in anyone above Middleweight.

I'll have to take your word for that Milky. What Team Ward have said to the press may be totally different to what was offered behind closed doors.

Whatever financial terms they agree to, they definitely need to have more neutral officials.

Can understand why people don't like Ward when he comes out with stuff like this a real pain

Kov wins the rematch easier

He couldn't win it harder now could he considering he LOST.

ok..

Oh dear lord

Ward has a history of ripping people off

He did it with Sean Monaghan

On the note of the $5 million vs $2 million I think Kovalev got a higher PPV cut

BoxingFan88 wrote:Oh dear lord

Ward has a history of ripping people off

He did it with Sean Monaghan

On the note of the $5 million vs $2 million I think Kovalev got a higher PPV cut

I read that too. But it's going to need a hell of a lot of PPV sales for him to get close to Ward's $5 million, and I don't think the fight accomplished that.

Yeah but he took it to make the fight, so props to Kovalev

Ward better not duck out of the rematch or price himself out, its really really bad for boxing if this fight doesn't happen

I see Andre wants a bigger cut of the ppv next time fair enough I guess

But why not keep the negotiations behind closed doors?

Herman Jaeger wrote:I see Andre wants a bigger cut of the ppv next time fair enough I guess

But why not keep the negotiations behind closed doors?

So he wants more than double what Kovalev gets?

Bearing in mind PPV for the second fight will be much bigger

I think its gonna explode like Froch vs Groves II did

As long as Kovalev gets a higher purse I'm happy for Ward to get a higher cut of the ppv so that their earnings are comparable

Would PPV be that much bigger, it wasn't exactly a thrilling fight nor does it involve particularly likeable boxers.

Atila wrote:I'll have to take your word for that Milky. What Team Ward have said to the press may be totally different to what was offered behind closed doors.

Whatever financial terms they agree to, they definitely need to have more neutral officials.

Don't take my word fella, take Golovkin's promoter's word:

https://www.boxingnews24.com/2015/09/golovkins-promoter-explains-why-they-didnt-take-ward-fight/amp/?client=safari


I guess the terms of the first fight reflect who wanted/needed it more. But you'd think you'd have the terms of a rematch fixed in the initial contract, otherwise there's going to be wriggle room.

Personally, I'm not bothered about seeing it. I can't see the action being  a lot different, so it'll just be down to what the judges call and the viewers prefer. I'd rather see either of them in with Stevenson or golovkin. Hey we can dream.

milkyboy wrote:

Atila wrote:I'll have to take your word for that Milky. What Team Ward have said to the press may be totally different to what was offered behind closed doors.

Whatever financial terms they agree to, they definitely need to have more neutral officials.

Don't take my word fella, take Golovkin's promoter's word:

https://www.boxingnews24.com/2015/09/golovkins-promoter-explains-why-they-didnt-take-ward-fight/amp/?client=safari


I guess the terms of the first fight reflect who wanted/needed it more. But you'd think you'd have the terms of a rematch fixed in the initial contract, otherwise there's going to be wriggle room.

Personally, I'm not bothered about seeing it. I can't see the action being  a lot different, so it'll just be down to what the judges call and the viewers prefer. I'd rather see either of them in with Stevenson or golovkin. Hey we can dream.

Kovalev deserves to have a chance to get his belts back

Unlike Ward he didn't get them handed to him on his front door step

Don't dispute that BF. Just there are other fights I personally would prefer to see.

milkyboy wrote:

Atila wrote:I'll have to take your word for that Milky. What Team Ward have said to the press may be totally different to what was offered behind closed doors.

Whatever financial terms they agree to, they definitely need to have more neutral officials.

Don't take my word fella, take Golovkin's promoter's word:

https://www.boxingnews24.com/2015/09/golovkins-promoter-explains-why-they-didnt-take-ward-fight/amp/?client=safari


I guess the terms of the first fight reflect who wanted/needed it more. But you'd think you'd have the terms of a rematch fixed in the initial contract, otherwise there's going to be wriggle room.

Personally, I'm not bothered about seeing it. I can't see the action being  a lot different, so it'll just be down to what the judges call and the viewers prefer. I'd rather see either of them in with Stevenson or golovkin. Hey we can dream.

Fair enough on GGG's promoter.

As for you not being bothered about them having a rematch. It wasn't a great fight, though I've already said that I would have enjoyed it more if I'd seen it live. To be honest, neither of them "grabbed the moment". That said, if Kovalev wants a rematch, then I think he deserves one regardless of whether he had a rematch clause or not.

Agree with that fella. I enjoyed watching it live, it was gripping and had plenty of tension. I just feel like I know what to expect next time (more of the same). I'm not against it, I'd just rather that  another big fight could be made.

The reality is that probably wouldn't happen anyway so we should be thankful for a return rather than kovalev v Paul  smith.

Atila wrote:

Herman Jaeger wrote:What the hell is Ward on about he got $5m as the challenger in the fight the other night to the champion Kovalev's $2m:


http://www.boxingscene.com/ward-kovalev-team-realize-rematch-talks-different--111104

I mentioned how much Ward got on the other thread. Team Kovalev I think, screwed up, first with the American ref, then the judges and how Ward got more than twice as much as Kovalev is a mystery to me. If Kovalev got only got $2 million for this fight then I wonder how little he's received for his other title defences?

Also, I've read comments in the past about how GGG should make the sacrifices to make a Ward fight happen. If he saw Saturdays fight, and heard the terms that Kovalev had to take to make the fight happen, then he's totally justified in holding out for a deal that makes him happy in my view.

You would think that after all the controversy there has been over the fight, Ward would want to have a rematch to prove he's the better man. But no, he's talking like an donkey.

Apparently, SK's purse against Hopkins was only $0.5m - and he'd clear maybe only a quarter of that.

I believe the PPV price for Ward was high $60-plus and so hopefully SK added a couple mil to his purse.

One of the worst things about Ward receiving the gift he did was that he'll now be an absolute nightmare to negotiate with. He'll probably demand the return takes place in Oakland!

It would be good for the sport if the rematch happened but equally, I'd like to see one of them take care of Stevenson for the lineal crown.

AdamT wrote:Similar to Tyson in a way. He didn't beat great fighters (bar old Holmes and light Spinks), but he beat some very good fighters.

Plenty including myself at times down play Tyson because of the manner of his victories. Jones Jr is definitely similar in that way. For a ten year period, he truly looked unbeatable!

And yet this is the same poster who criticises Golovkin for exactly the same thing: looking sensational against only decent opposition!

GGG had the option of moving to 168.

Also Brook is no Spinks. And I reckon Holmes, Thomas, Bruno, Ruddock etc are better than the turd GGG faced.

GGG excellent fighter, that faces absolute rubbish. You love watching bum beating, don't you Haz?

AdamT wrote:GGG had the option of moving to 168.

Also Brook is no Spinks. And I reckon Holmes, Thomas, Bruno, Ruddock etc are better than the turd GGG faced.

GGG excellent fighter, that faces absolute rubbish. You  love watching bum beating, don't you Haz?

Not particularly. I prefer to see the best fighters fight one another at their best. In that respect, it's been a good fortnight.

But rich jacking off about Tyson and Jones dominating overmatched opposition yet castigating Golovkin for the same. He's just as dominant as the aforementioned duo - yet more avoided.

I said GGG is an excellent fighter with turd resume.

Anyway we can agree to disagree on GGG.

Is that fair enough??

Turd is harsh, but it is pretty poor.

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:GGG had the option of moving to 168.

Also Brook is no Spinks. And I reckon Holmes, Thomas, Bruno, Ruddock etc are better than the turd GGG faced.

GGG excellent fighter, that faces absolute rubbish. You  love watching bum beating, don't you Haz?

Not particularly. I prefer to see the best fighters fight one another at their best. In that respect, it's been a good fortnight.

But rich jacking off about Tyson and Jones dominating overmatched opposition yet castigating Golovkin for the same. He's just as dominant as the aforementioned duo - yet more avoided.

Wait does Golovkin have James Toney and Bernard Hopkins on his record then? He doesn't so Jones' record is far superior, even an ageing McCallum up at 175lbs is better than almost all his opposition, add in Gonzalez, Griffin, Harding, Johnson, Castro, Tate and being a four weight world champion then it becomes a nonsense comparison.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:GGG had the option of moving to 168.

Also Brook is no Spinks. And I reckon Holmes, Thomas, Bruno, Ruddock etc are better than the turd GGG faced.

GGG excellent fighter, that faces absolute rubbish. You  love watching bum beating, don't you Haz?

Not particularly. I prefer to see the best fighters fight one another at their best. In that respect, it's been a good fortnight.

But rich jacking off about Tyson and Jones dominating overmatched opposition yet castigating Golovkin for the same. He's just as dominant as the aforementioned duo - yet more avoided.

Wait does Golovkin have James Toney and Bernard Hopkins on his record then? He doesn't so Jones' record is far superior, even an ageing McCallum up at 175lbs is better than almost all his opposition, add in Gonzalez, Griffin, Harding, Johnson, Castro, Tate and being a four weight world champion then it becomes a nonsense comparison.

Everyone knows that but you said:

"There's a tendency to downplay certain boxers ability because they won so easily and choose to make out that their opposition was worse than it was and to equally over rate past greats opposition because they struggled in fights.

Jones fought and beat a lot of quality operators, he unfortunately beat them too easily."

Which is exactly what you do with Golovkin. Anyone rates Golovkin and you chuck his opposition at them. Anyone criticises the level of opposition of modern fighters and you claim they're being biased towards fighters from previous generations (who didn't really beat quality oppo, it only looked that way because the fights were closer than the likes of Jones and Tyson were involved in).

The same sort of nonsensical argument I've seen you make about GGG not actually being avoided (all a sham apparently).

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:GGG had the option of moving to 168.

Also Brook is no Spinks. And I reckon Holmes, Thomas, Bruno, Ruddock etc are better than the turd GGG faced.

GGG excellent fighter, that faces absolute rubbish. You  love watching bum beating, don't you Haz?

Not particularly. I prefer to see the best fighters fight one another at their best. In that respect, it's been a good fortnight.

But rich jacking off about Tyson and Jones dominating overmatched opposition yet castigating Golovkin for the same. He's just as dominant as the aforementioned duo - yet more avoided.

Wait does Golovkin have James Toney and Bernard Hopkins on his record then? He doesn't so Jones' record is far superior, even an ageing McCallum up at 175lbs is better than almost all his opposition, add in Gonzalez, Griffin, Harding, Johnson, Castro, Tate and being a four weight world champion then it becomes a nonsense comparison.

Spot on.....Couldn't have put it better myself

hazharrison wrote:Which is exactly what you do with Golovkin. Anyone rates Golovkin and you chuck his opposition at them. Anyone criticises the level of opposition of modern fighters and you claim they're being biased towards fighters from previous generations (who didn't really beat quality oppo, it only looked that way because the fights were closer than the likes of Jones and Tyson were involved in).

The same sort of nonsensical argument I've seen you make about GGG not actually being avoided (all a sham apparently).

Golovkin's opposition has been so poor, his reluctance to move up in weight and lacking Jones' talent make the comparison irrelevant, there is a world of difference between making James Toney look ordinary and beating up Martin Murray and Matthew Macklin.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Which is exactly what you do with Golovkin. Anyone rates Golovkin and you chuck his opposition at them. Anyone criticises the level of opposition of modern fighters and you claim they're being biased towards fighters from previous generations (who didn't really beat quality oppo, it only looked that way because the fights were closer than the likes of Jones and Tyson were involved in).

The same sort of nonsensical argument I've seen you make about GGG not actually being avoided (all a sham apparently).

Golovkin's opposition has been so poor, his reluctance to move up in weight and lacking Jones' talent make the comparison irrelevant, there is a world of difference between making James Toney look ordinary and beating up Martin Murray and Matthew Macklin.

No-one is arguing that point. I'm talking your remark about downplaying a fighter's ability because they won so easily ala Jones & Tyson.

Mr Bounce wrote:It's an interesting question and depends entirely on the rematch. If Kovalev beats him convincingly, he got lucky in the first and ain't all that. If he outclasses Kovalev then he should have all the plaudits.
However if he blocks and mauls his way to a questionable points win over every LHW he faces next, most boxing fans will likely be asleep.

Fantastic boxer. Dull as beige paint to watch.

No it doesn't...Kovo is a top win regardless.

Might as well say Duran v Leonard 1 doesn't count..

You don't like Ward so he's judged differently??

Don't think so.

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Which is exactly what you do with Golovkin. Anyone rates Golovkin and you chuck his opposition at them. Anyone criticises the level of opposition of modern fighters and you claim they're being biased towards fighters from previous generations (who didn't really beat quality oppo, it only looked that way because the fights were closer than the likes of Jones and Tyson were involved in).

The same sort of nonsensical argument I've seen you make about GGG not actually being avoided (all a sham apparently).

Golovkin's opposition has been so poor, his reluctance to move up in weight and lacking Jones' talent make the comparison irrelevant, there is a world of difference between making James Toney look ordinary and beating up Martin Murray and Matthew Macklin.

No-one is arguing that point. I'm talking your remark about downplaying a fighter's ability because they won so easily ala Jones & Tyson.

You're doing what you normally do and force feeding Golovkin into a debate that has nothing to do with him, it's probably hard for you to understand but Jones beat very good opposition easily whilst GGG has yet to fight anyone that good. I'm going to say that Jones' pre title win over Castro is better than anything on his record.

A lot of boxers throughout history can make good fighters look ordinary but only great ones can make fellow greats look ordinary.

Kov has Wards number, period!

Started with his Diva tactics already. His camp will do whatever it takes to delay / avoid a rematch. They'll probs try and get a fight with Cleverly.

Way too many killers at LHW for Ward. He got no business in that division. Think about it -

Beterbiev
Adonis
Bivol
Mekhonstev
Gvozdyk

In my opinion these guys all beat Ward.

Dylan1979 wrote:Kov has Wards number, period!

Started with his Diva tactics already. His camp will do whatever it takes to delay / avoid a rematch. They'll probs try and get a fight with Cleverly.

Way too many killers at LHW for Ward. He got no business in that division. Think about it -

Beterbiev
Adonis
Bivol
Mekhonstev
Gvozdyk

In my opinion these guys all beat Ward.

Yet he beat the best of them in Kovalev, talk about over egging the pudding yet again.

The judges beat Kov

Andre Ward did.

I don't even know who Bivol, Mekhonstev and Gvozdyk yet you think they all beat Ward, a quick check on Mekhonstev shows him drawing against a nobody must be an absolute world beater.

Well lets see if Ward is a real champ and fights these guys or just sits at home or in court. We all know how much he loves sitting in court.

I don't think a real champion fights the likes of Bivol or Mekhonstev, boxing fans would expect a little bit more than that.

Seeing as he holds wins over Kovalev, Froch, Dawson, Kessler and Abraham it's odd to see him accused of being a ducker.

oh btw...as per Queensbury Rules ( The Official Rules Of Boxing )

Clinching
Wrestling
Headbutts
Elbows

...are not boxing, they are all fouls. Ward spends most of his time in the ring fouling instead of legit / legal boxing....ask Kessler!

But I guess rules don't matter anymore right?