Wards Legacy!
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Dylan1979
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Boxing
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Wards Legacy!
First topic message reminder :
http://www.boxingnews24.com/2016/11/andre-ward-can-surpass-mayweathers-pacquiaos-legacy/#more-221864
I normally go on boxing 24 for a laugh and thought no way can he surpass these guys. But the further I read into the article, the more I started to agree.
Light Heavyweight is becoming a very tough division. If Ward can somehow beat them all and cap it off with a win against GGG, he would be HUGE!
Now I am not saying Ward can do this. Perhaps Kovalev will knock his block off next. Who knows?
But if he finished his career in that style, he would be something else.
Ward is not a great puncher, so I can't imagine many ducking him. Lets just hope if his star grows, he doesn't do the high risk low reward road like Floyd and Manny. That is always a danger.
On the flipside, read the article and imagine Kovalev wins the rematch and takes out all comers. He won't have dominated 2 divisions, but he would be one of the most dominating light heavies ever. At least in the last 20-30 years.
There is no malice in this thread and I'm happy to discuss it with anyone. though a bit of banter is more than welcome. I won't wind anyone up.
http://www.boxingnews24.com/2016/11/andre-ward-can-surpass-mayweathers-pacquiaos-legacy/#more-221864
I normally go on boxing 24 for a laugh and thought no way can he surpass these guys. But the further I read into the article, the more I started to agree.
Light Heavyweight is becoming a very tough division. If Ward can somehow beat them all and cap it off with a win against GGG, he would be HUGE!
Now I am not saying Ward can do this. Perhaps Kovalev will knock his block off next. Who knows?
But if he finished his career in that style, he would be something else.
Ward is not a great puncher, so I can't imagine many ducking him. Lets just hope if his star grows, he doesn't do the high risk low reward road like Floyd and Manny. That is always a danger.
On the flipside, read the article and imagine Kovalev wins the rematch and takes out all comers. He won't have dominated 2 divisions, but he would be one of the most dominating light heavies ever. At least in the last 20-30 years.
There is no malice in this thread and I'm happy to discuss it with anyone. though a bit of banter is more than welcome. I won't wind anyone up.
AdamT- Posts : 6651
Join date : 2014-03-27
Re: Wards Legacy!
Does the Kovalev win over Hopkins somewhat downplay Jones' domination of Bernard or does it mean that both Kovalev AND Jones are, in a boxing sense, something of a phenomenon?
They both played with him a first ballot hofer..
They both played with him a first ballot hofer..
Herman Jaeger- Posts : 3532
Join date : 2011-11-10
Re: Wards Legacy!
Herman Jaeger wrote:Does the Kovalev win over Hopkins somewhat downplay Jones' domination of Bernard or does it mean that both Kovalev AND Jones are, in a boxing sense, something of a phenomenon?
They both played with him a first ballot hofer..
Hopkins wasn't at his best in both fights - and so any praise/criticism should be tempered accordingly.
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
Join date : 2011-03-26
Re: Wards Legacy!
What Rules are they Haz?? My mystic powers have disappeared.
AdamT- Posts : 6651
Join date : 2014-03-27
Re: Wards Legacy!
If both Kovalev and Ward are a notch up from Bernard also (if) then maybe wasn't such a phenomenal achievement by Jones to dominate a (green for the sake of argument) Hopkins
Toney chronically drained for their fight too so maybe just maybe people going overboard on Jones a mite the rest of his resume not that great?
Jones never had to face a Kovalev or a Ward just sayin
Toney chronically drained for their fight too so maybe just maybe people going overboard on Jones a mite the rest of his resume not that great?
Jones never had to face a Kovalev or a Ward just sayin
Herman Jaeger- Posts : 3532
Join date : 2011-11-10
Re: Wards Legacy!
Kovelav and Ward are not better than a prime Jones.
My eyes work and I know Jones would of played with these guys.
My eyes work and I know Jones would of played with these guys.
AdamT- Posts : 6651
Join date : 2014-03-27
Re: Wards Legacy!
Don't see anyone playing with Kovalev to be honest Kov also brings the fear factor and Roy knows deep down what we would later find out..
Herman Jaeger- Posts : 3532
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Re: Wards Legacy!
Jones beats him easy. To fast, too much quality. Go back and watch Jones in his prime.
AdamT- Posts : 6651
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Re: Wards Legacy!
I doubt that Jones at his peak would be particularly wary of Kovalev, the speed difference is such that he'd be in cruise control and he was a great puncher too so would have him on the back foot, not even close.
Kov's win over Hopkins is in no way comparable to Jones', it was 20+ years later against an old man albeit one still capable of beating the fringe contenders.
Kov's win over Hopkins is in no way comparable to Jones', it was 20+ years later against an old man albeit one still capable of beating the fringe contenders.
Hammersmith harrier- Posts : 12060
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Re: Wards Legacy!
Hammersmith underrating Kovalev's speed again remember he wasn't supposed to get anywhere near Ward..
Herman Jaeger- Posts : 3532
Join date : 2011-11-10
Re: Wards Legacy!
Hammersmith is right on this occasion. Ward is fast, but he isn't Jones Jr. Kovalev would be played with.
AdamT- Posts : 6651
Join date : 2014-03-27
Re: Wards Legacy!
Tarver and the slow as molasses Glen gets to Roy but Kovy can't...
ok..
ok..
Herman Jaeger- Posts : 3532
Join date : 2011-11-10
Re: Wards Legacy!
I like BF88 tend to ignore Jones' post Heavyweight career, using the Tarver and Johnson fights is akin to using Harrington and Archer against Robinson, the same boxer in name only.
Hammersmith harrier- Posts : 12060
Join date : 2013-09-26
Re: Wards Legacy!
Herman Jaeger wrote:Tarver and the slow as molasses Glen gets to Roy but Kovy can't...
ok..
Did Jones not come down from Heavyweight? Herman don't be silly!
AdamT- Posts : 6651
Join date : 2014-03-27
Re: Wards Legacy!
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I like BF88 tend to ignore Jones' post Heavyweight career, using the Tarver and Johnson fights is akin to using Harrington and Archer against Robinson, the same boxer in name only.
I want to use Holmes and Berbick for Ali.
What about Camacho and Norris for Sugar Ray??
AdamT- Posts : 6651
Join date : 2014-03-27
Re: Wards Legacy!
You Jones fanboys eh you won't hear a negative word about your man. Nobody knew at the time Jones was past it that's revisionist to say that whereas obvious the two Rays were shells when they fought the names you mention
Also Hopkins and Jones were tailored for Roy, Kovalev most certainly isn't tougher test than both those two imo
Take your point on Roy not being the same after his heavyweight foray you're probably right though but he wasn't obviously shot coming into that first ko loss that you must surely concede
Also Hopkins and Jones were tailored for Roy, Kovalev most certainly isn't tougher test than both those two imo
Take your point on Roy not being the same after his heavyweight foray you're probably right though but he wasn't obviously shot coming into that first ko loss that you must surely concede
Herman Jaeger- Posts : 3532
Join date : 2011-11-10
Re: Wards Legacy!
Roy's opposition at 175 wasn't great - until he fought Tarver and Johnson (at which point he'd started to fade).
Both Ward and Kovalev would have been the best he faced at light heavy and so I strongly doubt anyone would be played with.
Kovalev has enough power to lay Roy down and Ward is awkward enough to have given him a fight (Montell Griffin showed that Roy could be slowed down).
I'd still favour Jones over both - but they'd be really tough fights.
Both Ward and Kovalev would have been the best he faced at light heavy and so I strongly doubt anyone would be played with.
Kovalev has enough power to lay Roy down and Ward is awkward enough to have given him a fight (Montell Griffin showed that Roy could be slowed down).
I'd still favour Jones over both - but they'd be really tough fights.
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
Join date : 2011-03-26
Re: Wards Legacy!
Herman Jaeger wrote:You Jones fanboys eh you won't hear a negative word about your man. Nobody knew at the time Jones was past it that's revisionist to say that whereas obvious the two Rays were shells when they fought the names you mention
Also Hopkins and Jones were tailored for Roy, Kovalev most certainly isn't tougher test than both those two imo
Take your point on Roy not being the same after his heavyweight foray you're probably right though but he wasn't obviously shot coming into that first ko loss that you must surely concede
Yeah, load of tut he was shot post-heavyweight. The idea he was as over the hill as SRL and Ali were against HC and TB is ridiculous.
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
Join date : 2011-03-26
Re: Wards Legacy!
Nobody ever knows a boxer is shot until they are, we don't have a crystal ball that allows to see into the future, even in the first Tarver fight which he won it was clear he had slowed down significantly, labouring to a points win.
Hopkins was tailor made for anybody, even as a youngish man he was awkward to face and deceptively fast, he aside from Griffin provided Jones with his toughest test where he had to rely on his boxing rather than physical gifts. Kovalev isn't quick enough to trouble Jones in his pomp, power means bugger all if you can't catch the other man.
Hopkins was tailor made for anybody, even as a youngish man he was awkward to face and deceptively fast, he aside from Griffin provided Jones with his toughest test where he had to rely on his boxing rather than physical gifts. Kovalev isn't quick enough to trouble Jones in his pomp, power means bugger all if you can't catch the other man.
Hammersmith harrier- Posts : 12060
Join date : 2013-09-26
Re: Wards Legacy!
hazharrison wrote:Herman Jaeger wrote:You Jones fanboys eh you won't hear a negative word about your man. Nobody knew at the time Jones was past it that's revisionist to say that whereas obvious the two Rays were shells when they fought the names you mention
Also Hopkins and Jones were tailored for Roy, Kovalev most certainly isn't tougher test than both those two imo
Take your point on Roy not being the same after his heavyweight foray you're probably right though but he wasn't obviously shot coming into that first ko loss that you must surely concede
Yeah, load of tut he was shot post-heavyweight. The idea he was as over the hill as SRL and Ali were against HC and TB is ridiculous.
He had to lose a load of weight in his 30's. I imagine it done a fair bit of damage. He wasn't as far gone as Ali, but he was definitely not at his best.
AdamT- Posts : 6651
Join date : 2014-03-27
Re: Wards Legacy!
Haz I still think you're a bit of a troll. A subtle one, but a troll none the less.
Please don't respond with me being immature for stating my honest opinion. You can say what you want about me, so take on the chin.
Please don't respond with me being immature for stating my honest opinion. You can say what you want about me, so take on the chin.
AdamT- Posts : 6651
Join date : 2014-03-27
Re: Wards Legacy!
I could still see Kovalev clipping Roy at some point though..
Herman Jaeger- Posts : 3532
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Re: Wards Legacy!
I can see a pig jumping over the moon in my head but it's never going to happen.
Hammersmith harrier- Posts : 12060
Join date : 2013-09-26
Re: Wards Legacy!
hazharrison wrote:Jones wouldn't have been a welterweight/middleweight in the 80s. He'd have been in with Spinks/Muhammed/Qawi etc.
Like Pacquiao, he was a physical freak. Who knows whether he'd have been the same freakish athlete under 80s rules?
80s rules?
BoxingFan88- Posts : 3759
Join date : 2011-02-20
Re: Wards Legacy!
BoxingFan88 wrote:hazharrison wrote:Jones wouldn't have been a welterweight/middleweight in the 80s. He'd have been in with Spinks/Muhammed/Qawi etc.
Like Pacquiao, he was a physical freak. Who knows whether he'd have been the same freakish athlete under 80s rules?
80s rules?
Probably talking about PEDS or some other tripe. I asked him to clarify, but he chose to ignore.
AdamT- Posts : 6651
Join date : 2014-03-27
Re: Wards Legacy!
It's simply a cop out way of saying the past is better, any modern boxer who challenges the status quo of the old timers being the greatest of all time feel Haz's wrath.
Hammersmith harrier- Posts : 12060
Join date : 2013-09-26
Re: Wards Legacy!
Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's simply a cop out way of saying the past is better, any modern boxer who challenges the status quo of the old timers being the greatest of all time feel Haz's wrath.
Isn't he a writer? Very strange view to ignore todays boxing.
AdamT- Posts : 6651
Join date : 2014-03-27
Re: Wards Legacy!
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I can see a pig jumping over the moon in my head but it's never going to happen.
I dread to think what goes on in your mind
Kovalev unpredictably quick it could happen and it wouldn't even need to be his best shot Roy's lack of world class whiskers..
Herman Jaeger- Posts : 3532
Join date : 2011-11-10
Re: Wards Legacy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrJZoCssbpI
I challenge anybody to find me a clip of a faster boxer around his weight. Look at the upper body movement. Look at the fast combos. He wasn't textbook, but he was slick. Great, great fighter!
Ward and Kovalev? You're having a laugh.
Enjoy the video.
I challenge anybody to find me a clip of a faster boxer around his weight. Look at the upper body movement. Look at the fast combos. He wasn't textbook, but he was slick. Great, great fighter!
Ward and Kovalev? You're having a laugh.
Enjoy the video.
Last edited by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : .)
AdamT- Posts : 6651
Join date : 2014-03-27
Re: Wards Legacy!
AdamT wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrJZoCssbpI
I challenge anybody to find me a clip of a faster boxer around his weight. Look at the upper body movement. Look at the fast combos. He wasn't textbook, but he was slick. Great, great fighter!
Ward and Kovalev? You're having a laugh.
Enjoy the video.
He was just ridiculous his athletic gifts were not fair
He could hit you with a punch before you knew and then when you realised he would hit you with another one
Like watching someone on Dragonball Z
That Montel Griffin KO is one of my favourites of all time
BoxingFan88- Posts : 3759
Join date : 2011-02-20
Re: Wards Legacy!
Dragon ball z. Awh f..k man, now you're taking me back!
Yeah that was a ridiculous knock out. He always wanted to make a show of Griffin after the DQ loss.
Yeah that was a ridiculous knock out. He always wanted to make a show of Griffin after the DQ loss.
AdamT- Posts : 6651
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Re: Wards Legacy!
That uppercut would have decked a horse, it was a monstrous punch
BoxingFan88- Posts : 3759
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Re: Wards Legacy!
Herman Jaeger wrote:Hammersmith harrier wrote:I can see a pig jumping over the moon in my head but it's never going to happen.
I dread to think what goes on in your mind
Kovalev unpredictably quick it could happen and it wouldn't even need to be his best shot Roy's lack of world class whiskers..
Roy was only chinny when he came back down from Heavyweight
Did he even go down prior to that? Was he ever wobbled?
BoxingFan88- Posts : 3759
Join date : 2011-02-20
Re: Wards Legacy!
BoxingFan88 wrote:Herman Jaeger wrote:Hammersmith harrier wrote:I can see a pig jumping over the moon in my head but it's never going to happen.
I dread to think what goes on in your mind
Kovalev unpredictably quick it could happen and it wouldn't even need to be his best shot Roy's lack of world class whiskers..
Roy was only chinny when he came back down from Heavyweight
Did he even go down prior to that? Was he ever wobbled?
Was he ever hit!
AdamT- Posts : 6651
Join date : 2014-03-27
Re: Wards Legacy!
AdamT wrote:BoxingFan88 wrote:Herman Jaeger wrote:Hammersmith harrier wrote:I can see a pig jumping over the moon in my head but it's never going to happen.
I dread to think what goes on in your mind
Kovalev unpredictably quick it could happen and it wouldn't even need to be his best shot Roy's lack of world class whiskers..
Roy was only chinny when he came back down from Heavyweight
Did he even go down prior to that? Was he ever wobbled?
Was he ever hit!
Haha Exactly
The Roy Jones after the Heavyweight era I would pick Kovalev to beat
The one before that, no chance
BoxingFan88- Posts : 3759
Join date : 2011-02-20
Re: Wards Legacy!
BoxingFan88 wrote:AdamT wrote:BoxingFan88 wrote:Herman Jaeger wrote:Hammersmith harrier wrote:I can see a pig jumping over the moon in my head but it's never going to happen.
I dread to think what goes on in your mind
Kovalev unpredictably quick it could happen and it wouldn't even need to be his best shot Roy's lack of world class whiskers..
Roy was only chinny when he came back down from Heavyweight
Did he even go down prior to that? Was he ever wobbled?
Was he ever hit!
Haha Exactly
The Roy Jones after the Heavyweight era I would pick Kovalev to beat
The one before that, no chance
It always makes me sad when I see Calzaghe v Jones. Jones still had good speed, but he was so far gone then. Joe was very good, but he wasn't as fast as peak Roy and far too open. Roy would of battered him.
AdamT- Posts : 6651
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Re: Wards Legacy!
He'd just made Trinidad look ordinary..
Herman Jaeger- Posts : 3532
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Re: Wards Legacy!
Herman Jaeger wrote:He'd just made Trinidad look ordinary..
Trinidad was ordinary at this stage!
AdamT- Posts : 6651
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Re: Wards Legacy!
True, Roy did love lesser oppo to show off his wares..
Shunned the rematch with Hoppo for years..
Wonder why...
Shunned the rematch with Hoppo for years..
Wonder why...
Herman Jaeger- Posts : 3532
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Re: Wards Legacy!
Herman Jaeger wrote:Bernard was prepared to move up..
I can't really remember if I'm honest. I think Jones would of beat him before his move to heavyweight. Hopkins is class, but he just wasn't fast enough.
AdamT- Posts : 6651
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Re: Wards Legacy!
Bernard had no problem with moving up..
Herman Jaeger- Posts : 3532
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Re: Wards Legacy!
But yeah maybe Hoppy's feet always too slow for a prime Jones
Kovalev on the other hand has terrific footwork if he knew how to cut off a ring better he'd be virtually unbeatable at 75
Fortunately that's something that can be taught so here's hoping he improves that one part of his game
Kovalev on the other hand has terrific footwork if he knew how to cut off a ring better he'd be virtually unbeatable at 75
Fortunately that's something that can be taught so here's hoping he improves that one part of his game
Herman Jaeger- Posts : 3532
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Re: Wards Legacy!
You're entitled to your opinion Herman and I respect it, but the fighters I saw the other night does not beat a late 90's Roy Jones.
AdamT- Posts : 6651
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Re: Wards Legacy!
Fair enough Adam I'm not really qualified to talk on Jones anyway never saw his career live
Herman Jaeger- Posts : 3532
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Re: Wards Legacy!
I respect you opinion Adam you know that
Herman Jaeger- Posts : 3532
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Re: Wards Legacy!
Difficult one for me. As I said on another thread, I don't read too much into undefeated records, unless the fighter has fought successfully in international bouts, over several years.
So, when assessing Ward's career (rather than legacy at this stage), I find that a major hurdle to get over. As we saw just last weekend, he fought on home soil - with all US Judges and Referee - against a foreigner, and only just fell over the finish line. Pardon the pun....
I seriously wonder how he would've gotten on, had he have flown 8000 miles to Russia and fought in the presence of non - US officials?... That aside, I've always been impressed by Ward's physical conditioning and work-rate. Though I've never liked his habit of lunging in at waist-level and coming up forcefully with his head - bound to cause damage to an opponents face/head when you do it throughout the course of 12 rounds... Kovalev was the only one who was able to nullify that to an extent, but even he still took a few headbutts to the face..
So, when assessing Ward's career (rather than legacy at this stage), I find that a major hurdle to get over. As we saw just last weekend, he fought on home soil - with all US Judges and Referee - against a foreigner, and only just fell over the finish line. Pardon the pun....
I seriously wonder how he would've gotten on, had he have flown 8000 miles to Russia and fought in the presence of non - US officials?... That aside, I've always been impressed by Ward's physical conditioning and work-rate. Though I've never liked his habit of lunging in at waist-level and coming up forcefully with his head - bound to cause damage to an opponents face/head when you do it throughout the course of 12 rounds... Kovalev was the only one who was able to nullify that to an extent, but even he still took a few headbutts to the face..
Marlonz- Posts : 151
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Re: Wards Legacy!
Herman Jaeger wrote:I respect you opinion Adam you know that
Least there is one
AdamT- Posts : 6651
Join date : 2014-03-27
Re: Wards Legacy!
Jones did not shun a hopkins rematch. Hopkins wanted a 50/50 split and the rematch at a catchweight. See you later bernard. I think kovalev would be a dangerous opponent for jones. Jones was fragile, albeit wonderfully talented.
catchweight- Posts : 4339
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