Most overrated current international player.

First topic message reminder :

Just a bit of fun. Who do people think is the most overrated player currently. For me it's Will Skelton. Just don't see what he adds to the aussie team.

It was a serious question. Take it it was a joke then.

George North

Not sure I have seen him have a good game for Wales for years - he may be great at Club level, but the lop ons people get about him...

Tim McVisser

Not sure I have seen him have a good game for Scotland for years - he may be great at Club level, but the lop ons people get about him..

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Stuart Barnes

And before you say he was never rated in the first place - he was the best player in the world, in his mind.

Still, he's made a very knowledgeable and likeable pundit.

Knowledgeable until it comes to getting the right name

SCW was rated until 2005 then he became a bit of a laughing stock (7.5, this is serious but also a wind up, you ok with that?)

Sorry if I do take things on a discussion forum as read, but you haven't wound me up, I just think a few things made you look like you didn't know what you were talking about. Fine by me but I will tend to challenge those points.

Riskysports wrote:George North

Not sure I have seen him have a good game for Wales for years - he may be great at Club level, but the lop ons people get about him...

Tim McVisser

Not sure I have seen him have a good game for Scotland for years - he may be great at Club level, but the lop ons people get about him..

With a few exceptions, George North has always seemed to have better games for Wales than for Saints. And now, not so much for Wales either.

LondonTiger wrote:Beauden Barrett - is he really the best player in the world?
Juan-Martin Hernandez - has he ever been as good as pundits claim?
Maro Itoje - not the second messiah just yet.
CJ Stander - see Itoje
Jonny Gray - see Itoje/Stander
Sergio Parisse - watch the commentators fawn over him come 6Ns
Lee Halfpenny - has been living off his goalkicking and 40 magical minutes for the Lions for too long
Wesley Fofana - still seems to be more potential than actual realised talent


To be over-rated, you have to at least be rated, which generally means that the contenders for such a title will usually be pretty good players, just not quite as good as the hype.



Note - I was struggling to find a single Saffer who is currently rated.

Agreed on Hernandez, just because he has a pretty style. Has been living off his 3 drop goal's versus Ireland nearly 10 years ago.

LondonTiger wrote:Beauden Barrett - is he really the best player in the world?

Well, it's hard to say when you play with undoubtedly the best side in the world.  Playing in a side such as that affords you the confidence to play above yourself and try things out that other players in lesser sides might hold back on.  If Barrett starts a crazily skilled move that leads to a special try then of course in the mind of the media and fans, he shares in the glow off that play but all he possibly did was to ignite it.

On the other hand - how do we judge any player, as they'll all be somehow aided or impeded by the class of players around them?

ebop wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Mike Brown.

At least Mike Brown rates himself even if no one else does

And nobody is going to argue with him about it...

A few years back he was one of the best around. Nowadays he's like AWJ for Wales. We love him and he brings a lot to England, but he's not the best in Europe any more.

Halfpenny - had 2 clutch kicks in his life. Both in his own half and both within 10m of centre field. Missed both (1 to send Wales in 2011 RWC final, the other to win the 2nd lions test). Biggar is a better kicker, Williams is a better FB.
Richie Gray - people can't get over his size.
Eben Etzebeth - same reasons as Gray. First thing everyone talks about is his guns. Bakkies didn't have as big guns but I know who I'd back in a brawl.

Any kiwi from 12 onwards, perhaps even 9 onwards. They get so much front foot ball that play is undoubtedly easier for them. I'd like to see their scrumhalves play with forwards who get dominated by the opposition for instance.

fa0019 wrote:Halfpenny - had 2 clutch kicks in his life. Both in his own half and both within 10m of centre field. Missed both (1 to send Wales in 2011 RWC final, the other to win the 2nd lions test). Biggar is a better kicker, Williams is a better FB.
Richie Gray - people can't get over his size.
Eben Etzebeth - same reasons as Gray. First thing everyone talks about is his guns. Bakkies didn't have as big guns but I know who I'd back in a brawl.

Any kiwi from 12 onwards, perhaps even 9 onwards. They get so much front foot ball that play is undoubtedly easier for them. I'd like to see their scrumhalves play with forwards who get dominated by the opposition for instance.

Agree completely. Re Ritchie, his brother is in a different league with regards to effectiveness on the pitch!

fa0019 wrote:Halfpenny - had 2 clutch kicks in his life. Both in his own half and both within 10m of centre field. Missed both (1 to send Wales in 2011 RWC final, the other to win the 2nd lions test). Biggar is a better kicker, Williams is a better FB.
Richie Gray - people can't get over his size.
Eben Etzebeth - same reasons as Gray. First thing everyone talks about is his guns. Bakkies didn't have as big guns but I know who I'd back in a brawl.

Any kiwi from 12 onwards, perhaps even 9 onwards. They get so much front foot ball that play is undoubtedly easier for them. I'd like to see their scrumhalves play with forwards who get dominated by the opposition for instance.

I think this is interesting, because my pick for this thread is Aaron Smith. I've never quite understood what people see in him that is that great. And in various games where NZ forwards have been put under pressure he's been gash (see England 2012, and the two recent games against Ireland).

GeordieFalcon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Halfpenny - had 2 clutch kicks in his life. Both in his own half and both within 10m of centre field. Missed both (1 to send Wales in 2011 RWC final, the other to win the 2nd lions test). Biggar is a better kicker, Williams is a better FB.
Richie Gray - people can't get over his size.
Eben Etzebeth - same reasons as Gray. First thing everyone talks about is his guns. Bakkies didn't have as big guns but I know who I'd back in a brawl.

Any kiwi from 12 onwards, perhaps even 9 onwards. They get so much front foot ball that play is undoubtedly easier for them. I'd like to see their scrumhalves play with forwards who get dominated by the opposition for instance.

Agree completely. Re Ritchie, his brother is in a different league with regards to effectiveness on the pitch!

Jonny is a superb player... I recall the talk about him when he arrived, "oh this is is slightly smaller brother and he might too become a test player like his brother". Who knew he would blitz past him.

No mistake when Eben burst on the scene people were awe struck. He carried well, tackled like a demon but his ego is a little too apparent. Stops him from excelling. He does too much work on his guns. His lower half isn't as developed so he has a tendency to be upended when carrying. I mean the guy had to have specially made dumbells to work out as the 75kg ones at his club WP weren't big enough. Obviously his club and the boks don't have a conditioning coach of any high calibre.

Whenever physical "freaks" are identified in the game people (including myself sometime) can't stop scenario playing with such players. "Look how strong, fast, quick off the mark player x is". I recall when Dean Richards would tip the scales at about 20st and probably had a bleep test score of about 10. Was still the best of his era in the NH.

Im going to be controversial here and say, I think the day of Monster locks is ending!

With the exception of the Kiwi duo, the majority of the top echelon locks are 6'5 - 6'6.

Bakkies - 6'6
Thorn - 6'6
Itoje 6'5
Gray 6'6
Henderson 6'6
Launchbury 6'6

It seems those that are prospering are more like your larger back row players...mobile.

It's all about mobility, and power...and crazy work rates!

fa0019 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Halfpenny - had 2 clutch kicks in his life. Both in his own half and both within 10m of centre field. Missed both (1 to send Wales in 2011 RWC final, the other to win the 2nd lions test). Biggar is a better kicker, Williams is a better FB.
Richie Gray - people can't get over his size.
Eben Etzebeth - same reasons as Gray. First thing everyone talks about is his guns. Bakkies didn't have as big guns but I know who I'd back in a brawl.

Any kiwi from 12 onwards, perhaps even 9 onwards. They get so much front foot ball that play is undoubtedly easier for them. I'd like to see their scrumhalves play with forwards who get dominated by the opposition for instance.

Agree completely. Re Ritchie, his brother is in a different league with regards to effectiveness on the pitch!

Jonny is a superb player... I recall the talk about him when he arrived, "oh this is is slightly smaller brother and he might too become a test player like his brother". Who knew he would blitz past him.

In defence of Richie, I think he is struggling to shrug off the show pony tag which (rightly or wrongly) he seemed to have picked up in his early years. Since the last Lions tour and his move to France I think he has become a much more rounded player and would definitely class him as a top international class lock. His physicality in particular has come on significantly since moving to France. His performance against Australia in the first game of the AIs was outstanding and he was definitely the equal of his brother. he is a regular starter for Toulouse - still renowned for being one of the top packs in Europe.

Jonny is usually top of the tackle charts but often Richie is not far behind. At 6ft 10 he obviously is a great front jumper option.

I don't think he will make the plan next summer but he certainly wouldn't disgrace himself if he did.

lostinwales wrote:

ebop wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Mike Brown.

At least Mike Brown rates himself even if no one else does

And nobody is going to argue with him about it...

A few years back he was one of the best around. Nowadays he's like AWJ for Wales. We love him and he brings a lot to England, but he's not the best in Europe any more.

Please, Brown is like a little terrier yapping safely behind his gate.

Oi will f**k you over, son! I will be 'avin' some of you! When I stop moving backward at a rate of knots, you are f**king history, my son! History!

Oh what a classic moment

If there is a video you can definitely see the point where he realises he has made a mistake.

LondonTiger wrote:Beauden Barrett - is he really the best player in the world?

Not against Ireland in Chicago.

Brown doesn't back down even when they're bigger. Plus Warburton is made of glass.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im going to be controversial here and say, I think the day of Monster locks is ending!

With the exception of the Kiwi duo, the majority of the top echelon locks are 6'5 - 6'6.

Bakkies - 6'6
Thorn - 6'6
Itoje 6'5
Gray 6'6
Henderson 6'6
Launchbury 6'6

It seems those that are prospering are more like your larger back row players...mobile.

It's all about mobility, and power...and crazy work rates!

or

Eben 6'8
Du Toit 6'7
Lawes 6'7
De Jager 6'9
Charteris 6'11
Toner 6'11
Retallick 6'9
Whitelock 6'8
Skelton 6'8

For me I think its a balance. Lock combos go best together when you have a good cop bad cop pairing. One enforcer, one graceful athlete.

Bakkies & Victor
Brooke & Jones
Weise & Andrews
Jonno & Dooley

No 7&1/2 wrote:Brown doesn't back down even when they're bigger. Plus Warburton is made of glass.

He certainly looks like hes backing down to me, I know who my money would be on anyway.

fa0019 wrote:

or

Eben 6'8 - Overated as mentioned above
Du Toit 6'7 - Average
Lawes 6'7 - Not hit the heights expected
De Jager 6'9 - Average
Charteris 6'11 - Average
Toner 6'11 - Decent lineout operator...not much else
Retallick 6'9 - An exception
Whitelock 6'8 - An Exception
Skelton 6'8 Woeful big lump of uselessness

For me I think its a balance. Lock combos go best together when you have a good cop bad cop pairing. One enforcer, one graceful athlete.

Bakkies & Victor
Brooke & Jones
Weise & Andrews
Jonno & Dooley

SA are getting bigger and bigger...yet their performances are going backwards....coincidence??

Definitely Brown, we agree.

De Jager was last year one of the players of the tournament and certainly SA's best player, form dips it happens but he's quality. Skelton I actually really rate. He still has a bit of puppy fat on him but he's hands are the best I've seen in a forward. AUS scrum never goes back when he's playing. Just has to work on fitness a bit.

I also really rate Toner and Charteris. Charteris looks like a bean pole but he and Toner probably are toe to toe as the best maulers in the game. Always see Wales play better when Charteris plays. I rate him over Jones for instance... and Toner I mean, if he continues like this why not for the Lions tour.

Charteris im probably being harsh on as I do think he can be an excellent player on his day.

Skelton I just cant see. Just don't rate him at all.


It'll be interesting to see how the sizes of the locks go over the next few years.

The Kanye of rugby

GeordieFalcon wrote:Charteris im probably being harsh on as I do think he can be an excellent player on his day.

Skelton I just cant see. Just don't rate him at all.


It'll be interesting to see how the sizes of the locks go over the next few years.

seriously dude, have a look at his link play and 1st receiver work. He's very talented on the ball. People think he's this oversized lump who is a bit fat. Seriously underestimate him. His play is like a modern day Richards.... albeit not that much fitter!

Problem for 120kg+ guys is that you ain't going to throw them up in the lineout so your disguise needs to be better. Why Maro, Croft, Smith etc have been so good as alternates. Light, agile and needs one lifter, never loses ball. Will has tipped scales at 140kgs at times.

Skelton is never lifted is he?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Skelton is never lifted is he?

Probably take the entire pack.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Brown doesn't back down even when they're bigger. Plus Warburton is made of glass.

He certainly backed down from Warburton. You can actually see the very point he realised his hard man act has been exposed. One of the funniest things I've seen in a game

Munchkin wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Brown doesn't back down even when they're bigger. Plus Warburton is made of glass.

He certainly backed down from Warburton. You can actually see the very point he realised his hard man act has been exposed. One of the funniest things I've seen in a game

It was never so much about him. I stopped looking at him when I started looking at how calmly Warburton asserted the dominance. It wasn't overly menacing just a few steps forward. It was like an Attenborough Serengeti wildlife documentary

Its not the size of the dog in the fight... a little bit of needle is sometimes a good thing.

Brian Moore was another little maniac, you see him now and think how did this little guy become one of the games most ferocious players... in one of its toughest eras.

I remember when McGeechan once tried to compare Owen Farrell to Moore in that respect. One too many bangs to the head me thinks.

fa0019 wrote:Its not the size of the dog in the fight... a little bit of needle is sometimes a good thing.

Brian Moore was another little maniac, you see him now and think how did this little guy become one of the games most ferocious players... in one of its toughest eras.

I remember when McGeechan once tried to compare Owen Farrell to Moore in that respect. One too many bangs to the head me thinks.

Oh for sure, it's not all about size - and aggression has its place. But on that occasion neither aggression nor relatively diminutive size worked. You gotta know when to pick your fights. And it gets tiresome very quickly when the temper never seems to have an off switch.

Munchkin wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Brown doesn't back down even when they're bigger. Plus Warburton is made of glass.

He certainly backed down from Warburton. You can actually see the very point he realised his hard man act has been exposed. One of the funniest things I've seen in a game

He has needle but in reality I don't think that's it.

I recall when a coach of mine as a colt beasted the lot of us in training after game day because one of our players got in a scrap and few of us intervened.

"I don't care if he's your best mate or your worst enemy, if he's be the instigator or was doing foul play, you look after each other out there... and next time I ain't going to go so easy on you" Was a long time ago but that was the gist of it as a few of us were throwing up from the exertion. Lions 74... JPR on the call ran 40 metres to smack a bokke lock.

When you see a wee soft as s**** back go in taking on a lock full knowing he's going to get a slap you know you have team spirit. Not saying Brown is like that but I'd sometimes prefer more players to be like that.

SecretFly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Its not the size of the dog in the fight... a little bit of needle is sometimes a good thing.

Brian Moore was another little maniac, you see him now and think how did this little guy become one of the games most ferocious players... in one of its toughest eras.

I remember when McGeechan once tried to compare Owen Farrell to Moore in that respect. One too many bangs to the head me thinks.

Oh for sure, it's not all about size - and aggression has its place.  But on that occasion neither aggression nor relatively diminutive size worked.  You gotta know when to pick your fights.  And it gets tiresome very quickly when the temper never seems to have an off switch.

I don't mind aggression of Brown to be fair. Someone like Mike Phillips or Danny Care.... generally any scrumhalf who has been born with a chip on both shoulders (perfectly balanced) those are the worst.

fa0019 wrote:

I don't mind aggression of Brown to be fair. Someone like Mike Phillips or Danny Care.... generally any scrumhalf who has been born with a chip on both shoulders (perfectly balanced) those are the worst.

Mike I could handle. Those little chippy scrumhalves I adore. Stringer was a wonderful bundle of wound up energy. I prefer those 9s to the larger, more robust yawny types (not looking at you Murray )
Anyway, Brown would be fine. But he simply overdoes the angry-frothing-man bit. He can be funny but also tiresome.

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Brown doesn't back down even when they're bigger. Plus Warburton is made of glass.

He certainly backed down from Warburton. You can actually see the very point he realised his hard man act has been exposed. One of the funniest things I've seen in a game

It was never so much about him.  I stopped looking at him when I started looking at how calmly Warburton asserted the dominance.  It wasn't overly menacing just a few steps forward.  It was like an Attenborough Serengeti wildlife documentary

I think that's what made all the more funny. Warbs wasn't the one grabbing or acting the drama queen. I think the lack of reaction from Warbs contrasted wonderfully with Browns aggression turned to panic. It was all on him

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Brown doesn't back down even when they're bigger. Plus Warburton is made of glass.

He certainly backed down from Warburton. You can actually see the very point he realised his hard man act has been exposed. One of the funniest things I've seen in a game

It was never so much about him.  I stopped looking at him when I started looking at how calmly Warburton asserted the dominance.  It wasn't overly menacing just a few steps forward.  It was like an Attenborough Serengeti wildlife documentary

I think that's what made all the more funny. Warbs wasn't the one grabbing or acting the drama queen. I think the lack of reaction from Warbs contrasted wonderfully with Browns aggression turned to panic. It was all on him

Probably did his team disservice.... I don't want to start a "was it yellow wasn't it" but I certainly think the bundle clouded the issue and made it less likely the card would be shown.

fa0019 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Brown doesn't back down even when they're bigger. Plus Warburton is made of glass.

He certainly backed down from Warburton. You can actually see the very point he realised his hard man act has been exposed. One of the funniest things I've seen in a game

He has needle but in reality I don't think that's it.

I recall when a coach of mine as a colt beasted the lot of us in training after game day because one of our players got in a scrap and few of us intervened.

"I don't care if he's your best mate or your worst enemy, if he's be the instigator or was doing foul play, you look after each other out there... and next time I ain't going to go so easy on you" Was a long time ago but that was the gist of it as a few of us were throwing up from the exertion. Lions 74... JPR on the call ran 40 metres to smack a bokke lock.

When you see a wee soft as s**** back go in taking on a lock full knowing he's going to get a slap you know you have team spirit. Not saying Brown is like that but I'd sometimes prefer more players to be like that.

I think that's true, but they have to follow through, or get rescued by their team mates to save face, otherwise it backfires and dampens the spirit of the team. Brown's team mates didn't back him up, and Brown didn't follow through. He crumpled.

SecretFly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

I don't mind aggression of Brown to be fair. Someone like Mike Phillips or Danny Care.... generally any scrumhalf who has been born with a chip on both shoulders (perfectly balanced) those are the worst.

Mike I could handle.  Those little chippy scrumhalves I adore.  Stringer was a wonderful bundle of wound up energy.  I prefer those 9s to the larger, more robust yawny types (not looking at you Murray )
Anyway, Brown would be fine.  But he simply overdoes the angry-frothing-man bit.  He can be funny but also tiresome.    

best tap tackle in the game... little s.hite!

England: Mike Brown, Owen farrell (both hot heads)
Ireland: Peter O'Mahoney (all huff and puff)
Wales: Warburton (jury is still out)
France: Picamoles (not a great captain IMO)
SA: Spies (gone now but was for a long time the most over rated player in the world)
NZ: Barrett (great player but not a great out half) Coles (not sure what all the fuss is about)
Aus: Hooper (Is he a winger, a centre, a back row? Jack of all trades master of none)

Manager: Eddie Jones (the motor mouth of world rugby will be found out soon enough)

Was it the moment Brown didn't back down to Warburton, didn't back down vs 4 Welsh players or continued to grapple with Jenkins that you're talking about? He was never going to throw a punch but he backs up his team mates every time.

Sean O'Brien is a good example of an overrated player. Decent player, but a luxury and a show pony. Awful squeaky voice and an annoying whinging individual too.

Irish fans do tend to big up their players quite a bit in general.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Was it the moment Brown didn't back down to Warburton, didn't back down vs 4 Welsh players or continued to grapple with Jenkins that you're talking about? He was never going to throw a punch but he backs up his team mates every time.

Nope. It was the time he challenged Warburton to a screaming match. He was the aggressor, 7&1/2 - and he was walked backward into a climb-down by a very calm but determined Warburton. In truth, that was the day I gained a lot of respect for Warburton - I'd previously just regarded him as the 'enemy' But that day, I admired his noble authority.

Cyril wrote:Sean O'Brien is a good example of an overrated player. Decent player, but a luxury and a show pony. Awful squeaky voice and an annoying whinging individual too.

Irish fans do tend to big up their players quite a bit in general.

??

Is it coz we is talking about Brown?

For the record, you'll see a good many of us think he runs too hot (just like Brown). We all got them; don't worry, Cyril.

Cyril wrote:Sean O'Brien is a good example of an overrated player. Decent player, but a luxury and a show pony. Awful squeaky voice and an annoying whinging individual too.

Irish fans do tend to big up their players quite a bit in general.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu9SZPlxjVk

Sean O'Brien swatting away English players. You wish he was English.

He wasn't reacting to what Warburton was doing and saying then after a flare up not initially involving Brown? Not sure you're right personally and yes he was walked backwards by 4 Welsh players. Yes Warburton then tried to wind him up more but that's the game these days.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:Sean O'Brien is a good example of an overrated player. Decent player, but a luxury and a show pony. Awful squeaky voice and an annoying whinging individual too.

Irish fans do tend to big up their players quite a bit in general.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu9SZPlxjVk

Sean O'Brien swatting away English players. You wish he was English.

Even the Irish fans in the comments think O'Brien is being a d*ck there!

Oh God, a few red and purple cards for O'Brien in that melee! Someone in white must has turned on his central heating that day.