Dylan Hartley rehabilitation setback

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 09 Dec 2016, 10:06 pm

Red-carded tonight for a swinging arm tackle against Leinster.

Saints were behind on the scoreboard but on the attack when Hartley came off the bench. Two scrum penalties later, Leinster were on the Saints goal line and duly scored. a try. Not long afterwards, Hartley was sent off, and Saints promptly crumbled. Not really an effective contribution.

It's the sort of thing Hartley has done before but seemed to have left behind under Jones. Poetically, both Lancaster and Jones were at the ground to bear witness.

This red happened in a club match but it has international implications. Jones might stand by his man, or he might take it as a cue to start looking elsewhere for captaincy options. The 6N match against Ireland could be a crucial encounter, and the referee will be Jerome Garces, who just sent Hartley off the field.

If Hartley doesn't lead England during the 6N, then his Lions chances will take a hit.

by Guest Fri 09 Dec 2016, 10:48 pm

I'm going to go out on a limb here and back Hartley in this incident. When you watch it in real time, and actually in slow motion too, for me he lines O'Brien up for a strong hit around the shoulder/chest area, arm wrapped around as its meant to be, and then O'Brien is suddenly taken down quite quickly and so Hartley's once perfectly good tackle turns into a swinging arm to the head due to O'Brien's suddenly different body position vertically. Very unfortunate I think, and looks like swinging arm if you just see the hit to the head, but I think in the slow mo you can see Hartley initiatives the 'hit' when O'Brien is still on his feet and as I say the sudden the change in position of O'Brien's body has done for him.

by TJ Fri 09 Dec 2016, 11:12 pm

Not intentional no. Reckless however. Reading around the IRB site i think 4 weeks +
Striking to head is a 4 week ban as a starting point. He won't get a reduction for previous good behaviour but neither will he get a top end sanction for doing it deliberately. 4 weeks plus anything he gets for being a repeat offender

by GunsGermsV2 Fri 09 Dec 2016, 11:34 pm

Griff wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb here and back Hartley in this incident. When you watch it in real time, and actually in slow motion too, for me he lines O'Brien up for a strong hit around the shoulder/chest area, arm wrapped around as its meant to be, and then O'Brien is suddenly taken down quite quickly and so Hartley's once perfectly good tackle turns into a swinging arm to the head due to O'Brien's suddenly different body position vertically. Very unfortunate I think, and looks like swinging arm if you just see the hit to the head, but I think in the slow mo you can see Hartley initiatives the 'hit' when O'Brien is still on his feet and as I say the sudden the change in position of O'Brien's body has done for him.

Even Jim Mallinder thought he will get a hefty ban. Eddie Jones by his face in his hands reaction looked like he though Hartley messed up. I think Hartley deserved a red card for stupidity and a second one for dangerous play. What a toolshed
Hope he doesnt get picked for the Lions.

by GunsGermsV2 Fri 09 Dec 2016, 11:39 pm

Griff wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb here and back Hartley in this incident. When you watch it in real time, and actually in slow motion too, for me he lines O'Brien up for a strong hit around the shoulder/chest area, arm wrapped around as its meant to be, and then O'Brien is suddenly taken down quite quickly and so Hartley's once perfectly good tackle turns into a swinging arm to the head due to O'Brien's suddenly different body position vertically. Very unfortunate I think, and looks like swinging arm if you just see the hit to the head, but I think in the slow mo you can see Hartley initiatives the 'hit' when O'Brien is still on his feet and as I say the sudden the change in position of O'Brien's body has done for him.

Even Jim Mallinder thought he will get a hefty ban and said he was disappointed with Hartley. Eddie Jones by his face in his hands reaction looked like he though Hartley messed up. I think Hartley deserved a red card for stupidity and a second one for dangerous play.

by TJ Fri 09 Dec 2016, 11:54 pm

He has certainly done his chances a lot of harm and I had him down as lions captain. I look pretty silly now!

by **profitius** Sat 10 Dec 2016, 12:31 am

Griff wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb here and back Hartley in this incident. When you watch it in real time, and actually in slow motion too, for me he lines O'Brien up for a strong hit around the shoulder/chest area, arm wrapped around as its meant to be, and then O'Brien is suddenly taken down quite quickly and so Hartley's once perfectly good tackle turns into a swinging arm to the head due to O'Brien's suddenly different body position vertically. Very unfortunate I think, and looks like swinging arm if you just see the hit to the head, but I think in the slow mo you can see Hartley initiatives the 'hit' when O'Brien is still on his feet and as I say the sudden the change in position of O'Brien's body has done for him.

Smeg em. He went in with a mad swinging arm intending to hurt SOB. It was a reckless and out of control and there should be no excuses made for it.

I had him down in my lions team so I've nothing personal against him but like a speeding driver who wrecklessly knocks someone down, he doesn't have any excuses.

by Poorfour Sat 10 Dec 2016, 1:33 am

Irish fans may be forgiven for not knowing this but thus year there is a much stricter policy on contact with the head. Tacklers are expected to make allowances for a player coming in lower than expected and will pay the price if they get it wrong. Unless they are All Blacks, obviously.

by Gwlad Sat 10 Dec 2016, 1:40 am

Just like Calum Clark, can't understand how these players make it to the top level when the thug aspect of their character is so near the surface.

I had watched him as England capt believing he had the potential to lead the lions but obviously he hasn't changed a bit.

Clear red, hefty ban for a bad and very intentional swinging arm from a player with form.
I expect he will lose not only the potential to lead the Lions but quite likely the England captaincy.

by aucklandlaurie Sat 10 Dec 2016, 2:57 am

Poorfour wrote:Irish fans may be forgiven for not knowing this but thus year there is a much stricter policy on contact with the head. Tacklers are expected to make allowances for a player coming in lower than expected and will pay the price if they get it wrong. Unless they are All Blacks, obviously.

Whats that meant to mean?

by GunsGermsV2 Sat 10 Dec 2016, 7:38 am

Cant understand why people are making excuses for him. Should have been given two reds one for being stupid one for dirty play.

by Poorfour Sat 10 Dec 2016, 7:44 am

In the Dublin game, several All Blacks avoided cards, citing and bans for things that I have seen lesser players banned for this year. I'm not saying that there was anything malicious in their play, and last year the sanctions awarded would have been correct.

But this year's interpretation is different and supposed to be much stricter, and that did not appear to have been applied to the All Black players in the same way it has to others.

The Cane tackle on Henshaw is a case in point. Nothing wrong with it last year - an accident. This year, players are expected to make allowances for the possibility that someone might stumble or fall into their path, and failure to do so leading to contact with the head should result in a ban.

For instance, there is a Quins player serving a 5 week ban because he came in for a chest high tackle and the player ducked into his path. Cane's case is not dissimilar in that he came in at a height where contact with the head was likely if Henshaw was not fully upright. Yet sanction came there none.

These are harsh changes but I think necessary. However, at the moment they do not appear to be being applied consistently.

by Guest Sat 10 Dec 2016, 7:47 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Irish fans may be forgiven for not knowing this but thus year there is a much stricter policy on contact with the head. Tacklers are expected to make allowances for a player coming in lower than expected and will pay the price if they get it wrong. Unless they are All Blacks, obviously.

Whats that meant to mean?

They call it a deflection I think

Hartley is an English recidivist thug. If he'd remained a kiwi he'd have had this violent streak taught out of him by now or dropped into oblivion. Guess this is one of the differences between English and New Zealand rugby. We don't tolerate repeat violent offenders on the field like the English do.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 10 Dec 2016, 7:50 am

ebop wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Irish fans may be forgiven for not knowing this but thus year there is a much stricter policy on contact with the head. Tacklers are expected to make allowances for a player coming in lower than expected and will pay the price if they get it wrong. Unless they are All Blacks, obviously.

Whats that meant to mean?
They call it a deflection I think

Hartley is an English recidivist thug. If he'd remained a kiwi he'd have had this violent streak taught out of him by now or dropped into oblivion. Guess this is one of the differences between English and New Zealand rugby. We don't tolerate repeat violent offenders on the field like the English do.

Hmmm

No defence for Hartley who may have lost his international career with that thuggish moment of idiocy, but I think the rest of your post is on fairly debatable ground, fairly generalistic at the least

by ChequeredJersey Sat 10 Dec 2016, 7:54 am

Apparently the last All Black to be red carded on the field (knowing that citings after the event are not really any compensation for the side wronged against) was 1967 despite several well documented contenders! Cane is an interesting one as I don't think he deserved a red, but not deeming it to have been a red in retrospect is clearly inconsistent with the current approach to head injury incidents and THAT is what annoyed many of us

by GunsGermsV2 Sat 10 Dec 2016, 8:03 am

Cane not getting cited or banned was bizarre. I think the AB policy to deny everything is influencing citing comissioners. Mallinder by contrast sais straight away Hartley deserved red. You would never hear an AB say that.

by TJ Sat 10 Dec 2016, 9:08 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Cane not getting cited or banned was bizarre. I think the AB policy to deny everything is influencing citing comissioners. Mallinder by contrast sais straight away Hartley deserved red. You would never hear an AB say that.

When McCaw got a yellow last year he did exactly that. Saying he deserved it ad apologised

by GunsGermsV2 Sat 10 Dec 2016, 9:18 am

Only because he was about to retire

by **BigGee** Sat 10 Dec 2016, 9:27 am

TJ wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:Cane not getting cited or banned was bizarre. I think the AB policy to deny everything is influencing citing comissioners. Mallinder by contrast sais straight away Hartley deserved red. You would never hear an AB say that.

When McCaw got a yellow last year he did exactly that. Saying he deserved it ad apologised

Was he apologising for that one, or all the others that he did not get given during the course of his career?

by Guest Sat 10 Dec 2016, 10:01 am

BigGee wrote:
TJ wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:Cane not getting cited or banned was bizarre. I think the AB policy to deny everything is influencing citing comissioners. Mallinder by contrast sais straight away Hartley deserved red. You would never hear an AB say that.

When McCaw got a yellow last year he did exactly that. Saying he deserved it ad apologised

Was he apologising for that one, or all the others that he did not get given during the course of his career?

Who remembers the time Dylan Hartley threw a forearm to a prone McCaw's head in his team's 26-16 loss at Twickers in 2010 and didn't get sanctioned?

Classic stuff from Hartley

by Poorfour Sat 10 Dec 2016, 10:26 am

I her very little sympathy for Hartley. If you go back to this time last year I was arguing that he should not be included in Eddie Jones's squad.

To be fair, he has done well for England this year, but a long ban this time will be hard for him to come back from

by geoff999rugby Sat 10 Dec 2016, 10:37 am

If he gets banned into the run up to the 6n - say 6 weeks plus George will start and he will not get back.
Once George is the main man he will not be shifted

by No 7&1/2 Sat 10 Dec 2016, 11:26 am

Yup just opens up a prime opportunity for George and Taylor to cement themselves.

by Guest Sat 10 Dec 2016, 11:54 am

Robshaw to captain?

by Poorfour Sat 10 Dec 2016, 12:08 pm

ebop wrote:Robshaw to captain?

That would be funny.

by Exiledinborders Sat 10 Dec 2016, 1:42 pm

profitius wrote:

Smeg em. He went in with a mad swinging arm intending to hurt SOB. It was a reckless and out of control and there should be no excuses made for it.

It was either reckless and out of control or it was intended to hurt SOB.

I think the former. SOB ducked into it. Anyway he will get a ban but I suspect not a very long one.

by Hammersmith harrier Sat 10 Dec 2016, 1:47 pm

It was reckless and stupid but I don't think it was intentional, with his previous record though he'll end up with a hefty ban I would imagine; Jones will stick by him as captain though I would have thought.

by Gwlad Sat 10 Dec 2016, 5:24 pm

Anyone who says this wasn't intentional as obviously never tackled anyone. You know when your leading with the arm because it is - in most cases- connected to your brain. Straight arm tackling isn't 'reckless' it is dangerous illegal and the action of a thug not an england captain. Not only was this a supremely cynical tackle but it was from behind….staggering really that such behavior can have been committed by an England capt but i doubt he'll be captain much longer. Clearly all that behaving himself in white has caused him to need to revert to type for his club. Gatland may even drop him from the Lions completely as if he is this weak and gets carded in a test that is a risk he can't afford to take.

by Gwlad Sat 10 Dec 2016, 5:26 pm

ebop wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Irish fans may be forgiven for not knowing this but thus year there is a much stricter policy on contact with the head. Tacklers are expected to make allowances for a player coming in lower than expected and will pay the price if they get it wrong. Unless they are All Blacks, obviously.

Whats that meant to mean?
They call it a deflection I think

Hartley is an English recidivist thug. If he'd remained a kiwi he'd have had this violent streak taught out of him by now or dropped into oblivion. Guess this is one of the differences between English and New Zealand rugby. We don't tolerate repeat violent offenders on the field like the English do.

But you encouraged spear tacklers who caused serious injuries.

by aucklandlaurie Sat 10 Dec 2016, 6:12 pm

Gwlad wrote:
ebop wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Irish fans may be forgiven for not knowing this but thus year there is a much stricter policy on contact with the head. Tacklers are expected to make allowances for a player coming in lower than expected and will pay the price if they get it wrong. Unless they are All Blacks, obviously.

Whats that meant to mean?
They call it a deflection I think

Hartley is an English recidivist thug. If he'd remained a kiwi he'd have had this violent streak taught out of him by now or dropped into oblivion. Guess this is one of the differences between English and New Zealand rugby. We don't tolerate repeat violent offenders on the field like the English do.

But you encouraged spear tacklers who caused serious injuries.

I think you are confusing us with someone else, probably the Australians.

by Gwlad Sat 10 Dec 2016, 6:23 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
ebop wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Irish fans may be forgiven for not knowing this but thus year there is a much stricter policy on contact with the head. Tacklers are expected to make allowances for a player coming in lower than expected and will pay the price if they get it wrong. Unless they are All Blacks, obviously.

Whats that meant to mean?
They call it a deflection I think

Hartley is an English recidivist thug. If he'd remained a kiwi he'd have had this violent streak taught out of him by now or dropped into oblivion. Guess this is one of the differences between English and New Zealand rugby. We don't tolerate repeat violent offenders on the field like the English do.

But you encouraged spear tacklers who caused serious injuries.

Didnt realize umaga and mealamu were aussie. My mistake

I think you are confusing us with someone else, probably the Australians.

by aucklandlaurie Sat 10 Dec 2016, 6:28 pm

Gwlad wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
ebop wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Irish fans may be forgiven for not knowing this but thus year there is a much stricter policy on contact with the head. Tacklers are expected to make allowances for a player coming in lower than expected and will pay the price if they get it wrong. Unless they are All Blacks, obviously.

Whats that meant to mean?
They call it a deflection I think

Hartley is an English recidivist thug. If he'd remained a kiwi he'd have had this violent streak taught out of him by now or dropped into oblivion. Guess this is one of the differences between English and New Zealand rugby. We don't tolerate repeat violent offenders on the field like the English do.

But you encouraged spear tacklers who caused serious injuries.

Didnt realize umaga and mealamu were aussie. My mistake

I think you are confusing us with someone else, probably the Australians.

Bloody dodgey pair that Umaga and Mealamu, they are from the ancient Aboriginal tribe called the Samoans, they were so bad they got kicked out of Australia.

by Gwlad Sat 10 Dec 2016, 6:31 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
ebop wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Irish fans may be forgiven for not knowing this but thus year there is a much stricter policy on contact with the head. Tacklers are expected to make allowances for a player coming in lower than expected and will pay the price if they get it wrong. Unless they are All Blacks, obviously.

Whats that meant to mean?
They call it a deflection I think

Hartley is an English recidivist thug. If he'd remained a kiwi he'd have had this violent streak taught out of him by now or dropped into oblivion. Guess this is one of the differences between English and New Zealand rugby. We don't tolerate repeat violent offenders on the field like the English do.

But you encouraged spear tacklers who caused serious injuries.

Didnt realize umaga and mealamu were aussie. My mistake

I think you are confusing us with someone else, probably the Australians.

Bloody dodgey pair that Umaga and Mealamu, they are from the ancient Aboriginal tribe called the Samoans, they were so bad they got kicked out of Australia.

Ouch. That almost feels like i was picked up by two players one on each leg and dropped on my head. But it must just be my imagination, just tough tackling, nothing dirty like a straight arm. thumbsup

by aucklandlaurie Sat 10 Dec 2016, 6:39 pm

Its getting a bit difficult these days, if you tackle with your head you run the risk of being accused of headbutting, use your shoulder(s) it called a shoulder charge, if you use your leg its called a trip or a kick, if you use your arms its called a swinging arm.. ..Who would want to be a defense coach?

by Gwlad Sat 10 Dec 2016, 8:11 pm

tackling avec la tete would be a headbutt

a straight arm, is as it says on the tin, a straight arm. Swing it and guess what, its a swinging arm.

Use of the shoulder is….a shoulder charge.

i can see a pattern developing here….these are all dangerous and illegal.

Use of leg, i refer you to the above.

To tackle: lead with shoulder and wrap arms. stay below neck.

It ain't rocket science.

by robbo277 Sun 11 Dec 2016, 9:24 am

ebop wrote:
BigGee wrote:
TJ wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:Cane not getting cited or banned was bizarre. I think the AB policy to deny everything is influencing citing comissioners. Mallinder by contrast sais straight away Hartley deserved red. You would never hear an AB say that.

When McCaw got a yellow last year he did exactly that. Saying he deserved it ad apologised

Was he apologising for that one, or all the others that he did not get given during the course of his career?
Who remembers the time Dylan Hartley threw a forearm to a prone McCaw's head in his team's 26-16 loss at Twickers in 2010 and didn't get sanctioned?

Classic stuff from Hartley

Was that the one where Mealamu got cited for headbutting? And came out with the defence that he was a good christian. His (unpunished) thuggery in 2005 wasn't taken into consideration, so I don't see why this is relevant now.

Hartley deserved to get sent off and will get a ban. He will get no sympathy from a citing panel on account of his previous record. However, I expect him to captain England in the Six Nations and, if he does that well and finishes the club season without further incident, I don't think this incident will define his year and his selection hopes.

by TJ Sun 11 Dec 2016, 10:01 am

Do you think he will still be captain if he is banned until the beginning of the series as seems likely?

by No 7&1/2 Sun 11 Dec 2016, 11:02 am

Its a red card but towards the low end so can't see a ban much beyond 4 or 5 games. The issue for him iss if Jones uses this as an excuse to look at George, Taylor or LCD. I've stopped guessing at what Jones will do!

by TJ Sun 11 Dec 2016, 12:18 pm

Mid point according to world rugby tables ie 4 week starting point ad they will take into account the outcome ie that SOB had to go off concussed.

But yes - 6 weeks ish would seem likely

by Presuming Ed Sun 11 Dec 2016, 2:03 pm

Having reviewed this many times I must agree with Griff. Total accident hartley goes to wrap his arm around sob who falls at the last second. Any othrr player and the card is recinded. Hartley will probably get 2 weeks

by geoff999rugby Sun 11 Dec 2016, 2:42 pm

Have to disagree - it was reckless and dangerous and given previous he will get a significant ban - 6 weeks or so.

That will put him out of Eddies pre 6N build up.

Sanderson on the box said it was really bad and from Mallinders comments he considers it unacceptable

by No 7&1/2 Sun 11 Dec 2016, 3:21 pm

Didn't think it was that bad but he certainly won't get a reduction for good behaviour!

by TJ Sun 11 Dec 2016, 3:21 pm

Presuming Ed. Not according to World rugby rules. I agree its not intentional and that he meant to go for the ball but any strike to the head is an automatic red card - see Burleighs red in the Edinburgh game.
4 weeks is the starting point. He won't get any reduction for previous good record and the fact SOB was concussed and had to lead the field is taken into account - so 6 wks would be consistent with the laws.

by SecretFly Sun 11 Dec 2016, 4:53 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't think it was that bad but he certainly won't get a reduction for good behaviour!

Look, I'm on record here as often standing up for Hartley. I've often said he's niggly, and opportunistic, and petty, and likes to get into the tête-à-tête stuff but I don't/didn't consider him a thug. Often he's been called that on these pages over the years and I'd always try to tone down that reading of him. There are/have been darker players than him.

But 7, I really don't know how bad a hit from behind - that contacted with the neck/head area at force - with no intention of arm wrapping - a stiff arm take down that Hartley is looking at all the way; his head and eyes even going down to follow O'Brien going down - no attempt to halt the blow when he realised O'Brien was sinking too low............ I don't know how bad a shot like that has to be?

For me a clear red - a red mist moment - and certainly Hartley, when faced with a little pressure of being a bencher, back to his more abrasive ways.

by Gwlad Sun 11 Dec 2016, 5:26 pm

If you argue that this 'reckless' and not 'intentional' you have obviously never tackled anyone. A straight arm requires thought.

Pre Lions 2013 I believed his ban could be the end of his international career. He was lucky to be given the opportunity to show those days were past. Obviously they are not.

I think that doing this, in this manner, while England captain, will mark him out as being temperamentally unsound for future positions of responsibility both at national level and with the Lions.

by Scottrf Sun 11 Dec 2016, 5:30 pm

It would be hard for him to predict where his head was going to be if he was intentionally targeting it.

by SecretFly Sun 11 Dec 2016, 5:34 pm

Scottrf wrote:It would be hard for him to predict where his head was going to be if he was intentionally targeting it.

Yeah, boxers have the same problem. Only a good boxer can continuously predict with accuracy. Doesn't change the nature of a boxer or his trade - he'll be heading for that area anyway, regardless of missing.

It was a bang from behind with intent and no remote notion in body language that it was a charge in tackle with a wrap-around intention.

by Presuming Ed Sun 11 Dec 2016, 6:02 pm

It was a clear attempt at a tackle. From the comments on here either the posters haven't seen it or are just jumping on the knock Hartley bandwagon.

by Gwlad Sun 11 Dec 2016, 6:10 pm

Presuming Ed wrote:It was a clear attempt at a tackle. From the comments on here either the posters haven't seen it or are just jumping on the knock Hartley bandwagon.

Rubbish.

SOB is being tackled and is moving towards Hartley. Hartley fully extends his right arm behind his shoulder. Doesn't drop his own shoulder and commit his own body preparing to tackle SOB, no he remains upright and having extended his arm fully behind the plane of his shoulders then throws his arm forwards and keeps it straight, making contact with the back of SOBs head.

Essentially he threw a perfect haymaker making contact with his arm.

by Steve_rugby Sun 11 Dec 2016, 6:31 pm

Rubbish.

SOB is being tackled and is moving towards Hartley. Hartley fully extends his right arm behind his shoulder. Doesn't drop his own shoulder and commit his own body preparing to tackle SOB, no he remains upright and having extended his arm fully behind the plane of his shoulders then throws his arm forwards and keeps it straight, making contact with the back of SOBs head.

Essentially he threw a perfect haymaker making contact with his arm.

Rubbish.

It was a clear attempt at a tackle. From the comments on here either the posters haven't seen it or are just jumping on the knock Hartley bandwagon.

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