Dylan Hartley rehabilitation setback

First topic message reminder :

Red-carded tonight for a swinging arm tackle against Leinster.

Saints were behind on the scoreboard but on the attack when Hartley came off the bench. Two scrum penalties later, Leinster were on the Saints goal line and duly scored. a try. Not long afterwards, Hartley was sent off, and Saints promptly crumbled. Not really an effective contribution.

It's the sort of thing Hartley has done before but seemed to have left behind under Jones. Poetically, both Lancaster and Jones were at the ground to bear witness.

This red happened in a club match but it has international implications. Jones might stand by his man, or he might take it as a cue to start looking elsewhere for captaincy options. The 6N match against Ireland could be a crucial encounter, and the referee will be Jerome Garces, who just sent Hartley off the field.

If Hartley doesn't lead England during the 6N, then his Lions chances will take a hit.

Poorfour wrote:

marty2086 wrote:the original intent was to swing his arm which is still illegal so the poorly timed defence is irrelevant

The only question is was he aiming for the head

Funny how some people on here can read minds.

Well aren't all of us reading minds pretty much every time we post here? Won't the citing guys also try to read Hartley's intent?
If one person says he meant to thump SOB on the head, that's attempting to read minds. If another guys says that's rubbish, that he never attempted anything of the sort - that's also a mind-reader pontificating.

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's weird that Hartley has a clean record with Jones in charge but just can't help himself when back at Saints.

Eddie Jones strokes the cat.  Others kick it or bite at it or bench it.  The cat likes to be stroked.

To be fair you are right. Jones has put Hartley on a pedestal/deified.

Must have been quite a shock going back to Saints and not getting the same treatment...

Perhaps it was Hartley's revenge. That's what you get for not giving me special treatment!

Going from a winning team to a team struggling for confidence and form.

Sent hurtling to earth.

Still I am not sure it will affect his deity status. Certainly with not some fans anyway.

He was careless and reckless.

Intent is almost impossible to prove. The only think that can influence interpret intent is past disciplinary record which in Hartleys case won't help him much.

It looked a bit wild and aggressive to me, but judging what he intended to do is based purely on the character of the dramatis personae in question.

If I was the ref I would have given him his marching orders too.

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's weird that Hartley has a clean record with Jones in charge but just can't help himself when back at Saints.

Eddie Jones strokes the cat.  Others kick it or bite at it or bench it.  The cat likes to be stroked.

To be fair you are right. Jones has put Hartley on a pedestal/deified.

Must have been quite a shock going back to Saints and not getting the same treatment...

Perhaps it was Hartley's revenge. That's what you get for not giving me special treatment!

Going from a winning team to a team struggling for confidence and form.

Sent hurtling to earth.

Still I am not sure it will affect his deity status. Certainly with not some fans anyway.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:He was careless and reckless.

Intent is almost impossible to prove. The only think that can influence interpret intent is past disciplinary record which in Hartleys case won't help him much.

It looked a bit wild and aggressive to me, but judging what he intended to do is based purely on the character of the dramatis personae in question.

If I was the ref I would have given him his marching orders too.

To be fair his record hasn't counted against him the past, hes got some pretty lenient bans given his record but the fact it was a swinging arm should go someway to prove the intent

Some over-reaction on here.

As others have put, it was an attempt at a hard hit to the chest /back / ball carrying arm that went wrong because SOB was tackled and going down before Hartley made contact. There was not an intent for it to be a head shot.

Red card is correct to the letter of the Law. Entry point for suspension is 4 weeks, Hartley will get that bumped up for his past record, but as long as he pleads guilty and doesn't eat the biscuits, I can see about 6 weeks suspension.

Unlike some of his other indiscretions, this one was a foul within the context of the game, not a random act of thuggery (the various gouging / biting / butting incidents).

marty2086 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Poorly timed, not for me as it would have been fine if Wood hadn't brought him down. Whether you want to term that as timing is up for debate I suppose. Really doubt he could be aiming at the head as he fell suddenly after he looked as if he had got away from the 1st tackle. Clear red by the rules (unless he does get away with the same citing panel as Canes).

It wouldn't have been fine as it was not an attempt to tackle, to be a tackle within the laws you have to use both arms or attempt to there was none on Hartleys part it was pure thuggery that was made worse by making contact with the head. If he wasn't going for the head he was going for his back which is still bloody dangerous

Disagree. Think he's just gone for the big hit and it's gone wrong.

the-goon wrote:It was 100% cynical and dirty play, throw the book at the scumbag. No attempt to tackle at all, it was a wild swinging arm. Perhaps aimed for the upperback/lower neck/ ball arrying arm, but he knew SOB was being tackled and would be dropping to the floor and still went chest high. He didn't care if he caught him in the head, otherwise he wouldn't have gone that high. Coward.

Normal tackle to go around chest height to stop the off load. Watch a match and you'll see loads that high.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

the-goon wrote:It was 100% cynical and dirty play, throw the book at the scumbag. No attempt to tackle at all, it was a wild swinging arm. Perhaps aimed for the upperback/lower neck/ ball arrying arm, but he knew SOB was being tackled and would be dropping to the floor and still went chest high. He didn't care if he caught him in the head, otherwise he wouldn't have gone that high. Coward.

Normal tackle to go around chest height to stop the off load. Watch a match and you'll see loads that high.

Try watching the clip, he shows no intention of using his left arm to tackle

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's weird that Hartley has a clean record with Jones in charge but just can't help himself when back at Saints.

Eddie Jones strokes the cat.  Others kick it or bite at it or bench it.  The cat likes to be stroked.

To be fair you are right. Jones has put Hartley on a pedestal/deified.

Must have been quite a shock going back to Saints and not getting the same treatment...

Perhaps it was Hartley's revenge. That's what you get for not giving me special treatment!

Going from a winning team to a team struggling for confidence and form.

Sent hurtling to earth.

Still I am not sure it will affect his deity status. Certainly with not some fans anyway.

Dear me. Surely we're in trouble for the 6Ns as we have no proven hooker bar Hartley?

marty2086 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

the-goon wrote:It was 100% cynical and dirty play, throw the book at the scumbag. No attempt to tackle at all, it was a wild swinging arm. Perhaps aimed for the upperback/lower neck/ ball arrying arm, but he knew SOB was being tackled and would be dropping to the floor and still went chest high. He didn't care if he caught him in the head, otherwise he wouldn't have gone that high. Coward.

Normal tackle to go around chest height to stop the off load. Watch a match and you'll see loads that high.

Try watching the clip, he shows no intention of using his left arm to tackle

Yup, I've watched it. See it countless times in games. It's O'Briens fall which leads to the unfortunate event.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

the-goon wrote:It was 100% cynical and dirty play, throw the book at the scumbag. No attempt to tackle at all, it was a wild swinging arm. Perhaps aimed for the upperback/lower neck/ ball arrying arm, but he knew SOB was being tackled and would be dropping to the floor and still went chest high. He didn't care if he caught him in the head, otherwise he wouldn't have gone that high. Coward.

Normal tackle to go around chest height to stop the off load. Watch a match and you'll see loads that high.

Try watching the clip, he shows no intention of using his left arm to tackle

Yup, I've watched it. See it countless times in games. It's O'Briens fall which leads to the unfortunate event.

No its the illegal swinging arm that lead to it but seems you like a bit thuggery and will find any poor excuse for it

Not really no. As I've said it was a red and I'd consider it a pretty low incident. If Wood doesn't fall you're looking at a pen and a yellow. It's against the rules but I really do see it loads of times in the games at the top end.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's weird that Hartley has a clean record with Jones in charge but just can't help himself when back at Saints.

Eddie Jones strokes the cat.  Others kick it or bite at it or bench it.  The cat likes to be stroked.

To be fair you are right. Jones has put Hartley on a pedestal/deified.

Must have been quite a shock going back to Saints and not getting the same treatment...

Perhaps it was Hartley's revenge. That's what you get for not giving me special treatment!

Going from a winning team to a team struggling for confidence and form.

Sent hurtling to earth.

Still I am not sure it will affect his deity status. Certainly with not some fans anyway.

Dear me. Surely we're in trouble for the 6Ns as we have no proven hooker bar Hartley?

George is the superior hooker in my opinion so if he stays fit England should be fine. About time, George starts.

Of course Hartley fanboys like you and Bambam will defend Hartley whatever he does.

It's not the worst thing that Hartley has done but he is his own worst enemy.

Is he ready or proven enough though Beshocked as he's barely started a game and Hughes wasn't ready?

Cool beshocked, can we finally put to bed the myth about requiring people to have a set number of games and starts for them to be ok for England? If the coach etc think they're good enough they're ready. Despite Hartley being one of the best hookers around I'm happy for England to go into the 6Ns with Geroge and Taylor personally.

beshocked wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's weird that Hartley has a clean record with Jones in charge but just can't help himself when back at Saints.

Eddie Jones strokes the cat.  Others kick it or bite at it or bench it.  The cat likes to be stroked.

To be fair you are right. Jones has put Hartley on a pedestal/deified.

Must have been quite a shock going back to Saints and not getting the same treatment...

Perhaps it was Hartley's revenge. That's what you get for not giving me special treatment!

Going from a winning team to a team struggling for confidence and form.

Sent hurtling to earth.

Still I am not sure it will affect his deity status. Certainly with not some fans anyway.

Dear me. Surely we're in trouble for the 6Ns as we have no proven hooker bar Hartley?

George is the superior hooker in my opinion so if he stays fit England should be fine. About time, George starts.

Of course Hartley fanboys like you and Bambam will defend Hartley whatever he does.

It's not the worst thing that Hartley has done but he is his own worst enemy.

Adding hyperbolic bullsheeit to every post doesn't make it more correct

As a consistently better hooker than Hartley, the answer is obviously yes.

He's won more silverware than Hartley too.

Doesn't get himself sent off or cost his side.

It's people like you who were holding Itoje back.

George is even a pretty good leader.

I think it's time Itoje was made captain too.

It's not hyperbole, Bambam it's true. How many ERCC titles has Hartley won?

George makes Saracens have one of the best set pieces in Europe. He's probably the most important frontrower.

I don't think I had any say in picking Itoje. I agree about the captaincy as well. But to reaffirm I'm glad we both now agree that number of caps and starts wasn't important.

You've changed your tune again now a Sarries player is involved I see, Hughes who's been proven for the past couple of years wasn't ready but others are being held back.

no 7 & 1/2 George is sufficiently experienced.

I just think it's great that England have the potential to get better by picking a superior hooker to start.

Will also allow England to develop other hookers. Cannot rely on Hartley all the time - he's been solid but room for improvement.

People have loved Hartley because he's been reliable, his leadership has been good for England.

I just think George can do all that and add more, just without the disciplinary baggage.

Hughes started vs Australia in his 3rd cap wasn't it? I wanted Hughes to start vs Fiji. Not thrown into the deep end. It worked but not ideal.

Hughes wasn't ready to be first choice no. Billy is still superior to Hughes but Hughes did well when replacing Billy.

George in comparison has outperformed Hartley at club level for the last two seasons.

Have been looking at the clip again - lots of people have been saying this is just a hard tackle gone wrong - but if you watch the sequence - Hartley comes in and brings his left arm up with the hand facing O'Brien and directs it towards his back around the left shoulderblade, while at the same time swings his right arm in an arc. If he was attempting a tackle he wouldn't have had his left arm up to brace against the impact into O'Briens body. It looks pretty clear to me that he was aiming to hit O'Brien not tackle him. Maybe he didn't mean to hit him on the head but he was definitely hitting him.

The original post about special treatment and pedestals and deities was the hyperbolic bullsh!t

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 George is sufficiently experienced.

I just think it's great that England have the potential to get better by picking a superior hooker to start.

Will also allow England to develop other hookers. Cannot rely on Hartley all the time - he's been solid but room for improvement.

People have loved Hartley because he's been reliable, his leadership has been good for England.

I just think George can do all that and add more, just without the disciplinary baggage.

Hughes started vs Australia in his 3rd cap wasn't it? I wanted Hughes to start vs Fiji. Not thrown into the deep end. It worked but not ideal.

So do I. I have no problem with him at all. He must have more caps and starts than Webber had before the WC now mustn't he?

No need to answer that by the way beshocked, just pointing out the lack of consistency.

Bambam well I disagree. I think Hartley has had special treatment, he is treated as a deity and your staunch defence doesn't help to change my mind. Undroppable deity.

A ban though would force Jones to look at other options. It's what I want.


no 7 & 1/2 we've gone over this too many times....

Webber couldn't even get past a journeyman like Batty. George in comparison played an influential role in winning the AP - Lancaster logic - pick the bloke who was struggling for form. Not pick arguably the form hooker. Make him 5th choice behind LCD,Hartley,Webber and Youngs.

Yup, but at least you're finally being honest and it wasn't to do with caps and starts and never has been. We wouldn't get into have as much to and froing if you were just honest to begin with.

Note to self

Anyone picked ahead of a Saracens player is automatically treated as a deity - do not bother to argue this point

I hate to make the point but George didn't really do himself too many favours to push ahead of Hartley in the AIs. He was himself solid and not much more when he came on for his caps. If he had managed a few more important interventions this ban may have been irrelevant anyway. I hope Hartley isn't banned for the start of the 6Ns for 2 reasons. I don't think it's deserved and I'd like to see George and Taylor put so much pressure on Jones that even with Hartley available he has a blooming hard choice.

Where did all this 'Hartley has been made into a deity' gibberish come from?

beshocked wrote:Bambam well I disagree. I think Hartley has had special treatment, he is treated as a deity and your staunch defence doesn't help to change my mind. Undroppable deity.

A ban though would force Jones to look at other options. It's what I want.


no 7 & 1/2 we've gone over this too many times....

Webber couldn't even get past a journeyman like Batty. George in comparison played an influential role in winning the AP - Lancaster logic - pick the bloke who was struggling for form. Not pick arguably the form hooker. Make him 5th choice behind LCD,Hartley,Webber and Youngs.

Form goes up and down. Weber did look promising for a while before crashing without trace.

Does England need Itoje to be captain?

I don't think so. I don't think I'd make someone like Itoje captain, not when you have other guys that might be better suited.

I would rather he could continue in the same vein unburdened by the additional pressure of being a captain. Especially an England captain. Look how much better Robshaw has played since being unburdened.

Cyril wrote:Where did all this 'Hartley has been made into a deity' gibberish come from?

The same place 99.8% of the gibberish on England threads comes from

poissonrouge wrote:Have been looking at the clip again - lots of people have been saying this is just a hard tackle gone wrong - but if you watch the sequence - Hartley comes in and brings his left arm up with the hand facing O'Brien and directs it towards his back around the left shoulderblade, while at the same time swings his right arm in an arc. If he was attempting a tackle he wouldn't have had his left arm up to brace against the impact into O'Briens body. It looks pretty clear to me that he was aiming to hit O'Brien not tackle him. Maybe he didn't mean to hit him on the head but he was definitely hitting him.

That's exactly the way I see it, the way he really lunges into it he wanted to make a forceful impact

Personally I think he was going for the head as I do think theres a slight adjustment but I could be wrong

BamBam wrote:

Cyril wrote:Where did all this 'Hartley has been made into a deity' gibberish come from?

The same place 99.8% of the gibberish on England threads comes from

Aye. I wish beshocked would leave those straw men alone!

1) I do laugh heartily at all the thuggery calls from any non English fan! Its comical....

2) Im not convinced George has been a far better player than Hartley. But it may be come the 6n he is given a chance to prove it! Though I suspect Hartley will be in place come the first game.

3) Saints are a mess at the moment. Mallinder needs to get a serious grip on the whole situation.

marty2086 wrote:

poissonrouge wrote:Have been looking at the clip again - lots of people have been saying this is just a hard tackle gone wrong - but if you watch the sequence - Hartley comes in and brings his left arm up with the hand facing O'Brien and directs it towards his back around the left shoulderblade, while at the same time swings his right arm in an arc. If he was attempting a tackle he wouldn't have had his left arm up to brace against the impact into O'Briens body. It looks pretty clear to me that he was aiming to hit O'Brien not tackle him. Maybe he didn't mean to hit him on the head but he was definitely hitting him.

That's exactly the way I see it, the way he really lunges into it he wanted to make a forceful impact

Personally I think he was going for the head as I do think theres a slight adjustment but I could be wrong

You Irish chaps aren't big fans of Hartley though (while very quick to defend the likes of Healy and O'Brien for their transgressions), so a certain pinch of salt should be taken with these opinions

Cyril wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

poissonrouge wrote:Have been looking at the clip again - lots of people have been saying this is just a hard tackle gone wrong - but if you watch the sequence - Hartley comes in and brings his left arm up with the hand facing O'Brien and directs it towards his back around the left shoulderblade, while at the same time swings his right arm in an arc. If he was attempting a tackle he wouldn't have had his left arm up to brace against the impact into O'Briens body. It looks pretty clear to me that he was aiming to hit O'Brien not tackle him. Maybe he didn't mean to hit him on the head but he was definitely hitting him.

That's exactly the way I see it, the way he really lunges into it he wanted to make a forceful impact

Personally I think he was going for the head as I do think theres a slight adjustment but I could be wrong

You Irish chaps aren't big fans of Hartley though (while very quick to defend the likes of Healy and O'Brien for their transgressions), so a certain pinch of salt should be taken with these opinions

So because some have defended Irish players all our opinions are lessened?

That's like saying because some Englishmen say x all their opinions regarding anything should hold less wait

By the way Hartley seems to have an issue with the Irish, Johnny O'Connor, Stephen Ferris, Rory Best and Sean O'Brien have all been victims of his

GeordieFalcon wrote:....

2) Im not convinced George has been a far better player than Hartley. But it may be come the 6n he is given a chance to prove it! Though I suspect Hartley will be in place come the first game.

...

Not saying George isn't a good player, because he is. His basics in the scrum and lineout are very handy. It is worth pointing out that he also looks good
1) because he is coming on late in the 2nd half when the game has broken up, often against 2nd choice front rows for instance.
2) He hangs around on the wing. He is great ball in hand (and that chip he did in the summer!!). But this is very 'visual' stuff. I don't know what his stats are like for, say, hitting rucks and clearing out. The kinds of unseen work which Hartley is good at.

Eh Cyril, Hartley has a total of 54 weeks suspensions in his career. I think Healy has received two yellow cards in his international career and not much more at a club level. Similarly O'Brien probably has served a few weeks in bans.

Your comparison is comical.

It was a deliberate attempt to book some time off..

He has booked at least 5 weeks off over the Christmas period.. Nice..

... and has booked the summer off, as he wont be going on a Lions tour now..



Joking aside, he knew exactly what he was doing. IMO, he should be stripped of the England captaincy, as thats not the example or role model we want for you youngsters playing the game. I also, think he's blown any chance of being the Lions captain now, as Gats wont put up with this. He may have even blown the chance of being selected for the Lions, and lets face it, wont be the first time an England capt has been overlooked for a Lions spot.

Never been a fan of Hartley, always thought him to be a hot-head, but I think he has really blown it this time. Could be the downward spiral of his career.

Even by WWE standards that was a pretty stiff arm shot, Hartley knew exactly what he'd done.

I can see a 10 weeks plus ban, maybe longer. 100% red card with no mitigating circumstances at all.

Nothing quite like the charge of the high horse brigade...

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Eh Cyril, Hartley has a total of 54 weeks suspensions in his career. I think Healy has received two yellow cards in his international career and not much more at a club level. Similarly O'Brien probably has serves a few weeks in bans.

Your comparison is comical.

Thats over 1 years ban over 12 years he's been professional player (think 2005 for Worcester was the start of his professional career)...

Its a disgrace...

No9 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Eh Cyril, Hartley has a total of 54 weeks suspensions in his career. I think Healy has received two yellow cards in his international career and not much more at a club level. Similarly O'Brien probably has serves a few weeks in bans.

Your comparison is comical.

Thats over 1 years ban over 12 years he's been professional player (think 2005 for Worcester was the start of his professional career)...

Its a disgrace...

Comparing Hartley to Healy and SOB is some of the funniest posting I have seen here. Cyril is good for a laugh though to be fair to him.

The staunch defending of Hartley does suggest I am correct no matter what you say Bambam.

As usual your contribution to threads are non existent. Just foaming at the mouth about someone stating the obvious.

Geordiefalcon of course Hartley will be picked, the guy is undroppable. Can do no wrong for some.

Can you not see he has a serious problem with his discipline?

Saints are indeed a mess and of course Hartley hasn't contributed to that....

Hartley can't stop himself from doing something stupid.

Irish players are no saints.... but this thread isn't about Ireland. It's about Hartley.

This is the player many wanted to be Lions captain.....

No9 wrote:
Joking aside, he knew exactly what he was doing. IMO, he should be stripped of the England captaincy, as thats not the example or role model we want for you youngsters playing the game. I also, think he's blown any chance of being the Lions captain now, as Gats wont put up with this. He may have even blown the chance of being selected for the Lions, and lets face it, wont be the first time an England capt has been overlooked for a Lions spot.

Never been a fan of Hartley, always thought him to be a hot-head, but I think he has really blown it this time. Could be the downward spiral of his career.

Hartley has a habit of saying sorry and being given the benefit of the doubt and being allowed a 3rd/4th/5th chance

Eddie Jones doesn't strike me as a second chance kind of guy and Mallinder seems to have reached the end with him, if hes out in the cold with both I can see him heading to France

I don't think Eddie Jones will drop him for England. Jones being an Aussie is well used to dealing with bone heads. Hartely will be back for England.

Its hard to find any mitigating factors in this case. It was a swinging arm which in itself is not allowed. He hit O'Brien in the head and he had to go off.

Hartley deserved a red card for stupidity alone and a second one for dangerous play. You would be tempted to give him the benefit of the doubt that he wasnt aiming for head because there was a slip involved but in all probability given the rap sheet of the man he was probably going for a cheap shot so there can be no complaints.

lots of angelic do gooders on here....

Do you really think Eddie Jones gives a toss about role models or a team full of Angels.... etc. He wants a physical, strong team with attitude that WINS! End of.

Hartley will get a 6 week ban and will be in for the 6n.

Geordiefalcon of course Hartley will be picked, the guy is undroppable. Can do no wrong for some.

At the moment he is undroppable because he is a very good hooker....and is a very good captain - whether any one likes it or not.

George will come on the whole of the 6n...then will be the England starting hooker whilst the lions are on tour.
No big issues.

Would you really want to start a player in the six nations who hasn't played in six weeks? Not ideal at all.