Player Salaries
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Pot Hale
carpet baboon
Scottrf
marty2086
HongKongCherry
Rugby Fan
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: Club Rugby
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Player Salaries
On the recent Flats & Shanks podcast, Dave Flatman said player salaries have taken a sharp leap upwards recently, which could lead to a crunch when next season's recruitment and re-signing gets underway.
He had no numbers, and stressed that he is sceptical of some figures bandied about in the press, but felt that good club players can now get salaries which might once have only been offered to top internationals. Tom Shanklin suggested such people can trade up for an extra £50-60,000 now, as opposed to £15-20,000 before.
Clearly, the higher cap and marquee player exemptions are contributing but Flatman feels that clubs might have gone straight to the limit, which leaves little room to offer extra money to players with contracts coming up next year. They will also want a bump to keep up with their peers. Flatman wonders whether teams will have to cut squad numbers, or else if salaries will have to come down to stay manageable.
I have no idea but can't help thinking life might be a lot easier if all this information was public.
He had no numbers, and stressed that he is sceptical of some figures bandied about in the press, but felt that good club players can now get salaries which might once have only been offered to top internationals. Tom Shanklin suggested such people can trade up for an extra £50-60,000 now, as opposed to £15-20,000 before.
Clearly, the higher cap and marquee player exemptions are contributing but Flatman feels that clubs might have gone straight to the limit, which leaves little room to offer extra money to players with contracts coming up next year. They will also want a bump to keep up with their peers. Flatman wonders whether teams will have to cut squad numbers, or else if salaries will have to come down to stay manageable.
I have no idea but can't help thinking life might be a lot easier if all this information was public.
Rugby Fan- Moderator
- Posts : 8219
Join date : 2012-09-14
Re: Player Salaries
Glaws' CEO, Stephen Vaughan, was interviewed last night on BBC Glos and one of the points he discussed was the salary cap. He suggested that most clubs had been sensible with regards to the recent hike in the cap and with the exception of a notable few, the remaining clubs have not used the full range of the cap. He explained Glaws pay up to the full standard cap, but have not utilised the various additional credits available, which adds c.£2m per annum; and this appears to be the situation of most clubs. As a result, the inflation of players' salaries may not be as large as is being reported and given the time of year may well just be the work of agents looking to get the best deals possible.
HongKongCherry- Posts : 3297
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Glawster
Re: Player Salaries
Rugby Fan wrote:
I have no idea but can't help thinking life might be a lot easier if all this information was public.
Why?
marty2086- Posts : 11208
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 38
Location : Belfast
Re: Player Salaries
Thats my conclusion too
Private companies have no obligation to disclose such information
Private companies have no obligation to disclose such information
marty2086- Posts : 11208
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 38
Location : Belfast
Re: Player Salaries
Am i right in thinking all salaries in the NFL are made public?
carpet baboon- Posts : 3549
Join date : 2014-05-08
Location : Midlands
Re: Player Salaries
The league is operating a salary cap. Most of us have suspicions that the cap was broken before by one or more teams. If former professionals like Flatman are concerned the wage structure might become unsustainable only a short time after the cap was increased, then transparency could be a big help.marty2086 wrote:Rugby Fan wrote:
I have no idea but can't help thinking life might be a lot easier if all this information was public.
Why?
Players aren't stupid; they already know some of their team mates are paid different rates, so it's unlikely to lead to any ill-feeling. It would help stop people talking up salaries in an information vacuum, while also perhaps give a lift to the perennially underpaid.
More importantly, the league needs to be competitive. The cap is there to ensure it is, so there needs to be adequate oversight to confirm it's doing the job.
Rugby Fan- Moderator
- Posts : 8219
Join date : 2012-09-14
Re: Player Salaries
Rugby Fan wrote:The league is operating a salary cap. Most of us have suspicions that the cap was broken before by one or more teams. If former professionals like Flatman are concerned the wage structure might become unsustainable only a short time after the cap was increased, then transparency could be a big help.marty2086 wrote:Rugby Fan wrote:
I have no idea but can't help thinking life might be a lot easier if all this information was public.
Why?
Players aren't stupid; they already know some of their team mates are paid different rates, so it's unlikely to lead to any ill-feeling. It would help stop people talking up salaries in an information vacuum, while also perhaps give a lift to the perennially underpaid.
More importantly, the league needs to be competitive. The cap is there to ensure it is, so there needs to be adequate oversight to confirm it's doing the job.
Im not sure you get what transparency and oversight are, there already exists oversight whether its adequate or not is mere speculation. Telling the public isn't transparency, the only people the clubs need to be transparent to are the taxman and those policing the cap.
Im not sure how going public provides oversight either
marty2086- Posts : 11208
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 38
Location : Belfast
Re: Player Salaries
The way I see it if everyone is aware of what there fellow pros earn, it helps everyone.
Players can see what the "average " salary is for there ability
Stops agents whispering sweet words to there clients that they are worth more.
Allows teams to plan ahead financially as they have a good idea of what they will be offering/being asked for.
Everyone can see the teams are operating on a "level" playing feild
Players can see what the "average " salary is for there ability
Stops agents whispering sweet words to there clients that they are worth more.
Allows teams to plan ahead financially as they have a good idea of what they will be offering/being asked for.
Everyone can see the teams are operating on a "level" playing feild
carpet baboon- Posts : 3549
Join date : 2014-05-08
Location : Midlands
Re: Player Salaries
Want is driving salaries upwards to unsustainable levels?
Why are English clubs pursuing or trying to emulate Top 1§4 clubs in their deals and spending?
Why are English clubs pursuing or trying to emulate Top 1§4 clubs in their deals and spending?
Pot Hale- Posts : 7781
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 62
Location : North East
Re: Player Salaries
carpet baboon wrote:The way I see it if everyone is aware of what there fellow pros earn, it helps everyone.
Players can see what the "average " salary is for there ability
Stops agents whispering sweet words to there clients that they are worth more.
Allows teams to plan ahead financially as they have a good idea of what they will be offering/being asked for.
Everyone can see the teams are operating on a "level" playing feild
Your logic is seriously flawed, how does not knowing what someone else earns allow agents to say to players they are worth more? And who says the players themselves don't know what others are earning?
Making it public will just give agents examples of players earning more and they can say x is earning y, so you should be earning that or more
marty2086- Posts : 11208
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 38
Location : Belfast
Re: Player Salaries
This is total transparency, American sport style:marty2086 wrote:Rugby Fan wrote:The league is operating a salary cap. Most of us have suspicions that the cap was broken before by one or more teams. If former professionals like Flatman are concerned the wage structure might become unsustainable only a short time after the cap was increased, then transparency could be a big help.marty2086 wrote:Rugby Fan wrote:
I have no idea but can't help thinking life might be a lot easier if all this information was public.
Why?
Players aren't stupid; they already know some of their team mates are paid different rates, so it's unlikely to lead to any ill-feeling. It would help stop people talking up salaries in an information vacuum, while also perhaps give a lift to the perennially underpaid.
More importantly, the league needs to be competitive. The cap is there to ensure it is, so there needs to be adequate oversight to confirm it's doing the job.
Im not sure you get what transparency and oversight are, there already exists oversight whether its adequate or not is mere speculation. Telling the public isn't transparency, the only people the clubs need to be transparent to are the taxman and those policing the cap.
Im not sure how going public provides oversight either
NFL salaries by player:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/
NFL team salaries versus the salary cap:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/
it has long been accepted as gospel by the people who run the professional leagues in major American sport that total transparency regarding the salary process is what drives adherence to the rules and competitive balance. The salary rules, including the cap, are negotiated with the Player's Union/Association and therefore are legal documents, and any violation has legal consequences.
It also simplifies the salary process for players/agents and the clubs/owners. Everyone knows the current player salary, the available cap space at the clubs, the relative salary value of players in different positions, and so on. Not exactly capitalism, but the system works. The NFL owners, mostly successful billionaires, have long been called capitalists who run the NFL like socialists.
But, I think the key point is the owners have been clear it is the openness is what enables them to trust each other. This in addition to the independent auditing and registration of all contracts with the various league offices, and so on.
This could work in England and France since the clubs are all independently owned. However in all other major Rugby nations there are different business models which can make it more difficult.
doctor_grey- Posts : 12354
Join date : 2011-04-30
Re: Player Salaries
We know that the governing body and the clubs are spineless with regard to policing the cap. So maybe it helps in that regard.
With extending the cap and adding a marquee player it isn't achieving the aims anyway. Clubs have vastly different budgets and some are unsustaniably unprofitable if not for investors who are willing to take the hit. It doesn't make a level playing field.
Even if it's policed properly clubs just provide non-salary benefits to recruit the talent.
With extending the cap and adding a marquee player it isn't achieving the aims anyway. Clubs have vastly different budgets and some are unsustaniably unprofitable if not for investors who are willing to take the hit. It doesn't make a level playing field.
Even if it's policed properly clubs just provide non-salary benefits to recruit the talent.
Scottrf- Posts : 14359
Join date : 2011-01-26
Re: Player Salaries
doctor_grey wrote:This is total transparency, American sport style:marty2086 wrote:Rugby Fan wrote:The league is operating a salary cap. Most of us have suspicions that the cap was broken before by one or more teams. If former professionals like Flatman are concerned the wage structure might become unsustainable only a short time after the cap was increased, then transparency could be a big help.marty2086 wrote:Rugby Fan wrote:
I have no idea but can't help thinking life might be a lot easier if all this information was public.
Why?
Players aren't stupid; they already know some of their team mates are paid different rates, so it's unlikely to lead to any ill-feeling. It would help stop people talking up salaries in an information vacuum, while also perhaps give a lift to the perennially underpaid.
More importantly, the league needs to be competitive. The cap is there to ensure it is, so there needs to be adequate oversight to confirm it's doing the job.
Im not sure you get what transparency and oversight are, there already exists oversight whether its adequate or not is mere speculation. Telling the public isn't transparency, the only people the clubs need to be transparent to are the taxman and those policing the cap.
Im not sure how going public provides oversight either
NFL salaries by player:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/
NFL team salaries versus the salary cap:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/
it has long been accepted as gospel by the people who run the professional leagues in major American sport that total transparency regarding the salary process is what drives adherence to the rules and competitive balance. The salary rules, including the cap, are negotiated with the Player's Union/Association and therefore are legal documents, and any violation has legal consequences.
It also simplifies the salary process for players/agents and the clubs/owners. Everyone knows the current player salary, the available cap space at the clubs, the relative salary value of players in different positions, and so on. Not exactly capitalism, but the system works. The NFL owners, mostly successful billionaires, have long been called capitalists who run the NFL like socialists.
But, I think the key point is the owners have been clear it is the openness is what enables them to trust each other. This in addition to the independent auditing and registration of all contracts with the various league offices, and so on.
This could work in England and France since the clubs are all independently owned. However in all other major Rugby nations there are different business models which can make it more difficult.
Its nothing to do with transparency its because the league is a not for profit and the law requires it
marty2086- Posts : 11208
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 38
Location : Belfast
Re: Player Salaries
I don't know about the Premiership, but my mate used to work with a fiance of a Championship player and my friend used to craic with her and said that her partner was under 8 grand a year which just isn't liveable in most places. I suppose a prosaic guess would be that Premiership player are not on 'that' much more.
Cumbrian- Posts : 5656
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 41
Location : Bath
Re: Player Salaries
The premiership is not for profit? How does that impact this? If the transparency keeps everyone honest, how can it be the wrong thing to do? What is the benefit of hiding this kind of information?marty2086 wrote:doctor_grey wrote:This is total transparency, American sport style:marty2086 wrote:Rugby Fan wrote:The league is operating a salary cap. Most of us have suspicions that the cap was broken before by one or more teams. If former professionals like Flatman are concerned the wage structure might become unsustainable only a short time after the cap was increased, then transparency could be a big help.marty2086 wrote:Rugby Fan wrote:
I have no idea but can't help thinking life might be a lot easier if all this information was public.
Why?
Players aren't stupid; they already know some of their team mates are paid different rates, so it's unlikely to lead to any ill-feeling. It would help stop people talking up salaries in an information vacuum, while also perhaps give a lift to the perennially underpaid.
More importantly, the league needs to be competitive. The cap is there to ensure it is, so there needs to be adequate oversight to confirm it's doing the job.
Im not sure you get what transparency and oversight are, there already exists oversight whether its adequate or not is mere speculation. Telling the public isn't transparency, the only people the clubs need to be transparent to are the taxman and those policing the cap.
Im not sure how going public provides oversight either
NFL salaries by player:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/
NFL team salaries versus the salary cap:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/
it has long been accepted as gospel by the people who run the professional leagues in major American sport that total transparency regarding the salary process is what drives adherence to the rules and competitive balance. The salary rules, including the cap, are negotiated with the Player's Union/Association and therefore are legal documents, and any violation has legal consequences.
It also simplifies the salary process for players/agents and the clubs/owners. Everyone knows the current player salary, the available cap space at the clubs, the relative salary value of players in different positions, and so on. Not exactly capitalism, but the system works. The NFL owners, mostly successful billionaires, have long been called capitalists who run the NFL like socialists.
But, I think the key point is the owners have been clear it is the openness is what enables them to trust each other. This in addition to the independent auditing and registration of all contracts with the various league offices, and so on.
This could work in England and France since the clubs are all independently owned. However in all other major Rugby nations there are different business models which can make it more difficult.
Its nothing to do with transparency its because the league is a not for profit and the law requires it
doctor_grey- Posts : 12354
Join date : 2011-04-30
Re: Player Salaries
marty2086 wrote:
Its nothing to do with transparency its because the league is a not for profit and the law requires it
I didn't know that, so I Googled it and found this:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2015/04/28/nfl-tax-exempt-status-roger-goodell-drop-salary/26543647/
I'm not sure that supports your claim, Martyn, or am I misunderstanding?
Re: Player Salaries
PhilBB wrote:marty2086 wrote:
Its nothing to do with transparency its because the league is a not for profit and the law requires it
I didn't know that, so I Googled it and found this:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2015/04/28/nfl-tax-exempt-status-roger-goodell-drop-salary/26543647/
I'm not sure that supports your claim, Martyn, or am I misunderstanding?
How does it not?
But on actually looking into it, it turns out the league don't release the details of player salaries its actually the players union as part of their Collective Bargaining Agreement with the NFL because players get salary guarantees etc
marty2086- Posts : 11208
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 38
Location : Belfast
Re: Player Salaries
I think that you've answered your own question on why it doesn't support your claim.
a) the tax status of the league has changed yet salaries are still published, so your claim doesn't follow
b) it isn't the league, by your own admission, publishing the salaries, so your claim doesn't follow.
So your claim of 'the league is a not for profit and the law requires it' is contradicted by that article and your subsequent post.
That's right, isn't it?
a) the tax status of the league has changed yet salaries are still published, so your claim doesn't follow
b) it isn't the league, by your own admission, publishing the salaries, so your claim doesn't follow.
So your claim of 'the league is a not for profit and the law requires it' is contradicted by that article and your subsequent post.
That's right, isn't it?
Re: Player Salaries
PhilBB wrote:I think that you've answered your own question on why it doesn't support your claim.
a) the tax status of the league has changed yet salaries are still published, so your claim doesn't follow
b) it isn't the league, by your own admission, publishing the salaries, so your claim doesn't follow.
So your claim of 'the league is a not for profit and the law requires it' is contradicted by that article and your subsequent post.
That's right, isn't it?
Well considering your article mentioned nothing of the players it didn't address the issue did it? It also didn't mention that they still had to publish salaries up until last year as it covered the tax exempt period
But we can play your silly games but you can play with yourself
marty2086- Posts : 11208
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 38
Location : Belfast
Re: Player Salaries
The article I linked to showed your claim of it being a legal requirement for a not for profit was incorrect. So it did address the issue. How did you miss that?
Do you stand by: "Its nothing to do with transparency its because the league is a not for profit and the law requires it"?
Do you stand by: "Its nothing to do with transparency its because the league is a not for profit and the law requires it"?
Re: Player Salaries
PhilBB wrote:The article I linked to showed your claim of it being a legal requirement for a not for profit was incorrect. So it did address the issue. How did you miss that?
Do you stand by: "Its nothing to do with transparency its because the league is a not for profit and the law requires it"?
I notice you looked to find out if I was wrong rather than find the actual reason, nice to know 'stop being a petty idiot' wasn't a new years resolution for you
But don't worry
marty2086- Posts : 11208
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 38
Location : Belfast
Re: Player Salaries
Oh, I see. So I sought clarification on your point as I was unaware of it, I found it to be wrong, showed where it was wrong so sought clarification from you to ensure it was wrong, only for you to call me a 'petty idiot' rather than just write 'Yep, it looks like I got that wrong'.
The first thing I read from you in weeks and it was wrong. As ever, you can't just write 'Yep, it looks like I got that wrong'.
The first thing I read from you in weeks and it was wrong. As ever, you can't just write 'Yep, it looks like I got that wrong'.
Re: Player Salaries
Tax glorious Tax.
Welcome 2017. Back to the important things in life after the turkey and auld lang syne.
Welcome 2017. Back to the important things in life after the turkey and auld lang syne.
SecretFly- Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12
Re: Player Salaries
PhilBB wrote:Oh, I see. So I sought clarification on your point as I was unaware of it, I found it to be wrong, showed where it was wrong so sought clarification from you to ensure it was wrong, only for you to call me a 'petty idiot' rather than just write 'Yep, it looks like I got that wrong'.
The first thing I read from you in weeks and it was wrong. As ever, you can't just write 'Yep, it looks like I got that wrong'.
No you didn't seek to offer anything to the debate, just your usual your are wrong bs
marty2086- Posts : 11208
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 38
Location : Belfast
Re: Player Salaries
I sought to offer only the evidence to prove that your claim was wrong. In that, I have succeeded.
If you are going to make such claims, in such a manner, you really should try to be accurate, Martyn.
If you are going to make such claims, in such a manner, you really should try to be accurate, Martyn.
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