Froch within reach of Britian's all-time greatest

First topic message reminder :

I'm not Froch's biggest fan but I can't help but respect the man.

Since leaving the domestic scene, he's fought: Pascal, Taylor, Dirrell, Kessler, Abraham & Johnson.

He lost to Kessler but that was a close fight and had it been in Nottingham, Froch probably would have got the nod.

And all of these fights have taken place within the last 3-years!

He made his first championship defence in America - not in Cardiff against Branco Sobot!

He's fought in Denmark, Finland, and America twice. The final against Ward will also take place in America.

Froch puts Calzaghe's record to shame.

If your going to insult me in the future "Stephanie" at least make it funny.
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@the genius of manny ...Straight back at ya!, about as funny as not being able to sleep!

Young_Towzer wrote:If your going to insult me in the future "Stephanie" at least make it funny.
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@the genius of manny ...Straight back at ya!, about as funny as not being able to sleep!

Not as funny when Cotto quit against Margarito and Pacquiao

Not as funny when Cotto quit against Margarito and Pacquiao Very Happy
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He never though did he lol? ya won't get a reaction outta me, Mayweather wouldn't fight neither anyway because they weren't easy fights, also not quite as funny as Mayweather's rattled racist jibes at Manny eh? hahahah

Young_Towzer wrote:Not as funny when Cotto quit against Margarito and Pacquiao Very Happy
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He never though did he lol? ya won't get a reaction outta me, Mayweather wouldn't fight neither anyway because they weren't easy fights, also not quite as funny as Mayweather's rattled racist jibes at Manny eh? hahahah

He quit against Margarito and Pacquiao...He never fought them because they are top rank fighters and Bob Arum doesn't want to do business with Floyd Mayweather like Bob doesn't like doing business with other promoters...They are easy fights, Floyd Mayweather beats both with ease.

He quit against Margarito and Pacquiao...He never fought them because they are top rank fighters and Bob Arum doesn't want to do business with Floyd Mayweather like Bob doesn't like doing business with other promoters...They are easy fights, Floyd Mayweather beats both with ease.
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He never fought them because he would of been destroyed, your a joke 8)

It's easy to say A would've beat B without having to put that to the test...

Play nice, fellas. Only 201 days to Christmas.

It's easy to say A would've beat B without having to put that to the test...
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Obsessives like him can't judge a Pacquiao fight anyway, he's laid in his Mayweather bedding as we speak, hardly a fair judgment

Young_Towzer wrote:He quit against Margarito and Pacquiao...He never fought them because they are top rank fighters and Bob Arum doesn't want to do business with Floyd Mayweather like Bob doesn't like doing business with other promoters...They are easy fights, Floyd Mayweather beats both with ease.
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He never fought them because he would of been destroyed, your a joke 8)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A83965387

Just like you said Degale would destroy Groves in 4 rounds...You carry on thinking they destroy Floyd Mayweather though

Human Windmill I saw his insult before you removed it and also I know you have a tough job editing everyones posts so I wont go down to his level.

Young_Towzer wrote:It's easy to say A would've beat B without having to put that to the test...
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Obsessives like him can't judge a Pacquiao fight anyway, he's laid in his Mayweather bedding as we speak, hardly a fair judgment

I love irony

I appreciate it, PBF. Thanks.

I'd also appreciate it if we can all keep the lid on, to some extent.

Could we also get back on topic as well possibly?

Just like you said Degale would destroy Groves in 4 rounds...You carry on thinking they destroy Floyd Mayweather though thumbsup

Human Windmill I saw his insult before you removed it and also I know you have a tough job editing everyones posts so I wont go down to his level.
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my level haha, i'm not obsessed with a fighter, you got banned yourself, end of. I also never abused Windy at all, what did i call him? and i then emailed him to appologise because i didn't know he had to edit posts. I won't respond to you again anyway, you bore me lol.

Young_Towzer wrote:Just like you said Degale would destroy Groves in 4 rounds...You carry on thinking they destroy Floyd Mayweather though thumbsup

Human Windmill I saw his insult before you removed it and also I know you have a tough job editing everyones posts so I wont go down to his level.
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my level haha, i'm not obsessed with a fighter, you got banned yourself, end of. I also never abused Windy at all, what did i call him? and i then emailed him to appologise because i didn't know he had to edit posts. I won't respond to you again anyway, you bore me lol.

hitmansam wrote:**Like it or not, Calzaghe proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that he was the best 168 lb fighter on the planet before he ventured up to Light-Heavyweight.

Oh, OK. So how many top-10 super-middleweights did Calzaghe beat?

How long did it take him to unify?

And all the champions he beat were (1) coming back from defeat(s), and (2) never achieved anything after.

On point 2, one of them went on to defeat the greatest brit of all time, Kessler

**Like it or not, Calzaghe proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that he was the best 168 lb fighter on the planet before he ventured up to Light-Heavyweight.
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Calzaghe beats Froch imo, however, Froch's record is miles better and has beat 50/50 opponents throughout his championship career. Just because Calzaghe was unbeaten, so was Sven Ottke but was Hagler? lol

You mention Pavlik but ignored my response to Roy Jones. Care to answer regarding the floors in your theory?

hitmansam wrote:**Calzaghe offered Pavlik a fight but the reply was that Kelly wasn't ready.

HAHA! When was that? When Pavlik wasn't a top-10 Middleweight?

**Yet the supposed warrior Miguel Cotto never faced the 3 best fighters at the weight Floyd Mayweather, Kosta Tszyu and Ricky Hatton. Never been the man at 140, 147 and 154...Hatton beats Cotto up makes him quit on his stool.

Hatton wanted nothing to do with Cotto. I love Ricky but he was very well managed. Cotto called Hatton out for a fight in Manchester - Team Hatton steered clear. And Mayweather wouldn't fight Margarito, let along Cotto when he seemed at the top of his game.

Look at Cotto's record:

Torres: undefeated, came back to win a championship
Malignaggi: undefeated, came back to win a championship
Maussa: undefeated, came back to win a championship
Quintana: undefeated, came back to win a championship
Judah: came back to win a championship
Mosley: became THE welterweight champion after Cotto loss
N'dou: came back to win a championship
Not to forget he beat former champions like Cesar Bazan & Corley

There's also:
Clottey: likely to win a championship again

Now that's a proven track record. Cotto's never been afraid to fight anyone. I can't say the same for Calzaghe.

Last edited by HumanWindmill on Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Lack of Christmas spirit and goodwill to all men)

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It's sad to see that at this time of year, people still haven't got any christmas spirit about them yet.

Young_Towzer wrote:**Like it or not, Calzaghe proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that he was the best 168 lb fighter on the planet before he ventured up to Light-Heavyweight.
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Calzaghe beats Froch imo, however, Froch's record is miles better and has beat 50/50 opponents throughout his championship career. Just because Calzaghe was unbeaten, so was Sven Ottke but was Hagler? lol

Froch's record most certainly is not "miles better" than Calzaghe's. He's had a run of half a dozen fights which show his ambition, risk taking and set of stones blow Calzaghe's out of the water, but it's a simple fact that Calzaghe, before moving up, was the undisputed number one at Super-Middleweight. It's also a clear as crystal fact that Froch, thus far, hasn't done this. There's every chance he will, of course. But as he hasn't yet, there's simply no way his 168 lb exploits can match Calzaghe's.

As I said, Calzaghe beat seven or eight Super-Middleweight champions. Froch has beaten one, who was years over the hill. Now I'll accept that some of the belt holders Calzaghe beat were no great shakes, but let's be realistic about some of Froch's wins, too. Abraham simply isn't much kop at 168 lb, and judging by his recent performances, isn't going to accomplish a whole lot more after Froch's win over him (given that the "they did nothing after he beat them!" argument has been chucked at Calzaghe many times already, I think it's only fair we take the same stance for Froch, too). Taylor, likewise, has a win over Jeff Lacy (a total hype job, you assure us) on his ledger at Super-Middleweight and absolutely nothing else, save for knockout defeats to Froch and Abraham (as well as a catchweight loss to Pavlik). No doubting those guys' class at 160 lb, but essentially Froch is a Super-Middleweight, as was Calzaghe. And the Nottingham man just doesn't have the longevity, consistency or total domination of that weight class which Calzaghe had. And while it's not the be all and end all, we can't ignore that Froch lost to the best 168 lb fighter he's faced so far in Kessler, a man who Calzaghe soundly outpointed.

Listen, I rate Froch, think he's doing great things and, of course, I think there's a very real chance he could be above Calzaghe one day. But right now, to rank him the higher of the two is ridiculous.

And the Nottingham man just doesn't have the longevity, consistency or total domination of that weight class which Calzaghe had. And while it's not the be all and end all, we can't ignore that Froch lost to the best 168 lb fighter he's faced so far in Kessler, a man who Calzaghe soundly outpointed.
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Yawnnnnnn
Lost to Kessler but beat the better Dirrell, Pascal

His super middleweight record puts Calzaghe's to shame, longevity lol? it took him 9 year to fight a 50/50 fight, Froch's beat the much better, trust me. Name me 1 fighter from 1997 to 2006 apart from Lacy who was a challenge or a world class fighter? not one of them was. I agree Calzaghe is better but Ricky Burns could go and make 21 defences of his WBO super featherweight bauble against eastern europeans who are garbage, ie Calzaghe ffs!.

Problem for me is all JC has is "Umpteen defences", "Unbeaten" etc

But who did he beat that you sit back and go "Yup, his legacy was sealed from fighting the best"

Now i know Armstrong and co are a level or two above in terms of legacy, but the big big big factor we all look at when discussing their respective careers are who they fought and beat - the likes of SRR, Greb, Tunney etc all have a monumental amount of quality wins on their record...

JC quite simply doesn't have the name resume barring Kessler and BHop, save for those 2 he has absolutely jack **** on his record that warrants this "ATG" label.

Have always maintained that fighters careers should be assessed after they've been and gone. But if Froch were to say beat Ward, rematch Kessler and win and then go up and beat say BHop (convincingly) he'd quite easily in my mind rank above JC - by an absolute MILE as well. Heck, if he beats Ward (and then retires for arguements sake) he's above him. He's journeyed for big fights, has won those big fights and has taken on a better level of oppo than JC fought (WBO monotony comes to mind) in a much much shorter period.

Young_Towzer wrote:Yawnnnnnn
Lost to Kessler but beat the better Dirrell, Pascal

Dirrell better than Kessler? Heard it all now. Fought one of the most ridiculous spectacles I've ever seen against Froch and then put in a good performance (both in the ring and in his Oscars nomination at the end) against Abraham, who is distinctly average at 168 lb. And that outweighs Kessler's win over Froch (who you keep reminding us is the best of the bunch), three title reigns and WBC / WBA unification?

Alas, you're incapable of taking an objective view on the Froch / Calzaghe debate, that much is clear. I've repeatedly said that if Froch beats Ward and then Bute, I may well put him ahead of Calzaghe. Until then, he just has to be lower than him, which the general consensus seems to be.

Chris

Disagree on Bute, for me he's quite possibly the most overrated hype job in the 168lb division. Bute v Kessler should get it on for a shot at the winner, now call me silly but that makes perfect sense.

Would fancy Kessler to do a job on him, don't know what it is but i really really don't rate Bute.

Good thread that seems to be getting everyones grievances out in the open, I still dislike someone from school as he's a poo bum!

Calzaghe had a very good career, Froch is having a good career.

At the moment Calzaghe would rank higher as he has achieved more, he would also have beaten Froch were they to have actually got in the ring together.

Froch should be commended for travelling to fight the best, but if he was in a position where he had regular TV fights whilst selling out big venues in this country would he still be doing this?

He has had to take big fights because he has been trying to make a name for himself.

There is also the fact that the big names are happy to fight him, he is seen as beatable. Calzaghe was seen as a very hard nights work.

Now can we all just join hands and sing a lovely song together?

I still dislike someone from school as he's a poo bum!
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Well said Huw, getting such things out in the open is cathartic. With this in mind I hate Top Gear, Russell Brand, CJ off Eggheads and Adrian Chiles is starting to really get on my wires. Also being too skint to buy a new scooter is really beginning to grate with me.

I also really dislike reality TV and was massively disappointed by the hangover sequel. I do feel far better for sharing all that though.

coxy0001 wrote:Chris

Disagree on Bute, for me he's quite possibly the most overrated hype job in the 168lb division. Bute v Kessler should get it on for a shot at the winner, now call me silly but that makes perfect sense.

Would fancy Kessler to do a job on him, don't know what it is but i really really don't rate Bute.

Don't get me wrong, Coxy. I'm not sold on Bute, either, just as many weren't sold on Lacy before he fought Calzaghe. But regardless of what we think of him, the fact is that Bute remains a major player in the Super-Middleweight scene and, until Froch (and anyone else, for that matter) beats him, nobody can say that they've cleaned out the division and established superiority over it as conclusively as Calzaghe did.

I like your call on Kessler-Bute, mind you, although I reckon Kessler will take one more tune-up fight and will then be taking on the winner of Froch-Ward, rather than venturing over to Canada to take on ol' Lucien.

Think Lucien may become the Sven Ottke of the SM division. Fighting no-one of any real pedigree, rarely venturing outside his own front door, yet always used as a stick to beat claimants of the "I'm the best SM in the World" title.

Maybe Lucien could move up to 175 then he and Pascal can fight each other to their heart's content whilst leaving the SM crown to someone prepared to put it on the line against all comers.

rowley wrote:I still dislike someone from school as he's a poo bum!
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Well said Huw, getting such things out in the open is cathartic. With this in mind I hate Top Gear, Russell Brand, CJ off Eggheads and Adrian Chiles is starting to really get on my wires. Also being too skint to buy a new scooter is really beginning to grate with me.

I also really dislike reality TV and was massively disappointed by the hangover sequel. I do feel far better for sharing all that though.

Adrian Chiles has to be the most miserable man in the world, he is the only person that would have a depressed look and a dull voice whilst explaining that Megan Fox and Angelina Jolie are giving him a blowie.

huw wrote:

rowley wrote:I still dislike someone from school as he's a poo bum!
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Well said Huw, getting such things out in the open is cathartic. With this in mind I hate Top Gear, Russell Brand, CJ off Eggheads and Adrian Chiles is starting to really get on my wires. Also being too skint to buy a new scooter is really beginning to grate with me.

I also really dislike reality TV and was massively disappointed by the hangover sequel. I do feel far better for sharing all that though.

Adrian Chiles has to be the most miserable man in the world, he is the only person that would have a depressed look and a dull voice whilst explaining that Megan Fox and Angelina Jolie are giving him a blowie.

Nope, Jack Dee would be the same. Chiles suffers from the unique ability to say cheery things yet make them sound incredibly depressing. He doesn't have a mournful expression yet if you were blind you'd think he was suffering the trials of Job.

DAVE667 wrote:

huw wrote:

rowley wrote:I still dislike someone from school as he's a poo bum!
___________________________________________________________

Well said Huw, getting such things out in the open is cathartic. With this in mind I hate Top Gear, Russell Brand, CJ off Eggheads and Adrian Chiles is starting to really get on my wires. Also being too skint to buy a new scooter is really beginning to grate with me.

I also really dislike reality TV and was massively disappointed by the hangover sequel. I do feel far better for sharing all that though.

Adrian Chiles has to be the most miserable man in the world, he is the only person that would have a depressed look and a dull voice whilst explaining that Megan Fox and Angelina Jolie are giving him a blowie.

Nope, Jack Dee would be the same. Chiles suffers from the unique ability to say cheery things yet make them sound incredibly depressing. He doesn't have a mournful expression yet if you were blind you'd think he was suffering the trials of Job.

I think Jack Dee would at least give you a thumbs up and a nod though.

Julian Clary might also disapprove, mind.

HumanWindmill wrote:Julian Clary might also disapprove, mind.

"It's very nice girls but I'm put off by the fact your lipstick clashes horribly with my sparkling lycra underwear"

NB you can swap the words "Julian Clary" with "TRUSSMAN"

DAVE667 wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Julian Clary might also disapprove, mind.

"It's very nice girls but I'm put off by the fact your lipstick clashes horribly with my sparkling lycra underwear"

NB you can swap the words "Julian Clary" with "TRUSSMAN"

Hit and run hey DAVE....Not big and clever....

Get some self-respect, you're not a good representative of your fellow Brits kiddo....

Guess you feel threatened by us Americans though...After all we did save your boys in WW2....

TRUSSY

*Thought I'd save our favourite all-American beefster the aggro of replying, you see.*

Cheers Chris, you're a real stand up guy...are you sure you're not American?

Sorry, is that a cheap pop at you?

Dave, Chris, top stuff.

Made me chuckle, and I dare say that our Bostonian cousin will see the funny side, also.

Three of you ganging up on Truss, get yourself a few more guys it might be a fair fight.

DAVE667 wrote:Cheers Chris, you're a real stand up guy...are you sure you're not American?

Sorry, is that a cheap pop at you?

I can only dream, mate! Will let you off for that cheap pop as I'm sure you'll be getting plenty of them from the missus over the next few months!

So just out of interest and to get this thread back to somewhere near topic, who are the top 10 British fighters?

I've already warned her about this and said that any "Eeeh, your belly's getting in the way of the TV, love" comments are in lieu of the inevitable, "I hate you!" comments she'll be screaming at me at various points during the next few...well, YEARS really!

Ted Kid Lewis, Wilde, Lennox Lewis, Welsh, Buchanan, Calzaghe, Moran, Driscoll, Berg and one of Hamed, Lynch, Conteh or Turpin, depending on mood. Or something like that, mckay.

mckay1402 wrote:So just out of interest and to get this thread back to somewhere near topic, who are the top 10 British fighters?

Mc for me the top ten would read something like this.

Wilde
Lewis (Ted)
Lennox
Welsh
Driscoll
Buchanan
Calzaghe
Moran
Hamed
Lynch

Don't include Fitz or Mclarnin and could quibble over the places but am relatively happy with the names in there.

mckay1402 wrote:So just out of interest and to get this thread back to somewhere near topic, who are the top 10 British fighters?

As you asked, mckay, I'd go with 1) Ted 'Kid' Lewis 2) Jimmy Wilde 3) Lennox Lewis 4) Ken Buchanan 5) Freddie Welsh 6) Jack 'Kid' Berg 7) Joe Calzaghe 8.) Jim Driscoll 9) Benny Lynch 10) Owen Moran. Cheers.

The genius of PBF wrote:Mayweather wont fight Pacquiao because Pacquiao doesn't want to take the test!!!

Even though Manny agreed to one of MWs test demands only for him to then tell him it was too late...



That drug thing is a load of Tosh, FMJ just knows how much $ his 0 is worth and does not want to risk loosing it and against Manny there is a risk he might.

Tunes

This has already gone off thread once and been dragged back on topic by posters who aren't obsessed 18 year olds.

Please don't make the sensible ones here have to do the same again, ta.

There's an article on the BBC where Froch says he can become a legend. Not wishing to disparage Froch and his acheivements of late but I think he's someway short of "legend" status and probably always will be.

Sadly "legend" is a much overused term and seems to be reserved solely for the people who go out on Friday night, drinks several pints of lager then stick a traffic cone on their heads.

"Hey, Gaz, you're a LEGEND mate!"

No, he's a tool!

Froch may well come top of many people's boxing lists but I fear it will only be on the "Criminally overlooked" or "Deserved better" lists that will be compiled in years to come.

Froch may well come top of many people's boxing lists but I fear it will only be on the "Criminally overlooked" or "Deserved better" lists that will be compiled in years to come.
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I don't, 2 time WBC world champ, has been in a big competition that he may well win, as beaten the best, doubt that.

I agree with you there tunes

Alas, you're incapable of taking an objective view on the Froch / Calzaghe debate, that much is clear. I've repeatedly said that if Froch beats Ward and then Bute, I may well put him ahead of Calzaghe. Until then, he just has to be lower than him, which the general consensus seems to be.
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I'm incapable? lol do us a favour, Dirrell and Pascal would both school Kessler imo, all he is, is a european one dimensional fighter who Pascal would destroy, Froch would of got the nod over here for their even fight. Bute? do me a favour he has to fight someone first, the guy's a joke. How on earth can you be rated number 1 when you haven't beat anybody in the same league as Dirrel, Pascal, Taylor, Kessler, Abraham, Ward? it's laughable

Young_Towzer wrote:Alas, you're incapable of taking an objective view on the Froch / Calzaghe debate, that much is clear. I've repeatedly said that if Froch beats Ward and then Bute, I may well put him ahead of Calzaghe. Until then, he just has to be lower than him, which the general consensus seems to be.
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I'm incapable? lol do us a favour, Dirrell and Pascal would both school Kessler imo, all he is, is a european one dimensional fighter who Pascal would destroy, Froch would of got the nod over here for their even fight. Bute? do me a favour he has to fight someone first, the guy's a joke. How on earth can you be rated number 1 when you haven't beat anybody in the same league as Dirrel, Pascal, Taylor, Kessler, Abraham, Ward? it's laughable

Your 'lols' aside, I'd like to point out that Froch's fight with Kessler didn't happen in England, so there's no point speculating what might have been there. Froch was not hard done by with that decision either, and if he's lost to a "one dimensional fighter" then it doesn't say much for his aspirations to be above Calzaghe, who never lost to any fighter regardless of how many dimensions they did or didn't have (Kessler included).

As I said above, I'm not sold on Bute, either. But the fact remains that he's a major player in the 168 lb scene and holds one of the major titles. Calzaghe, by hook or crook, took care of all the Bute-type figures who existed during his Super-Middleweight tenure. Thus far, Froch hasn't. Simple as that.

You seem to be using the "would haves" and "in my opinions" a lot. Forget them for just one second and look at the cold hard facts. Calzaghe proved beyond any doubt that he was the best Super-Middleweight in the world before moving up. Froch hasn't done this - yet. Calzaghe, at some stage, unified all four of the major belts. Froch hasn't done this - yet. Calzaghe soundly outpointed Kessler, who Froch lost to.

Froch MIGHT go on to surpass Calzaghe. As of now, he simply hasn't. To argue otherwise is ridiculous.