6N 2017: Scotland vs Wales, 25th Feb

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Scotland vs Wales


Date: Saturday 25th February 2017
Venue: BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick Off: 2:25pm
Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
TV Coverage: Live on BBC

Weather Update


Teams

Scotland

1. Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors)
2. Faiser Brown (Glasgow Warriors)
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors)
4. Richie Gray (Toulouse)
5. Johnny Gray (Glasgow Warriors)
6. John Barclay (C) (Scarlets)
7. John Hardie (Edinburgh)
8. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors)

9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors)
10. Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors)
11. Tim Visser (Harlequins)
12. Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors)
13. Huw Jones (Stormers)
14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors)
15. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)

Replacements

16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh)
17 Allan Dell (Edinburgh)
18 Simon Berghan (Edinburgh)
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors)
20 Hamish Watson (Edinburgh)
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)
22 Duncan Weir (Edinburgh)
23 Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors)


Wales

1 Rob Evans (Scarlets)
2 Ken Owens (Scarlets)
3 Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs)
4 Jake Ball (Scarlets)
5 Alun Wyn Jones (C) (Ospreys)
6 Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues)
7 Justin Tipuric (Ospreys)
8 Ross Moriarty (Gloucester)

9 Rhys Webb (Ospreys)
10 Dan Biggar (Ospreys)
11 Liam Williams (Scarlets)
12 Scott Williams (Scarlets)
13 Jonathan Davies (Scarlets)
14 George North (Northampton)
15 Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon)

Replacements

16 Scott Baldwin (Ospreys)
17 Nicky Smith (Ospreys)
18 Samson Lee (Scarlets)
19 Luke Charteris (Bath)
20 Taulupe Faletau (Dragons)
21 Gareth Davies (Scarlets)
22 Sam Davies (Ospreys)
23 Jamie Roberts (Harlequins)

exile jack wrote:

cascough wrote:

exile jack wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I really can't fathom why some Welsh fans wouldn't pick Biggar - he's the one player I don't want to see on the Wales team sheet.

He is an absolute talisman of the Wales team and always plays well against Scotland.  His kicking game causes us a lot of trouble and he physically drives the team on when they need it.

He says himself he's not a 20 linebreaks a game type of player but he brings so much to this Wales team.

I wouldn't pick Biggar because:
-good sides make him kick to their back 3's who then punish Wales on the counter-attack.As Scotland now have a back 3 as good as any we could be in difficulty often on Saturday;
-he is too slow over the first 5 metres(but see below);
-the most recent rugby stats i've seen suggest he is the Welsh player missing most tackles.

In fairness to Dan B he is not responsible for the overall pace and rhythm of the Welsh side as coached currently,the general decline of Welsh 3/4 play,nor the often slow ball presented to him by the Welsh pack and the 9(who more often than not takes the one-step before passing which allows the best international defences too much time).Perhaps this is the reason Dan B stands too deep.Another statistic doing the rounds concerns the 40+ times Wales have been in the 5m zone of their opposition and scored no tries.That does seem to suggest some failing on behalf of the 10.

Can't deny Biggar's commitment though the issue he had with chopsing to referees earlier in his carrer shows signs of returning.I'll be interested to see which of Russell and Biggar runs their 3/4 line best on Saturday,particularly the variety of passing.

They are totally different players. Russell is a far better distributor and runner but he makes bad decisions. Biggar is a much more limited player but I tend to think he consistently gets the best out of his skills and is a good asset to Wales. Russell's biggest problem is likely to be that he is not going to get much front foot ball. He's going to struggle as a result of that, especially with Laidlaw missing who would have really helped in managing the game.

Biggar might not be a mercurial talent, but If Wales can get success running through Scotland as they tried to do to England last week then he is good enough.

Personally I'd rather have Biggar. You can build a gameplan around someone like him. Russell strikes me as a luxury player.

The Welsh gameplan is an epic thread in its own right,but i'd never hold Dan B primarily responsible for it.

By luxury do you mean players like: Giteau,Foley,Carter,Cruden,Barrett,Sexton,Lopez,Fernandes,Jackson,Ford,Farrell? Glasgow's reinvigoration of the Pro12 owes a lot to the gameplan that Russell drives under Townsend's coaching direction.

There's one or two in that list I'd consider luxury players, but for the most part what sets them apart from Russell is having rock solid basics and something between the ears.

Scottrf wrote:Yet my post gets deleted for calling some of the Irish posters oversensitive...

Irony.

Scottrf wrote:Yet my post gets deleted for calling some of the Irish posters oversensitive...

Well obviously you can't type blatant lies

George Carlin wrote:I would like Scotland to thoroughly hammer the sheepshaggers. 

If Wales start booting the ball away aimlessly, then a win is definitely possible. 

Hmm. That first sentence came out slightly more strongly than I intended. 

I'd already pressed 'post' though, so, you know, too late.

And I can't wait to see the thousands of Scots who voted to remain part of the UK singing about the battle of Bannockburn

One change for Wales.....North in for Cuthbert.

Which is a shame.

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/north-returns-for-wales-against-scotland/

Ahhh, North on his gammy leg. I reckon Seymour can skin him.

As scary a team as could be picked for Wales other than Faletau. I was not looking forward to Faletau starting at 8 with Moriarty at 6 against a lightweight Scots backrow.

Francis has been in excellent form and we may need Reid to start as Dell is more dynamic/Lee is out of form. If Scotland can get parity in the scrum and control the tempo (i.e. move that team around), we should win.

Quick note: North surely should take the summer off and not go near the Lions. As soon as the 6 Nations ends (if he is determined to play), he needs to call it a day until September. His body is breaking down and 5 months off will do him a world of good. Northampton are not going anywhere this season and if Wales lose this, they are not competing to win the 6 Nations.

A little harsh on Cory Hill maybe, though clearly Charteris is usually helpful at lineout defence etc.

Otherwise the squad is as expected for me.

Hazel Sapling wrote:As scary a team as could be picked for Wales other than Faletau. I was not looking forward to Faletau starting at 8 with Moriarty at 6 against a lightweight Scots backrow.

Francis has been in excellent form and we may need Reid to start as Dell is more dynamic/Lee is out of form. If Scotland can get parity in the scrum and control the tempo (i.e. move that team around), we should win.

Quick note: North surely should take the summer off and not go near the Lions. As soon as the 6 Nations ends (if he is determined to play), he needs to call it a day until September. His body is breaking down and 5 months off will do him a world of good. Northampton are not going anywhere this season and if Wales lose this, they are not competing to win the 6 Nations.

His body is hardly 'breaking down' - he had a dead leg that he couldn't shake off. I don't think any 6 Nations team considers any 6 nations game a 'dead rubber' anyway.

IanBru wrote:Ahhh, North on his gammy leg. I reckon Seymour can skin him.

We should target him, just like we targeted Connor Murray.....

I have a horrible feeling about this weekend actually. I can feel a drubbing coming along.

No targeting of North, Saints need him.

This game I'm struggling with in the prediction league but injuries are making me edge towards Wales.

That is a strong Wales team with good impact off the bench - I'm worried!

I'm glad they left cuthbert off the bench , not because I don't rate him but the lad needs to get his confidence back . This is why we need the A side even tho we can't get anyone to play us. Scotland my second team so good luck Saturday

funnyExiledScot wrote:

IanBru wrote:Ahhh, North on his gammy leg. I reckon Seymour can skin him.

We should target him, just like we targeted Connor Murray.....

We need to target the outside channels so North could find himself doing a fair bit of defending. I'm actually worried for the boy, imagine if he ends up tackling Gordy Reid with his face! Hopefully everyone on both teams comes away from the match with no injuries or head knocks!

RDW_Scotland wrote:That is a strong Wales team with good impact off the bench - I'm worried!

The bench troubles me most of all. I don't fancy Charteris and Faletau coming off the bench on the hour mark, and Sam Davies offers them a Plan B if needed as well.

Their pack is more powerful than ours and their backline is solid. I think we'll struggle here.

No surprises in the team announcement. Faletau stays on the bench and Charteris included as lock cover

RDW_Scotland wrote:That is a strong Wales team with good impact off the bench - I'm worried!

If there's as many errors as there was against france then yep, I'm worried too. Think Scotland can control this game better though, Wales play in a more structured way to France so it should be less chaotic. Although I think a little chaos id just what Scotland need to try and create, it will be a great way to open up the game and take the focus off set piece.

I would prefer Ashley Beck on the bench instead of Jamie Roberts. He was very good against Munster for the Ospreys last Saturday.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:That is a strong Wales team with good impact off the bench - I'm worried!

The bench troubles me most of all. I don't fancy Charteris and Faletau coming off the bench on the hour mark, and Sam Davies offers them a Plan B if needed as well.

Their pack is more powerful than ours and their backline is solid. I think we'll struggle here.

Agreed on all points except the last one - these are fantastic Welsh players almost to a man, but their tactical approach has been rightly questioned in the last six months. Yes Wales are attempting to play a more open game, but it's being executed with so little confidence that I can see Scotland winning the match four tries to two (it'll still be close because of Biggar's kicking).

If we also factor in having Howley as coach, I'm quietly confident. I'm reminded of what an aide to Robert E Lee said after McClellan's Union army failed to take advantage of its tactical victory at the Battle of Antietam and lost the opportunity to destroy the Confederate army: "There was a single item in our advantage but it was an important one. General McClellan had brought superior forces to Antietam, but he had also brought himself."

munkian wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:As scary a team as could be picked for Wales other than Faletau. I was not looking forward to Faletau starting at 8 with Moriarty at 6 against a lightweight Scots backrow.

Francis has been in excellent form and we may need Reid to start as Dell is more dynamic/Lee is out of form. If Scotland can get parity in the scrum and control the tempo (i.e. move that team around), we should win.

Quick note: North surely should take the summer off and not go near the Lions. As soon as the 6 Nations ends (if he is determined to play), he needs to call it a day until September. His body is breaking down and 5 months off will do him a world of good. Northampton are not going anywhere this season and if Wales lose this, they are not competing to win the 6 Nations.

His body is hardly 'breaking down' - he had a dead leg that he couldn't shake off. I don't think any 6 Nations team considers any 6 nations game a 'dead rubber' anyway.

Why did he miss the England game? I assume a head knock?

Now is the only chance he will have until next summer to take a proper break especially if he goes on the Lions (which with Gatland, he will). He has not been the same devastating player as he used to be even if he still is dangerous and able to score from anywhere.

Love the Robert E Lee quote. By all accounts a reluctant secessionist along with Stonewall. The American Civil War was not solely about slavery as it is nowadays.

IanBru wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:That is a strong Wales team with good impact off the bench - I'm worried!

The bench troubles me most of all. I don't fancy Charteris and Faletau coming off the bench on the hour mark, and Sam Davies offers them a Plan B if needed as well.

Their pack is more powerful than ours and their backline is solid. I think we'll struggle here.

Agreed on all points except the last one - these are fantastic Welsh players almost to a man, but their tactical approach has been rightly questioned in the last six months. Yes Wales are attempting to play a more open game, but it's being executed with so little confidence that I can see Scotland winning the match four tries to two (it'll still be close because of Biggar's kicking).

If we also factor in having Howley as coach, I'm quietly confident. I'm reminded of what an aide to Robert E Lee said after McClellan's Union army failed to take advantage of its tactical victory at the Battle of Antietam and lost the opportunity to destroy the Confederate army: "There was a single item in our advantage but it was an important one. General McClellan had brought superior forces to Antietam, but he had also brought himself."

Well I do hope you're right. I don't fear the Welsh backs particularly, but I do fear their pack. Samson Lee can't get a start, which tells you something about the depth they have. We will sorely miss the Nel/Ford/Dickinson combination, and Strauss at number 8.

Still, we have plenty of skill in the backs to cause them problems. It's just a case of whether we'll get enough territory and ball to put that to good use.

North wants to manage his own career and wont take an extended break unless his doctors say it's necessary. He's made clear that all the journalists and social media users trying to manage his career are an irrelevance.

The Welsh front row is not a patch on the French one. I'm sorry, but that pack is the best in the 6N and so I feel we are not going to get a drubbing in the scrums like we did last week.

The only problem we might have his any 50/50 calls in the scrum will go to Wales because the ref will have preconceived ideas that we're Poopie at scrummaging.

At the breakdown, Warbuton will need smashing out the way.

Quick ball, out to the backs and we'll do enough damage to cause a few problems.

Scotland I think have the advantage in the backline in open play, they are a side that are used to a bit of chaos where as Wales are more structured in many ways. I reckon they will be looking to choke Scotland's backline and make the forwards work hard so they can then pounce in the final 20 mins or so. The weather has finally turned on us too though o it may be a stodgey, slow and frustrating affair.



Considering all the injuries/elements, I am going for this team...

Reid
Ford
Fagerson
R Gray
J Gray VC
Barclay C
Watson
Wilson
Pyrgos
Russell
Seymour
Dunbar
Scott
Maitland
Hogg

Brown
Allan
Berghan
Swinson
CDP
Price
Weir
Jones

Wales' kicking game worries me too - Biggar is one of the best in the business at the kick-chase and Davies' grubber kicks are a real pain in the hoop to deal with.

Maitland being fit would be a big boost - for a man so tall Visser is useless in the air.

international198 wrote:I would prefer Ashley Beck on the bench instead of Jamie Roberts. He was very good against Munster for the Ospreys last Saturday.

For me he has been the form Welsh centre all season. Why he gets ignored is beyond me.

Hazel Sapling wrote:

munkian wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:As scary a team as could be picked for Wales other than Faletau. I was not looking forward to Faletau starting at 8 with Moriarty at 6 against a lightweight Scots backrow.

Francis has been in excellent form and we may need Reid to start as Dell is more dynamic/Lee is out of form. If Scotland can get parity in the scrum and control the tempo (i.e. move that team around), we should win.

Quick note: North surely should take the summer off and not go near the Lions. As soon as the 6 Nations ends (if he is determined to play), he needs to call it a day until September. His body is breaking down and 5 months off will do him a world of good. Northampton are not going anywhere this season and if Wales lose this, they are not competing to win the 6 Nations.

His body is hardly 'breaking down' - he had a dead leg that he couldn't shake off. I don't think any 6 Nations team considers any 6 nations game a 'dead rubber' anyway.

Why did he miss the England game? I assume a head knock?

Now is the only chance he will have until next summer to take a proper break especially if he goes on the Lions (which with Gatland, he will). He has not been the same devastating player as he used to be even if he still is dangerous and able to score from anywhere.

Love the Robert E Lee quote. By all accounts a reluctant secessionist along with Stonewall. The American Civil War was not solely about slavery as it is nowadays.

You assume wrong - he picked up a dead leg against Italy but still managed to run in that 60m try.

Maybe it's just me, but is anyone else looking forward to the epic duel between Watson and Moriarty? I really wish Tyrone Holmes still had prospects of a Scotland call-up.

IanBru wrote:Maybe it's just me, but is anyone else looking forward to the epic duel between Watson and Moriarty? I really wish Tyrone Holmes still had prospects of a Scotland call-up.

Is Doyle the ref for this?

Shots fired by Gordie Reid

Asked how he would describe the Welsh scrummaging style, he replied: "Erm, interesting. Yeah, interesting.

"We always look to be legal and do everything by the book. It's just the Scottish way. We don't look to take shortcuts - we grit our teeth and do things the hard way.

"Is that the wrong thing to do when you compare it to some of the methods used by other sides? Not really. We just need to work a bit harder. If there is a problem, we'll get there."

I'd be disappointed if we were in fact trying to scrummaging legally given every other team will be doing all they can to gain an advantage - legal or otherwise!

If that is the case, then it means we have a sh!t forwards coach.

Ah....Jonathan Humphreys.

There we are then.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Shots fired by Gordie Reid

Asked how he would describe the Welsh scrummaging style, he replied: "Erm, interesting. Yeah, interesting.

"We always look to be legal and do everything by the book. It's just the Scottish way. We don't look to take shortcuts - we grit our teeth and do things the hard way.

"Is that the wrong thing to do when you compare it to some of the methods used by other sides? Not really. We just need to work a bit harder. If there is a problem, we'll get there."

I'd be disappointed if we were in fact trying to scrummaging legally given every other team will be doing all they can to gain an advantage - legal or otherwise!

Surprising to hear mind games coming from Gordy Reid. I didn't think he had it in him!!

Certainly looked to be doing things the hard way vs France.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Shots fired by Gordie Reid

Asked how he would describe the Welsh scrummaging style, he replied: "Erm, interesting. Yeah, interesting.

"We always look to be legal and do everything by the book. It's just the Scottish way. We don't look to take shortcuts - we grit our teeth and do things the hard way.

"Is that the wrong thing to do when you compare it to some of the methods used by other sides? Not really. We just need to work a bit harder. If there is a problem, we'll get there."

I'd be disappointed if we were in fact trying to scrummaging legally given every other team will be doing all they can to gain an advantage - legal or otherwise!

Well that certainly explains all the yellows and the red you got against us, what a load of cack

munkian wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Shots fired by Gordie Reid

Asked how he would describe the Welsh scrummaging style, he replied: "Erm, interesting. Yeah, interesting.

"We always look to be legal and do everything by the book. It's just the Scottish way. We don't look to take shortcuts - we grit our teeth and do things the hard way.

"Is that the wrong thing to do when you compare it to some of the methods used by other sides? Not really. We just need to work a bit harder. If there is a problem, we'll get there."

I'd be disappointed if we were in fact trying to scrummaging legally given every other team will be doing all they can to gain an advantage - legal or otherwise!

Well that certainly explains all the yellows and the red you got against us, what a load of cack  

In this instance he was specifically referring to the scrums.

munkian wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Shots fired by Gordie Reid

Asked how he would describe the Welsh scrummaging style, he replied: "Erm, interesting. Yeah, interesting.

"We always look to be legal and do everything by the book. It's just the Scottish way. We don't look to take shortcuts - we grit our teeth and do things the hard way.

"Is that the wrong thing to do when you compare it to some of the methods used by other sides? Not really. We just need to work a bit harder. If there is a problem, we'll get there."

I'd be disappointed if we were in fact trying to scrummaging legally given every other team will be doing all they can to gain an advantage - legal or otherwise!

Well that certainly explains all the yellows and the red you got against us, what a load of cack  

I think in this instance it is quite right.

Our props are very young and not experienced enough to be able to effecively get away with the dark arts in scrum. They play far to legal - but in time they will learn.

I remember the game against Wales a few years ago, where we were pinged off the park by the ref for every infraction and the Welsh prop then boasted about how they hook winked the ref and got away with it

HOWEVER - this is how the game is played and how we should learn

In fact, when we had Nel played - we did exactly the same thing. You play the ref, get away with it - (so please note this is not against Wales or other teams, more against our props in being too naive)

Our props need to learn the game more and

TEAM TALK DONE

Wonder if they'll have looked at the scrum feeds from Fra vs Sco last weekend? That was an absolute joke

4 players registered to clubs outside Wales in the starting line-up and 3 more on the bench (Halfpenny, North, Francis, Moriarty, Charteris, Faletau, Roberts).

Is Gatland's law dead? Or just suspended while Gatland is with the Lions?

munkian wrote:TEAM TALK DONE

I wouldn't be surprised if that's all Hapless Howley has to say.

robbo277 wrote:4 players registered to clubs outside Wales in the starting line-up and 3 more on the bench (Halfpenny, North, Francis, Moriarty, Charteris, Faletau, Roberts).

Is Gatland's law dead? Or just suspended while Gatland is with the Lions?

I think you'll find that there are a number of caveats and loop holes to Gatland's Law to ensure that it's always strictly enforced....

robbo277 wrote:4 players registered to clubs outside Wales in the starting line-up and 3 more on the bench (Halfpenny, North, Francis, Moriarty, Charteris, Faletau, Roberts).

Is Gatland's law dead? Or just suspended while Gatland is with the Lions?

Not sure how it works exactly, but I know that Francis and Moriaty are exempt because they were already in England when the law came in. I believe though that if they were to move club they would need to do so to a club in Wales, otherwise they are then classed as one of the wildcards.

There's some other weird and wonderful caveats too but can't remember them. Something ridiculous about a Welsh club not being able to match a non-welsh club's offer so missing out on the signing of a welsh player but that not counting! Or something similar. Bizarre!

Have Moriarty, Halfpenny and Francis all decided to move back to Wales next season? There was talk around all 3 at one point or another from my faulty memory.

If it was enforced with only 4 available, who makes it? I would think Halfpenny, Francis, Moriarty and Faletau/North fighting it out for the last spot.

Hazel Sapling wrote:Have Moriarty, Halfpenny and Francis all decided to move back to Wales next season? There was talk around all 3 at one point or another from my faulty memory.

If it was enforced with only 4 available, who makes it? I would think Halfpenny, Francis, Moriarty and Faletau/North fighting it out for the last spot.

I think Halfpenny is exempt for some reason. Possibly down to the timing of his move. Same with Francis. As I said before, there are so many caveats it'll always be enforced.

Griff wrote:

robbo277 wrote:4 players registered to clubs outside Wales in the starting line-up and 3 more on the bench (Halfpenny, North, Francis, Moriarty, Charteris, Faletau, Roberts).

Is Gatland's law dead? Or just suspended while Gatland is with the Lions?

Not sure how it works exactly, but I know that Francis and Moriaty are exempt because they were already in England when the law came in.  I believe though that if they were to move club they would need to do so to a club in Wales, otherwise they are then classed as one of the wildcards.  

There's some other weird and wonderful caveats too but can't remember them.  Something ridiculous about a Welsh club not being able to match a non-welsh club's offer so missing out on the signing of a welsh player but that not counting!  Or something similar.  Bizarre!

Yeah, I don't quite know all the rules, but I knew it was meant to be 3 and there are 7 in the squad, so was just curious really.

Another rule is you have to have had a serious offer from a Welsh club. I think that's why Charteris doesn't count.

Scottrf wrote:Another rule is you have to have had a serious offer from a Welsh club. I think that's why Charteris doesn't count.

Do the WRU not deem offers from the Dragons to be "serious offers"?? Wouldn't surprise me.

I actually think it's a good rule, but the caveats make it all rather pointless.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Another rule is you have to have had a serious offer from a Welsh club. I think that's why Charteris doesn't count.

Do the WRU not deem offers from the Dragons to be "serious offers"?? Wouldn't surprise me.

I actually think it's a good rule, but the caveats make it all rather pointless.

I think the money was so much lower as to not be competitive. But this is from memory of something I heard long ago, not sure of accuracy.

I said on the France thread that we are getting mullered in the scrum because the other sides we've faced so far have cheated while we havn't!

Needs to be addressed!