Ireland v Argentina 25th Nov 2017 5:30 Aviva

by Collapse2005 Thu 23 Nov 2017, 1:42 pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/adam-byrne-set-for-ireland-debut-against-argentina-1.3301491

Adam Byrne set to earn his debut. Byrne would thus become the 49th new cap and 94th player used by Schmidt in his five years at the helm. Hmmm, Schmidt doesn't give youth a chance? Yahoo

Head to head:

16 Games
Wins 10
Losses 6

If Ireland beat Argentina they will have defeated every tier 1 team in the last two years (except Wales who we only drew with and lost to).

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 77 caps
14. Adam Byrne (UCD/Leinster)*
13. Chris Farrell (Young Munster/Munster) 1 cap
12. Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 1 cap
11. Jacob Stockdale (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 3 caps
10. Johnny Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster) 67 caps
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 58 caps

1.Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 72 caps
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 105 caps Captain
3. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 18 caps
4. James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 3 caps
5. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 33 caps
6. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 41 caps
7. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster) 50 caps
8. CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 17 caps

Replacements
16. James Tracy (UCD/Leinster) 5 caps
17. Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 21 caps
18. John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 10 caps
19. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 52 caps
20. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster) 18 caps
21. Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 5 caps
22. Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster) 6 caps
23. Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 5 caps

by SecretFly Thu 23 Nov 2017, 1:54 pm

Thanks for getting a forward thinking thread started there, Collapse. It might get people back on track because no matter what thread you pop into, there's bickering going on.... (cough Ulster, England, Wales... Whistle

)

Anyway.... good to see Byrne being dropped in to see what he's made of. It'll give him confidence when he might have thought he was going to be just an observer for the three weeks.

If they try to spread us and run us into the ground like last time, will it work? I doubt it as both they and we were entering that game under different circumstances and things just imploded on us as per usual at the very wrong time...again.

Like I said in another post - if we have the taking of them this time then nothing personal at all but I hope we put them to the sword ruthlessly for the full 80. We just have to get over ourselves in Ireland in the context of just doing enough coz we don't want to be overly mean. If we have it to do a SA on them then let's do it - for our own confidence as a side and for our own development of a more ruthless gameplan

by BamBam Thu 23 Nov 2017, 1:55 pm

Henshaw injured, Farrell in

Ireland team v Argentina: R Kearney; A Byrne, C Farrell, B Aki, J Stockdale; J Sexton, C Murray; C Healy, R Best (capt), T Furlong; J Ryan; I Henderson, P O'Mahony, S O'Brien, CJ Stander.

Replacements: J Tracy, D Kilcoyne, J Ryan, D Toner, R Ruddock, L McGrath, I Keatley, A Conway.

by SecretFly Thu 23 Nov 2017, 1:57 pm

Toner on the bench...he'll be glad of a breather.

by theslosty Thu 23 Nov 2017, 2:04 pm

The back row area is very competitive but nonetheless this series has been a missed opportunity for Conan. I like that team otherwise.

by carpet baboon Thu 23 Nov 2017, 2:49 pm

Personally I would have Choo Choo Stu at 12 and move Bundi to 13.
Farrell just doesn't fill me with confidence

by Pete330v2 Thu 23 Nov 2017, 3:55 pm

McCloskey will never be forgiven for attempting an offload that made Daverage look bad.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 23 Nov 2017, 4:05 pm

Really happy to see Byrne get a go. If he can do what he has been doing for Leinster, he will be a real weapon for this Irish team. Very effective under the high ball and puts all sorts of pressure on the opposition. Hopefully Schmidt can help him with his poor positioning in defence. And Ryan as well, great to see him trusted with a start at such a young age.

Farrell is extremely lucky to be the starting 13 for this game, and Conan must feel extremely hard done by given that he has been the best 8 in Ireland for the past year. POM/Stander both fortunate to start over Ruddock/Conan.

by Maine man Thu 23 Nov 2017, 5:23 pm

Farnell, wtf? Is he related to Andy? (joke) Would like to have seen Conan play but glad to see Byrne get a run out.

by SecretFly Thu 23 Nov 2017, 5:45 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:McCloskey will never be forgiven for attempting an offload that made Daverage look bad.

Oh come on Pete...at least Davey Kearney's found a player's hands .... not one of ours but that's only a technicality.

by mikey_dragon Thu 23 Nov 2017, 7:39 pm

If Ireland beat Argentina they will have defeated every tier 1 team in the last two years (except Wales who we only drew with and lost to).

by **profitius** Thu 23 Nov 2017, 9:38 pm

With Farrell and Byrne starting, I'd say the Argues might fancy their chances of scoring a few tries. I don't think either of them deserves to be there.

I'm happy to see James Ryan get a start. He is oozing with talent but he does seem to pick up a lot of knocks. Himself and Stockdale really boost the overall talent of the squad with the likes of Aki, Sweetnam, Porter, Conway, McCloskey etc boosting the depth.

It's a big game for Tracy. If he doesn't throw well in this game he might not be seen for a while. Herring, while lacking physicality is a decent thrower at least. I think Niall Scannell is comfortable ahead of those two and will challenge Best in the next year or so. Speaking of Best, we're lucky to have him!

Ireland being 15pt favourites is a bit extreme given the backline. It should be a close enough game I'd say. I'd say they'll try using the high ball to Adam Byrne a lot but I hope they don't overdo it. The Argentines will be expecting it.

by **profitius** Thu 23 Nov 2017, 9:40 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
If Ireland beat Argentina they will have defeated every tier 1 team in the last two years (except Wales who we only drew with and lost to).

Gatland gets the better of Schmidt again!

by Geen sport voor watjes Thu 23 Nov 2017, 11:17 pm

It will take a monumental effort from Argentina to come within an ass’s roar of Ireland. They are a busted flush at the moment. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a tad deluded. Ireland should beat them easily.

by mikey_dragon Thu 23 Nov 2017, 11:19 pm

profitius wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
If Ireland beat Argentina they will have defeated every tier 1 team in the last two years (except Wales who we only drew with and lost to).

Gatland gets the better of Schmidt again!

More like Gatland gets one over on Rory Best again...

by Gwlad Thu 23 Nov 2017, 11:22 pm

Ireland ripe for the taking this weekend. Ireland backs questionable and Argentina will see this as a potential weakness.

by Geen sport voor watjes Thu 23 Nov 2017, 11:36 pm

Like I said. A tad deluded

by Gwlad Thu 23 Nov 2017, 11:39 pm

Also I think Argentina would be an awesome place to hold a RWC.

by Geen sport voor watjes Thu 23 Nov 2017, 11:46 pm

I wouldn’t disagree with that. Better than having it or part of it in a third world area like wales for example. A Friday night up Merthyr, Bargoed or Nelson would be far to scary. Even Jo’burg would be preferable

by Pot Hale Thu 23 Nov 2017, 11:51 pm

Schmidt needs to start running up the caps on the newbies.
A and B team options shaping up. Who's looking likely to make the RWC 31?
If you use Schmidt's make up from last RWC: 1FB, 4W, 4C, 3 FH, 2SH, 1 8, 4 F, 4 L, 5 P, 3H, it could look like this:

15. Kearney ~~or Conway~~
14. Earls ~~or Byrne~~ or Conway
13. Ringrose or Farrell or Henshaw
12. Henshaw or Aki ~~or McCloskey~~
11. Stockdale ~~or Gilroy~~ or Zebo?
10. Sexton or Carbery ~~or Keatley~~ or Bleyendaal
9. Murray ~~or Marmion~~ or McGrath
8. ~~Stander or~~ Conan or Heaslip?
7. O'Brien or Leavy ~~or Murphy~~ ~~or vd Flier~~
6. O'Mahony or Stander ~~or Ruddock~~
5. Toner or Ryan
4. Henderson or Treadwell ~~or Roux~~
3. Furlong or Ryan or Moore ~~or Porter?~~
2. Best or Scannell or Herring ~~or Tracy~~
1. McGrath or Healy ~~or Kilcoyne~~

by Gwlad Thu 23 Nov 2017, 11:56 pm

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:I wouldn’t disagree with that. Better than having it or part of it in a third world area like wales for example. A Friday night up Merthyr, Bargoed or Nelson would be far to scary. Even Jo’burg would be preferable

Good job you aren't making the decisions as you clearly don't have a clue. Wales has hosted RWC games, Ireland hasn't and likely wont.

by Geen sport voor watjes Fri 24 Nov 2017, 12:12 am

I quite clearly made reference to Wales as a minor subdivision which “partly” hosted some games. Maybe a little too subtle for you.

by Gwlad Fri 24 Nov 2017, 12:14 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:I quite clearly made reference to Wales as a minor subdivision which “partly” hosted some games. Maybe a little to subtle for you.

Clearly, as is the distinction between to and too for you Laugh

And you don't 'partly' host games; you either host them, like Wales, or you don't like Ireland.

You're welcome.

by Geen sport voor watjes Fri 24 Nov 2017, 12:21 am

Well as a sideshow maybe for wales but clearly you forget Ireland has hosted games. However my favourite game was in Wales ( in fact I was in that backwater around that time ). It was 1991 and the Western Samoa game. I haven’t laughed as much since.

WRT to and too you need to stop editing posts. It’s very childish.

by Gwlad Fri 24 Nov 2017, 12:48 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Well as a sideshow maybe for wales but clearly you forget Ireland has hosted games. However my favourite game was in Wales ( in fact I was in that backwater around that time ). It was 1991 and the Western Samoa game. I haven’t laughed as much since.

WRT to and too you need to stop editing posts. It’s very childish.

You haven't laughed much since 1991 then, what a sad little man.

You seem to spend a lot of time in wales, can i ask in future that you restrict your time there, we really do not need your sort.

And I wouldn't have to correct your childish lack of grammar if you had even the most basic understanding of it. Evidently you do not.

by Geen sport voor watjes Fri 24 Nov 2017, 1:10 am

What a surprise. Welsh person who has inconsistencies in their posts pointed out to them turns abusive. Nothing new there then.

by Gwlad Fri 24 Nov 2017, 4:44 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:What a surprise. Welsh person who has inconsistencies in their posts pointed out to them turns abusive. Nothing new there then.

Whereas you are abusive towards an entire nation, a hypocrite and illiterate.

by Guest Fri 24 Nov 2017, 5:06 am

Gwlad wrote:
Geen sport voor watjes wrote:What a surprise. Welsh person who has inconsistencies in their posts pointed out to them turns abusive. Nothing new there then.

Whereas you are abusive towards an entire nation, a hypocrite and illiterate.

Did you honestly just write that?

That is too funny Laugh

You really are the village idiot gwlad thumbsup

by Gwlad Fri 24 Nov 2017, 6:21 am

ebop wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Geen sport voor watjes wrote:What a surprise. Welsh person who has inconsistencies in their posts pointed out to them turns abusive. Nothing new there then.

Whereas you are abusive towards an entire nation, a hypocrite and illiterate.
Did you honestly just write that?

That is too funny

You really are the village idiot gwlad

I bet you bore the tits of everyone you know ebop, all 2 of them

by carpet baboon Fri 24 Nov 2017, 7:16 am

People said there was a steroid epidemic in Wales.
I wasn't sure but then ............

by Guest Fri 24 Nov 2017, 7:22 am

Good point

So angry and irrational

by geoff999rugby Fri 24 Nov 2017, 9:42 am

Pot Hale wrote:Schmidt needs to start running up the caps on the newbies.
A and B team options shaping up. Who's looking likely to make the RWC 31?
If you use Schmidt's make up from last RWC: 1FB, 4W, 4C, 3 FH, 2SH, 1 8, 4 F, 4 L, 5 P, 3H, it could look like this:

15. Kearney ~~or Conway~~
14. Earls ~~or Byrne~~ or Conway
13. Ringrose or Farrell or Henshaw
12. Henshaw or Aki ~~or McCloskey~~
11. Stockdale ~~or Gilroy~~ or Zebo?
10. Sexton or Carbery ~~or Keatley~~ or Bleyendaal
9. Murray ~~or Marmion~~ or McGrath
8. ~~Stander or~~ Conan or Heaslip?
7. O'Brien or Leavy ~~or Murphy~~ ~~or vd Flier~~
6. O'Mahony or Stander ~~or Ruddock~~
5. Toner or Ryan
4. Henderson or Treadwell ~~or Roux~~
3. Furlong or Ryan or Moore ~~or Porter?~~
2. Best or Scannell or Herring ~~or Tracy~~
1. McGrath or Healy ~~or Kilcoyne~~

Decent guess but Zebo won't be there and Beirne could well be.
I'd replace Gilroy for Zebo and Beirne for Treadwell
I don't see Farrell making it
Marmion is still ahead of McGrath - one game doesn't make him a poor player

We wont change the rules to pick foreign based players for Zebo

Also watch the Olding and Jackson court case.
If innocent and even if he goes abroad Jackson will make the squad

by SecretFly Fri 24 Nov 2017, 10:12 am

geoff999rugby wrote:

We wont change the rules to pick foreign based players for Zebo

[Jackson]
If innocent and even if he goes abroad Jackson will make the squad

by geoff999rugby Fri 24 Nov 2017, 10:58 am

No contradiction Fly

The rules wont be bent for Zebo they will be for Jackson.

Jackson is in the Bowe, Sexton category of players we cant do without.
Wing is adequately covered, the drop off from Sexton is simply too far

by **profitius** Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:04 am

Pot Hale wrote:Schmidt needs to start running up the caps on the newbies.
A and B team options shaping up. Who's looking likely to make the RWC 31?
If you use Schmidt's make up from last RWC: 1FB, 4W, 4C, 3 FH, 2SH, 1 8, 4 F, 4 L, 5 P, 3H, it could look like this:

Going by that, I'd say:
Kearney,
Stockdale, Earls, Conway, ? (Maybe Sweetnam)
Henshaw, Ringrose, Aki, ? (Maybe McCloskey)
Sexton, Carbery, Jackson
Murray, Marmion
Stander, POM, SOB, Ruddock ? (Maybe VDF)
Henderson, Toner, Ryan, ? (Maybe Kleyn)
Furlong, Ryan, Porter, Healy, McGrath
Best, Scannell, ? (Maybe Herring)

Some other contenders. Beirne, Moore, Larmour, Leavy, Conan, Heaslip, Hanrahan, Bealham, Dillane, Olding, Farrell, R Scannell, L Marshall, Tracy etc.

If you look at the rise of James Ryan, Stockdale, Porter etc in the last year it suggests there might be some players included who are not even playing pro14 yet. Then you have the late developers. Hopefully JJ Hanrahan is in this category.

by SecretFly Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:08 am

Oh I knew what you were doing Geoff. You're a smart man and I knew it weren't no contradiction oversight. Wink

To tell the truth I was going to do my own version of Pot's list above and I was going to mark down Zebo coz Joe will know come the time that it might be best take him despite the principle. Ironically, I think Zebo would now be more a choice for Schmidt based on his defensive solidity (knowing the system) than his attacking prowess. Funny thought that, considering the time when Zebo couldn't get a look in because of his seeminly shirking the dirt work

by geoff999rugby Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:09 am

Hanrahan would be very late developer, at least for a back.

Closer to his 30th birthday than his 20th !

by geoff999rugby Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:12 am

I just think we are well covered on the wing

Stockdale, Earls to start

Conway, Gilroy, Kearney, Sweetnam, Bryne to cover.

Zebo is a better play than most of them but we don't fall off a cliff quality wise like we do at 10.
If we want to win the truly big games at the World Cup then 10 has to be Sexton, if not Jackson
No one else is up to the job

by SecretFly Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:18 am

If Heaslip is fit and playing......... he'll be on the plane. But I suppose at this point, that's a big IF.

Incidentally, IF Payne gets back, will he be on the plane? I've heard on one of these Ulster Threads that the chances are he won't even play again for anyone. But then I heard Kiss on the radio a few nights ago when I was waiting in traffic and he said they are doing the best for him. He was pushed on whether there was hope of him returning. He said they are actually confident he will get back... but can't obviously be too bullish on it either.

by geoff999rugby Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:47 am

If Heaslip is an IF Payne is an IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Still getting migranes/headaches since June.
Trained - but still not taking full contact
I just don't see him putting on an Ireland shirt again

He probably be like Ferris play a handful of games and then call it a day

Kiss comments? - cowpat for the media

by SecretFly Fri 24 Nov 2017, 12:22 pm

Cowschidt for the media? Well I never... Never knew old Kiss had it in him. Whistle

Anyway, I don't like no headaches at all when it concerns players. Any of that persistent head related stuff and I'm pretty stringent that it should probably be the end of a career for the player's future health. Even Sexton... I think about the number of moments he's had over the years. I hope all these players that have had multiple incidents will not suffer any undue affects later in their lives. And then again, players themselves get very angry when they hear people like me pontificate from the sidelines about the reasons they should call it a day. Sexton, for example again, bristled at times when too big of an issue was made about his concussion episodes. So what can you do - players want to always sense that there is hope.

I didn't think it was cowschidt though. I think I'm reasonable enough at that kind of analysis. He said it's not related to concussion episodes (I doubt it myself! Whistle

) and that they only happen when he's forced to train hard.

But Kiss ain't a Doc. We'll see. Wish him well though.

by Collapse2005 Fri 24 Nov 2017, 1:19 pm

Gwlad wrote:Ireland ripe for the taking this weekend. Ireland backs questionable and Argentina will see this as a potential weakness.

Irelands backs are good and perform very well as a unit. However I do think Argentina are coming to Lansdowne for the win and it will be a tough match.

by **profitius** Fri 24 Nov 2017, 2:24 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Hanrahan would be very late developer, at least for a back.

Closer to his 30th birthday than his 20th !

Not really especially for a 10. Paddy Jackson is only starting to reach his potential last season and Sexton only broke into the Leinster side at 23. Keatley is 30/31 and playing better than a few years back.

Hanrahan needs to get a run of games in Munster. His move to Northampton didn't work out but it was like sextons move to Racing where because style of play, injuries etc he never settled. The French were not too impressed even though he is now regarded as one of the top 10s on the international scene.

If JJ and Carbery can get gametime at 10 and Jackson comes back, we might be looking good heading into the world cup. If I had my way I'd send Carbery to Ulster and JJ to Connacht. The kiwis would do that no doubt.

A real late developer is Andrew Conway. He was highly rated as a youngster but only in the last 15 months is he fulfilling his talent.

by SecretFly Fri 24 Nov 2017, 2:55 pm

No, I think Kearney should (Rob that is) become maybe obsolete-ish at this point. He's hardy and he's experienced and sometimes he pulls off a great game - most notably against the very top side in the World, it has to be said.
But I think Cullen and Leinster should now mainly focus on Carbery at 15 and Sexton at 10 and develop their blueprint around them and allow Sexton and Carbery to better formulate a chemistry that comes from familiarity. Joe Schmidt should be told he has to adapt his thinking to allow Carbery and Sexton to be on the field together and for him to mould a game structure that can utilise both.

There are quite a number of players now raising their hands as possible Irish playmakers. But they need to be playing. Not all of them will be able to play because of their natural positions but Carbery can have a regular spot on an Irish side because he plays a number that is currently held by a man who is not as sharp or cutting edge as he once was. As we can see from Carbery, he has the hands and feet (if not fully the brain yet) to cause sides lots of trouble. He can also release some of our other emerging playmakers quickly and with space. Does he need more robustness? Yep. Is he young enough to still have some of that to get with time? Yes.

by Collapse2005 Fri 24 Nov 2017, 4:21 pm

Kearney is nailed on starting FB for the world cup

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 24 Nov 2017, 4:31 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Kearney is nailed on starting FB for the world cup

I think your crystal ball might be faulty.

by marty2086 Fri 24 Nov 2017, 4:44 pm

profitius wrote:A real late developer is Andrew Conway. He was highly rated as a youngster but only in the last 15 months is he fulfilling his talent.

Didn't help having Nacewa blocking his path at Leinster Whistle

by Pot Hale Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:35 pm

I had forgotten about Beirne - he could well be in the mix for the fourth spot if we assume that Toner, Henderson and Ryan are near certainties. Schmidt certainly seems hopeful for young Ryan. So Beirne, Treadwell, Roux, Dillane, and maybe Kleyn angling for the fourth seat with another on standby with the inevitable unexpected injuries to some certain starter.

Rob Kearney may well be one of those who sustains a pre-RWC injury and Conway/Stockdale could step up significantly as they're likely to feature in the 6N.

I'd agree that on recent wing displays by the newbies that Zebo isn't essential. However, Schmidt did indicate that injuries might dictate that he would have to come back into selection - abroad or not. The Top14 may, of course, blunt Zebo as a player through attrition and game time, in which case he's out of the reckoning.

If Henshaw, Ringrose and Aki likely fill 3 of the 4 centre slots, the fourth would appear to be up for competition between Farrell and McCloskey. Schmidt indicated that he wants to try Aki at 13 as well, so he's certainly looking for flexibility from his three-quarters troops. Might Stockdale be considered in midfield or Leinster's O'Loughlin?

One other possibility. Jordan Larmour is eye-catching and did well tonight at the RDS albeit against Dragons. Might Schmidt try to add him into the caps next year?

And since we're playing on the provincial merry-go-round in shifting players around to get better balance
Ross Byrne, Dan Leavy and Noel Reid to Ulster
JJ Hanrahan and Josh Murphy and Timmy O'Brien to Connacht
Adeolokun to Munster

by SecretFly Sat 25 Nov 2017, 12:32 am

Pot Hale wrote: Jordan Larmour is eye-catching and did well tonight at the RDS albeit against Dragons. Might Schmidt try to add him into the caps next year?

That was a sizzler of a game from the 2nd/3rd string Leinster. Wonderful to behold the desire to drive and invent and charge and pause and drive again. Poor Dragons didn't know what to do with themselves. It looked a touch like ruthless, vintage Leinster back for a cameo.

Haven't seen much Provincial rugby at all this year...delighted I picked up such a positive one with younglings involved. That Larmour dart was mouthwatering. If he can do that kinda stuff in tougher games against tougher opponents (and Nacewa seems to think that he can) then Joe is going to have his head wrecked getting his WC squad named.

by geoff999rugby Sat 25 Nov 2017, 11:49 am

Pot Hale wrote: Might Stockdale be considered in midfield or Leinster's O'Loughlin?

No on both counts - at least for Ireland.
Irleand need Stockdale on the wing and there are better options than both at Provincial level who are not part of the current squad e.g. Scannell and Marshall

Pot Hale wrote:
And since we're playing on the provincial merry-go-round in shifting players around to get better balance
Ross Byrne, Dan Leavy and Noel Reid to Ulster

2 out of 3 yes please - Reid no thanks.
He would get nowhere near the 12 shirt and would not be first choice for the 13 shirt.

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