6N 2017: Wales v Ireland, 10 March

First topic message reminder :


WALES v IRELAND
10 March 2017
KO: 20:05 GMT
Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [ITV, RTE, SC4, FR2, DMAX / BBC (H)]

Referee: Wayne Barnes (England)
Touch judges: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

124 Played 124
50 Won 67
7 Drawn 7
67 Lost 50
1,477 Points 1,381

B. Recent Form

7 February 2016
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
16 – 16 draw

29 August 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
10 – 16 to Wales

8 August 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
21 – 35 to Ireland

14 March 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 16 to Wales

8 February 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
26 – 3 to Ireland

2 February 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
22 – 30 to Ireland

5 February 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
21 – 23 to Wales

8 October 2011
Regional Stadium, Wellington, New Zealand
22 – 10 to Wales

C. Teams

WALES 


Halfpenny; North, J Davies, S Williams, L Williams, Biggar, Webb, Evans, Owens, Francis, Ball, A Jones, Warburton, Tipuric, Moriarty.

Replacements: Roberts for S Williams (67), S Davies for Biggar (80), G Davies for Webb (67), Smith for Evans (67), Baldwin for Owens (72), Lee for Francis (70), Charteris for Ball (63), Faletau for Moriarty (67).

IRELAND


Kearney; Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Zebo; Sexton, Murray; McGrath, Best, Furlong, D Ryan, Toner, Stander, O'Brien, Heaslip.

Replacements: Bowe for Kearney (70), Jackson for Sexton (19), Marmion for Murray (46), C Healy for McGrath (59), Scannell for Best (80), J Ryan for Furlong (80), Henderson for Toner (63), O'Mahony for Stander (63).

Yeah, not sure about that Mad for. One less win would be 4 points less, but the most BPs Ireland can pick up now would be 2 (winning ones).

So England could win 2 more and finish on 21 points (without getting BPs). Ireland could win their 2 remaining with BPs and finish on 20.

Griff wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Griff wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I heard it was points difference.

We'd use points difference?  As in 'total points for and against' difference?  i.e. the thing we had before bonus points to tell us who won when teams were tied on championship points?  That would make a mockery of the bonus points system in its first year then!

Why? It's still based on points first, including bonus points...

Because it shows that we didn't need bonus points in the first place.  Just score as many points during the match as possible, while conceding as few as possible to get the biggest points difference

Which would be irrelevant if someone else had an extra point by virtue of bonus points. Not sure you're understanding.

Scottrf wrote:

Griff wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Griff wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I heard it was points difference.

We'd use points difference?  As in 'total points for and against' difference?  i.e. the thing we had before bonus points to tell us who won when teams were tied on championship points?  That would make a mockery of the bonus points system in its first year then!

Why? It's still based on points first, including bonus points...

Because it shows that we didn't need bonus points in the first place.  Just score as many points during the match as possible, while conceding as few as possible to get the biggest points difference

Which would be irrelevant if someone else had an extra point by virtue of bonus points. Not sure you're understanding.

How am I not understanding? I'm in danger of going off topic here as this is more a discussion about the pros and cons of the bonus point system, for which there are other threads. But in a nutshell I just don't think there's a need for them as international teams don't need (IMO) incentives to try to score more tries. And if, ultimately, the winner can/will still be determined by total points for/against then the bonus point system is not needed. Has the BP system led to much more attacking rugby this tournament so far? Has the incentive worked? It was, after all, brought in to improve the entertainment value. Wasn't it?

Griff wrote:How am I not understanding?  I'm in danger of going off topic here as this is more a discussion about the pros and cons of the bonus point system, for which there are other threads.  But in a nutshell I just don't think there's a need for them as international teams don't need (IMO) incentives to try to score more tries.  And if, ultimately, the winner can/will still be determined by total points for/against then the bonus point system is not needed.  Has the BP system led to much more attacking rugby this tournament so far?  Has the incentive worked?  It was, after all, brought in to improve the entertainment value.  Wasn't it?

You're not understanding because of the sentence in bold.

It's like saying that there's no need for wins or losses because the winner can be determined by points for/against.

Griff wrote:Yeah, not sure about that Mad for.  One less win would be 4 points less, but the most BPs Ireland can pick up now would be 2 (winning ones).

So England could win 2 more and finish on 21 points (without getting BPs).  Ireland could win their 2 remaining with BPs and finish on 20.

Unless I'm much mistaken, and willing to look like a plonker for this one, Ireland could get two BPs vs Wales in a losing cause (i.e. one for scoring four tries, and one for losing by 7 or less), then a TBP in a win over England. This would see them to 17 points, which is what England would get with a win against Scotland and no BPs in either of their last two matches. Same if Scotland beat England and Italy with no BPs. You would then have Scotland/England on four wins to Ireland's three, but level on points.

Obviously unlikely, since you'd expect if Ireland do score 4 tries against Wales they'll win.

Scottrf wrote:

Griff wrote:How am I not understanding?  I'm in danger of going off topic here as this is more a discussion about the pros and cons of the bonus point system, for which there are other threads.  But in a nutshell I just don't think there's a need for them as international teams don't need (IMO) incentives to try to score more tries.  And if, ultimately, the winner can/will still be determined by total points for/against then the bonus point system is not needed.  Has the BP system led to much more attacking rugby this tournament so far?  Has the incentive worked?  It was, after all, brought in to improve the entertainment value.  Wasn't it?

You're not understanding because of the sentence in bold.

It's like saying that there's no need for wins or losses because the winner can be determined by points for/against.

Scott, I understand bonus points perfectly. Thanks for the patronizing comment though

So tell me, why do we need bonus points in the 6 nations? What is the whole point?

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

Griff wrote:Yeah, not sure about that Mad for.  One less win would be 4 points less, but the most BPs Ireland can pick up now would be 2 (winning ones).

So England could win 2 more and finish on 21 points (without getting BPs).  Ireland could win their 2 remaining with BPs and finish on 20.

Unless I'm much mistaken, and willing to look like a plonker for this one, Ireland could get two BPs vs Wales in a losing cause (i.e. one for scoring four tries, and one for losing by 7 or less), then a TBP in a win over England. This would see them to 17 points, which is what England would get with a win against Scotland and no BPs in either of their last two matches. Same if Scotland beat England and Italy with no BPs. You would then have Scotland/England on four wins to Ireland's three, but level on points.

Obviously unlikely, since you'd expect if Ireland do score 4 tries against Wales they'll win.

Yep, think you're right. I hadn't accounted for a positibiulty of 2 losing BPs.

Griff wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Griff wrote:How am I not understanding?  I'm in danger of going off topic here as this is more a discussion about the pros and cons of the bonus point system, for which there are other threads.  But in a nutshell I just don't think there's a need for them as international teams don't need (IMO) incentives to try to score more tries.  And if, ultimately, the winner can/will still be determined by total points for/against then the bonus point system is not needed.  Has the BP system led to much more attacking rugby this tournament so far?  Has the incentive worked?  It was, after all, brought in to improve the entertainment value.  Wasn't it?

You're not understanding because of the sentence in bold.

It's like saying that there's no need for wins or losses because the winner can be determined by points for/against.

Scott, I understand bonus points perfectly.  Thanks for the patronizing comment though

So tell me, why do we need bonus points in the 6 nations?  What is the whole point?

I'd rather not have them but I guess the idea is to give losing teams an incentive to push even if the win is achievable and for the theory that teams will go for tries rather than keeping the scoreboard ticking over via the posts.

Scottrf wrote:

Griff wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Griff wrote:How am I not understanding?  I'm in danger of going off topic here as this is more a discussion about the pros and cons of the bonus point system, for which there are other threads.  But in a nutshell I just don't think there's a need for them as international teams don't need (IMO) incentives to try to score more tries.  And if, ultimately, the winner can/will still be determined by total points for/against then the bonus point system is not needed.  Has the BP system led to much more attacking rugby this tournament so far?  Has the incentive worked?  It was, after all, brought in to improve the entertainment value.  Wasn't it?

You're not understanding because of the sentence in bold.
T
It's like saying that there's no need for wins or losses because the winner can be determined by points for/against.

Scott, I understand bonus points perfectly.  Thanks for the patronizing comment though

So tell me, why do we need bonus points in the 6 nations?  What is the whole point?

I'd rather not have them but I guess the idea is to give losing teams an incentive to push even if the win is achievable and for the theory that teams will go for tries rather than keeping the scoreboard ticking over via the posts.

I personally don't feel that those turgid and low scoring games in previous years have been that way because of no bonus point on offer.  I don't think that Wales v England 11-9 game back in 2005, for example, was low scoring because of a lack of bonus point.  This year with a bonus point on offer we only had a 2 tries to 1 victory for England.  Why wasn't it a try fest?  Similarly, I do not feel that in the past 6N a team that 10 points adrift will give up because there is no incentive to close the gap, or that now teams will only close the gap to 7 or less because of a point.  No, for me at this level in a short tournament I fee ALL teams go out to do as well as possible and score as many tries as possible or keep the score close regardless of whether there's a bonus point on offer for doing so.  So for me there does not need to be an incentive to do it.  Plus, if teams are tied on points and bonus points, as already stated, then it comes down to points for/against anyway!  So it's not needed to incentivize open rugby (my opinion) and we defer to the odd system when they're tied on points anyway.  So for me it's a bit pointless.  No pun intended!

I have to say that I think.bonus points are a bit null and void in this tournament. But always remember that Ireland were the first team to win a loosing bonus point. It may come in handy for the pub quiz.
In fact didn't we get the first try scoring bonus points to?

This is great, every single Englishmen will be begging Wales to win this weekend so i hope our stuffing continues. Playing the long game so Howley goes, England get a haggis up their chariot and limp to the Aviva for the coup de grace.

Does any one think that Wales will make any/many changes for this Fridays game?

Or will it be the same side as normal?

For Wales isn't this game about ranking points? If so then the key figure is a 15 point differential not 7, so the bonus points system is at direct odds with the Ranking points system!

Gwlad wrote:This is great, every single Englishmen will be begging Wales to win this weekend so i hope our stuffing continues. Playing the long game so Howley goes, England get a haggis up their chariot and limp to the Aviva for the coup de grace.

If that's the case could you get a message to Rhys Webb that Mr Barnes has been dating his mum but not showing her the respect she deserves. Cheers

majesticimperialman wrote:Does any one think that Wales will make any/many changes for this Fridays game?

Or will it be the same side as normal?

I'd recommend that Williams, Warburton, Tuperic, Faletau and Webb should be rested.

SecretFly wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Does any one think that Wales will make any/many changes for this Fridays game?

Or will it be the same side as normal?

I'd recommend that Williams, Warburton, Tuperic, Faletau and Webb should be rested.

For the First Test v ABs

Gwlad wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Does any one think that Wales will make any/many changes for this Fridays game?

Or will it be the same side as normal?

I'd recommend that Williams, Warburton, Tuperic, Faletau and Webb should be rested.

For the First Test v ABs

Anyway, it doesn't matter about the result on Friday, or the 6N tournament this year. We're rebuilding. And it's the start of our 4 year cycle. We're quirky like that, you see.... we like to start our cycle pre-Lions and right in the middle of the World Cup cycle. That's how we roll!

So the tournament is therefore devalued!

Morally Wales have already won.

Gwlad wrote:This is great, every single Englishmen will be begging Wales to win this weekend so i hope our stuffing continues. Playing the long game so Howley goes, England get a haggis up their chariot and limp to the Aviva for the coup de grace.

hahaha.. yessssssssssssssssssss

TightHEAD wrote:Morally Wales have already won.

Absolutely. Wales completely stuffed us morally in the last round.

Lawes was right then, everyone ups their game against England, even Welshmen want to lose to Ireland to stop us winning the Championship.

Pathetic really!

Griff wrote:Anyway, it doesn't matter about the result on Friday, or the 6N tournament this year. We're rebuilding. And it's the start of our 4 year cycle. We're quirky like that, you see.... we like to start our cycle pre-Lions and right in the middle of the World Cup cycle. That's how we roll!

So the tournament is therefore devalued!

Wales have won two of the last three Lions years six nations tournaments though.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Griff wrote:Anyway, it doesn't matter about the result on Friday, or the 6N tournament this year. We're rebuilding. And it's the start of our 4 year cycle. We're quirky like that, you see.... we like to start our cycle pre-Lions and right in the middle of the World Cup cycle. That's how we roll!

So the tournament is therefore devalued!

Wales have won two of the last three Lions years six nations tournaments though.

Which make it even more impressive that they did it durting their rebuilding phase. They also managed to win the Lions tour last time as well. The current teams struggles are a blip.

Things get bizarre when a bunch of Irish and English boys end up doing the cheerleading for the Welsh.

I think Joe might conspire to lose this one to cheer up his fellow countryman Gats; so that Gats can then take his pre-6N/pre-Lions team sheet out of the bin to go beat their Home Nation.

What a shower of traitors!

Please can we stop muddying the waters with subtlety, nuance and mutual respect.

I don't come to these boards for that - I am here for the jingoism and blind prejudice.

Please can we revert to the communal understanding that the average Welsh fan is a morally victorious sheepbotherer and the average English fan is a unconscionable toff with Tom Ford contact lenses who gets sniffy at anyone whose half time tuck does not come in a proper wicker picnic basket from Fortnums.

I think you are confusing respect with sarcasm

George would never do that, Goose. It's beneath his value system to dip his toes into some good ol'time banter.

Gooseberry wrote:I think you are confusing respect with sarcasm

Story of every work appraisal I've ever had.

George Carlin wrote:Please can we stop muddying the waters with subtlety, nuance and mutual respect.

I don't come to these boards for that - I am here for the jingoism and blind prejudice.

Please can we revert to the communal understanding that the average Welsh fan is a morally victorious sheepbotherer and the average English fan is a unconscionable toff with Tom Ford contact lenses who gets sniffy at anyone whose half time tuck does not come in a proper wicker picnic basket from Fortnums.

It's just really hard to say nasty things as we approach the first ever international to potentially feature 46 World Class players.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Please can we stop muddying the waters with subtlety, nuance and mutual respect.

I don't come to these boards for that - I am here for the jingoism and blind prejudice.

Please can we revert to the communal understanding that the average Welsh fan is a morally victorious sheepbotherer and the average English fan is a unconscionable toff with Tom Ford contact lenses who gets sniffy at anyone whose half time tuck does not come in a proper wicker picnic basket from Fortnums.

It's just really hard to say nasty things as we approach the first ever international to potentially feature 46 World Class players.

Was that subtlety, nuance and mutal sarcasm in action?

TightHEAD wrote:Lawes was right then, everyone ups their game against England, even Welshmen want to lose to Ireland to stop us winning the Championship.

Pathetic really!

The only pathetic thing I have read is your post...

Moderators do we really need this kind of rubbish on this website...????

Gooseberry wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Please can we stop muddying the waters with subtlety, nuance and mutual respect.

I don't come to these boards for that - I am here for the jingoism and blind prejudice.

Please can we revert to the communal understanding that the average Welsh fan is a morally victorious sheepbotherer and the average English fan is a unconscionable toff with Tom Ford contact lenses who gets sniffy at anyone whose half time tuck does not come in a proper wicker picnic basket from Fortnums.

It's just really hard to say nasty things as we approach the first ever international to potentially feature 46 World Class players.

Was that subtlety, nuance and mutal sarcasm in action?

TightHEAD wrote:Lawes was right then, everyone ups their game against England, even Welshmen want to lose to Ireland to stop us winning the Championship.

Pathetic really!

Well obviously everyone ups their games against the champions. That's fairly obvious.

I doubt Wales will want to lose however, I suspect you want Wales to win so England dont need a win in Dublin provided they beat Scotland.

maestegmafia wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Lawes was right then, everyone ups their game against England, even Welshmen want to lose to Ireland to stop us winning the Championship.

Pathetic really!

The only pathetic thing I have read is your post...

Moderators do we really need this kind of rubbish on this website...????

It'll be a quiet old place if you removed all the rubbish.

Not that maestag has ever posted rubbish. Oh no, definitely not....

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Lawes was right then, everyone ups their game against England, even Welshmen want to lose to Ireland to stop us winning the Championship.

Pathetic really!

Well obviously everyone ups their games against the champions. That's fairly obvious.

I doubt Wales will want to lose however, I suspect you want Wales to win so England dont need a win in Dublin provided they beat Scotland.

The tournament will be over by the end of Saturday. Can't see Ireland beating Wales and England should put their foot down on Scotland's throat.

Still a big game for the last weekend though. We don't want Ireland spoiling the slam party again!

I think there is a very good chance England will lose to Scotland.

The game against Wales is Heaslip's 100th test cap if you include his 5 Lions caps.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Lawes was right then, everyone ups their game against England, even Welshmen want to lose to Ireland to stop us winning the Championship.

Pathetic really!

Well obviously everyone ups their games against the champions. That's fairly obvious.

I doubt Wales will want to lose however, I suspect you want Wales to win so England dont need a win in Dublin provided they beat Scotland.

The tournament will be over by the end of Saturday. Can't see Ireland beating Wales Wayne Barnes and England should put their foot down on rob Scotland's throat at Twickers.

Still a big game for the last weekend though. We don't want Ireland spoiling the slam party again!

Fixed it for you Cyril!

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I think there is a very good chance England will lose to Scotland.

Much, much more chance of Ireland losing in Cardiff.

If Ireland do lose they will be dangerous for England in Dublin as they'll be desperate to get some pride back after disappointing their fans' lofty (some might say unrealistic) ambitions.

Plus, like the rest, they'll raise their game against England. It's why an English slam is worth more as they always face the other sides having their best game of the tournament. It's a cross they have to bear

rodders wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Lawes was right then, everyone ups their game against England, even Welshmen want to lose to Ireland to stop us winning the Championship.

Pathetic really!

Well obviously everyone ups their games against the champions. That's fairly obvious.

I doubt Wales will want to lose however, I suspect you want Wales to win so England dont need a win in Dublin provided they beat Scotland.

The tournament will be over by the end of Saturday. Can't see Ireland beating Wales Wayne Barnes and England should put their foot down on rob Scotland's throat at Twickers.

Still a big game for the last weekend though. We don't want Ireland spoiling the slam party again!

Fixed it for you Cyril!

Happy with that

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I think there is a very good chance England will lose to Scotland.

Much, much more chance of Ireland losing in Cardiff.

If Ireland do lose they will be dangerous for England in Dublin as they'll be desperate to get some pride back after disappointing their fans' lofty (some might say unrealistic) ambitions.

Plus, like the rest, they'll raise their game against England. It's why an English slam is worth more as they always face the other sides having their best game of the tournament. It's a cross they have to bear

Not really in my opinion. England and Wales are playing badly and Scotland and Ireland are currently playing well. I think there is every chance England will be ambushed by Scotland especially since England and the English media are really starting to believe all the hype.

Owen Farrell had his worst game in an England jersey against Italy. Hardly surprising when you consider all the praise that has been heaped on him lately.

Ireland's ambitions are hardly lofty. We have won two of the last three six nations. Thats more than England.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I think there is a very good chance England will lose to Scotland.

Much, much more chance of Ireland losing in Cardiff.

If Ireland do lose they will be dangerous for England in Dublin as they'll be desperate to get some pride back after disappointing their fans' lofty (some might say unrealistic) ambitions.

Plus, like the rest, they'll raise their game against England. It's why an English slam is worth more as they always face the other sides having their best game of the tournament. It's a cross they have to bear

Not really in my opinion. England and Wales are playing badly and Scotland and Ireland are currently playing well. I think there is every chance England will be ambushed by Scotland especially since England and the English media are really starting to believe all the hype.

Owen Farrell had his worst game in an England jersey against Italy. Hardly surprising when you consider all the praise that has been heaped on him lately.

Ireland's ambitions are hardly lofty. We have won two of the last three six nations. Thats more than England.

Ireland's two recent tournament 'wins' were shared trophies. Ireland haven't won the 6Ns since 2009.

Irish hype was in overdrive before the Scotland loss. After beating an under-strength and dis-interested NZ side in a circus sideshow (was it even a proper test?) you would have thought they had just won back-to-back world cups!

First we'll smash Wales. Then we'll smash and humiliate England.

It can't be anything else after winning those two back to back World Cups. It's written in the stars.

Cyril wrote:
Ireland's two recent tournament 'wins' were shared trophies. Ireland haven't won the 6Ns since 2009.

Well that's not bad compared to England's 13 year barren run from 2003 to 2016 then is it?

They were rebuilding, rodders. So stop wumming!

rodders wrote:

Cyril wrote:
Ireland's two recent tournament 'wins' were shared trophies. Ireland haven't won the 6Ns since 2009.

Well that's not bad compared to England's 13 year barren run from 2003 to 2016 then is it?

Yes but they came 2nd almost every year and as they insisted on telling us during those years, coming 2nd is equally important. Not sure why, consistency or something.

Oh what Italy would give for a few 2nds. Wouldn't it get the Georgians off their backs.

Gwlad wrote:

rodders wrote:

Cyril wrote:
Ireland's two recent tournament 'wins' were shared trophies. Ireland haven't won the 6Ns since 2009.

Well that's not bad compared to England's 13 year barren run from 2003 to 2016 then is it?

Yes but they came 2nd almost every year and as they insisted on telling us during those years, coming 2nd is equally important. Not sure why, consistency or something.

Haha shared trophies. Good one Cyril you space cadet.

Cyril wrote:
Ireland's two recent tournament 'wins' were shared trophies. Ireland haven't won the 6Ns since 2009.

Irish hype was in overdrive before the Scotland loss. After beating an under-strength and dis-interested NZ side in a circus sideshow (was it even a proper test?) you would have thought they had just won back-to-back world cups!

Ireland hype can never compare to the hype around England. The way the England media constantly fawn over Eddie Jones like he is the second coming makes for very uncomfortable viewing/reading. It will be a lot of fun when it all inevitably falls apart as spectacularly as only England can manage in sport.