New Rules

First topic message reminder :

Full story on the proposed changes to the rules.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/39120332


The summary of the proposed changes which will be subject to a period of consultation are;

Remove any penalty for accidentally moving your ball.

Relax the protocols for taking free or penalty drops, with the ball dropped from only an inch above the ground, rather than shoulder height.

Use fixed distances (20 or 80 inches) rather than club lengths to measure areas where a ball should be dropped.

Reduce the time allowed to search for a lost ball from five to three minutes.

Allow putting on the green with the flagstick left in the hole.

Allow players to repair spike marks and animal damage on greens.

Automatically allow the use of distance measuring devices.

Ban caddies from lining up players as they prepare to hit.

Recommend no player takes more than 40 seconds to hit a shot.

Encourage players in strokeplay to implement "ready golf" rather than waiting until it is their turn to hit.

Empower committees to set a maximum score for a hole (such as double par or triple bogey) to allow a player to pick up and move to the next hole.

The claim is that the rules are to be simplified but it looks as if the main aim is to improve the pace of play.

What are your thoughts on the proposals above?

What else would you like to see changed in the rules of golf?

Very rarely play strictly by the rules anyway! We play a provisional if its clearly lost, if not we have a little look around and through a ball down in the vicinity.

super_realist wrote:I disagree. You can hardly be so deft on your backswing to flatten and improve your lie.

Bunker shots are hard enough without being so harsh on moving a few grains of sand.

Deliberately moving the sand I'd agree with, a few grains on the take away I really don't see the problem, and I don't call someone out on it if I see it.

I understand Navy's point, you could just nestle the club in behind the ball and sweep away any obstruction on the backswing, only objective way to set a rule is to maintain no contact with the sand.

McLaren wrote:
If I ran a club I would actually be tempted to say you cannot look for a ball in thick rough unless you were playing a comp.  I know this sounds harsh but I get sick of standing waiting on tee's while some hackers is plodding about in the long grass probably not within 100 yards of where the ball landed.

If you ran a club there would be no members... so you'd be able to play as quickly as you pleased.

Ray

If I actually ran a club I would hope there wasn't any vegetation around the course that would significantly slow down play. No one likes to search for balls and I wouldn't want my members having to wast their time doing so.

I agree with the sentiment... massively annoying when you miss a fairway by a few yards in what you thought was a safe place, and then have to hunt around in the rough. So I'm all for manageable height. But then you run the risk that the course becomes too easy - it depends on what the members want really.

What if the members want the course to be challenging? Then rough height is probably the easiest variable to manipulate. Not every course was designed by a master architect like Colt or McKenzie so sometimes rough is a key design component and the main defence a course has.

There's a course near me that has very light rough, basically equivalent to 1st cut on most courses. Minimal penalty for missing the fairway (unless you go into the trees) and I generally beat handicap there. Is this more enjoyable? Maybe ocasionally but I think I would prefer more challenge if I played there every week.

navyblueshorts wrote:

GPB wrote:

McLaren wrote:  I have long thought that errant shots into the thick stuff are a major cause of slow play.

IMO, its the thick stuff is the cause of the slow play, not the errant shots.  If the golf course can't be bothered to mow grass to a proper height (2" or less), then the "thick stuff" should have a red line drawn around it.  If you find, great, play it.  If you don't find it, then take your penalty drop from point of entry and play on.  No need for a provisional.

When my course decided to go "Lean and Mean" and grow the rough to 3 and 4 inches, The rough added 30-45 minutes to the round of golf.  I complained and complained, and got flippant responses like "hit it in the fairway".  I told them I don't play in vacuum.  There are other members on the course.

Thick rough might be one (minor IMO) contributing factor, but it's part of golf. Don't hit the f-ing thing there. Who decides point of entry? I don't trust people. Easiest way to police is to hit a provisional.

emphasis mine

Ahem, cough cough

And There it is. Right on cue.  In Bold Print. The flippant response.  

As I said.  I didn't play golf in a vacuum.  There are groups ahead of me.  I am playing with others.  I have no control on how and where they hit the ball

Alistair Mackenzie opined:

"Its (long grass) only purpose .... is to annoy and frustrate"

"I have yet to meet a golfer who enjoys looking for his ball"

"Lets not get into the feelings of those unlucky enough to be playing behind such an unfortunate individual"

GPB - 2 recommends from me today!

Great post GPB.

The Spirit of St Andrews is a must read before one comments on course design.

Ray..................... Not mentioning any names.

I play at a MacKenzie course and the main defence is the clever bunkering and Augusta-like greens.

.... but as I said, not every course is an architectural masterpiece. Sometimes rough is all the greenkeeper has when setting up the course.

Golfers should just be mindful to what is going on around them. A course has rough and you keep hoicking your ball in it and take time to find it, let the people behind play through. I cant imagine anyone that plays golf is not aware if they are being held up or holding up the people behind.

But we have all seen people act like dicks in front of us on the golf course.

GPB wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

GPB wrote:

McLaren wrote:  I have long thought that errant shots into the thick stuff are a major cause of slow play.

IMO, its the thick stuff is the cause of the slow play, not the errant shots.  If the golf course can't be bothered to mow grass to a proper height (2" or less), then the "thick stuff" should have a red line drawn around it.  If you find, great, play it.  If you don't find it, then take your penalty drop from point of entry and play on.  No need for a provisional.

When my course decided to go "Lean and Mean" and grow the rough to 3 and 4 inches, The rough added 30-45 minutes to the round of golf.  I complained and complained, and got flippant responses like "hit it in the fairway".  I told them I don't play in vacuum.  There are other members on the course.

Thick rough might be one (minor IMO) contributing factor, but it's part of golf. Don't hit the f-ing thing there. Who decides point of entry? I don't trust people. Easiest way to police is to hit a provisional.

emphasis mine

Ahem, cough cough

And There it is. Right on cue.  In Bold Print. The flippant response.  

As I said.  I didn't play golf in a vacuum.  There are groups ahead of me.  I am playing with others.  I have no control on how and where they hit the ball

Alistair Mackenzie opined:

"Its (long grass) only purpose .... is to annoy and frustrate"

"I have yet to meet a golfer who enjoys looking for his ball"

"Lets not get into the feelings of those unlucky enough to be playing behind such an unfortunate individual"

Boo hoo - suck up some flippancy. The fact that golfers don't enjoy looking (don't hit the f-ing thing there then) is not a reason long grass and other cabbage shouldn't be on a course. Go and play pitch and putt or crazy golf. That quote is laughable really - the player in the cabbage should be letting those behind through. No problem.

beninho wrote:Golfers should just be mindful to what is going on around them. A course has rough and you keep hoicking your ball in it and take time to find it, let the people behind play through. I cant imagine anyone that plays golf is not aware if they are being held up or holding up the people behind.

But we have all seen people act like dicks in front of us on the golf course.

In my experience there is frequently a macho attitude among older male golfers which prevents them from letting anyone through, as if allowing a faster group through is somehow an insult to their golf ability / social status / manhood.

The stereotype of getting stuck behind the ladies 4-ball never seems to occur in my experience. Actually women tend to be the most considerate golfers on the course and don't hesitate in waving faster groups through.

Navy

What is the reason for cabbage on a course?

raycastleunited wrote:I play at a MacKenzie course and the main defence is the clever bunkering and Augusta-like greens.

.... but as I said, not every course is an architectural masterpiece. Sometimes rough is all the greenkeeper has when setting up the course.

Played Cavendish last year (Buxton, Derbyshire) - plenty of rough and other cabbage around there. Wonder who designed it??? Hmmm....ah. Some guy by the name of MacKenzie. Some coincidence on the name eh? Must be some other guy...

Lovely course though; well worth playing.

It's all shades of grey and a balance isn't it? I doubt anyone thinks it's sensible to have 3ft rough 6" off the fairway all round a course, but clearly there's room for some judicious use of cabbage.

Navy

Don't be a fool, you know perfectly well Cavendish is unlikely to be in its original or intended configuration.    

McLaren wrote:Navy

Don't be a fool, you know perfectly well Cavendish is unlikely to be in its original or intended configuration.    

Yeah; says you. I know of no such thing. From the Cavendish web site:

Cavendish Golf Club wrote:The course has retained virtually all of the features present in MacKenzie’s original design, making full use of the natural features and providing a true test for golfers at all levels of ability.

Navy

They would say that.

NBS...yes letting groups continually play through is a recipe for fast play.  

I don't know why you would want to treat the symptoms rather than cure the disease

Grass on a golf course is meant to be mowed, not unkempt.  

If they want it unkempt, draw a red line around it.

Is Alistair Mackenzie taking care of the Cavendish Course?

By and large all good suggestions from the USGA and R&A.

Interesting that some posters on here (Nbs cough cough) make the old farts at R&A and USGA look like ganja smoking hippies.

McLaren wrote:Navy

They would say that.  

So why automatically assume they're lying? To suit your narrative? Played there recently? Played it in its original state? Thought not...

pedro wrote:By and large all good suggestions from the USGA and R&A.

Interesting that some posters on here (Nbs cough cough) make the old farts at R&A and USGA look like ganja smoking hippies.

Nice. I suggest that some of the proposals might not stand up and you take a pop. Maybe the R&A/USGA are the ones smoking dope and perhaps you haven't thought them all through enough?

If all of this is to address slow play, or the perception of such, can someone please explain to me why in the past this wasn't perceived to be an issue? The Rules haven't changed and yet play's got slower? Now, forgive me if I'm wrong, but that isn't the Rules' fault now is it? It can't be people looking for balls per se because people have always hit them in the cabbage.

The current slow play malaise is more likely down to:

• people increasingly mimicking the glacial world of pro golf
  
• taking every putt as if it's to win the Open
  
• thinking 'Aimpoint' is going to make the slightest bit of difference
  
• not putting out "because I might step on their through line" (give me strength!)
  
• drawing lines on their balls, taking an age to line up the putt via that line, addressing the ball, re-adjusting because they aren't happy, re-addressing....and then missing it ( )
  
• thinking they hit it 300+ off the tee and therefore have to wait an age, before scuffing it ~150
  
• not being ready when it's their turn
  
• thinking they can hit that par 5 in two when they're 250+ out and the shot requires a controlled fade over a penal dogleg, waiting for the green to clear....and then mis-hitting it ~150 into the copse on the dogleg elbow
  
• not hitting provisionals when they think they might lose a ball
  
• not calling groups through when looking for a ball or when losing ground on group in front
  
• etc, etc etc
  

When I first started playing golf at my club in Bournemouth we were always encouraged to play "ready" golf which generally meant whoever was first on the tee played irrespective of who had the honour. We also walked up level with our ball at the side of the fairway while those behind played their shots (obviously being mindful of keeping out of the way of an errant shot) so as to be ready to walk across and be able to play as soon as those behind have hit their ball and putting out as soon as you are ready on the green irrespective of who is furthest away. It certainly speeds up play which is the whole point of it and means you don't have to rush to actual shot.

Having said that, I do agree with everything Navy says on the slow play malaise which tends to affect the men's game rather than the women   although I'm glad to see the proposed outlawing of caddies lining up every shot which has crept into the women's pro game. In general I am in favour of the changes, just don't think some of them go far enough - a drop out of a completely waterlogged bunker (which should be marked GUR which often isn't) should not incur a two stroke penalty and relief should be allowed from fairway divots. In both cases it's not the player's fault.

LadyPutt wrote:... and relief should be allowed from fairway divots...

I think we'd all like this, but how do you know you're actually in a real divot? If it's fresh, fine. If old, how can you be sure? I don't think you can be, hence it's policed easiest as 'play it as it lies' unless under Winter Rules.

I always find that the ones who moan about slow play are the worst offenders. And they often fail to see it.

Unless you are in a real deep hack of a divot isn't it usually more a mental barrier rather than any noticeable impact on the shot?

puligny wrote:Super - I think they changed it to 1 shot penalty a few years ago, and are now consulting on removing the penalty altogether - for hitting yourself/equipment/caddy etc.

Yes, it's now a one stroke penalty for hitting your own bag, and no penalty for hitting anyone else's bag. A friend of mine hit his own trolley wheel with a drive last year and the ball ricocheted OB. He refused to believe he was playing four off the tee....

That rule has changed so many times over the years. At times there was a penalty for hitting your own bag, then someone else's, then any bag, then back to your own bag again.

If this change happens, I don't understand who or what will prevent me from putting my bag down right behind the pin when I've got a nasty downhill chip from a tricky lie on the 12th...

Nothing about relief from fairway divots. Surely now the worst rule left in golf. You can pump one 250 down the middle and have no 2nd shot because some dill was too lazy to replace his divot a couple of days previous, meanwhile your opponent pulls a hook and ends up in the rough 30 yards to the left of you. But luck being luck his ball has come to rest on a rabbit scraping in the rough so he gets a "1inch" drop which is effectively a place. Where the hell is the fairness in that?

JAS wrote:Nothing about relief from fairway divots. Surely now the worst rule left in golf. You can pump one 250 down the middle and have no 2nd shot because some dill was too lazy to replace his divot a couple of days previous, meanwhile your opponent pulls a hook and ends up in the rough 30 yards to the left of you. But luck being luck his ball has come to rest on a rabbit scraping in the rough so he gets a "1inch" drop which is effectively a place. Where the hell is the fairness in that?

I didn't use to agree with this, but I think you are exactly right now. The rules proposals seem to be all about making the game easier, and - if this is correct - then I would have to say that in that scenario it's iniquitous if you didn't get a drop.

The problem always with drops out of divots is what constitutes a divot. You think your ball is in a divot hole, I think it's just nestling down a bit on the fairway. No argument from me if it's settled in a fresh, glistening brown crater though.

George1507 wrote:

puligny wrote:Super - I think they changed it to 1 shot penalty a few years ago, and are now consulting on removing the penalty altogether - for hitting yourself/equipment/caddy etc.

Yes, it's now a one stroke penalty for hitting your own bag, and no penalty for hitting anyone else's bag. A friend of mine hit his own trolley wheel with a drive last year and the ball ricocheted OB. He refused to believe he was playing four off the tee....

That rule has changed so many times over the years. At times there was a penalty for hitting your own bag, then someone else's, then any bag, then back to your own bag again.

If this change happens, I don't understand who or what will prevent me from putting my bag down right behind the pin when I've got a nasty downhill chip from a tricky lie on the 12th...

Good point. Too much inhaling from the geezers on the R&A/USGA perhaps...

JAS wrote:Nothing about relief from fairway divots. Surely now the worst rule left in golf. You can pump one 250 down the middle and have no 2nd shot because some dill was too lazy to replace his divot a couple of days previous, meanwhile your opponent pulls a hook and ends up in the rough 30 yards to the left of you. But luck being luck his ball has come to rest on a rabbit scraping in the rough so he gets a "1inch" drop which is effectively a place. Where the hell is the fairness in that?

Ah yes. The old 'rabbit scraping' get-out-of-jail-free trick. I think that gets abused quite a bit too. Maybe that should simply be a play as it lies or take a penalty drop.

McLaren wrote:Great post GPB.

The Spirit of St Andrews is a must read before one comments on course design.  

Ray.....................    Not mentioning any names.  

Mac, I doubt you've ever read a book in your life. You just read the blurb and look at the pictures and think that makes you an expert on course design. Your "knowledge" is no better than anyone elses who plays lots of courses.

As for divots, I think it's pretty clear if you are in a divot, if you are unsure, then the lie clearly isn't that bad and you should just get on with it.

One note on divots that I'd like to point out is that it might not always be the case that people are not replacing divots. I've watched crows walk along the fairway upturning replaced divots looking for a meal.

super_realist wrote:One note on divots that I'd like to point out is that it might not always be the case that people are not replacing divots. I've watched crows walk along the fairway upturning replaced divots looking for a meal.

My point exactly - for once I agree with you Super. Same happens here on the coast with gulls. Relief should be allowed.

LP, speaking of gulls. I was playing Leven once and a Seagull picked my ball up and dropped it within 3 feet of the hole on the 12th.

LadyPutt wrote:

super_realist wrote:One note on divots that I'd like to point out is that it might not always be the case that people are not replacing divots. I've watched crows walk along the fairway upturning replaced divots looking for a meal.

My point exactly - for once I agree with you Super. Same happens here on the coast with gulls. Relief should be allowed.

No, it shouldn't. It can't be consistently policed.

Are we suggesting that a player should be able to touch the intended line of putt making good a spikemark I'm not sure we can ever let that happen.
Most of these proposals seem to be about pace of play and the concern about numbers playing the game,more youngsters etc.If kids havent got the patience for 18 then they can play 9 or short courses or stay at home on x box.
Most of us know how to conduct ourselves re pace pf play we just need to spread the word.

And I would agree with the cut the grass argument big time.
Re time spent looking for a ball it may cause a bit of distress initially as someone is going to have to say time up sunshine after 3 mins back you go and play again.

Why not Dyna? If you can repair a pitchmark, why not a spike mark?


It's not like you are going to have 12 on every hole, maybe one or two a round, hardly going to slow anything up.

I'd prefer if they just banned spikes, there's no need for them these days.

I disagree that "most" people know how to conduct ourselves. Regular 4.5 hour rounds would seem to suggest we don't, although I have to admit, being at St.Andrews, tourists seem to think that paying an inflated green fee means they ought to be able to take as long as they like.

My other course is about 3.75 hours, which is fine. If you can't spend that time, then find another game.

I'd also say that most lost balls in my experience are not in long grass, it's in the trees, in bushes, in gorse, in broom, in water etc, whilst most slow play is down to slow walking and taking too long to play.

I honestly dont get that people get so riled about something not being "policed". Dont we all just play golf for fun? I cant see whats wrong with moving it out of a divert, or even a lump of mud. If people are worried that others will take advantage, then so what, why does it bother you?

If someone is the sort of person that will move his ball to a better lie when not in a divot, then he is probably the sort of person who will kick it into a better lie in the rough or from behind a tree people likely to cheat no more than they would do anyway.

Theres nothing better than visiting a course and sauntering round winding up the natives. The bulging eyes and apoplectic rage it causes is hilarious. You've just paid thick end of a 100 quid to play somewhere you've never been before, so to have some squinty eyed midget going ape Poopie is absolutley priceless. Not so keen to have visitors at our place though...

beninho wrote:I honestly dont get that people get so riled about something not being "policed". Dont we all just play golf for fun? I cant see whats wrong with moving it out of a divert, or even a lump of mud. If people are worried that others will take advantage, then so what, why does it bother you?

If someone is the sort of person that will move his ball to a better lie when not in a divot, then he is probably the sort of person who will kick it into a better lie in the rough or from behind a tree people likely to cheat no more than they would do anyway.

Exactly Beninho, if you play social golf 100% to the rules, I'm not sure how you can have too much fun. We'll always move a ball out of a divot hole, or clean the ball if it's a mud ball, or tap down a spike hole, play out of turn etc etc.

It's only in competition I will adhere to the rules, and even then, we often play out of turn.

MontysMerkin wrote:Theres nothing better than visiting a course and sauntering round winding up the natives. The bulging eyes and apoplectic rage it causes is hilarious. You've just paid thick end of a 100 quid to play somewhere you've never been before, so to have some squinty eyed midget going ape Poopie is absolutley priceless. Not so keen to have visitors at our place though...

Wow, two racist insults and one heightist slur in one sentence. I'm surprised at you Monty. What would Jeremy say?

Racist?

Squinty eyed, ape, not much different from slanty eyed gorilla.

Supposed to read apescheiße.
Talk about quick to take offence, snowflake!

MontysMerkin wrote:Supposed to read apescheiße.
Talk about quick to take offence, snowflake!

I was actually "aping" your usual Mac type response to innocent statements.

Is this supers safe space?

super_realist wrote:

MontysMerkin wrote:Supposed to read apescheiße.
Talk about quick to take offence, snowflake!

I was actually "aping" your usual Mac type response to innocent statements.

Nice one

beninho wrote:I honestly dont get that people get so riled about something not being "policed". Dont we all just play golf for fun? I cant see whats wrong with moving it out of a divert, or even a lump of mud. If people are worried that others will take advantage, then so what, why does it bother you?

If someone is the sort of person that will move his ball to a better lie when not in a divot, then he is probably the sort of person who will kick it into a better lie in the rough or from behind a tree people likely to cheat no more than they would do anyway.

Totally agree ben. Too many entrenched rules fascists in the game of golf. It needs to loosen up.

Cricket bringing in some revisions as well: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/39194258