Simon Hobday has left the bar for the last time - ICL International Champion, US Senior Open winner, etc

Dismayed to see yet another sporting death this week, with Closing Time announced for the legendary Simon Hobday.

Anyone unfamiliar with the great South African should know that, whatever John Daly might have done or said he's done in his career, he was positively minor league compared to Hall Of Fame calibre Hell Raiser Hobday.

In his spare time he enjoyed a fine career, 6 x Sunshine Tour wins, including the 1971 South African Open, a Madrid Open and a German Open, before reinventing himself on the US Senior Town, presumably enticed by Brian Henning, where he won five times including the 1994 Senior Open.

I'm sure many of the greyer beards amongst us have their own Hobday hilarities to pass on, but to give others a flavour of the man, I link here a Golf Digest interview w/Nick Price - who, not incidentally, rates Trevino and Hobday as the finest ball- strikers he'd ever seen:

 http://www.golfdigest.com/story/stachura_price0311


(Terrible couple of weeks in sport as we've lost Peter Richardson & Jackie Hampshire, Derek Ibbotson, Alex Young & Tommy Gemmell, and now this.)

A favourite trotted out on Sky when the play is in SA is of a particular course with par 3 over water. Playing it on one very hot day, apparently he hit green with his tee shot, then dived in the lake and swam to the green! Nobody was surprised!!
They're all going to go one day Kwini - fortunately we will survive forever!
It's also the ones that get ill - heard a while ago that Nobby Stiles has dementia and is in permanent care. Never did a great footballer look less like a great footballer. So short sighted he didn't know where the ball was until it bounced - but I never saw anyone try harder, with the possible exception of Charlton R.

My sentiments exactly, puligny.
Reports that Peters & Ray Wilson, as well as Norbert, are in similar trouble, and doesn't sound as if Charlton J is in any better shape; not to mention the cancer that seems to have been chasing Cohen for 20 years. Greaves still in care(?) and I suppose Banks & Charlton R dodged their bullets, sort of, long ago, but it seems GH, IC & RH are still OK. Think Terry Paine is still in South Africa, hopefully in decent health. (The others who played in 1966, AB, JC & Moore R goners.)

Funnily Jimmy Greaves was in the news this week, as CR7 gets close to eclipsing his scoring record (366 goals in major European leagues).Report said he was sending good wishes to CR7, but also confirmed that while comfortable he can't walk and is limited in communication. What a player in a "funny old game (Saint), funny old game"!

Funnily Jimmy Greaves was in the news this week, as CR7 gets close to eclipsing his scoring record (366 goals in major European leagues).Report said he was sending good wishes to CR7, but also confirmed that while comfortable he can't walk and is limited in communication. What a player in a "funny old game (Saint), funny old game"!

I was tempted to offer on the other thread that Greaves & Charlton defined the discussion about difference between a great goalscorer and scorer of great goals.
In the hubbub about Rooney beating Charlton's goal scoring records, the 2xxx media seldom mention that Charlton played midfield for the second 60% of his career . . . . .

Guess Le Tis would define "scorer of great goals", perhaps Coutinho has that about him too.

Yes, even early days Charlton played most often as a winger supplying rather than an up front striker. His goals, for me, define great goals. Mexico '66, 2 against Portugal, and in particular the one side footed from edge of the penalty area. Best of all vs Spurs in Charity Shield at OT, in the game featuring Pat J on the scoresheet for Spurs. Stepney rolls ball out of area to Denis Law, in left back position (Denis Law in left back position), quick dart forward, one shimmy of the hips and sets Kidd off for a gallop down left wing. Low cross 10 yards or so outside the penalty area and the next anyone knew it was bouncing back out of the goal. A scorer of great goals, absolutely!

puligny wrote:Best of all vs Spurs in Charity Shield at OT, in the game featuring Pat J on the scoresheet for Spurs. Stepney rolls ball out of area to Denis Law, in left back position (Denis Law in left back position), quick dart forward, one shimmy of the hips and sets Kidd off for a gallop down left wing. Low cross 10 yards or so outside the penalty area and the next anyone knew it was bouncing back out of the goal. A scorer of great goals, absolutely!

Apparently I was at that game though as a 5(?) year old I don't really remember it

Davie,
The title of this thread was just for you (and me) . . . . . . . . .

Lots of remembrances about Hobday sticking all his golf clothes in a bath tub with some detergent and swirling them round with his putter. Who needs washing machines?

kwinigolfer wrote:(Terrible couple of weeks in sport as we've lost Peter Richardson & Jackie Hampshire, Derek Ibbotson, Alex Young & Tommy Gemmell, and now this.)

I'd missed that about Jackie Hampshire - another from my era gone too soon.

You're ahead of me Davie - only saw it on tv, but it was/is special. Are you from that neck 'o the woods?

puligny wrote:You're ahead of me Davie - only saw it on tv, but it was/is special. Are you from that neck 'o the woods?

I was originally from even further North - Barrow in Furness - but a southern softie for 35 years now. I wasn't a ManU supporter either then or now though - my sister and her husband used to live in the Trafford Park area though

kwinigolfer wrote:Davie,
The title of this thread was just for you (and me) . . . . . . . . .

I did wonder about the kwini - but thought ICL maybe stood for something else in this context

Davie wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:Davie,
The title of this thread was just for you (and me) . . . . . . . . .  

I did wonder about the kwini - but thought ICL maybe stood for something else in this context

Nope, the real thing! Perhaps the annual winner from the Golf Society outings should have received an invite . . . . .

Rooney may have scored more goals than R Charlton, but I don't know anyone who would rate him as a better player than Charlton. Ultimately Charlton is a world cup winner, until that is equaled there's really no comparison.

Come on, it's absurd to compare modern footballers of any nation to the players of 1966 or anyone else who won a World CUp in that era.

Messi hasn't won a world cup, nor Ronaldo, but both are better than Geoff Hurst was.

Winning a major in any sport, doesn't necessarily mean you are better than someone who hasn't. Is Ben Curtis a better player than Colin Montgomerie or Sergio Garcia? Course he isn't.

Stefan Guivarch has won a world cup for christs sake and he was terrible.

I am not comparing every player in a certain era to modern players.
I am specifically comparing Rooney's career to that of R Charlton, they both played for England & Manu, they have both won European Cups and set goal scoring records but Rooney has never really done it at International level, Charlton won the ultimate accolade, The World Cup.

You can't compare the two, see puligny's note above from Thursday.
Both fantastic footballers though.

You could say Charlton played great in one tournament. So did Rooney at Euro 2004, he was fantastic in that tournament. Had he not got injured we could have gone a lot further. Ifs and buts of course, then he had injuries at other big tournaments but certainly not fulfilled the potential that start showed.

Be_the_ball wrote:I am not comparing every player in a certain era to modern players.
I am specifically comparing Rooney's career to that of R Charlton, they both played for England & Manu, they have both won European Cups and set goal scoring records but Rooney has never really done it at International level, Charlton won the ultimate accolade, The World Cup.

I still think that's a poor comparison. It's true Rooney has been rubbish at international level, just as most England players have, but let's not pretend the level of the international game was anywhere like the standard in 1966 as it is now. I wouldn't expect Bobby Charlton to be great in 2017.

Can't really blame Rooney for being dire for England, when England aren't a top team due to there being greater competition in the international game. It wasn't so competitive or professional in 1966.

Pretty sure Rooney would have looked decent in 1966 too.

Seriously, to say he has been rubbish is a ludicrous statement. Did you actually watch Euro 2004, he had a fantastic tournament. You can't choose to ignore that just because it was the start of his career. Unfulfilled at tournament finals yes, that does not make him rubbish.

You can't compare players of different eras, but you can accurately say that they were very different types of player - hence even more difficult to compare.
Charlton's great play certainly wasn't confined to one World Cup, Digs!

Come on Diggers, yes it was a bit hyperbolic, but do you really have to go back 13 years to find a time when you think he was good?

Average his form out over his caps and it's pretty ordinary compared to his reputation and he's only been good in one solitary tournament.

Saying that, in a less competitive era like Charlton and Hurst's you'd see a lot of people in the current England squad look like world beaters.

They were both top players, don't get me wrong. Rooney played well in 04, yes. But Charlton won it in 66, there's a big big difference between playing well and winning it and for me that gives Charlton the edge.
Im not even going to get into a debate on whats wrong with England today, but I will say the media have a lot to do with it, they can't wait to undermine a manager which gives pampered players a way out. I think England could easily be like Germany where very good organisation & discipline with the odd touch of genius would be enough and going far in tournaments would be a regular occurrence. Managers today are too afraid of leaving player x out as if it goes wrong the media will slaughter them.

I don't think there's anything wrong with England now, I just think it's more competitive now than it was in 1966, and having been at the top once, doesn't mean you ought to remain there, just ask Uruguay.

There is no shame in England being where they are, other teams have just improved at a better rate. Where there were perhaps 8 top teams in 1966 of which England were one, in 2017 there are perhaps 12-16, of which England probably aren't.

I'm not sure other eras were less competitive. All the bigger teams were in the same position, the strong teams now - the ones that win tournaments- were the strong teams then. You always go on about England dropping the superstars and playing form players, well that's pretty much what happened in 66, mixed with a few world class players like Moore, Charlton and Ball, plus a very useful keeper.

Well in 1966 North Korea were one of the top 16 teams and most of Africa boycotted the tournament.

If you had 16 teams now, you'd probably get a stronger tournament.

I'd like to see England select on form instead of those with names, but it will never happen.

When England were reaching semis and quarters they were losing to sides like Germany and Brazil and Portugal. It's those same teams that have stopped England from achieving in the past 50 years, not Iceland.

I guess these things are cyclical, I mean look how long its taken Ireland to get back to a decent level after winning the World Cup in 1990.

Well in the last 20 years, they've pretty much done eff all. So Iceland can count themselves as one of those teams.

Since 1996, they haven't reached a SF. England haven't come close to achieving anything that at least 7-15 other teams have. They've only got 4 QF's out of the last 10 tournaments. No WC QF for over 10 years and one Euro QF in the last 12

It's the new England level. No reason to see why it would change.

I would agree that 96 was probably England's last really good chance to win a major tournament, good interview here with Alan Shearer where he talks about that and where are the players like him and Keane now?

http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/The_Football_Show_on_Off_The_Ball/177611/Alan_Shearer_interview_City_spank_WHU_Wenger_out

The last tournament where I thought England looked decent was Euro 2004. Although it was another QF exit to Portugal, that team was solid at the back, retained possession well, and could be pretty exciting going forward. If they'd got the rub of the green they could have gone all the way. Been downhill since then...

That's the thing though, England can't do it because they're ever good enough, they would require the "rub of the green" to even get a semi final.

Tons of teams in the second/third tier could get the "rub of the green", like Wales and Iceland last year, but, like England they'd never win it.

Super, to win a tournament, all teams require the rub of the green at some stage. The margins are so fine. I'm not talking about consistent lucky decisions, just one key moment which favours the eventual champions.

England went out to Portugal on penalties in Euro 2004, but there are so many things that could have changed the outcome: Campbell scored a "winner" at the end of extra time which was dubiously ruled out, Beckham's penalty where the turf gave way as he stepped up to hit it, Rooney limping off injured when he was England's most dangerous player.

I'm not saying England deserved to win the tournament, or event that game, just that in 2004 they were as strong as any team there. The back 4 was made up of A Cole, Terry, Campbell and G Nev - at the time they were all world class players in their prime. The midfield 4 of Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard and Beckham was again 4 world class players capable of winning a game (although you could argue they didn;t gel as a unit). And Owen and Rooney up front looked dangerous - they were both quick and clinical in those days.

I don't think anyone in the current England squad would get in that team, we've fallen a long way.

England are very far away from "fine margins" They routinely bottle it in tournaments and haven't had a sniff success in well over 20 years. Even a penalty shootout isn't a "fine margin" for England, as they haven't won one of since the one against Spain in 96.

You could say that Denmark, Sweden and Czech Republic were as close (and some closer) than England were to winning that. They all got at least as far, so who cares if you perceive your players to be "world class". That's part of your problem, you're only as good as you play, not what your club reputations say you are and to say that the back 4 and midfield were all world class is hilarious. They've been very good, but no way were all of them world class and certainly in an England jersey, pretty much none of them were.

We certainly enjoyed the rub of the green in 1966, not to mention Wembley homefield advantage thru'out

But, although the Hurst "go ahead" goal in extra time will always be debated, tho' not by Geoff, Germany's late equaliser disguised the fact that England were playing really well by the time of the Q-Final, semi and especially the Final, definitely deserved the win in the end.
And it will long be argued that the 1970 team was even better, possibly without the rub of the green.

England are definitely world class. Fact.

MontysMerkin wrote:England are definitely world class. Fact.

They are on the planet. They are one of the top 16 teams. Ergo they are world class. Logic is undeniable. Wales are also world class. Scotland are not world class. Scotland has no class.

Depends what you define as world class, Is world class a world eleven or worlds squad - 2 of each players- If so I cant imagine we have many world class players. But then you are saying in all likelihood that Spain has world class players, and they struggled at the Euros.

England are consistently good, we always tend to qualify well, and usually get past the group stages. We just always seem to falter and not make the Semis. But teams that win the big events are not always the best players, Portugal at the Euros, Greece when they won in 2004 just the best team at that tournament..

Under no definition are England world class.

Let's look at the last 4 tournaments for a start. One QF, 2x Round of 16 and one failure to get out of the group. That's not World Class under any definition. On average in recent times, England's level is to get out of the group stage, well so did lots of other countries that you could never consider World Class.

England are consistently average. They perform as well as they need to in Qualification as a lot of other ordinary teams do due to the weakness of the qualification groups, then they routinely stink the place out in tournaments.

It's not a question of whether one, none or all of your players are considered "world class", as a team, England are certainly not.

There might have been a time when England were "world class" but it was ever such a long time ago.

Spain are ranked lower than England. Incorrect. Although we'll now hear from the world expert on all things how the rankings don't reflect performances or some such. Maybe to be world class you have to think ABE. Scotland are ranked 67th, just above UAE Sour grapes from small minds...

Who is world class?

Sorry but I thought this was a golf forum and this thread was a tribute to Simon Hobday. Have I strayed onto the football pages?

Is it based on tournament cycles?

Are the World Class teams:

Germany
Chile
Portugal

Or do we include

France
Argentina as runners up in the last events.

Whats the criteria?

MontysMerkin wrote:Spain are ranked lower than England. Although we'll now hear from the world expert on all things how the rankings don't reflect performances or some such. Maybe to be world class you have to think ABE. Sour grapes from small minds...

In terms of rankings of all sports, Football rankings are probably among the least representative. That's not really up for debate, no one has ever really taken football rankings seriously. Switzerland were ranked higher than a lot of teams (and are ranked higher than England) for a long time, but are they world class due to it? Would anyone consider Argentina to be the best team in the world right now? Doubt it. Are Wales world class because they are ranked higher than England?

My point is that if you consider England to be World Class, then you have to base it on something, and given the recent history of England, you'd have to consider rather a lot of teams who have got to the same stages to also be world class, but can you really consider such teams world class? Averaging getting to the last 16 hardly makes you world class.

I don't really see why people can't see what England are, a second rate nation. Is it that hard to accept that they are no longer one of the big teams?

It's not an ABE thing, it's simply being realistic of where England are in terms of world football, and they are certainly NOT one of the worlds top teams.

I honestly dont think international football teams are world class, in the general terms of being the best. International football is so far behind club football. Current "World Champions" are Real Madrid, That team is better than the Portugal team from the Euros and probably better than the German team that won the world cup. The latter stages of the Champions league is better than the latter stages of the Euro champs and maybe even the world cup.

You're right about that, but some international teams are better than others indicating there are levels of class between nations.

Real/Barca/Bayern would beat every nation. In fact, i'd quite like to see that.

Obviously you're restricted by nationality so you'll never be as good as a club with unlimited money and the world population to pick from.

super_realist wrote:You're right about that, but some international teams are better than others

It's insightful thinking like this that really does spur on debate. Great point well made

Christ Monty, If you take it out of context it looks silly, not like you to do that

There are world class international teams, and then there is England.