Ranking the Heavyweights by their greatest win.....

Taking in factors like peak, talent, magnitude and manner of victory....

1. Joe Frazier.........................Ali
2. Max Schmelling..................Louis
3. Muhammad Ali...................Foreman
4. George Foreman.................Frazier
5. Bob Fitzsimmons................Corbett
6. Riddick Bowe.....................Holyfield
7. Buster Douglas...................Tyson
8. Gene Tunney.......................Dempsey
9. Michael Spinks....................Holmes
10. James Corbett...................Sullivan
11. Tyson Fury........................Wlad...........
12. Trevor Berbick...................Thomas

In my humblest of humble opinion.

Good list Truss, would include Holyfield win over Bowe, Tyson. The greatest P4P Sam Langford's win over Wills has to be mentioned and deserves a place.

Cheers.

Interesting list, Truss.  

I think the top 3 are pretty much nailed on and probably in that order, but I'd be inclined to put Douglas' win over Tyson into the top 5.

Ali probably deserves to be in there twice - the second for Liston I.  

Also think there may need to be room for Johnson v Jeffries.  Jeffries nowhere near his peak, but the magnitude of the victory was possibly the most significant of all time.  

Liston over Patterson possibly also worthy of a mention due to the manner.

Louis over Schmeling probably deserves to be in their for the same reason Fly, Braddock against Baer would be above Fury and Berbick too.

McCall or Rahman deserve a place for their wins against Lewis ? and Moorer over Holyfield. I think Foreman deserves another spot for his remarkable win over Moorer.

Nice to see you back Super - have you come out of retirement ?

Cheers.

Rodney wrote:Good list Truss, would include Holyfield win over Bowe, Tyson. The greatest P4P Sam Langford's win over Wills has to be mentioned and deserves a place.

Cheers.

Spot on Rod Holy's win should be there..Langford was never champ.

Though he should have been.

Forgot to put champ in the title..So you're right about Langford too.

Ali definitely deserves Liston in there too.

I think Lennox Lewis v Vitali deserves a mention. At the time it was seen as just a very good win for Lewis, but in hindsight it's a great win. Vitali hardly lost a round after that fight and imo is a better heavyweight than his brother.

Would Foreman's best win perhaps be when he made his comeback to be a world champion in 1990s. While I agree that the opposition wasn't the best - given his age it was pretty special.

I don't know if I'm sure of that or not but perhaps worthy of discussion (or not)?

Pedro147 wrote:Would Foreman's best win perhaps be when he made his comeback to be a world champion in 1990s. While I agree that the opposition wasn't the best - given his age it was pretty special.

I don't know if I'm sure of that or not but perhaps worthy of discussion (or not)?

Yeah it's definitely worthy. Oldest champ ever (at the time) and a massive underdog. Great win, but Frazier 1 is still his best.

AdamT wrote:

Pedro147 wrote:Would Foreman's best win perhaps be when he made his comeback to be a world champion in 1990s. While I agree that the opposition wasn't the best - given his age it was pretty special.

I don't know if I'm sure of that or not but perhaps worthy of discussion (or not)?

Yeah it's definitely worthy. Oldest champ ever (at the time) and a massive underdog. Great win, but Frazier 1 is still his best.

Depends if you rate Moorer and you discount he was getting hammered.

Not for me.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

Pedro147 wrote:Would Foreman's best win perhaps be when he made his comeback to be a world champion in 1990s. While I agree that the opposition wasn't the best - given his age it was pretty special.

I don't know if I'm sure of that or not but perhaps worthy of discussion (or not)?

Yeah it's definitely worthy. Oldest champ ever (at the time) and a massive underdog. Great win, but Frazier 1 is still his best.

Depends if you rate Moorer and you discount he was getting hammered.

Not for me.

Performance was sh1t, but a wins a win. Moorer isn't Ali, but was young, Prime and beat good heavies.

Rodney wrote:McCall or Rahman deserve a place for their wins against Lewis ? and Moorer over Holyfield. I think Foreman deserves another spot for his remarkable win over Moorer.

Nice to see you back Super - have you come out of retirement ?

Cheers.

Thanks Rodney - just a short visit to pass the time on a Friday afternoon.

Hope all well with you!

If the criteria is "factors like peak, talent, magnitude and manner of victory" then you could make a strong argument for Foreman-Frazier being the best.

Peak - Frazier had beaten Ali only a couple of fights earlier in a victory ranked number 1 by many on this thread. He was clearly at his peak.
Talent - As above.
Magnitude - Sufficient that people were genuinely fearful for Ali before Rumble in the Jungle.
Manner of victory - As comprehensive as a fight between two top heavyweights has ever been. Ali's victory over Foreman is rated so highly precisely because of Foreman's dominance over Frazier.

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:If the criteria is "factors like peak, talent, magnitude and manner of victory" then you could make a strong argument for Foreman-Frazier being the best.

Peak - Frazier had beaten Ali only a couple of fights earlier in a victory ranked number 1 by many on this thread. He was clearly at his peak.
Talent - As above.
Magnitude - Sufficient that people were genuinely fearful for Ali before Rumble in the Jungle.
Manner of victory - As comprehensive as a fight between two top heavyweights has ever been. Ali's victory over Foreman is rated so highly precisely because of Foreman's dominance over Frazier.

You make a compelling case and you maybe right.........Just that I don't see Frazier as being as talented as Ali and Louis when they were beat.......Also the fact Foreman had so thoroughly destroyed Norton and Frazier who would be regarded as great heavies put Ali at 3.........

But out of all the Top 10 it was as big a slap as any....

Having Foreman number 1.....Is valid for sure pal..

It's all about opinions..

For over-achievement, I'd say Schmelling... He was a thinker and devised a plan to beat Louis long before they met. (If anyone's interested, I'll try and scan of an interview of Max's where he discusses it...)Berbick met an old man and lucked in...he shouldn't be on the list...my granny could have beaten that version of Ali...

Hang on a minute. Corbett beating Sullivan.Corbett was a hell of a boxer but there are so many caveats to that performance, it's ridiculous... !

Because he had to wear gloves ??..

If you want to go into more detail... I'm happy to read it...

Berbick was older than Thomas......

Mostly it is that Sullivan had taken his body to the well and back ,via the good old boozer,like the Irish American he was.He really had retired a good two years previously,except that there were of course no official announcements of retirements in those days, not if you could spin out your "Worlds champion" title reign for one last payday! A prizefight was officially sanctioned,but Sullivan was not say given 100 days or whatever to defend his title.I think that it was generally assumed that John L was no longer in the game.In his hayday he was a scary physical specimen but towards the last two of his ten year reign he was obese..Like Mike post-prison,or Ali post 1975,he was relying more on his ringmanship and punching power and not his uncanny reflexes or stamina.So it is *fairly* much a given that Corbett would not have lasted with prime Sullivan.Adam Pollock certainly said as much and he is the go-to guy for these old-timers.He wrote about Corbett exhaustively so when he says that Corbett was not really in John L's league,I am inclined to agree
Corbett's victory is certainly 'up there'in the context of "Which heavyweight fights carry the most significance"-as any fule no, Corbett's silky skills were the perfect counterblast to the apparently (And I use that word advisedly)cruder Sullivan....sadly Sullivan carried on too long,but we should remember that be was undefeated so that it was literally unimaginable to the wider world that Sullivan could lose a prizefight!He cashed -in to the max on cheap paydays and hanging out with VIP's (hi there,Amir).Considering that he was physically in the 'short and stocky' mould by today's standards,I'm surprised that Sullivan strung out his career for as long as he did.To again quote Pollock...he was the full package....Corbett didn't bring much to the table after his win....as Run DMC said to that guy who remixed them......."okay.Now play it again,Sam."

There is an Ariel photo of the Sullivan/Corbett fight and Sullivan does not look in fighting shape.Accounts said that Corbett was able to play at the matador,easily foiling Sullivan's rushes.Sullivan had fought elusive nippy guys plenty of times and always managed to figure them out.The ones like Kilrain,who trumpeted how they would humiliate him,often ended up in tears and missing teeth.Final thoughts;Sullivan didn't fight without gloves for the vast majority of his fights.He didn't like London Prize rules because he knew that his fists were his livelihood and wanted to protect them.(Another candidate for "most significant in boxing history"type threads!)
Cheers
Anders

1. Frazier (Ali)
2. Ali (Foreman)
3. Foreman (Frazier)
4. Norton (Ali)
5. Schmeling (Louis)
6. Douglas (Tyson)
7. Bowe (Holyfield)
8. Marciano (Charles)
9. Young (Foreman)
10. Liston (Patterson)
11. Lewis (Holyfield)
12. Spinks (Holmes)

Others: Louis (Schmeling), Holyfield (Bowe), Langford (Wills), Willard (Johnson), Tunney (Dempsey), Rahman (Lewis), Walcott (Charles), Charles (Walcott).

Lewis beating Holy was a good - ish result IMO. two guys with awesome talent producing 23 rounds of snore-draw though.....one man couldn't box any more,and the other wouldn't...

Not a surprise but a fantastic win, though after the draw (which he handily won), perhaps the prestige of winning the rematch wouldn't of been as high.

andygf wrote:Lewis beating Holy was a good - ish result IMO. two guys with awesome talent producing 23 rounds of snore-draw though.....one man couldn't box any more,and the other wouldn't...

Holyfield's last top performance (the rematch). He really fought well (and had Lewis badly hurt at one point - rubber legged and grinning like he was against Rahman before Rahman lowered the boom).

A win over a great heavy who, though past his very best, was really good on the night.

I cant have Patterson as Listons greatest win. Liston's wins over Cleveland Williams were huge at the time and far more impressive, Williams was a monster and expected to blow everyone in the division away including Liston. This was not the post car accident shell of Williams that Ali fought and or the tired old injury ridden Liston crippled with back problems that roll over for Ali. This was the 2 best heavyweights in the world at their peaks smashing into each other and producing an absolute classic. Patterson avoided Williams every bit as much as he avoided Liston and Williams would have put Patterson away just as quick as Sonny.

hogey wrote:I cant have Patterson as Listons greatest win. Liston's wins over Cleveland Williams were huge at the time and far more impressive, Williams was a monster and expected to blow everyone in the division away including Liston. This was not the post car accident shell of Williams that Ali fought and or the tired old injury ridden Liston crippled with back problems that roll over for Ali. This was the 2 best heavyweights in the world at their peaks smashing into each other and producing an absolute classic. Patterson avoided Williams every bit as much as he avoided Liston and Williams would have put Patterson away just as quick as Sonny.

I was thinking about the opponent's historical standing (Patterson outranking Williams) and the manner of victory. Williams was bordeline top ten when he fought Liston wasn't he (in the rematch)? I get where you're coming from, Floyd was very much protected.

I prefer Liston wins over Williams than his wins over Patterson

Williams was a good heavyweight back then he'd been shot by the time he faced Ali hadn't he and he(Liston) massively outsized Patterson who looked more like a light heavy in comparison?

p.s.  don't want to make it sound like I'm having a go at Haz today

Ha, don't worry about it. I only take exception to Hammersmith Emo Kid.

I'm flattered by your continued obsession.

Obsession.....bending to my will....

606 Shades Darker

andygf wrote:Mostly it is that Sullivan had taken his body to the well and back ,via the good old boozer,like the Irish American he was.He really had retired a good two years previously,except that there were of course no official announcements of retirements in those days, not if you could spin out your "Worlds champion" title reign for one last payday! A prizefight was officially sanctioned,but Sullivan was not say given 100 days or whatever to defend his title.I think that it was generally assumed that John L was no longer in the game.In his hayday he was a scary physical specimen but towards the last two of his ten year reign he was obese..Like Mike post-prison,or Ali post 1975,he was relying more on his ringmanship and punching power and not his uncanny reflexes or stamina.So it is *fairly* much a given that Corbett would not have lasted with prime Sullivan.Adam Pollock certainly said as much and he is the go-to guy for these old-timers.He wrote about Corbett exhaustively so when he says that Corbett was not really in John L's league,I am inclined to agree
Corbett's victory is certainly 'up there'in the context of "Which heavyweight fights carry the most significance"-as any fule no, Corbett's silky skills were the perfect counterblast to the apparently (And I use that word advisedly)cruder  Sullivan....sadly Sullivan  carried on too long,but we should remember that be was undefeated so that it was literally unimaginable to the wider world that Sullivan could lose a prizefight!He cashed -in to the max on cheap paydays and hanging out with VIP's (hi there,Amir).Considering that he was physically in the 'short and stocky' mould by today's standards,I'm surprised that Sullivan strung out his career for as long as he did.To again quote Pollock...he was the full package....Corbett didn't bring much to the table after his win....as Run DMC said to that guy who remixed them......."okay.Now play it again,Sam."

Certainly an interesting and compelling argument....Not sure one historian however much he has written about his subject is a valid enough reason to believe Corbett wasn't in Sullivan's league.

Very rarely meet a truly unbiased historian. Because they tend to write about a subject that they are "Invested" in.

O'Sullivan was the Tyson/Dempsey/Louis of his day and like Tunney and Buster you had to still go in and beat him....Many fighters like Biggs and Smith were beaten before the first bell against Tyson and I imagine John L intimidated plenty..

The mental side of Boxing is too often overlooked.

I have Fury v Wlad listed and that to me was a Champion that was past it struggling also. .

I enjoyed your post but I'm not convinced Corbett v John L doesn't belong on the list.

As for Corbett he out boxed Fitzsimmons handily for most of that fight before getting caught and to me that shows he had something to offer after John L...."Out boxed" not "out-muscled" what for some is a Top 10 ATG Fighter

Corbett is a love/hate figure....

But thanks again it was a good contribution and maybe you're right.

All about opinions..

I am not sure whether Adam Pollock is a historian per se,although he has specialised on the early heavy champs,and am not sure what his interest would be in decrying Corbett either....his biography on him is much longer than his one on Sullivan.I agree that it is "horses for courses" ,some posters don't seem to want to give Sullivan credit as a boxer which I find incredibly staggering.
With the criteria of your thread I would be interested to know people's list of,say,15, because if you can include Tunney/Dempsey,why not Johnson/Jeffries? I remember (possibly even wrongly)arguing on here,that Johnson beating a well past-it Jeffries was still a great victory,something which is not taken as a given.
Leon Spinks, he still had to fight 'The Man'. Etc...etc..
On this theme,I do believe that Fury has been given diddly squat credit for Wlad fight.Reason being,I don't think Wlad's shot at all.If I was a betting man,I'd go for another solid twelve round schooling performance against AJ.I am keen to find out,that's the eternal appeal of the heavies.Much less predictable.
If you're still awake,which Tyson performance would you rate as his best.....?I'm leaning towards Bruno 1....

Hi Andy, good stuff between you and Truss. Mind if I barge my way in?

For Tyson's best performances, I tend to go with a couple which generally don't get that many mentions; his showings against Tony Tucker and Tyrell Biggs. Probably because they weren't just the double-quick demolition jobs that most Tyson fanatics salivate over and showed that he was more than just a vicious banger in that fabled 'prime' of his.

Tucker jolted him with that uppercut early on and gave him some stylistic problems. Unlike the Smith fight not long before, however, Tyson kept a cool and mature head and accepted that the fight was likely to go long, and set about totally outboxing and timing Tucker, which he promptly did. It wasn't a particularly exciting fight, but it showed that Tyson had better ring smarts than some would give him credit for.

As for the Biggs fight, well that one was a little more brutal and punishing, but it was matched with real ring craft, too. It was a beatdown and a defensive masterclass all in one. Tyson's ability to carry the fight and walk his man down while taking very few clean shots at the same time was never better demonstrated than in that fight. Biggs was brave beyond the call of duty but he got the very best version of Tyson, for me. Much more imagination and variation than in some of his other performances such as Pinklon Thomas, and great head movement and timing to take Biggs' jab away from him.

Wonderful performance with a big of everything from Tyson, very similar to Joe Louis' job on Carnera in how he went about getting to the bigger man, mixing between the head and body and avoiding shots while coming in. Great stuff.

To be honest, I didn't think the Bruno win was a particularly great performance. Tyson was criticised for uncharacteristic sloppiness after the fight and seemed more flat-footed than usual (more impatient). I get where you're coming from in terms of him coming back from being slightly rocked to overwhelm a bigger, stronger opponent, though.

While Spinks and Holmes are probably his most meaningful wins, his best performance, for me, was Berbick. Tyson was absolutely perfect that night against a big, cocky, world titlist in Berbick, who came to win (not always a given in Tyson fights). The controlled demolition job he did that night with his jab and left hook was awe-inspiring.

Props, too, for the Ruddock wins. Though already past his peak, Tyson went toe to toe with a big, jackhammer punching opponent. Food for though next time someone argues he was a flat track bully who folded when hit back (he did become something approaching that much further down the line).

Watching footage of a young Tyson sparring: what I'd give to see a heavyweight with that much talent again. We may never.

andygf wrote:I am not sure whether Adam Pollock is a historian per se,although he has specialised  on the early heavy champs,and am not sure what his interest would be in decrying Corbett either....his biography on him is much longer than his one on Sullivan.I agree that it is "horses for courses" ,some posters don't seem to want to give Sullivan credit as a boxer which I find incredibly staggering.
With the criteria of your thread I would be interested to know people's list of,say,15, because if you can include Tunney/Dempsey,why not Johnson/Jeffries? I remember (possibly  even wrongly)arguing on here,that Johnson beating a well past-it Jeffries was still a great victory,something which is not taken as a given.
Leon Spinks, he still had to fight 'The Man'. Etc...etc..
On this theme,I do believe that Fury has been given diddly squat credit for Wlad fight.Reason being,I don't think Wlad's shot at all.If I was a betting man,I'd go for another solid twelve round schooling performance against AJ.I am keen to find out,that's the eternal appeal of the heavies.Much less predictable.
If you're still awake,which Tyson performance would you rate as his best.....?I'm leaning towards Bruno 1....

Ali wasn't really the man against Spinks really was he ??............He was a faded legend fighting on memory. Got a gift against Young in many eyes and against Norton in Yankee stadium. Shavers as well caused him problems. As for Johnson v Jeffries...I'd say Johnson was probably the 3rd greatest Heavy ever in his prime.....

Sullivan was 33 coming off a three year layoff as opposed to Jeffries 37 coming off a six year layoff for Jack....

It's horses for courses and I see your point...........As for historians and respected figures I once read a Ferdie Pacheco book where he remarked if Ezzard Charles had fought Louis earlier he'd have been a one round bum of the month......Pretty poor dismissal of a great fighter right there...

I think the one I might have missed on the list is Jeffries v Johnson..........Think if Fury v Wlad is included and Corbett v John L maybe that is a glaring omission....

Or maybe not depending on whether you think it was genuine....I think it was...

Tyson's best win is a tough one.........Bruno and Tucker both staggered him but saying that I'd pick Bruno to clean up now.....Haven't seen many fighters outbox Lewis...Had a very good jab did Frank just couldn't relax.

Spinks is the best on paper but I'd probably go with Larry !!.............Won the rematch with Spinks clearly in my opinion and would give Evander problems and out box Mercer after Mike...

Interesting question............Biggs should have been but he never came on....Maybe the heroin and coke killed his talent..

88Chris05 wrote:Hi Andy, good stuff between you and Truss. Mind if I barge my way in?

For Tyson's best performances, I tend to go with a couple which generally don't get that many mentions; his showings against Tony Tucker and Tyrell Biggs. Probably because they weren't just the double-quick demolition jobs that most Tyson fanatics salivate over and showed that he was more than just a vicious banger in that fabled 'prime' of his.

Tucker jolted him with that uppercut early on and gave him some stylistic problems. Unlike the Smith fight not long before, however, Tyson kept a cool and mature head and accepted that the fight was likely to go long, and set about totally outboxing and timing Tucker, which he promptly did. It wasn't a particularly exciting fight, but it showed that Tyson had better ring smarts than some would give him credit for.

As for the Biggs fight, well that one was a little more brutal and punishing, but it was matched with real ring craft, too. It was a beatdown and a defensive masterclass all in one. Tyson's ability to carry the fight and walk his man down while taking very few clean shots at the same time was never better demonstrated than in that fight. Biggs was brave beyond the call of duty but he got the very best version of Tyson, for me. Much more imagination and variation than in some of his other performances such as Pinklon Thomas, and great head movement and timing to take Biggs' jab away from him.

Wonderful performance with a big of everything from Tyson, very similar to Joe Louis' job on Carnera in how he went about getting to the bigger man, mixing between the head and body and avoiding shots while coming in. Great stuff.

Valid choices. But Biggs was coming off Bey and a dreadful performance. He was basically hammered for five rounds and won the lottery in the sixth !!...Bet to this day Bey is wondering how he lost !!..

The performance before that he struggled with Renaldo Snipes and if memory serves correctly The Ring scored it for Mr Snipes....Cracking right hand knockdown by Biggs not withstanding.....

Both Bey and Snipes (At least by that time) were trialhorses........But like you say Tyson showed great side to side movement, footwork and an arsenal of punches.....

Funnily enough Tucker and Biggs were two of a kind....Both got lost to drugs and both could have been Gold medallists had the US not boycotted Moscow (I think Tucker was a light heavy then and Slobodan Kacar won gold)..

Won everything there was to win as an Amateur did Tony......

Remember also that Tucker was supposed to fly with half of the olympic team for a competition in Germany when he waited behind for his Dad who hadn't turned up..... missed the plane and the plane crashed killing all on board.....

Had another but lesser lucky break against Buster when Douglas seemed to give up whilst outboxing Tony..

Tucker and Biggs were wasted talents....Were they Tyson's best wins.....Maybe !!...

Nice to see you on here....Hope you're well.

I remember watching the Tyrrell Biggs fight.I had seen Hearns/Leonard ii,and no doubt a few Bruno BBC fights.But it was shocking in the extreme compared to anything else I'd seen.Mike looked as if he was punishing him for fun,which actually,he was!The post-fight interview was a belter,too.He mimicked the involuntary sounds of pain that Biggs was supposed to have been making.I know that it's a bit of a chestnut here whether Iron Mike was all he was cracked up to be;it's good to hear validation that, hang on,he was something very special,and no amount of argument will convince me that ,when on his game,I can't really see many heavies beating him.I guess that ,say Holmes,you had consistency,and with Lennox,you had the whole skillset and a thunderous overhand.But they did have plenty of mundane fights and whilst I would rank them higher than I would Mike,I firmly believe that on his day,utilising the D'amato defensive tricks that Chris alluded to,he was inpenetrable as well as a pain-machine.
Truss you could write a fine essay on the 80s heavy scene.Has there been any discussion on the subject of boxing posters putting a book of essays together?If we could smoke out Tino,and a few others,it would be quite a time.

andygf wrote:I remember watching the Tyrrell Biggs fight.I had seen Hearns/Leonard ii,and no doubt a few Bruno BBC fights.But it was shocking in the extreme compared to anything else I'd seen.Mike looked as if he was punishing him for fun,which actually,he was!The post-fight interview was a belter,too.He mimicked the involuntary sounds of pain that Biggs was supposed to have been making.I know that it's a bit of a chestnut here whether Iron Mike was all he was cracked up to be;it's good to hear validation that, hang on,he was something very special,and no amount of argument will convince me that ,when on his game,I can't really see many heavies beating him.I guess that ,say Holmes,you had consistency,and with Lennox,you had the whole skillset and a thunderous overhand.But they did have plenty of mundane fights and whilst I would rank them higher than I would Mike,I firmly believe that on his day,utilising the D'amato defensive tricks that Chris alluded to,he was inpenetrable as well as  a pain-machine.
Truss you could write a fine essay on the 80s heavy scene.Has there been any discussion on the subject of boxing posters putting a book of essays together?If we could smoke out Tino,and a few others,it would be quite a time.

Great era to grow up in...Always loved the Heavy division....Tyson had the greatest killer instinct I ever saw along with Ayala jr who was a big loss to 80s Boxing.

Poor old Bruno was nearly killed on those ropes..More scandalous refereeing by Steele...

Had a great jab did Biggs unfortunately he had a crap right hand to go with it....A propensity to move his head to the right when punching also was noticed by Tyson and others.

Story has it after Snipes and Bey they rushed him into Tyson because "main events" viewed him as an accident waiting to happen.

After Tyson he was fodder...

Pick him to beat Wilder though...He would have worried Wlad as well.

A step below Lewis and Bowe though.

Yes I was lucky to be a fan in the 80s...Sadly I think I caught the last great era.