Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

First topic message reminder :



An interesting piece of analysis of the final 10 minutes of France vs Wales in the 6N in the blog post below, where 3 of the 11 offences spotted by the author were actually pinged

https://theblitzdefence.wordpress.com/2017/03/24/why-professional-rugby-is-impossible-to-referee/

The overall conclusion is an interesting one - thoughts?

"Given the number of offences by each side that are ignored by the officials, we can easily see how supporters end up feeling their team has been hard done by and then blame the referee.

There isn’t an easy solution to the problem. The 3 possibilities are:

i) coaches and players back off and stop offending so frequently – which isn’t likely to happen given the win at all costs of modern rugby

ii) the officials start to penalise more offences

iii) we move towards the american football model of officiating, with a number of officials looking at different types of offences at any time"

beshocked wrote:No I don't think it's impossible - just needs to be some consistency.

Personally I think as long as a ref gets most of the calls correct then there is no issue.

Each fan is going to have different views on refs. Worst performance from TMO and ref I've seen was the 2013-14 AP final. It genuinely felt like 17 vs 15. In a big game to repeatedly the big 50-50 to 1 team - it's still baffling to me.  Getting try after try chalked off but the opposition gets 2 tries that shouldn't have been awarded, just incredible.

On a Yes or No try for no clear grounding to be awarded a try - never seen it since, worst piece of officiating I've seen.

Referees and TMOs must be held accountable for poor performances just as players are.

Was happy with that performance TBH. Just one team had the mentality to perform when the pressure was on.

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Each fan is going to have different views on refs. Worst performance from TMO and ref I've seen was the 2013-14 AP final. It genuinely felt like 17 vs 15. In a big game to repeatedly the big 50-50 to 1 team - it's still baffling to me.  Getting try after try chalked off but the opposition gets 2 tries that shouldn't have been awarded, just incredible.

On a Yes or No try for no clear grounding to be awarded a try - never seen it since, worst piece of officiating I've seen.

Referees and TMOs must be held accountable for poor performances just as players are.

The fact that your team was involved and lost, makes you a biased participant in any discussion on the officiating.

There will be an element of bias yes but when you analyse the key decisions you must step back.

I have no issue with a try being chalked off for a forward pass if it is applied to both teams. Unfortunately in that particularly game it did not. Try chalked off for a forward pass for team 1 but try awarded from a forward pass for team 2 = no consistency.

Try chalked off for obstruction by team 1 but team 2 awarded a try on a yes or no question to the TMO when the ball cannot be seen (something I've never seen since) = no consistency.

When the consequence is 2 tries perhaps justifiably chalked off but the opposition is awarded 2 tries which they shouldn't have it inevitably leaves a bitter taste in the mouth.

Human error happens but when the officiating is so poor. Come on.... as a consequence I have no respect for either the tmo or ref.


I know you frequently show disdain for me Londontiger but even you must see why I would feel aggrieved. It is not bias. It is clear cut poor officiating.

Scottrf of course you'll be pleased - Graham Hughes and J P Doyle were heavily biased towards Saints.

Happy to beaten fair and square. Most of the time when I've seen my side lose I cannot blame the officials but in that particular game it was J P Doyle and Graham Hughes who handed Saints the victory - quite literally in the case of Hughes.

It's not even sour grapes or bias. It's not even debatable - Saracens were robbed.

It's those kind of poor officiating that are a blight on the game.

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:No I don't think it's impossible - just needs to be some consistency.

Personally I think as long as a ref gets most of the calls correct then there is no issue.

Each fan is going to have different views on refs. Worst performance from TMO and ref I've seen was the 2013-14 AP final. It genuinely felt like 17 vs 15. In a big game to repeatedly the big 50-50 to 1 team - it's still baffling to me.  Getting try after try chalked off but the opposition gets 2 tries that shouldn't have been awarded, just incredible.

On a Yes or No try for no clear grounding to be awarded a try - never seen it since, worst piece of officiating I've seen.

Referees and TMOs must be held accountable for poor performances just as players are.

Was happy with that performance TBH. Just one team had the mentality to perform when the pressure was on.

Reverse of what I said to B. Your team was involved and won, thus impossible to be impartial.

Two changes needed one by the referee and one by the players.

In a recent Exeter game where they were attacking Harry Williams flew through the air like an Exocet no part of his body was in contact with ground.
Landed on the far side of the ruck flat on his belly.
Not punished - going off your feet at the ruck has to punished.

Players are increasingly hollering at referees or constantly badgering them
Billy Vunipola com pletely lost it recently - should have been 10 mins in the bin.
I also remember the referee in the Aviva with the double barrelled name being constantly harangued by Hartley in, what may have been his first game, totally unacceptable.

LondonTiger wrote:Reverse of what I said to B. Your team was involved and won, thus impossible to be impartial.

To be honest I have no memory of the refereeing performance. I think I can be near-impartial though, normally blame our terrible play rather than the ref.

geoff999rugby wrote:I also remember the referee in the Aviva with the double barrelled name being constantly harangued by Hartley in, what may have been his first game, totally unacceptable.

I remember that, and Hartley and Dickson did seem to be bullying Maxwell-Keys which may well have contributed to the decision to issue Nathan Hughes with a red card (a decision later rescinded).

geoff I agree there must be more respect for the ref but to be honest sometimes the players are right.

Do you accept refs make mistakes, ignore poor officiating or do you hold refs,tmos accountable?

I think more of both has to be done.

I agree about Billy V - he was acting like a petulant child. On the other hand if players feel like refs aren't doing their jobs properly they'll be annoyed.

Both must be addressed.

I scrutinised Barnes more in the Ireland-Wales game to try and understand why the Irish dislike him.

Personally I thought Barnes in general was pretty good, Irish fans will focus on Barnes penalising Henshaw when Best could have pushed over. Barnes was not to blame. Ireland just weren't creating enough in attack.

The beef with Barnes was Wales committed 3 Offences in the red zone no card.
Ireland committed their first offence - yellow card.
No problem with the Henshaw decision he simply made a silly error.
We need to do all we can to improve referee quality but we need to stop players haranguing referees regardless otherwise we will go the way of soccer

geoff999rugby wrote:The beef with Barnes was Wales committed 3 Offences in the red zone no card.
Ireland committed their first offence - red card.

Like in general in Ireland games he referees, he gave more penalties to Ireland than the opposition but lets forget that.

What has that got to do with the price of eggs ???

Ireland are a very smart team at the breakdown and they know when they really need to risk slowing ball down. You make that choice and you get the consequences. ..or you're ritchie mccaw.

geoff999rugby wrote:What has that got to do with the price of eggs ???

If a ref was cheating against you, you'd think he would penalise you more? But he never does for Ireland despite him being blamed for losses before they happen.

Scottrf wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The beef with Barnes was Wales committed 3 Offences in the red zone no card.
Ireland committed their first offence - red card.

Like in general in Ireland games he referees, he gave more penalties to Ireland than the opposition but lets forget that.

Ireland always receive more penalties than their opposition as that is how they play, however, when Barnes refs Ireland are penalised significantly more often than when other refs ref Ireland. He tends to card Ireland quicker than the opposition too. All you have to do is look at the trends to see there is something amiss with Barnes.

Never said he was cheating merely pointing out 3 welsh offences in the red zone no card
First Ireland offence in the red zone - yellow card.

That was frustrating

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The beef with Barnes was Wales committed 3 Offences in the red zone no card.
Ireland committed their first offence - red card.

Like in general in Ireland games he referees, he gave more penalties to Ireland than the opposition but lets forget that.

Ireland always receive more penalties than their opposition as that is how they play, however, when Barnes refs Ireland are penalised significantly more often than when other refs ref Ireland.

So are the opposition. You'd have to prove that the ratio is worse than other referees for that to be significant.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The beef with Barnes was Wales committed 3 Offences in the red zone no card.
Ireland committed their first offence - red card.

Like in general in Ireland games he referees, he gave more penalties to Ireland than the opposition but lets forget that.

Ireland always receive more penalties than their opposition as that is how they play, however, when Barnes refs Ireland are penalised significantly more often than when other refs ref Ireland. All you have to do is look at the trends to see there is something amiss with Barnes.

Actually Ireland and France are the 2 least-penalised teams in international rugby (in terms of penalties issued per match)

Geoff if you honestly expect a card for a pen in the red zone everyone there'd be no one left on the pitch!

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The beef with Barnes was Wales committed 3 Offences in the red zone no card.
Ireland committed their first offence - red card.

Like in general in Ireland games he referees, he gave more penalties to Ireland than the opposition but lets forget that.

Ireland always receive more penalties than their opposition as that is how they play, however, when Barnes refs Ireland are penalised significantly more often than when other refs ref Ireland. All you have to do is look at the trends to see there is something amiss with Barnes.

Actually Ireland and France are the 2 least-penalised teams in international rugby (in terms of penalties issued per match)

Yes I know thats my point. When Barnes refs our penalty count increases above our average and the opposition penalty count is about the same.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The beef with Barnes was Wales committed 3 Offences in the red zone no card.
Ireland committed their first offence - red card.

Like in general in Ireland games he referees, he gave more penalties to Ireland than the opposition but lets forget that.

Ireland always receive more penalties than their opposition as that is how they play, however, when Barnes refs Ireland are penalised significantly more often than when other refs ref Ireland. All you have to do is look at the trends to see there is something amiss with Barnes.

Actually Ireland and France are the 2 least-penalised teams in international rugby (in terms of penalties issued per match)

Yes I know thats my point. When Barnes refs our penalty count increases above our average and the opposition penalty count is about the same.

So effectively what you meant was
"Ireland generally receive less penalties than their opposition as that is how they play*, however, when Barnes refs Ireland are penalised significantly more often than when other refs ref Ireland. All you have to do is look at the trends to see there is something amiss with Barnes."?

Stylistically he tends to ping more at the breakdown than Owens for example, which is where Ireland seem to get caught.


*Playing "clean" or playing "clever" being up to the biases of the viewer  

7 1/2 changed it to yellow posting error.

Wales three offences no card, Ireland one offence yellow card

No thats not what I meant. When I say receive a penalty that means get a penalty because the opposition has infringed.

Ireland tend to get pinged by Barnes at the breakdown because it is very easy to justify a breakdown penalty against any side at nearly every breakdown not because Ireland infringe more than other sides at the breakdown. If we did why dont other refs penalise Ireland a lot at the break down too?

Killing the ball that obviously near the try line and you could well be given a yellow card.

Though saying that I think there should be more consistency on yellow cards.

I thought Jackson Wray was unlucky to be yellow carded for a challenge vs Munster, the player was falling but ultimately it didn't become an important incident because Munster failed to capitalise.

Still think the tackling law is a bit inconsistent. Technically a player could duck and if you take them high, the tackler would be punished. Is it really the fault of the tackler?

If Player X slips then obviously Player Y might hit them high, not purposely but by accident.

I do think the laws in general need a bit more consistency. Easier to say than done though.

Crooked lineouts are also still a thing.

Yeah the numbers are fine but only give part of the story. Are you saying that a penalty in the red zone(what anywhere with ten yards of the line?) Should be a yellow geoff?

No but after three offences, in fairly quick succession, I do think Wales should have had a player in the bin

About what time in the match, do you remember? I'll have to go back and watch on YouTube.

Well it was the first half all before 30 mins I believe.
Sexton got his yellow card near the end of the first half and all three Welsh offences were before that.
I have no problem with Sextons yellow but Wales should have been pinged for repeat offences

I think the Sexton yellow was harsh. Im not sure other refs would have been as quick to card it.

It was but if Wales had been punished as well I would be ok with it.
It is the contrast that seems unreasonable to me

This was Sexton laid on the ball just short of the line yes?

No 7&1/2 wrote:This was Sexton laid on the ball just short of the line yes?

Sexton was on the bottom of the ruck under 3 Welsh players. Not sure he would have been able to get out of the ruck even if he wanted to.

Yeah that's the problem when your fly half is making last ditch tackles on the line. They're going to fall the wrong way, I would say cynically in this instance, and get a bit of a rest.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah that's the problem when your fly half is making last ditch tackles on the line. They're going to fall the wrong way, I would say cynically in this instance, and get a bit of a rest.

Usually when its done cynically the tackler ends up on top of the ball, in this case Sexton was on the bottom with the tackled player on top of him. Id say Wales were the ones milking it.

I don't think many would agree with you.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't think many would agree with you.

So you think when you are trying to kill the ball the norm is to end up underneath the tackled player?

Its classic Barnes for me. You can justify penalising it but most wouldn't.

Blocking the ball on the line is always going to end up a yellow. Fall the other side.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Blocking the ball on the line is always going to end up a yellow. Fall the other side.

Are you suggesting Wales should have been carded for blocking their own ball? They were the ones lying on the ball not Sexton. He was underneath the tackled player.

Sexton was blocking. But if you think that was harsh I see where you're coming from when judging refs.

I mean maybe he was but it is much less likely when he is underneath the player he is meant to be blocking as such I dont think most refs would even have penalised it. I also think that the Welsh guys could have recycled it if they really wanted to.

Barnes literally waited less than 1 second to penalise it and he had his hand in his pocked after two second. It was classic Barnes, he was dying to get the card out.

Yeah couldn't wait, 7 cards now to Ireland in ten 6 Nations matches!

(9 to their opponents but lets forget that)

Scottrf wrote:Yeah couldn't wait, 7 cards now to Ireland in ten 6 Nations matches!

(9 to their opponents but lets forget that)

What is your point? Ireland are the lowest penalised side in international rugby union. What were you expecting? The 7 cards is above the average for all other refs.

He couldnt wait. Watch the video and confirm otherwise.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Yeah couldn't wait, 7 cards now to Ireland in ten 6 Nations matches!

(9 to their opponents but lets forget that)

What is your point? Ireland are the lowest penalised side in international rugby union. What were you expecting? The 7 cards is above the average for all other refs.

My point is the stats don't support the bias claims and it was show Irish fans in a better light if you stopped whinging about Barnes constantly. You haven't supported your claim that 7 cards is above average and even if it was it doesn't show bias - as mentioned before it has to be a higher proportion compared to the opposition team or it could just be that he's a stricter ref. And even if that was the case he could just tend to penalise the sort of infringements Ireland make.

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Yeah couldn't wait, 7 cards now to Ireland in ten 6 Nations matches!

(9 to their opponents but lets forget that)

What is your point? Ireland are the lowest penalised side in international rugby union. What were you expecting? The 7 cards is above the average for all other refs.

My point is the stats don't support the bias claims and it was show Irish fans in a better light if you stopped whinging about Barnes constantly. You haven't supported your claim that 7 cards is above average and even if it was it doesn't show bias - as mentioned before it has to be a higher proportion compared to the opposition team or it could just be that he's a stricter ref. And even if that was the case he could just tend to penalise the sort of infringements Ireland make.

I think its more a case of you not understanding the claims or pretending not to understand them.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Yeah couldn't wait, 7 cards now to Ireland in ten 6 Nations matches!

(9 to their opponents but lets forget that)

What is your point? Ireland are the lowest penalised side in international rugby union. What were you expecting? The 7 cards is above the average for all other refs.

He couldnt wait. Watch the video and confirm otherwise.

But how many cards do other ref's give Ireland's opponents? Because if Ireland average 4 yellows every 10 games and their opposition average 5 cards every 10 games, then Barnes is pretty much bang on the average, just a lot more card happy in general.

That interpretation fits with your impression of Ireland (that they are one of the least penalised teams, and I'm sure it can be backed up with stats) and my impression of Barnes, he does go to his whistle a lot more than other referees.

You could start arguing a case for bias if Ireland's opponents averaged 1 yellow card per game and Ireland averaged 1 yellow card every 2 games, except when Barnes was reffing and the two numbers are brought closer.

But if you're just going to do it on numbers there would have to be quite a bit more analysis to prove there are no other variables in play and that it isn't just a randomly occurring phenomenon.

Had a look geoff but I'm not sure which 3 quick pens for Ireland in the red zone you mean. Narrow it down. You were wrong on the 1 pen 1 yellow though. They were already playing advantage for hands on the ball when Sexton slows.it down on the line.

robbo277 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Yeah couldn't wait, 7 cards now to Ireland in ten 6 Nations matches!

(9 to their opponents but lets forget that)

What is your point? Ireland are the lowest penalised side in international rugby union. What were you expecting? The 7 cards is above the average for all other refs.

He couldnt wait. Watch the video and confirm otherwise.

But how many cards do other ref's give Ireland's opponents? Because if Ireland average 4 yellows every 10 games and their opposition average 5 cards every 10 games, then Barnes is pretty much bang on the average, just a lot more card happy in general.

That interpretation fits with your impression of Ireland (that they are one of the least penalised teams, and I'm sure it can be backed up with stats) and my impression of Barnes, he does go to his whistle a lot more than other referees.

You could start arguing a case for bias if Ireland's opponents averaged 1 yellow card per game and Ireland averaged 1 yellow card every 2 games, except when Barnes was reffing and the two numbers are brought closer.

But if you're just going to do it on numbers there would have to be quite a bit more analysis to prove there are no other variables in play and that it isn't just a randomly occurring phenomenon.

Ok here you go:

Since Barnes reffed his first Ireland game v Georgia at the 2007 rugby world cup he has reffed 13 Ireland games. In that period Ireland have played 109 games and received 22 yellow cards and 2 red cards. Ireland's opponents have received 57 yellow cards and 1 red card.

Of the cards Ireland received 9 yellows and 1 red were from Barnes during which time he gave Ireland's opponents 10 yellow cards. As such he has given Ireland 3/8 of all their yellow cards over the period which works out at a yellow every 1.4 games. Ireland's average is a yellow every 4.3. As such Barnes is more than 3 times more likely to show Ireland a yellow card that the average of all other refs.

However, he has also carded our opposition more often than the average but not by the same margins. Of the 57 yellow cards shown 10 were from Barnes. Our opponents average a yellow every 1.9 games overall or every 1.3 games when Barnes refs. That works out at 1.4 times the average which is obviously a far smaller margin.

Two thing are clear from the stats. Barnes loves to get the cards out in general. This was pretty obvious for the Sexton card v Wales in this years six nations when it looked like he couldnt get it out of his pants quick enough. It was the same when he gave Heaslip a red against NZ. He is a very impulsive ref but secondly he cards Ireland much more quickly than any other ref out there and the obvious bias is surely part of the reason why Ireland have won less than a third of all games he has reffed when the overall win loss ration is 56% wins.

Good man Guns!

Now we are getting somewhere.

Can you now prove that it's not playing style related i.e. that it's not just because Barnes is stricter with the type of offenses Ireland commit compared to other refs.

Another consideration (probably has a big effect) is that Barnes refs high profile games. You're not under pressure against Fiji so fixtures like that will skew the stats because Ireland wont need to commit offenses to give away yellows, but the opponents will.

I doubt Ireland have half the number of yellows vs other top sides, minnows skew it.

rodders wrote:Good man Guns!

It never fails to amaze me how many people consider him a good ref with some many controversies and anomalies on his CV over the years.

Scottrf wrote:Now we are getting somewhere.

Can you now prove that it's not playing style related i.e. that it's not just because Barnes is stricter with the type of offenses Ireland commit compared to other refs.

Another consideration (probably has a big effect) is that Barnes refs high profile games. You're not under pressure against Fiji so fixtures like that will skew the stats because Ireland wont need to commit offenses to give away yellows, but the opponents will.

I doubt Ireland have half the number of yellows vs other top sides, minnows skew it.

Well the minnows arent carded either as often as the bigger sides when Ireland play them. They average way less cards than the bigger sides so its not that relevant. Ireland have only been carded twice against a minnows. Guess who gave them one of those the cards in his only Ireland game v a minnow?

Can you prove that Barnes isnt biased against Ireland?

You're criticising how quickly he red cards heaslip? A mere couple of minutes after he's blown his whistle after a scuffle. What does that matter in relation to deeming how good a ref he is?