England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Forgot about him, has he managed to get much game time since moving from Bristol?

Cumbrian wrote:Forgot about him, has he managed to get much game time since moving from Bristol?

No. Appeared from the bench last weekend but that's it. Prop integration can be slow.

So obviously nowhere near being the best option but has featured in the past.

So Cole starts in the AI's.....!

GeordieFalcon wrote:So Cole starts in the AI's.....!

Can't see anything else happening.

I guess the thing about punishment for an illegal act is what are the consequences? If Sinkler never does it again then you could argue that the sanction was correct. It's too easy to concentrate on the hanging and flogging aspects rather than the required end result.

Luckily Patterson was unharmed which is the main thing

Sinckler is a problem, very nearly cost the Lions a draw. Someone needs to put him straight. Be quite the front row if you have Hartley and Sinckler and Marler...though the odds on all 3 not being banned at the same time seems quite unlikely

GeordieFalcon wrote:So Cole starts in the AI's.....!

I imagine he always was.

Gwlad wrote:Sinckler is a problem, very nearly cost the Lions a draw. Someone needs to put him straight. Be quite the front row if you have Hartley and Sinckler and Marler...though the odds on all 3 not being banned at the same time seems quite unlikely

Odds on dominating the Welsh front row even if we only play 2 in the front row are huge though.

I wouldn't worry we could always bring in calm heads like genge.

Gwlad wrote:Sinckler is a problem, very nearly cost the Lions a draw. Someone needs to put him straight. Be quite the front row if you have Hartley and Sinckler and Marler...though the odds on all 3 not being banned at the same time seems quite unlikely

Your hilarious....

Gives the little Welsh lambs a chance to compete if we have each of our front row take 10 mins for a breather, you should be in favour of that front row Gwlad

Scottrf wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Sinckler is a problem, very nearly cost the Lions a draw. Someone needs to put him straight. Be quite the front row if you have Hartley and Sinckler and Marler...though the odds on all 3 not being banned at the same time seems quite unlikely

Odds on dominating the Welsh front row even if we only play 2 in the front row are huge though.

They aren't though are they petal ?

Depends if all your front row are as stupid as your hooker. The rfu are organising an exotic animals petting zoo for you in the 6ns.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends if all your front row are as stupid as your hooker. The rfu are organising an exotic animals petting zoo for you in the 6ns.

Samson Lee is at least twice as stupid

No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends if all your front row are as stupid as your hooker. The rfu are organising an exotic animals petting zoo for you in the 6ns.

Baldwin isn't first choice hooker by a long way.

Plus you have Marler, Cole and Hartley in your front row, hardly Mensa is it ?

I don't know their iq scores so couldn't tell you.

When did this turn into ‘our fatties are smarter than your fatties’ debate? They’re all forwards, they are there to drag knuckles and biff each other whilst the backs play the real game.
I was being a bit alarmist before but, we are weaker, but still not particularly weak. We could still put out a decent front row even without Marler, Harley and Sinkler.

01. Mako Vunipola
02. Jamie George
03. Dan Cole

01. Ellis Genge
02. Luke Cowan-Dickie
03. Harry Williams

You could argue that the top set is in actual fact our strongest line up anyway and I would back the one below to give all the northern hemisphere teams a good go. Do need to start bringing through a decent young hooker though.

Last time LCD played for England he made Tom Youngs look like Phil Taylor.

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends if all your front row are as stupid as your hooker. The rfu are organising an exotic animals petting zoo for you in the 6ns.

Baldwin isn't first choice hooker by a long way.

A long way? He's 2nd choice isn't he?

LCD went to pot again't france but I'm sure there was.another game he came on and nailed everything. When he burst on the scene he was iffy in the scrum and very iffy on lineout but last year he was one of the most improved players in the prem. There is a different level.of pressure playing for England but I think he can do it very well. Tbf most players coming through showing promise are now showing actual development and improvement. Very encouraging. And yes that's down to clubs and international coaching staff.

Genge I think is ready and could challenge for a squad place now depending on the type of game. Against a better scummaging side I think Jones will still prefer Marler, but against some of the weaker scrums I could see Mako/Genge as a combination.

Williams does not look to me like he can actually scrummage. I see what Jones sees in him in the loose, but presumably he is hoping that he will pick up in the tight quickly. Collier has been noticeably putting himself about around the park a lot more so far this season, so is clearly trying to get into contention.

On Sinckler my understanding is that the ban is for having made contact with the eye area while grabbing the player's scrum cap, rather than an actual gouge or attempted gouge. He'll miss the AIs but it may be good for him in the long run if he learns his lesson. I don't think Eddie will hold it against him - after all, he made Hartley captain - but if another player seizes the opportunity he'll have to take the shirt back rather than be given it.

I don't think so. If it was in the process of grabbing the scrum cap, it wouldn't be intentionally making contact with the eye.

IMO the sentence should be increased because he got a reduction for pleading guilty then made statements afterwards that it was accidental. All we actually have is people saying what they need to reduce the sentence.

I can understand that point and have found it frustrating. Recent is cane vs ireland hartley for saints. Both cases were caused due to a player slipping and the other falling after a tackle which in my mind are similar as the tackler couldnt have been expected to foresee the change in the player approach. One pleaded guilty and hen has a default ban and the other pleading innocent and got away with nothing.

Poorfour wrote: but against some of the weaker scrums I could see Mako/Genge as a combination.
.

They're both loose heads Poorfour?

Edit: Sorry do you mean starter and bench option...

BamBam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends if all your front row are as stupid as your hooker. The rfu are organising an exotic animals petting zoo for you in the 6ns.

Samson Lee is at least twice as stupid

based on what?

Gwlad wrote:

BamBam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends if all your front row are as stupid as your hooker. The rfu are organising an exotic animals petting zoo for you in the 6ns.

Samson Lee is at least twice as stupid

based on what?

What was that blokes name, came from around Regents Park way......................................... Got it now, Guy. He was a major attraction locally, well known across the world. Kids cried when he passed away.

So, Clifford may or may not be out now with a dislocated shoulder! On the + side, Sam Simmonds of Chiefs looks to be carrying on from where he was pre injury and would be my shout for an EPS call up - could even make the bench in November!
Thoughts?

Billy V, Clifford, and B.Morgan all injured at the moment.
Haskell can cover no.8 but isn't a specialist.
Will T.Harrison get another shot?

From the sounds of some of the commentary from BT at the weekend it sounds like this could be a more experimental lineup than I anticipated thus he may well test out simmonds early on. Looks nailed on haskell will be rested as well so the AI s may be a little tricky if there's going to be wholesale changes.

Haskell rested? He shouldn't be getting in the England side based on his performances in the last year.

Beast mode is a thing of the past now. Haskell has looked well off the pace.

I'm well on the record to say I agree but jones does seem to like him.

Simmonds looks tiny!
He looks like an outside centre...and runs like one.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm well on the record to say I agree but jones does seem to like him.

Same. I wouldn't discount Haskell but he does need to show he can offer more than the alternatives and I am not sure he can any more

GeordieFalcon wrote:Simmonds looks tiny!
He looks like an outside centre...and runs like one.

Everyone does next to Billy!

I think Simmonds is only 6' isn't he. Not huge as 8's go at international level .

His body seems more like openside such as McCaw or Pocock than what I would normally associate with a No.8. What is his breakdown work/link play like?

I think everyones just focused on his ball carrying to notice the other aspects of his game marra.

On another note, Poor Clifford isn't having much luck is he...?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Simmonds looks tiny!
He looks like an outside centre...and runs like one.

Watched the highlights programme and thought he was a centre! Have just looked and seen he isn't

Number 8 Yappy...that's why im saying he's small for an international 8 if he's being considered.

Fair enough, I haven't actually been able to see him play yet this season. If he is a good enough player he may just make up for his lack of size. May end up being a utility back rower though. Clifford really is unlucky, he would really have had a chance to make a claim for a spot in the 23.

Cumbrian wrote:Fair enough, I haven't actually been able to see him play yet this season. If he is a good enough player he may just make up for his lack of size. May end up being a utility back rower though. Clifford really is unlucky, he would really have had a chance to make a claim for a spot in the 23.

Its been tried, he's better on the wing

Boom boom.

Who else is there are no.8 cover?
Even Waldrom is injured at the moment. Don Armond I am sure has played 8 before.
Do either of the Currys play 8?

Nathan Hughes will start.
Clifford out
Billy V Out
Morgan out

Mark Wilson plays 8, but is not the best option...he's a grafting flanker.
Simmonds looks on fire
Beaumont..?
Harrison - How is he playing?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Harrison - How is he playing?

I would say okay - not at his best, not badly.

So not likely to be an option Scott?

Simmonds probably on the bench then if he's still pulling up trees.

I think haskell will be on the bench to cover the back row with Robshaw underhill and Hughes starting.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So not likely to be an option Scott?

Simmonds probably on the bench then if he's still pulling up trees.

I dunno. Even though I think he's a 7 and he's been playing at 7 he seems to play better at 8 with more carrying responsibility. Hard to say when you only watch 1/2 games a weekend, I would be surprised if he's in the matchday squad but not shocked at a call up.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Nathan Hughes will start.
Clifford out
Billy V Out
Morgan out

Mark Wilson plays 8, but is not the best option...he's a grafting flanker.
Simmonds looks on fire
Beaumont..?
Harrison - How is he playing?

Beaumont is out injured - medium/long term I believe

propdavid_london wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Nathan Hughes will start.
Clifford out
Billy V Out
Morgan out

Mark Wilson plays 8, but is not the best option...he's a grafting flanker.
Simmonds looks on fire
Beaumont..?
Harrison - How is he playing?

Beaumont is out injured - medium/long term I believe

Just seen it on the beeb - 3 months with a torn bicep. To be honest he had a small window to get into the team and has missed it. Never say never but I doubt he'll be in consideration again.

Question is will Sam Burgess play at 6 or 12?