England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Don't know the numbers in league.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Don't know the numbers in league.

Oooh maybe that was bomber's problem too

Signed

R Andrew

Stick to cricket rob.

So looking ahead to the AI's.
The fixture list is not as tough as it has been in the past or could be (depending on which Australia turns up)....will that play into Eddie Jones mind when he's selecting the squad...ie less 1st choice seniors (to give them a rest) and more fringe, development players?

England v Argentina - Saturday 11th 3pm KO
England v Australia - Saturday 18th November 3pm KO
England v Samoa - Saturday 25th November 3pm KO

What about something like?

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Isiekwe / Ewells
6 Robshaw
7 Underhill / Curry
8 Hughes

9 Youngs
10 Ford
11 May
12 ??
13 ??
14 Nowell / Daly
15 Watson

And is Zach Mercer an option in the back row?

Heard that Jack Nowell might be out with a cheek injury

Mercer hasn't been involved in the EPS squads yet - I think!
He could be called up to get involved with the larger squad - but unlikely to get dropped straight in.
I think its more likely to be something like this -
1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Itoje
6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Hughes

9 Youngs
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Slade
14 Daly
15 Watson

Genge, George, TightHead? (Collier/Williams), Lawes, Curry, Care, Yarde, Brown,

Looking short on no.8 cover
Yarde is there as Solomona is out of favour and injury to Nowell. Starting back line are all interchangeable and offer flexibility to cover multiple positions.

Ooops - forgot Teo - he may well start and Slade on the bench in place of Yarde!

Do you think the lions such as Itoje, Farrell, etc will play.

I have a suspicion he may rest them. Only picking Lions in critical positions like TH where Cole may have to play as we have no others.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do you think the lions such as Itoje, Farrell, etc will play.

I have a suspicion he may rest them. Only picking Lions in critical positions like TH where Cole may have to play as we have no others.

If England don't pick them, I'm pretty sure Sarries will.

Yeah valid point actually Sarge...

I think the marginal Lions will be rested/left out that we already know about - Sinkler and Joseph.
Others I expect to still be involved - Farrell, Teo, Watson, Daly etc. at least for the bigger AI's.

propdavid_london wrote:I think the marginal Lions will be rested/left out that we already know about - Sinkler and Joseph.
Others I expect to still be involved - Farrell, Teo, Watson, Daly etc. at least for the bigger AI's.

So that'll be Australia.

Surely Lawes gets a rest.

So in that case....

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Itoje
6 Robshaw
7 Underhill / Curry
8 Hughes

9 Youngs
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Joseph / Marchant / Teo / Slade / Daly?
14 Daly / Yarde (If Daly is at 13)
15 Watson - I don't see the point in playing Brown there anymore.

Geordiefalcon you want to flog Itoje?

Good call....


To be honest I'd rest both Itoje and Lawes.

2nd row can be

Kruis
Launchbury

Isiekwe and Ewels as cover.

Nothing wrong with that.


Why do England fans not want to get the balance right?

Want to flog certain players but not start others. Makes no sense!


England must work on strength in depth and keep key players fresh.

Don't want to flog these players - that's why there are mandatory rest periods as part of the EPS agreement.
I just want the best players representing England for all games - I don't like the idea of fielding experimental sides for a full test match.
It was unavoidable for the Argentina tour - And largely due to injuries, there will probably be a shuffling of the deck for the AI's.
But if the best players are fit then they should be selected.

In the case of the 2nd Row - England are fortunately well stocked. Kruis and Launchbury are an incredibly good partnership.
Itoje and Lawes may well be required as utility back row cover too - as that is currently where we are short.

It seems Saracens are flogging Itoje enough tbh.

There are also 2 rounds of European matches to go - so lets see who is left standing after that lot!
Eddie's squad will probably end up picking itself by default.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It seems Saracens are flogging Itoje enough tbh.

Not as much as the Lions and England have.

He's barely been given a break.

Saracens should have given him a week off once this season but injuries in the 2nd row and backrow have made this very hard to do plus the competitiveness of the AP.

Newcastle are too good this season, couldn't rest him against you.

Perhaps the opportunity was Worcester away. Every point counts in the AP this season though.

It's the clubs who primarily develop the players.

propdavid london the problem is if you don't rest players they'll burn out.

England are in a strong position where strength in depth is not an issue.

Can't underestimate how draining a Lions tour is.

propdavid_london wrote:...I don't like the idea of fielding experimental sides for a full test match....

The All Blacks used a stack of players during the Rugby Championship, and probably learned a lot about what they can do as a result.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon you want to flog Itoje?

Good call....


To be honest I'd rest both Itoje and Lawes.

2nd row can be

Kruis
Launchbury

Isiekwe and Ewels as cover.

Nothing wrong with that.


Why do England fans not want to get the balance right?

Want to flog certain players but not start others. Makes no sense!


England must work on strength in depth and keep key players fresh.

Do you actually read the messages above before slating people?????!!

If you did you would have noticed that I said people like Itoje, Farrel and Lawes etc etc need to be rested, but as Sgt rightly pointed out, if they're not selected for England their club sides will just flog them anyway!! So they may as well play!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon you want to flog Itoje?

Good call....


To be honest I'd rest both Itoje and Lawes.

2nd row can be

Kruis
Launchbury

Isiekwe and Ewels as cover.

Nothing wrong with that.


Why do England fans not want to get the balance right?

Want to flog certain players but not start others. Makes no sense!


England must work on strength in depth and keep key players fresh.

Do you actually read the messages above before slating people?????!!

If you did you would have noticed that I said people like Itoje, Farrel and Lawes etc etc need to be rested, but as Sgt rightly pointed out, if they're not selected for England their club sides will just flog them anyway!! So they may as well play!

Yet you pick a team - selecting Itoje.

Club sides won't flog their players if there are no big games. I thought the Anglo-Welsh took place during the AIs? At least partly?

I doubt Itoje would be used in the Anglo-Welsh anymore.

A player needs a rest - that means from internationals too.

Can't just expect the international side to benefit from players developed by clubs and not rest them from time to time.


And No, a club shouldn't play a player all the time either but it's the international side's responsibility to look after the player not just the club too.

I think we are all on the same page here - everyone agrees that there is player burn out and they need to be rested.
However the disagreement is where they should be rested. My opinion is that the clubs should rest them and that they should be available for all England matches (if required). They are part of the EPS and that's the agreement as I understand it.

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon you want to flog Itoje?

Good call....


To be honest I'd rest both Itoje and Lawes.

2nd row can be

Kruis
Launchbury

Isiekwe and Ewels as cover.

Nothing wrong with that.


Why do England fans not want to get the balance right?

Want to flog certain players but not start others. Makes no sense!


England must work on strength in depth and keep key players fresh.

Do you actually read the messages above before slating people?????!!

If you did you would have noticed that I said people like Itoje, Farrel and Lawes etc etc need to be rested, but as Sgt rightly pointed out, if they're not selected for England their club sides will just flog them anyway!! So they may as well play!

Yet you pick a team - selecting Itoje.

Club sides won't flog their players if there are no big games. I thought the Anglo-Welsh took place during the AIs? At least partly?

I doubt Itoje would be used in the Anglo-Welsh anymore.

A player needs a rest - that means from internationals too.

Can't just expect the international side to benefit from players developed by clubs and not rest them from time to time.


And No, a club shouldn't play a player all the time either but it's the international side's responsibility to look after the player not just the club too.

Yes , because everyone rightly said the clubs will still pick them anyway, so they may aswell be with the national side!!!

Look at my original team ABOVE that!!!

Saracens play Gloucester away and Exeter at home during the AIs.

Personally I feel England should have the likes of Mako, George, Itoje, Lawes, Watson in the squad for the AIs but not select them for match day - thus enforcing a break.

If Itoje doesn't play for England and Saracens don't play him at home to Irish
(they will hardly need him for that one) he will have a 4 week break anyway

LondonTiger wrote:Saracens play Gloucester away and Exeter at home during the AIs.

Personally I feel England should have the likes of Mako, George, Itoje, Lawes, Watson in the squad for the AIs but not select them for match day - thus enforcing a break.

Agree, he's got more of a chance of resting with England than Saracens so it seems. Maybe start him against Arg and Aus, on the bench for Samoa.

Play Itoje v Australia, but in Launchbury, Kruis (if he's fit) Ewells and Isiekwe we have good locks who can play against Argentina and Samoa.

Hell, half the premiership locks (players like Barrow, Witty, Robinson etc etc ) could play against Samoa, and most against Argentina.

Must admit, I'm really not seeing how Ewels is still in the mix.

Agree Sgt, Calum Green is leagues ahead of him. But not young enough.

Everyone seems to rate Ewells though...however they all rated Calum Clark aswell, so it shows what their opinions are like.

Geordiefalcon I agree about playing Itoje vs Australia.

The problem is playing 2 very tough club games coinciding with the AIs.

Gloucester away and Exeter home are almost as tough as you can get. Of course a club side would be encouraged to pick their stars with 2 fixtures like that!

Not exactly going to act as an incentive to rest players.

Why aren't the Anglo Welsh coinciding with the AIs? I think that's a flaw in the system there.

It's this club vs internationals thing but you can get around that by not having important internationals clashing with big club games!

Sgt Pooly so basically you wouldn't rest Itoje at all....

Ewels looks like a fairly standard player to me, does nothing flash, just kind of gets on with it. I feel that he is destined to be a good club pro but perhaps nothing more.

Agree though if we have to pick Itoje (not saying that we do) let it be against Australia. Saying that, if we don't pick Lawes, Kruis or Itoje who is our lineout caller? Is that a role that Launchbury performs for Wasps? To be honest if it is I would be still fairly confident that we could be Australia with Launchbury and one of the young lads paired together.

I liked the pack you picked originally GF, they would be difficult to beat, especially at home.

My one concern having seen a little more of Underhill is that all he seems to do is tackle (albeit very hard). I would like to see a little more of his breakdown work and linking skills (to be fair to him he has just started really though). I would not to think that he was to become Dan Lydiate MK2

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon I agree about playing Itoje vs Australia.

The problem is playing 2 very tough club games coinciding with the AIs.

But if he was with England he would play 1 tough game - Australia, then rest....rather than 2 tough ones for his club.

I guess we'll see...but when we have weaker opponents this AI, and probably the best lock stable in the world, we should be resting the likes of Itoje.

beshocked wrote:Why aren't the Anglo Welsh coinciding with the AIs? I think that's a flaw in the system there.

Eddie Jones has his squad for four weeks - during which time there are 2 Anglo Welsh games and 2 AP games.

Yes I'd rest Itoje....I'd bench him against Samoa, which is more rest than he'd get with Sarries.

Underhill is a ferocious tackler, much more aggressive than Lydiate. He's got great ground work, reminds me more of a young Pocock.

Realisticly Jones wants to win first and foremost and to do that he'll play his best team.

Yes against Samoa he may experiment and rest players. But the other games he'll put out our strongest 23 every time.

That's the nature of the beast.

Not sure. He has said he intends to rest lions players and was reinforced by some of the BT sport commentary suggesting Itoje would be used sparingly his autumn, perhaps bench option only? Had anyone figured out when jones is telling the truth yet?

So do they let Underhill play his natural game and spend half the season with the medics (but then we have Curry x2 to fill in) or do they try and teach him the way of the Robshaw and how to time the hardest hits and not to always hurt himself.

lostinwales wrote:So do they let Underhill play his natural game and spend half the season with the medics (but then we have Curry x2 to fill in) or do they try and teach him the way of the Robshaw and how to time the hardest hits and not to always hurt himself.

You do bring up a very good point.

Some players do play a style which is more likely to leave them battered/injured after a game.

Whilst injuries are part of the game clearly there are some players who pick up more than others and it's not just bad luck IMO.

You are right about Robshaw. He does seem to keep himself remarkably fit and healthy for a flanker.

lostinwales wrote:So do they let Underhill play his natural game and spend half the season with the medics (but then we have Curry x2 to fill in) or do they try and teach him the way of the Robshaw and how to time the hardest hits and not to always hurt himself.

I hope they can teach him. Underhill's already got a horrendous injury record for a player of his age. At the moment he plays full tilt all the time and doesn't seem to know when to back off.

It's a great observation that Robshaw's longevity (and I suspect also why coaches value him so much) is down to playing the percentages intelligently - not just in physicality but also in things like choosing when to go for the turnover and when just to slow the ball down. If the likes of Underhill, the Currys and Mercer can learn that, it will stand England in good stead for a generation. It's not easy, but it's well worth the effort.

As for the AI squad, my guess would be that Eddie will start with less experienced players where he has the option, and keep experience on the bench. It enables him to control the gametime of the most overworked players, give the squad players experience and still have the ability to step it up and win games in the last quarter.

But I think from his comments about building the 2019 squad that he's more interested in giving players experience than winning at this point. He's shown he can build a winning squad. He's shown he can win away from home with an inexperienced squad. But he still has a bunch of fringe players who don't have enough experience to be ready for an RWC. So he will prioritise giving them gametime in this relatively easy AI period - because in 2018 he has a 6N to try to win and the All Blacks to try to beat.

I have to be honest from what ive seen of Curry v Underhill I think Curry is heads and tails ahead of Underhill. Maybe not quite so physical but still shows very good strength and tackling power.

I would be starting him in the AI's.

One or both of the curries look better long term bets off limited viewing for me too. Still think at this moment underhill is slightly better. Would like to see him work with england from now through the 6 nations to see how he settles.

Poorfour wrote:

lostinwales wrote:So do they let Underhill play his natural game and spend half the season with the medics (but then we have Curry x2 to fill in) or do they try and teach him the way of the Robshaw and how to time the hardest hits and not to always hurt himself.

I hope they can teach him. Underhill's already got a horrendous injury record for a player of his age. At the moment he plays full tilt all the time and doesn't seem to know when to back off.

It's a great observation that Robshaw's longevity (and I suspect also why coaches value him so much) is down to playing the percentages intelligently - not just in physicality but also in things like choosing when to go for the turnover and when just to slow the ball down. If the likes of Underhill, the Currys and Mercer can learn that, it will stand England in good stead for a generation. It's not easy, but it's well worth the effort.

As for the AI squad, my guess would be that Eddie will start with less experienced players where he has the option, and keep experience on the bench. It enables him to control the gametime of the most overworked players, give the squad players experience and still have the ability to step it up and win games in the last quarter.

But I think from his comments about building the 2019 squad that he's more interested in giving players experience than winning at this point. He's shown he can build a winning squad. He's shown he can win away from home with an inexperienced squad. But he still has a bunch of fringe players who don't have enough experience to be ready for an RWC. So he will prioritise giving them gametime in this relatively easy AI period - because in 2018 he has a 6N to try to win and the All Blacks to try to beat.

It may also be one of the reasons why some people don't rate Robshaw. He does not put '110%' into everything he does. Instead he puts in '95%' but he sustains that level all game long, and because he doesn't often get hurt he stays very fit and keeps up that level in almost every game he plays. He ends up being the hardest working guy on the pitch. The only player I have heard of with a higher work rate is Pocock and he's much more fragile.

I'm with the "don't rate Robshaw too highly" camp. This 95% theory is interesting. He tends to plod through games doing nothing particularly great and nothing particularly bad.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm with the "don't rate Robshaw too highly" camp. This 95% theory is interesting. He tends to plod through games doing nothing particularly great and nothing particularly bad.

That's your perception. As fans we tend to overvalue the stuff that gets on highlights reels, and undervalue the less flashy stuff. What the stats say is a bit different. I think it was Green and Gold did the analysis before the last RWC and what they found was that Robshaw gets involved in the game - whether tackling, carrying or hitting rucks - about 30% more often than a typical starting international. It's equivalent to having an impact sub on the pitch for the full 80 minutes.

That's hardly plodding - but it's not glamorous. A lot of it is hitting rucks and either securing the ball or slowing it down. I've seen another analysis that says his effectiveness at doing this (as opposed to being a ruck inspector) is also very high. Or there was the comparison with Armitage in the HEC pool stages a couple of years ago. Steffon made 4 times as many turnovers, but gave away 4 times as many penalties.

Contrast that with Underhill, who flies around the pitch hitting anything that moves like a miniature Haskell, but often gets injured and sometimes does the wrong thing like flying out of the line too early. The Currys are better on that front - but in an increasingly attritional and technical game the value of taking the right risks shouldn't be underestimated.

Does anyone know if the new laws.are being used in the AIs? Can't find anywhere which confirms it.

Frankly surprised that the guy who has always been just good enough for England because there was no one else and who gave up 3 points to send his team out of their own RWC is even anywhere near the England camp still, surely there are better options

School finished for the day Gwlad.....?

GeordieFalcon wrote:School finished for the day Gwlad.....?

No just in French Oral right now

Gwlad wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:School finished for the day Gwlad.....?

No just in French Oral right now

Never mind I am sure you can get the taste out of your mouth everntually