Gatland has played a blinder.... Lions wont lose more than 1 more game on tour...

Just as the title says. Gatland has stirred up the hunger for the mid-week players to play a blinder and prove their worth. I cant see the mid-week side losing another game.

Also, I think the All Blacks will be in for a shock the following Saturday, as tomorrows team will chase the Lions "test players" so hard, they are also going to put their lives on the line and take the All Blacks by surprise. I see the Lions winning the first Test.

That will keep the Lions machine rolling into the last Mid-Week game, but the All Blacks shock defeat in the 1st Test will hit them hard, and the 2nd Test will be theirs.

Setting up the finale of the 3rd and deciding test. Which I hope the Lions will take and the All Blacks will once again pick up a "choker" ...

No9 wrote:Just as the title says. Gatland has stirred up the hunger for the mid-week players to play a blinder and prove their worth. I cant see the mid-week side losing another game.

Also, I think the All Blacks will be in for a shock the following Saturday, as tomorrows team will chase the Lions "test players" so hard, they are also going to put their lives on the line and take the All Blacks by surprise. I see the Lions winning the first Test.

That will keep the Lions machine rolling into the last Mid-Week game, but the All Blacks shock defeat in the 1st Test will hit them hard, and the 2nd Test will be theirs.

Setting up the finale of the 3rd and deciding test. Which I hope the Lions will take and the All Blacks will once again pick up a "choker" ...

Cheers for finding that choker mate, it's been a decade since it went awol

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

No9 wrote:Just as the title says. Gatland has stirred up the hunger for the mid-week players to play a blinder and prove their worth. I cant see the mid-week side losing another game.

Also, I think the All Blacks will be in for a shock the following Saturday, as tomorrows team will chase the Lions "test players" so hard, they are also going to put their lives on the line and take the All Blacks by surprise. I see the Lions winning the first Test.

That will keep the Lions machine rolling into the last Mid-Week game, but the All Blacks shock defeat in the 1st Test will hit them hard, and the 2nd Test will be theirs.

Setting up the finale of the 3rd and deciding test. Which I hope the Lions will take and the All Blacks will once again pick up a "choker" ...

Cheers for finding that choker mate, it's been a decade since it went awol

Your welcome

Joking aside Pete, and I'm sure you realise there may be a little tongue in cheek with my post...

BUT, would you prefer to see the All Blacks smash the Lions 3-0 or set up a deciding 3rd test as per the last Lions tour against Aus.

I know I'd love to see the Lions win 3-0, as the biased Brit, but the true rugby fan in me would love this to go to the wire..

No9 wrote:Joking aside Pete, and I'm sure you realise there may be a little tongue in cheek with my post...

BUT, would you prefer to see the All Blacks smash the Lions 3-0 or set up a deciding 3rd test as per the last Lions tour against Aus.

I know I'd love to see the Lions win 3-0, as the biased Brit, but the true rugby fan in me would love this to go to the wire..

With that style of rugby?

ABs got more tries in one match than the Lions have all tour. No, a true rugby fan would want true class to come through, not a flop over the line side that does little with the copious amount of ball it gets.

If the Lions win this weekend it won't be through rugby you'll want to teach your kids.

I'd teach my kids winning rugby in whatever form

Although I completely agree we're going to get spanked

No9 wrote:Joking aside Pete, and I'm sure you realise there may be a little tongue in cheek with my post...

BUT, would you prefer to see the All Blacks smash the Lions 3-0 or set up a deciding 3rd test as per the last Lions tour against Aus.

I know I'd love to see the Lions win 3-0, as the biased Brit, but the true rugby fan in me would love this to go to the wire..

Part of me would like to see a 3rd test decider. I'm not particularly expecting it mind. Though I do expect 1 or 2 of the tests to be close.

Genuine question - when people say they think the Lions will win the series, or that they are the favourites, they are joking, right?

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

No9 wrote:Joking aside Pete, and I'm sure you realise there may be a little tongue in cheek with my post...

BUT, would you prefer to see the All Blacks smash the Lions 3-0 or set up a deciding 3rd test as per the last Lions tour against Aus.

I know I'd love to see the Lions win 3-0, as the biased Brit, but the true rugby fan in me would love this to go to the wire..

Part of me would like to see a 3rd test decider. I'm not particularly expecting it mind. Though I do expect 1 or 2 of the tests to be close.

I agree... Love to see a 3rd test decider, but I think the All Blacks will just be too strong.. BUT I'm not going to be defeatist, and with blind optimism, I'm going to say 3-0 to the Lions

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Genuine question - when people say they think the Lions will win the series, or that they are the favourites, they are joking, right?

I don't think they are favourites (Lions)... but I'm going to have faith they can win the series... After all, why couldn't they.. They are still in it, and will be even if they lose Saturday. Its all to play for till the fat lady sings...

Love the way some All Black fans feel qualified to pontificate on 'true rugby'! When your team wins more often than not then the manner of the win is important. On those rare occasions when they lose, true rugby suddenly becomes hitting opposition heads with shoulders and knees while the fans send bullets in the post to referees. So the lesson is that anything goes as long as there is a W in the result column.

No9 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Genuine question - when people say they think the Lions will win the series, or that they are the favourites, they are joking, right?

I don't think they are favourites (Lions)... but I'm going to have faith they can win the series... After all, why couldn't they.. They are still in it, and will be even if they lose Saturday. Its all to play for till the fat lady sings...

Why couldn't t they? Have to think about that one, very deeply - bit of genius bit of magic, have to go away and think about it deeply...
OK after deep thought:
They are a scratch side - players and coaches
They are playing away
They are tired after a long season
They are against a fresh team that is miles better than them individually
They are against an experienced team used to playing together

Still there are a few romantics who give Conor McGregor a fighting chance against Mayweather, but I'm not sure even they would put any money on the Lions

LIonbs will get beaten 3 nil in the tests and not even come close.

Wrong coach, wrong selections, wrong tactics.

Even wth all of those being right it would be very unlikely they would win a test. Given how crap all 3 things are then its going to be a humiliating whitewash. No test within 2 scores. Gatland is still trying to shoehorn his favourites like Warburton in when even in the squad there are better players available

A 3-0 series whitewash for the Lions is pretty ambitious. Being strong in defence and kicking the ball back to the ABs so they can do some more defending is great and all but the ABs are an imaginative and quick thinking bunch. Am expecting to see some innovative stuff from the ABs to really get the Lions second guessing their game plan. I mean, it's just quick (offside) defensive line speed. Hardly revolutionary.

Can you explain to me what you believe offside to be?

When the ball is in a ruck, maul, or line-out, any player who is in front of the hindmost foot of the hindmost player of the same side in the ruck/maul/scrum/lineout is in an offside position.

The Lions have been pinged a few times but they're getting away with a lot more. Good on them.

Can't see it myself. Maybe I've watched nz too much.

Fair enough. It's not all the time but they get it wrong on occasion.

Gatland has already had a sook to the media about NZ players and ABs blocking players in high ball challenges yet all the NZ coaches have to do is to politely remind the officials to police the defensive line more effectively. Maybe also mention the Lions not rolling away and flopping over the ball. Or cynical off the ball stuff from the likes of itoje and AWJ et al that weren't penalised. If the officials get it right the games will be a better free flowing spectacle. But that's the last thing the Lions want so am expecting a heap of cynicism from them to stay in touch with the ABs. It may work if the officials aren't up to the challenge.

ebop wrote:Gatland has already had a sook to the media about NZ players and ABs blocking players in high ball challenges yet all the NZ coaches have to do is to politely remind the officials to police the defensive line more effectively. Maybe also mention the Lions not rolling away and flopping over the ball. Or cynical off the ball stuff from the likes of itoje and AWJ et al that weren't penalised. If the officials get it right the games will be a better free flowing spectacle. But that's the last thing the Lions want so am expecting a heap of cynicism from them to stay in touch with the ABs. It may work if the officials aren't up to the challenge.

Hey ebop, is that you getting your excuses in early.... The Lions may win if the officials aren't any good!!! I'm shocked...

The way I see it, is that the All Blacks may not be as good as we all suspect, if the Officials don't allow them to get away with murder...

Ha, not at all No9

Was just making the point the Lions will be wanting to slow the ABs and the game down to a crawl, either legally or illegally

I think the test series will be fiercely competitive but I'm thinking we'll have the edge required to win it

Think so as well.... but as I've said, not giving up till the fat lady sings....

For sure No9

Your test team defence is very solid and can apply immense pressure. The ABs are focusing on this. But also set piece, territorial kicking, box kicks and moments of opportunity could result in tries to some individual piece of skill/pace. Can't wait to see which style wins.

Our defence is good in itself but if we give away penalties then we could be in trouble if scoreboard pressure mounts. If we are offloading in the tackle as a strategy then that could open up opportunities for intercepts. Or little dinks behind the line could just be giving away the ball.

Gatland will know and implement measures I'm sure to mitigate certain things. So we'll need to be accurate. We'll know whether it's our day or not if flukey 'looking' things pan out. By flukey 'looking' I mean outrageous skill sets. Don't reckon our forwards will be bullied by the Lions so it could be the micro-skills that make the difference. The steps, the offloads, the mind reading abilities of the ABs that NZR have ploughed so much research money into that means they know where to be and when. Things like that.

No9 wrote:

That will keep the Lions machine rolling into the last Mid-Week game, but the All Blacks shock defeat in the 1st Test will hit them hard, and the 2nd Test will be theirs.

So true! We all know that when NZ lose a game they'll then lose the 2nd one, it's definitely not like they'll come out looking to make up for it, oh no they'll just roll over, probably start crying. Genious

Yet again Gatland plays a blinder - causes a furore with his call-ups and then doesn't give them one minute of gametime because no one was injured! (Lawes might disagree)
When he made his point of dropping BOD in as public a way as he could, some thought that he was just ill-advised and naive, but au contraire he now shows that he is just as big a troll as Gwlad. He is in this for his own self-aggrandisement just as much as the players are and he is trying to form chapters for his 'Auto'biography. He might not have been talked about as a player but he has become infamous as a 'coach'.

If Warren had the Lions truly to heart, he would have brought all the subs on and rested as many players as he could. All it takes is for someone to pull up in a training run before Saturday and suddenly say Best or Cole are in the 23. With full games behind them they will soon be shattered if they have to come on in the first minute of the Test.
Not only that, the arrivals might have had a chance to at least feel part of the tour as it's not their fault they have been flown in at short notice. Getting a feeling of inclusion might actually have been good for morale?

Maybe Gatty is a bit thick and can't see the opportunity he's just wasted? Or alternatively he doesn't care about anything other than building his own reputation for being a stubborn megalomaniac, in which case he is really playing another blinder.

Or maybe he has manipulated the media around him to either cover something up, or redirect from where he thinks the media want to go in the week leading up to test 1!!!

Gatland has previous of creating contraversy right before a big game, why would this be any different, are people still surprised by this? I think this has been the plan from minute one back in London

yappysnap wrote:

No9 wrote:

That will keep the Lions machine rolling into the last Mid-Week game, but the All Blacks shock defeat in the 1st Test will hit them hard, and the 2nd Test will be theirs.

So true! We all know that when NZ lose a game they'll then lose the 2nd one, it's definitely not like they'll come out looking to make up for it, oh no they'll just roll over, probably start crying. Genious

Misread the post there yappy - No9 meant that the All blacks losing the first test will make them so hungry/ruthless/angry/cynical that they will come out of the blocks like rhinoceri and flatten the Lions in the 2nd Test (liek they did against Ireland when they lost)

Fanster wrote:Or maybe he has manipulated the media around him to either cover something up, or redirect from where he thinks the media want to go in the week leading up to test 1!!!

Gatland has previous of creating contraversy right before a big game, why would this be any different, are people still surprised by this? I think this has been the plan from minute one back in London

Absolutely! He has obviously engineered this situation to give himself the media attention as he did four years ago. This has probably been planned since the final whistle in Sydney and most of it already dictated to his ghost writer.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Fanster wrote:Or maybe he has manipulated the media around him to either cover something up, or redirect from where he thinks the media want to go in the week leading up to test 1!!!

Gatland has previous of creating contraversy right before a big game, why would this be any different, are people still surprised by this? I think this has been the plan from minute one back in London

Absolutely! He has obviously engineered this situation to give himself the media attention as he did four years ago. This has probably been planned since the final whistle in Sydney and most of it already dictated to his ghost writer.

Totally agree guys and with what he could well have put in his WRFU pension pot from picking all these injured, overrated, under-performing and now 3rd rate Welsh players he can probably afford to pay JK Rowling to write it for him, she is probably one of the few writers who could understand the fantasy world he seems to live in.

I have really developed an irrational hatred of Warren Gatland as a coach over this Lions series.

It wasn't enough for him to leave behind some of the form Scottish players in the first place, but then he calls up a bunch of Welsh nobodies and Allan Dell (by any measurement a Scottish nobody) and applies his blinkers to the obvious media circus that followed it.

The one player that he did call up, who could make a positive impact Finn Russell who has been electric all summer long was also left on the bench. We can't have a young Scottish upstart playing well for the Lions and showing up Warren now can we?!

Some people (posters on here and pundits in the MSM) were hammering vitriol all over the players that were selected. It's not the players fault that they were picked, due to geographical convenience or otherwise. Most of the players are doing what they are supposed to do I think. I say most because it has been widely rumored that Johnny Gray and Fraser Brown told Gatland to ram his call up to be a human shield for his test players.

What really irks though, is that he called those players up, retreated into an entrenched position regarding their call up, defended it to the hilt, and didn't have the balls to put a single one on the pitch unless his hand was forced like it was with Marler getting sin binned.

Gatland is now the second worst coach the Lions have ever had.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I have really developed an irrational hatred of Warren Gatland as a coach over this Lions series.

It wasn't enough for him to leave behind some of the form Scottish players in the first place, but then he calls up a bunch of Welsh nobodies and Allan Dell (by any measurement a Scottish nobody) and applies his blinkers to the obvious media circus that followed it.

The one player that he did call up, who could make a positive impact Finn Russell who has been electric all summer long was also left on the bench. We can't have a young Scottish upstart playing well for the Lions and showing up Warren now can we?!

Some people (posters on here and pundits in the MSM) were hammering vitriol all over the players that were selected. It's not the players fault that they were picked, due to geographical convenience or otherwise. Most of the players are doing what they are supposed to do I think. I say most because it has been widely rumored that Johnny Gray and Fraser Brown told Gatland to ram his call up to be a human shield for his test players.

What really irks though, is that he called those players up, retreated into an entrenched position regarding their call up, defended it to the hilt, and didn't have the balls to put a single one on the pitch unless his hand was forced like it was with Marler getting sin binned.

Gatland is now the second worst coach the Lions have ever had.

"Gatland is now the second worst coach the Lions have ever had".[/quote]
What a sad indictment, after all his 'efforts' over the past year or so he can't even manage to win the worst Lions coach award, still it could make a good title for his memoirs " Not the Worst Lions Coach" kinda catchy isn't it

Right, lets try to look at this a different way

What would bring Gatland back into a positive perception from fans in this forum who have lost faith?

Tipping the balance back in his way for me would be

Not selecting North or AWJ for the test squad and benching Warburton (as the first 2 have not done enough to deserve a place and the third is close (Would show he is impartial and truly is going on what form he sees)
Win one test - will be a positive and I will admit he has done ok (Unless it is the 3rd and we lost the first 2 and NZ play a second sting)
Win two tests - Then by jove, he has done a remarkable thing, and I will praise his for being right in his tactics, but still keep a little annoyance that he could have done things a lot better
Win three test - Bingo - what a man and what do I know about rugby

:-0

None of the 3 should be in the squad

I'm less worried over the results (no matter what side and tactics a win is unlikely)

Its showing impartiality in selection, willingness to try something different to beat them (ie pairing Sexton/Farrell) rather than the same old schit.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Gatland is now the second worst coach the Lions have ever had.

Translates to what most English and Scottish are constantly saying on every platform I frequent; "I hate the Lions, Wales and Gatland because they don't pick enough of my players." In the professional era the Lions is about winning and money-making; Gatland is getting them to succeed at both. Keeping fans happy by picking the players they rate doesn't even make the totem pole.

To me it's not about the success. Winning at all costs isn't winning at all. The last tour I enjoyed was 2009.

2013 is remembered for the wrong reasons in my book. The playing of Hogg at 10, the dropping of BOD and the parachuting in of Shane Williams.

In terms of positive memories, Halfpenny's amazing performances is in there, as is North carrying Folau on his back.

Did we win? Apparently so, but that's not what springs to mind for me anyway.

Even if we muller the all blacks 3 nil, it won't vindicate Gatland for me, nor make me consider the tour a success. Success isn't just about results, it sounds corny but how we get there is more important to me. See 2009 to get an understanding of what I mean.

mikey_dragon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Gatland is now the second worst coach the Lions have ever had.

Translates to what most English and Scottish are constantly saying on every platform I frequent; "I hate the Lions, Wales and Gatland because they don't pick enough of my players." In the professional era the Lions is about winning and money-making; Gatland is getting them to succeed at both. Keeping fans happy by picking the players they rate doesn't even make the totem pole.

Sorry you keep saying that, but I have never seen people say they hate Wales in the Lions tour. They may dislike Gatland who is a Kiwi, or his tatics or dislike the form of some players being ignored (Bot for and against) including English, Irish, Welsh and Scottish.

Just because you keep saying it, does not make it true?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:To me it's not about the success. Winning at all costs isn't winning at all. The last tour I enjoyed was 2009.

2013 is remembered for the wrong reasons in my book. The playing of Hogg at 10, the dropping of BOD and the parachuting in of Shane Williams.

In terms of positive memories, Halfpenny's amazing performances is in there, as is North carrying Folau on his back.

Did we win? Apparently so, but that's not what springs to mind for me anyway.

Even if we muller the all blacks 3 nil, it won't vindicate Gatland for me, nor make me consider the tour a success. Success isn't just about results, it sounds corny but how we get there is more important to me. See 2009 to get an understanding of what I mean.

^^^this is hilarious!

Fanster wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:To me it's not about the success. Winning at all costs isn't winning at all. The last tour I enjoyed was 2009.

2013 is remembered for the wrong reasons in my book. The playing of Hogg at 10, the dropping of BOD and the parachuting in of Shane Williams.

In terms of positive memories, Halfpenny's amazing performances is in there, as is North carrying Folau on his back.

Did we win? Apparently so, but that's not what springs to mind for me anyway.

Even if we muller the all blacks 3 nil, it won't vindicate Gatland for me, nor make me consider the tour a success. Success isn't just about results, it sounds corny but how we get there is more important to me. See 2009 to get an understanding of what I mean.

^^^this is hilarious!

Yeah laugh it up.

A big part, perhaps the biggest part, of being a fan is feeling a sense of belonging to your team and what they represent. Or maybe the biggest part is winning stuff, it probably depends who you ask.

But the belonging thing is certainly in the top two.

You have to understand how hard it is for Scotland supporters to feel part of this particular  Lions tour – and trust me, I personally really, really want to feel a part of a Lions tour – because they don’t represent all of us and they haven't for the best part of two decades. A controversial 50-50 here or a debatable selection there is one thing; being on the margins for 2 generations of Scottish players is quite another.

Theres been a massive lump of preaching on here, saying I'd still support them, but Lions time is always a parochial time. Those who deny this fact are lying to themselves. Until you have been in this position please don't preach and say you wouldn't care, because trust me you would. Because I do.

At this moment the lack of Scottish Lions representation is attracting a fair amount of ire from the north of these islands.  There's an inescapable threat that the Lions and this special concept will soon dissolve into utter indifference up here.

That may bother the corporate sponsors somewhat, but it would bother me as a rugby fan much more than that.

Well if we move forward into a 'Scottish quota' system, then it would officially not be the pinnacle of british and Irish rugby would it?

It may be tough emotionally, but merit is how you get 5 plus Scots on tour, that is the only way it can be!

PS I also disagree with the recent call ups, Davies, Russell and Francis aside!

Yet scotland are better than wales. Merit indeed.

As have said before, Gatland does not understand the Lions ethos, he is a Kiwi and has only seen the Lions once every 12 years of his growing up. He has chosen both in the last series and to an extent this to pick a squad built around what and who he knows, not who deserves a place.

Was it successful? The Lions won in 2013, but against a side that was falling apart, England beat the same squad 3-0 with a lot of kids in the side. Therefore arguably the 2013 Lions were not as good as England.

England and Wales finished level on points that year, but was it 13 Welshman in the 3rd test, only SCW or Gatland would have picked a side like that, it was in complete contrast to the Lions ethos of picking the best players from the 4 nations.

Gatland has lived on that success ever since, despite pitiful Welsh performances against SH opposition; but just how good was it, Lions series victories are rare, possibly because of the way the Lions have always operated, but Australia have been beaten by just about everybody else ever since, except Wales.

This tour and side looks a better squad, more in keeping with the "ethos" I keep mentioning, but Gatland cannot keep from picking his old favourites, AWJ should be nowhere near the side on either his current form, or his form over the last year. He would not get into the England EPS, would struggle for the Saxons, but starts Saturday. Both Halfpenny and Warburton have a claim to a test place, but have not shown enough to gain a test start; then they should not be in the 23, they are not benchers, Tuperic is a far better option on the bench than Warburton and Stander is a better all round bench option, just as Joseph is a better option than Halfpenny. Watson and Daly can cover 15, Joseph covers centre and wing.

This is potentially the last Lions tour as we know it, Gatland's lack of understanding of what the Lions are about is alienating public support for the Lions, the clubs, in England at least are looking for excuses to limit their player exposure to unrealistic game schedules and burnout. They effectively lose their Lions players for 2 -3 months of the season whilst they recover. Without the barmy army of support that follows the Lions the host countries would not make anything like the money they need. In NZ, SA and Oz, Lions tours are a major source of income, without them they would struggle.

The Lions management need to understand that they are treading on very unstable ground employing people like Gatland; he could destroy a century of tradition with his nepotistic selections and frankly unsympathetic management style. The Lions ARE tradition, that is there only purpose in the NH, we do not need the income unlike the SH. Destroy that tradition and you destroy the Lions.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yet scotland are better than wales. Merit indeed.

You need to be consistent against all teams to be better than them, not win a one-off right off the back of a decade losing streak. Scotland weren't consistent at the time and Gatland thought so too. It's clear to see Scotland are improving though and becoming more consistent so right now I'd say yes, they're definitely a better team than Wales. Too bad we can't call more up right now.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Fanster wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:To me it's not about the success. Winning at all costs isn't winning at all. The last tour I enjoyed was 2009.

2013 is remembered for the wrong reasons in my book. The playing of Hogg at 10, the dropping of BOD and the parachuting in of Shane Williams.

In terms of positive memories, Halfpenny's amazing performances is in there, as is North carrying Folau on his back.

Did we win? Apparently so, but that's not what springs to mind for me anyway.

Even if we muller the all blacks 3 nil, it won't vindicate Gatland for me, nor make me consider the tour a success. Success isn't just about results, it sounds corny but how we get there is more important to me. See 2009 to get an understanding of what I mean.

^^^this is hilarious!

Yeah laugh it up.

A big part, perhaps the biggest part, of being a fan is feeling a sense of belonging to your team and what they represent. Or maybe the biggest part is winning stuff, it probably depends who you ask.

But the belonging thing is certainly in the top two.

You have to understand how hard it is for Scotland supporters to feel part of this particular  Lions tour – and trust me, I personally really, really want to feel a part of a Lions tour – because they don’t represent all of us and they haven't for the best part of two decades. A controversial 50-50 here or a debatable selection there is one thing; being on the margins for 2 generations of Scottish players is quite another.

Theres been a massive lump of preaching on here, saying I'd still support them, but Lions time is always a parochial time. Those who deny this fact are lying to themselves. Until you have been in this position please don't preach and say you wouldn't care, because trust me you would. Because I do.

At this moment the lack of Scottish Lions representation is attracting a fair amount of ire from the north of these islands.  There's an inescapable threat that the Lions and this special concept will soon dissolve into utter indifference up here.

That may bother the corporate sponsors somewhat, but it would bother me as a rugby fan much more than that.

I'll admit that I did laugh a bit. You're clearly a nice guy Radge but that talk seems a loser-ish. Overall I think I get your point though and I understand it, but still don't agree that winning isn't the most important factor. Then again I went to France in 2007 to watch Wales struggle against Canada - the tour was perhaps the best I've been on though. I was out quite often watching the rugby that year and had some good times despite Wales not performing well enough in the world cup.

That ignores the fact that Scotland's first team is really good but they suffer from a thin squad mikey.

mikey_dragon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Fanster wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:To me it's not about the success. Winning at all costs isn't winning at all. The last tour I enjoyed was 2009.

2013 is remembered for the wrong reasons in my book. The playing of Hogg at 10, the dropping of BOD and the parachuting in of Shane Williams.

In terms of positive memories, Halfpenny's amazing performances is in there, as is North carrying Folau on his back.

Did we win? Apparently so, but that's not what springs to mind for me anyway.

Even if we muller the all blacks 3 nil, it won't vindicate Gatland for me, nor make me consider the tour a success. Success isn't just about results, it sounds corny but how we get there is more important to me. See 2009 to get an understanding of what I mean.

^^^this is hilarious!

Yeah laugh it up.

A big part, perhaps the biggest part, of being a fan is feeling a sense of belonging to your team and what they represent. Or maybe the biggest part is winning stuff, it probably depends who you ask.

But the belonging thing is certainly in the top two.

You have to understand how hard it is for Scotland supporters to feel part of this particular  Lions tour – and trust me, I personally really, really want to feel a part of a Lions tour – because they don’t represent all of us and they haven't for the best part of two decades. A controversial 50-50 here or a debatable selection there is one thing; being on the margins for 2 generations of Scottish players is quite another.

Theres been a massive lump of preaching on here, saying I'd still support them, but Lions time is always a parochial time. Those who deny this fact are lying to themselves. Until you have been in this position please don't preach and say you wouldn't care, because trust me you would. Because I do.

At this moment the lack of Scottish Lions representation is attracting a fair amount of ire from the north of these islands.  There's an inescapable threat that the Lions and this special concept will soon dissolve into utter indifference up here.

That may bother the corporate sponsors somewhat, but it would bother me as a rugby fan much more than that.

I'll admit that I did laugh a bit. You're clearly a nice guy Radge but that talk seems a loser-ish. Overall I think I get your point though and I understand it, but still don't agree that winning isn't the most important factor. Then again I went to France in 2007 to watch Wales struggle against Canada - the tour was perhaps the best I've been on though. I was out quite often watching the rugby that year and had some good times despite Wales not performing well enough in the world cup.

Touching in 2 points, 1 consistency. Scotland might not have been consistently excellent, but we can agree that Wales were consistently bad in this 6N. An appalling try scoring record and one of your worst finishes in years.

As for winning at all cost, you must understand that winning is the whole point of the world cup. Whereas the Lions is about more than the win. Look at what the 2009 tour did for all those who love the Lions. It wasn't a series win, but it was for the players and the Lions badge.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Touching in 2 points, 1 consistency. Scotland might not have been consistently excellent, but we can agree that Wales were consistently bad in this 6N. An appalling try scoring record and one of your worst finishes in years.

As for winning at all cost, you must understand that winning is the whole point of the world cup. Whereas the Lions is about more than the win. Look at what the 2009 tour did for all those who love the Lions. It wasn't a series win, but it was for the players and the Lions badge.

Well point 1 is something we can definitely agree on, however I felt there was a number of good individuals for Wales but they didn't perform well as a team. A sign of bad coaching. I thought AWJ and Ball were up there as one of the best lock pairs in the 6N, some might disagree with that one. Our back-row worked pretty well too.

At this moment the lack of Scottish Lions representation is attracting a fair amount of ire from the north of these islands. There's an inescapable threat that the Lions and this special concept will soon dissolve into utter indifference up here.

~already happened. this tour was the nail in the coffin. Because Scotland stuffed wales, are 5th in the world and get 1/6th of the representation of Wales who were poor in the 6N and at the end of the tourney were 9th in the world. some of those welsh players were injured but selected. Some way below their form. while players in great form are ignored.

I love the Welsh irony! Thirteen Welsh players can beat Australia but fifteen can't ☺
Have the Welsh fans ever considered that BECAUSE they have a mindset that the Lions team is in some way better than Wales - they have ready made excuse for not doing it on their own. The players think that if they can't do it as a collective how are they going to do it as just one nation? England didn't think that and rolled Oz over 3-0.
The Lions not only crocks players physically, it also undermines their mental toughness.

Wales 22 - 9 Ireland. Leinster and Munster stuffed by Scarlets. Wayne Barnes .

Again, Scotland going an about Wales. You beat other teams in the 6N too, right? Give Ireland some stick for a while would ya!