Gatland has played a blinder.... Lions wont lose more than 1 more game on tour...

First topic message reminder :

Just as the title says. Gatland has stirred up the hunger for the mid-week players to play a blinder and prove their worth. I cant see the mid-week side losing another game.

Also, I think the All Blacks will be in for a shock the following Saturday, as tomorrows team will chase the Lions "test players" so hard, they are also going to put their lives on the line and take the All Blacks by surprise. I see the Lions winning the first Test.

That will keep the Lions machine rolling into the last Mid-Week game, but the All Blacks shock defeat in the 1st Test will hit them hard, and the 2nd Test will be theirs.

Setting up the finale of the 3rd and deciding test. Which I hope the Lions will take and the All Blacks will once again pick up a "choker" ...

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Fanster wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:To me it's not about the success. Winning at all costs isn't winning at all. The last tour I enjoyed was 2009.

2013 is remembered for the wrong reasons in my book. The playing of Hogg at 10, the dropping of BOD and the parachuting in of Shane Williams.

In terms of positive memories, Halfpenny's amazing performances is in there, as is North carrying Folau on his back.

Did we win? Apparently so, but that's not what springs to mind for me anyway.

Even if we muller the all blacks 3 nil, it won't vindicate Gatland for me, nor make me consider the tour a success. Success isn't just about results, it sounds corny but how we get there is more important to me. See 2009 to get an understanding of what I mean.

^^^this is hilarious!

Yeah laugh it up.

A big part, perhaps the biggest part, of being a fan is feeling a sense of belonging to your team and what they represent. Or maybe the biggest part is winning stuff, it probably depends who you ask.

But the belonging thing is certainly in the top two.

You have to understand how hard it is for Scotland supporters to feel part of this particular  Lions tour – and trust me, I personally really, really want to feel a part of a Lions tour – because they don’t represent all of us and they haven't for the best part of two decades. A controversial 50-50 here or a debatable selection there is one thing; being on the margins for 2 generations of Scottish players is quite another.

Theres been a massive lump of preaching on here, saying I'd still support them, but Lions time is always a parochial time. Those who deny this fact are lying to themselves. Until you have been in this position please don't preach and say you wouldn't care, because trust me you would. Because I do.

At this moment the lack of Scottish Lions representation is attracting a fair amount of ire from the north of these islands.  There's an inescapable threat that the Lions and this special concept will soon dissolve into utter indifference up here.

That may bother the corporate sponsors somewhat, but it would bother me as a rugby fan much more than that.

You calling me a liar?!

How many times have the welsh beaten a SH team in the last teen years? How many times have scotloand? A team selected on merit would hardly have any welshmen in it if any.

Griff wrote:Again, Scotland going an about Wales. You beat other teams in the 6N too, right? Give Ireland some stick for a while would ya!

Don't feed that Scottish troll Griff......

I can understand the Scottish frustration.

POM played ONE full 6 nations match (though he was fantastic) gets picked for the tour and now he is the 1st test captain.

Looking at Gatland's selection for the back 3 for the first test I'm pretty sure Hogg would have started if he hadn't been so unlucky.

rapidsnowman wrote:I can understand the Scottish frustration.

POM played ONE full 6 nations match (though he was fantastic) gets picked for the tour and now he is the 1st test captain.

Looking at Gatland's selection for the back 3 for the first test I'm pretty sure Hogg would have started if he hadn't been so unlucky.

You know POM isn't Welsh right?

rapidsnowman wrote:I can understand the Scottish frustration.

POM played ONE full 6 nations match (though he was fantastic) gets picked for the tour and now he is the 1st test captain.

Looking at Gatland's selection for the back 3 for the first test I'm pretty sure Hogg would have started if he hadn't been so unlucky.

But no-one mentions that, rapidsnowman, apart from you! No-one bats an eyelid. The WHOLE focus is on the likes of AWJ, Jonathan Davies, Biggar, et al. But hey ho!

Isn't someone showing form and being picked the opposite of what people are complaining about?

TJ wrote:How many times have the welsh beaten a SH team in the last teen years?  How many times have scotloand?  A team selected on merit would hardly have any welshmen in it if any.  

TJ, I assume by Southern Hemisphere you mean just the tri nations?  Wales have beaten them 3 times in the last 10 years.  Scotland have beaten them 4.  Is that really something you want to claim as a massive difference?  1 more win, ffs.  Pathetic.

Griff wrote:

rapidsnowman wrote:I can understand the Scottish frustration.

POM played ONE full 6 nations match (though he was fantastic) gets picked for the tour and now he is the 1st test captain.

Looking at Gatland's selection for the back 3 for the first test I'm pretty sure Hogg would have started if he hadn't been so unlucky.

But no-one mentions that, rapidsnowman, apart from you!  No-one bats an eyelid.  The WHOLE focus is on the likes of AWJ, Jonathan Davies, Biggar, et al.  But hey ho!

That might be because Peter O'Mahony deserves his place and very few people on here didn't have him featuring in their team to start for the Lions. The players you have listed have been indifferent.

Or it could just be an anti-Welsh conspiracy.

mikey dragon wrote:You know POM isn't Welsh right?

Er...Yes.

My point is, the Scots probably feel their players who performed consistently throughout the 6 nations were not given a chance to improve in the Lions environment when they were just as deserving, if not more so, of the opportunity.

I used POM as an example because I'm Irish. He was probably lucky to get the opportunity (due to lack of 6 nations game time) and he has seized it with both hands and shone in the Lions environment.

Actually I think the Irish fans (as highlighted by carpet baboon) generally feel a couple of their players were lucky to get the call up based on the 6 nations. We are in the opposite boat to the Scots if you like .

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Griff wrote:

rapidsnowman wrote:I can understand the Scottish frustration.

POM played ONE full 6 nations match (though he was fantastic) gets picked for the tour and now he is the 1st test captain.

Looking at Gatland's selection for the back 3 for the first test I'm pretty sure Hogg would have started if he hadn't been so unlucky.

But no-one mentions that, rapidsnowman, apart from you!  No-one bats an eyelid.  The WHOLE focus is on the likes of AWJ, Jonathan Davies, Biggar, et al.  But hey ho!

That might be because Peter O'Mahony deserves his place and very few people on here didn't have him featuring in their team to start for the Lions. The players you have listed have been indifferent.

Or it could just be an anti-Welsh conspiracy.

Didn't say that, and I don't think it. Just commenting on the double standards and lopsided reporting.

EDIT

... throughout the 6 nations were not given a chance to improve in the Lions environment when they were just as deserving,....

Should read: ......chance to prove it in the Lions environment......

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Fanster wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:To me it's not about the success. Winning at all costs isn't winning at all. The last tour I enjoyed was 2009.

2013 is remembered for the wrong reasons in my book. The playing of Hogg at 10, the dropping of BOD and the parachuting in of Shane Williams.

In terms of positive memories, Halfpenny's amazing performances is in there, as is North carrying Folau on his back.

Did we win? Apparently so, but that's not what springs to mind for me anyway.

Even if we muller the all blacks 3 nil, it won't vindicate Gatland for me, nor make me consider the tour a success. Success isn't just about results, it sounds corny but how we get there is more important to me. See 2009 to get an understanding of what I mean.

^^^this is hilarious!

Yeah laugh it up.

A big part, perhaps the biggest part, of being a fan is feeling a sense of belonging to your team and what they represent. Or maybe the biggest part is winning stuff, it probably depends who you ask.

But the belonging thing is certainly in the top two.

You have to understand how hard it is for Scotland supporters to feel part of this particular  Lions tour – and trust me, I personally really, really want to feel a part of a Lions tour – because they don’t represent all of us and they haven't for the best part of two decades. A controversial 50-50 here or a debatable selection there is one thing; being on the margins for 2 generations of Scottish players is quite another.

Theres been a massive lump of preaching on here, saying I'd still support them, but Lions time is always a parochial time. Those who deny this fact are lying to themselves. Until you have been in this position please don't preach and say you wouldn't care, because trust me you would. Because I do.

At this moment the lack of Scottish Lions representation is attracting a fair amount of ire from the north of these islands.  There's an inescapable threat that the Lions and this special concept will soon dissolve into utter indifference up here.

That may bother the corporate sponsors somewhat, but it would bother me as a rugby fan much more than that.

You calling me a liar?!

Well as Jim Telfer said in his speech to the forwards in 97:

"There are two kinds of posters on 606v2, there's the honest ones, and then the rest"

In all seriousness you know what I mean. Every poster on here is parochial whether they are honest about it or not is another matter entirely. I certainly am, and as I've said on numerous threads I'm gutted that we have zero representation.

Griff, I know it's not you that keeps bringing up why Wales keep being mentioned and not the Irish, despite us beating Ireland too . However I would have thought the reason Wales keep getting mentioned is purely down to who is coaching the Lions. That old combo of Howley and Gatland.

What the initial selection reeks of, is Gatland simply doesn't rate us (Scotland that is). He sat in the stands at Murrayfield as we battered Wales. He watched as Hamish Watson got the better of Warburton, Tipuric and Moriarty. He then watched Watson get the better of Faletau too when he came on. 4 Lions, comprehensively outplayed in their head to head. The same can be said against Ireland. Gatland sat in the stands when Sean O'Brien and Stander lost the battle at the breakdown to Barclay and Watson.

Let me be clear too, in my opinion Sam Warburton is one of the best flankers in the world. Whether as a 6 or a 7 he produces phenomenal performances. However, he wasn't fit to tour. Gatland gambled on him becoming fit for the tour and finding form on it, the gamble hasn't paid off, and players that could have pushed into the test team like Robshaw, Barclay or Watson have never had the chance.

AWJ is another, he had a poor 6N, his captaincy was undermined and he generally underperformed in every game. He then got injured, but still made the cut ahead of Launchbury or Johnny Gray and he is now on the test team.

Finn Russell is another, and his call up has raised the Scottish ire to maximum levels. If he doesn't get a run out against the canes there will be riots on here. Biggar in my opinion would have been the one to stay and Russell to go when the tour was selected. However Biggar in my opinion has been the best performing 10 for the Lions and IMO was worth a stab at a test jersey, since Farrell and Sexton have done nothing of note.

Like I said tribal loyalties and parochialism will always influence decisions. I don't buy Gatland's BS about no Scottish coaches were fighting the corner for the Scottish players for Lions inclusion, he has eyes in his head. He can watch games, he is a world renowned coach after all.

Surely as there is carts to horses the word Twickenham will pop up as the perfect excuse to leave Scottish players behind. Yep, England destroyed us. The common misconception is that Scotland played badly. Sure Finn Russell played a suicide pass under immense pressure and Fraser Brown got sin binned (lucky it wasn't a red) for a dangerous tackle on Elliot Daly, but that's not why we lost. We lost because Eddie Jones did his homework. He figured out how our midfield defensive system worked and orchestrated 3 brilliant first phase moves that absolutely shredded our defence.

Despite being hammered we also Scored 3 tries, untill the match against Argentina in the summer England under Jones had only ever conceded one try per game. So we were still testing their defence and making a game out of it.

Going back to parochialism, one bad game condemned us to a paltry 2 Lions, but Wales had only one good game in the 6N against Ireland and were selected en masse.

These are facts, even on here even your were going on about how rubbish you were!

Gwlad wrote:Wales guaranteed of woodenware this term at this rate

Gwlad wrote:Umm, if you're going to just play Gatball then plea bring Doc on

Griff wrote:I watched the Italy 2nd half back again last night. It's one thing to watch the highlights reel where we looked quite good (2nd half). But there were still lots of worrying things even in the 2nd half when we were supposed to be much better (according to the scoreboard). We had a real lack of penetration with the forwards. Moriaty charging into the Italian defense but not making any ground; the props not getting over the gainline. Tipuric from memory not being very effective on the ground.

RiscaGame wrote:20-0 in a half is dreadful.

Scotland were class second half. But we were so so poor.

Gwlad wrote:Skippers job is to lead the team. WIn the game first by taking available points not gambling because just like v Eng, Wales dont make their gambles pay out. Biggar is a whining gob Poopie who was in the wilderness for a long time and no one could figure it out, now we know why he was such a reluctant pick by Gatland. He's like a high strung teenager and literally has tantrums on the pitch.

Griff wrote:
Wales: p*ss poor. Everything went wrong. We tried to force it too much (offloads, etc). One word comes to mind: gash.

My response to you at the time was:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Wow one loss to us and you are going all morrisey on us!!! Scotland have been in the doldrums for the last 15 years! These things are cyclical. You'll have your mojo back soon

Like I said, there are honest posters and the rest

Looking back at this do you still think the Lions selction was right?

What has any of that got to do with your assertion that I would not support the Lions as much if there were less Welsh players? I have demonstrable evidence to the contrary! You're assuming you know me. Just as the Scots have said "don't tell us how we should feel", please don't pretend to know how I personally would react to less Welshmen because you clearly do not know!

P.s. We had a good game against England too.  Performance wise it was good, but obviously we threw it away (or kicked it away) in the last few minutes.  

And against Italy wasn't terrible.  Everyone says Italy are at their best first up, Wales are often at their worst first up, we played away yet still had a comfortable win in the end.  Nothing spectacular.  But not the worst.

The France game was not a terrible performance either.  Not exactly smashed by France.  Weren't we still leading at 100 minutes?  

So we had a bad game against Scotland.  Decent if unspectacular hit out against Italy.  Good battle against England that, IMO, could have gone either way.  A very narrow last gasp loss to France.  A good game against Ireland.

Edit: just to add - don't get me wrong 5th place and only winning 2 games is a travesty for us.  A massive disappointment and underachievement for 2017.  We're not happy with that. But do you really think you had a much better campaign?  You beat Ireland and Wales at home.  Stuffed by England.  Poor against France.  Beat Italy at home.  I'm not happy with 5th but wouldn't be happy with 4th place either.  You've improved since then though IMO and are rightly up there at 4th/5th in the world.  But I don't think your 6N campaign was as amazing as made out.  As I posted elsewhere one of your highlights of the tournament was beating Wales, apparently, but we're awful (apparently) so really you could say you had 1 good win v Ireland and 2 wins against the whipping boys!  Happy days.

Griff wrote:P.s. We had a good game against England too.  Performance wise it was good, but obviously we threw it away (or kicked it away) in the last few minutes.  

And against Italy wasn't terrible.  Everyone says Italy are at their best first up, Wales are often at their worst first up, we played away yet still had a comfortable win in the end.  Nothing spectacular.  But not the worst.

The France game was not a terrible performance either.  Not exactly smashed by France.  Weren't we still leading at 100 minutes?  

So we had a bad game against Scotland.  Decent if unspectacular hit out against Italy.  Good battle against England that, IMO, could have gone either way.  A very narrow last gasp loss to France.  A good game against Ireland.

We had a tremendous game against Ireland
We were overpowered by France 5 HIA in one match.
We were tremendous against Wales
We were hammered by England despite losing Hogg and his replacement Mark Bennett in 20 minutes, Seymour at the 45 minute mark and ended up with a Scrum Half on one wing and a 4ft flyhalf at Fullback and people wonder why we got dicked?!!
We were tremendous against Italy nilling them.

Aparently we need respect to get more lions selections. After that 6N I can only presume we have to win it to get more than 2, because beating 66% of the competition didn't seem to count for anything.

Scotland had a better tournament than Wales and Ireland. Like I said I'm jealous. Jealous because all of you guys are invested in this amazing Lions thing and we are not.

"four more years boys... four more years"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65xd81cj7pA

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:P.s. We had a good game against England too.  Performance wise it was good, but obviously we threw it away (or kicked it away) in the last few minutes.  

And against Italy wasn't terrible.  Everyone says Italy are at their best first up, Wales are often at their worst first up, we played away yet still had a comfortable win in the end.  Nothing spectacular.  But not the worst.

The France game was not a terrible performance either.  Not exactly smashed by France.  Weren't we still leading at 100 minutes?  

So we had a bad game against Scotland.  Decent if unspectacular hit out against Italy.  Good battle against England that, IMO, could have gone either way.  A very narrow last gasp loss to France.  A good game against Ireland.

We had a tremendous game against Ireland
We were overpowered by France 5 HIA in one match.
We were tremendous against Wales
We were hammered by England despite losing Hogg and his replacement Mark Bennett in 20 minutes, Seymour at the 45 minute mark and ended up with a Scrum Half on one wing and a 4ft flyhalf at Fullback and people wonder why we got dicked?!!
We were tremendous against Italy nilling them.

Aparently we need respect to get more lions selections. After that 6N I can only presume we have to win it to get more than 2, because beating 66% of the competition didn't seem to count for anything.

Scotland had a better tournament than Wales and Ireland. Like I said I'm jealous. Jealous because all of you guys are invested in this amazing Lions thing and we are not.

"four more years boys... four more years"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65xd81cj7pA

See my edited post above.

Griff wrote:You beat Ireland and Wales at home.  Stuffed by England.  Poor against France.  Beat Italy at home.  I'm not happy with 5th but wouldn't be happy with 4th place either.  You've improved since then though IMO and are rightly up there at 4th/5th in the world.  But I don't think your 6N campaign was as amazing as made out.

Had Howley and his band of merry men beaten France, we would have been third! When are you going to realise it's your fault!???

Had England not choked on their Irish coffee we would have been 2nd!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:You beat Ireland and Wales at home.  Stuffed by England.  Poor against France.  Beat Italy at home.  I'm not happy with 5th but wouldn't be happy with 4th place either.  You've improved since then though IMO and are rightly up there at 4th/5th in the world.  But I don't think your 6N campaign was as amazing as made out.

Had Howley and his band of merry men beaten France, we would have been third! When are you going to realise it's your fault!???

Had England not choked on their Irish coffee we would have been 2nd!

What are you on about?

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:You beat Ireland and Wales at home.  Stuffed by England.  Poor against France.  Beat Italy at home.  I'm not happy with 5th but wouldn't be happy with 4th place either.  You've improved since then though IMO and are rightly up there at 4th/5th in the world.  But I don't think your 6N campaign was as amazing as made out.

Had Howley and his band of merry men beaten France, we would have been third! When are you going to realise it's your fault!???

Had England not choked on their Irish coffee we would have been 2nd!

What are you on about?  

It's a Joke, this whole why are you picking on Wales thing. Nevermind

Honestly, I don't know where you're going with this now. You started off trying to tell me how I feel when there's less Welsh players in the Lions. Then you pull up quotes showing we weren't happy with our performance, which were weren't and no-on was disputing. Now you're talking about realizing it's our fault? No-one was saying it was anyone else's fault. Then you start with the 'ifs and buts' about where you could have finished in the table?! WTF? Have you been drinking?

Look, if you're happy with your 6N performance then good for you. I'm not happy with 5th for us. I wouldn't be happy with 4th. I won't be happy until we're winning the thing again or at least challenging for the top spot on the last day.

Griff wrote:Honestly, I don't know where you're going with this now.  You started off trying to tell me how I feel when there's less Welsh players in the Lions.  Then you pull up quotes showing we weren't happy with our performance, which were weren't and no-on was disputing.  Now you're talking about realizing it's our fault?  No-one was saying it was anyone else's fault.  Then you start with the 'ifs and buts' about where you could have finished in the table?!  WTF?  Have you been drinking?

Look, if you're happy with your 6N performance then good for you.  I'm not happy with 5th for us.  I wouldn't be happy with 4th.  I won't be happy until we're winning the thing again or at least challenging for the top spot on the last day.  

Griff, the "your fault" post was Radge making a joke about the fact that on the final day of the 6N, if results had gone the right way, Scotland could have finished 2nd. Wales losing to France and England losing to Ireland scuppered that ...

I got the joke and I'm not even from one of the 6N nations.

Ah right! Gotcha. Constantly 'fire fighting' means it's difficult to pick up on the humour and not just assume its another dig or snide comment!

You really don't need to fire fight.

Griff wrote:Honestly, I don't know where you're going with this now.  You started off trying to tell me how I feel when there's less Welsh players in the Lions.  Then you pull up quotes showing we weren't happy with our performance, which were weren't and no-on was disputing.  Now you're talking about realizing it's our fault?  No-one was saying it was anyone else's fault.  Then you start with the 'ifs and buts' about where you could have finished in the table?!  WTF?  Have you been drinking?

Look, if you're happy with your 6N performance then good for you.  I'm not happy with 5th for us.  I wouldn't be happy with 4th.  I won't be happy until we're winning the thing again or at least challenging for the top spot on the last day.  

Wow, sense of humour failure!

You said :

Griff wrote: I'm not happy with 5th but wouldn't be happy with 4th place either.

I tried to make a joke saying that had Wales beaten France Scotland would have been propelled to third, and then tried to say it's your (Wales) fault we don't have as many lions because we finished lower in the table....

like I said. Never mind!

Griff wrote:

rapidsnowman wrote:I can understand the Scottish frustration.

POM played ONE full 6 nations match (though he was fantastic) gets picked for the tour and now he is the 1st test captain.

Looking at Gatland's selection for the back 3 for the first test I'm pretty sure Hogg would have started if he hadn't been so unlucky.

But no-one mentions that, rapidsnowman, apart from you!  No-one bats an eyelid.  The WHOLE focus is on the likes of AWJ, Jonathan Davies, Biggar, et al.  But hey ho!

Can you explain why it's only me to be vilified when I point this out? All one-way traffic from the English and some token Scots by the way, not the Irish.

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:How many times have the welsh beaten a SH team in the last teen years?  How many times have scotloand?  A team selected on merit would hardly have any welshmen in it if any.  

TJ, I assume by Southern Hemisphere you mean just the tri nations?  Wales have beaten them 3 times in the last 10 years.  Scotland have beaten them 4.  Is that really something you want to claim as a massive difference?  1 more win, ffs.  Pathetic.

How many Scotland losses to Wales and Italy in that 10 years.... Yes Scotland are a lot better now, but that's just daft from TJ there.

By the way Griff, don't feed the trolls!

Scotland have played Australia 6 times - 2009 onwards. 3 won, 3 lost... 2 of those losses by 1 point. The other by 6.

Wales have played Australia 12 times - 2009 onwards. Lost 12 in a row.


Scotland are more comfortable playing Australia than they are the likes of Wales and England.

beshocked wrote:Scotland have played Australia 6 times - 2009 onwards.  3 won, 3 lost... 2 of those losses by 1 point. The other by 6.

Wales have played Australia 12 times - 2009 onwards. Lost 12 in a row.


Scotland are more comfortable playing Australia than they are the likes of Wales and England.

I've already answered TJ above, but I notice he has not responded. 4 wins vs 3 in the last 10 years v SH opposition! Very little difference, but certainly nothing to write home about from both sides.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:

rapidsnowman wrote:I can understand the Scottish frustration.

POM played ONE full 6 nations match (though he was fantastic) gets picked for the tour and now he is the 1st test captain.

Looking at Gatland's selection for the back 3 for the first test I'm pretty sure Hogg would have started if he hadn't been so unlucky.

But no-one mentions that, rapidsnowman, apart from you!  No-one bats an eyelid.  The WHOLE focus is on the likes of AWJ, Jonathan Davies, Biggar, et al.  But hey ho!

Can you explain why it's only me to be vilified when I point this out? All one-way traffic from the English and some token Scots by the way, not the Irish.

Because you consider it Welsh bashing whereas others (myself included) consider it just player bashing. They're not all out to get Wales, but they do have a dislike for a number of Welsh players. Big difference.

Griff wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:

rapidsnowman wrote:I can understand the Scottish frustration.

POM played ONE full 6 nations match (though he was fantastic) gets picked for the tour and now he is the 1st test captain.

Looking at Gatland's selection for the back 3 for the first test I'm pretty sure Hogg would have started if he hadn't been so unlucky.

But no-one mentions that, rapidsnowman, apart from you!  No-one bats an eyelid.  The WHOLE focus is on the likes of AWJ, Jonathan Davies, Biggar, et al.  But hey ho!

Can you explain why it's only me to be vilified when I point this out? All one-way traffic from the English and some token Scots by the way, not the Irish.

Because you consider it Welsh bashing whereas others (myself included) consider it just player bashing. They're not all out to get Wales, but they do have a dislike for a number of Welsh players. Big difference.

Yeah a big dislike for Welsh players, fans, pundits, commentators, celebs, daffodils...