Dragons Season Thread 2017/18 - New Beginnings

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Too early?!  Never mind.

So, big changes are afoot at Dave Parade.  There's been loads of arguments about the best way forward, the pros and cons of regional v club rugby, and I'm sure there'll be many more to come.  But what's done is done and, for now, we have a pro team at Dave Parade to support next year.  A few weeks ago even that was in jeopardy.  So moving forward...

Ownership:
So the WRU has taken over the reigns.  I'll add updates here as and when we know them, but the formal split from Newport RFC should mean 'cleaner' or more straightforward to understand revenue streams.  

Pitch:
A new one is being laid as we speak.  This original pitch has been part and parcel of the problems at RP for a number of years.  A BBC report showed it to be up there as the most used pitch pro pitch in the UK.  Something had to be done.  A fully synthetic pitch was mooted and preferred by some, a al Blues, Saracens, Glasgow, et al.  However, FA rules state that football clubs cannot play on these surfaces (probably since the AstroTurf days of Luton Town, etc.).  So it looks like a compromise has been agreed with a 4g semi-synthetic pitch, like those used by many football clubs, Swansea City/Ospreys, Millennium Stadium, Aviva Stadium, Twickenham, Murrayfield, Cardiff City stadium, etc.  A weave of synthetic fibres and real grass meaning it's easier to maintain, less prone to weather damage, but still sort of like the real thing.  This will be a real move forward and should improve the product on the field.  A bit.

Personnel:
New coach - Huw Jackman.  Comes with a good reputation for hard work and attacking rugby.  Good stuff.
Gavin Henson - I'm happy with this.  Despite his knockers, so to speak, he is still a classy club player and performed well in the English Prem with Bristol, when not injured.  Which is the crux of the issue.  Hopefully we can keep him fit for an extended run of games.
Zane Kirchner - On paper a quality player but as with a lot of good players, when they are in the twighlight of their careers and join a 'lesser' club more often than not they do not perform as expected.  Let's hope he is an exception to the rule.  Did Jackman and Kirchner play together at Leinster?


Transfers In:

Bernard 'No Pudding' Jackman - coach
Gavin Henson
Zane Kirchner

Transfers Out:
Shaun Knight
Nick Crosswell
Tom Prydie
Geraint Rhys Jones
Darren Harris
Craig Mitchell


New Badge:

[Luckless Pedestrian]

That all sounds fair enough to me.

Not to me it doesn't.

Look, I am not going to get into the semantics of it all on here, as I will just get shouted out of town by some of the more passionate Gwent Dragon supporters on this forum. But what went on in that fixture was wrong.

Which parts of what Jackman said do you disagree with?

[LordDowlais]

Which parts of what Jackman said do you disagree with?

All of it. He was talking bollox.

Why is he worrying about a fixture that is 3 or 4 months away ?

Look, I do not want to get caught up in all this as the usual suspects, one who has already started with his childish name calling, will be all over me like a tramp on chips.

I do not agree with what was done on Friday night. Not only was their disrespect shown to the Pro14, but to Ulster RFC and their fans as well. These are just my opinions, and I do not expect anybody to agree with them.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

"Everybody else rotates their squad," he said. "The Irish have been doing it for years but what they have is depth when they don't have their frontline players.

"I need to get that depth and that's the project. Anyone who plays well will get bumped up the depth chart.

"We have to be very selfish about what the Dragons need this year so that we can be good next year.

"I believe we need a really good mix of targeting games to get that winning feeling and also need to upskill the players that don't play in those targeted games."

------------------

You don't agree with any of that?

[LordDowlais]

I used to disagree with the Irish provinces sending over second string sides to play the regions as well.

Getting 50 points put on you with a team full of kids and 2nd choice players does no good for anything.

[ScarletSpiderman]

I had to laugh at them on Scrum V last night. The Dargons were wrong to rotate against Ulster at Ravenhill (where they would have lost with their full team), but they should rotate against the Kings at home (as there is a chance the Dragons kids could sneak a win). Total tosh.

If you are not going to win the game regardless, then that is the time to rest up. The Dragons can feild a rested full strength team against he Kings, and possibly pick up a BP win at home. Surely that is worth it.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I used to disagree with the Irish provinces sending over second string sides to play the regions as well.

Getting 50 points put on you with a team full of kids and 2nd choice players does no good for anything.

That's not true. It exposes those players to the realities of professional rugby, and they'll either improve or get shipped out.

[LordDowlais]

If you are not going to win the game regardless, then that is the time to rest up. The Dragons can feild a rested full strength team against he Kings, and possibly pick up a BP win at home. Surely that is worth it.

Exactly, if you are going to do this sort of thing, then do not let it make you look foolish, at least be competitive. Perhaps they should have rested up most of the team next week, although I do not agree with that either, there is resting players, and then there what Dragons did last Friday, and the latter was very foolish.

[Guest]

If you are not going to win the game regardless, then that is the time to rest up. The Dragons can feild a rested full strength team against he Kings, and possibly pick up a BP win at home. Surely that is worth it.

Exactly, if you are going to do this sort of thing, then do not let it make you look foolish, at least be competitive. Perhaps they should have rested up most of the team next week, although I do not agree with that either, there is resting players, and then there what Dragons did last Friday, and the latter was very foolish.

SS seems to be disagreeing with you LD, not agreeing. If we'd rested against Kings then we'd run the risk of losing that one on top of the likely loss anyway to Ulster. But resting against Ulster gives us the best chance of a return out of the 2 fixtures. I think that's what SS is saying too.

As Jackman alluded to, everyone rests/rotates in the modern game. It's just more noticeable with us as the 2nd string is a big step down. Doesn't mean we shouldn't rotate/rest though. We can't just play the first team every game in every competition. If we didn't rotate we'd be dead by Christmas. Perhaps that's what happened last year when we won nothing from January onwards and some of our best stars (e.g. Amos) missed much of the 2nd half of the season or more.

It will also help Jackman identify the weaknesses. Unfortunately when a new coach comes in he can't just bring in who he wants unless he's at a super rich club. There will be loads of players there with 2 or 3 years perhaps still to run on their contracts, so the wage bill be be up to max pretty much. So unfortunately it's a bit of a waiting game until these guys can be shown the door. Until then some players will just be fillers and will be asked to play in the 2nd string. Or ideally they'll respond to the new coaching team and will improve and push for starting in the 1st team. As Jackman said, not everyone was rubbish against Ulster. Some of the 2nd string impressed him and put their hands up.

[ScarletSpiderman]

If you are not going to win the game regardless, then that is the time to rest up. The Dragons can feild a rested full strength team against he Kings, and possibly pick up a BP win at home. Surely that is worth it.

Exactly, if you are going to do this sort of thing, then do not let it make you look foolish, at least be competitive. Perhaps they should have rested up most of the team next week, although I do not agree with that either, there is resting players, and then there what Dragons did last Friday, and the latter was very foolish.

Erm, i think you mis-read what I said.

If you are going to lose by more than 8 then you may as well lose by 100, it makes no difference. So seeing as the Dragons were not going to get within 8 of Ulster, I think they did the right think and rested up players. Now they can feild a rested up side against the Kings at Dave, and porbably put a winning BP on them.

Scrum V suggested that tehy should have sent a full strength side to Ravenhill, and still lost but closer. And then feilded kids in the game against the Kings, as they kids may beat the Kings. That just seems stupid to me, as that is gambling on what should be a safe 4/5pts, by weakening your side. And also it is depriving the home support of seeing their fist choice team.

At the position the Dragons are in, the priority games are those at Rodney Parade, then games that they have a realistic chance of winning away (I would said the Italians, but maybe replace Treviso with the Ospreys/Blues this season), and then away games where tehy will be fighting to try to get a losing BP.

A home win against the Kings, hopefully with a BP will be far more valuable to the team going forward, than putting in a 'brave' loss where tehy narrowly missed out on a LBP. It's about taking short term pain for the long term gain.

[LordDowlais]

If you are going to lose by more than 8 then you may as well lose by 100

50 point drubbings are no good for anyone.

At least if you lost by 10pts, you can turn around and say, well we did our best, we nearly had them.... ect

But now those boys who were thrown to the wolves on Friday night have been left licking their wounds.

Also, has a president now been set ? Will it become acceptable to do this in any game where you think that you will not get anything of it ?

Dragons have to play Scarlets some time this season, would you be happy to a team full of kids rock up to play you ? Would Dragons fans be happy to see it ? I wouldn't. I pay my money to see the best players available. Not one sided maulings against massively changed 2nd and 3rd teamers.

But like I said, it is just my opinion, people do not have to agree with it.

[LordDowlais]

As Jackman alluded to, everyone rests/rotates in the modern game. It's just more noticeable with us as the 2nd string is a big step down.

Yes I agree, but come on, that was not rotating that was making wholesale changes. Dragons more or less threw that game. It was wrong.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

If you are going to lose by more than 8 then you may as well lose by 100

50 point drubbings are no good for anyone.

At least if you lost by 10pts, you can turn around and say, well we did our best, we nearly had them.... ect

But now those boys who were thrown to the wolves on Friday night have been left licking their wounds.

Dowlais, we've been to plenty of grounds and said 'well we did our best, we nearly had them', and I'm tired of it. I want us to have the strength of squad that means we can go to these grounds and win. If this is part of the process that leads to that, then I have no problem with it.

[LordDowlais]

Fortunately, 'those boys who were thrown to the wolves' won't be starting or even playing at all this weekend - it'll be our rested first-choice team, who will be fresh for the game, and who won last time out.

So what did Dragons achieve on Friday night ? Besides showing players how to take a drubbing ?

What ever little experience they gained from that farce, it will be forgotten by the next time they play as they will all be dropped, like I said, this sort of thing is no good to anyone.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Yes Dowlais, you've said it three times now and it's still not true. Every player that played on Friday knows now, if they didn't know beforehand, that you have to be damn good to earn a living as a professional rugby player, and that if they want to avoid defeats like that in the future - or more accurately, if they want more opportunities to play in this league again - they'll have to improve.

[LordDowlais]

Dowlais, we've been to plenty of grounds and said 'well we did our best, we nearly had them', and I'm tired of it. I want us to have the strength of squad that means we can go to these grounds and win. If this is part of the process that leads to that, then I have no problem with it.

LP, I am all for blooding new players, getting people to cut their teeth ect..

But what happened on Friday night was wrong on so many levels. Can you honestly say in your heart of hearts that making that many changes was necessary ?

Dragons could have done the same thing over a number of games, bringing in players a few at a time. They could have kept some more experienced players and integrated a few young or 2nd team players at a time. At least the youngsters could have learned something off the more experienced players this way.

Look, it's just my opinion, but I cannot see what was learned on Friday night with this exorcise, nor can I see any justification for doing it.

[ScarletSpiderman]

If you are going to lose by more than 8 then you may as well lose by 100

50 point drubbings are no good for anyone.

At least if you lost by 10pts, you can turn around and say, well we did our best, we nearly had them.... ect

But now those boys who were thrown to the wolves on Friday night have been left licking their wounds.

Dowlais, we've been to plenty of grounds and said 'well we did our best, we nearly had them', and I'm tired of it. I want us to have the strength of squad that means we can go to these grounds and win. If this is part of the process that leads to that, then I have no problem with it.

Exactly. Those lads do need to go and kick their wounds. And part of that process is them looking at themselves and asking “do I really want to be a top teir player? I’ve come up against some of the best now. Do I have what it takes to go away and improve upon myself?”. Odds are there will be one or two who decide that they are not up to it, but there will be more that take it is a reality check and up their game in the gym and on the training paddock. (Look at the Welsh team who got destroyed in SA, there were some real stars who came out of that).

Nobody enjoys having to be tough upon youngster/fringe players, and it would be really nice to be able to bring players in slowly, in a winning side. But realistically you find out more about a person in hard times than you do in good times.

[LordDowlais]

Yes Dowlais, you've said it three times now and it's still not true. Every player that played on Friday knows now, if they didn't know beforehand, that you have to be damn good to earn a living as a professional rugby player, and that if they want to avoid defeats like that in the future - or more accurately, if they want more opportunities to play in this league again -  they'll have to improve.

They will not improve if they are thrown to the wolves once every now and again, how can they ? If the side that was picked on Friday night was the side being used going forward, for a number of games then I could see the point of doing it, but for me, and I'm sorry to say this, it looks like that game was just thrown, and it does not sit well with me, sorry.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

That's fine, I can live with that.

[LordDowlais]

(Look at the Welsh team who got destroyed in SA, there were some real stars who came out of that).

Who ?

This was the team who played that game:-

B Hayward (D Williams 48); D James, M Taylor, J Funnell (S Jones 50), G Evans; A Thomas, P John (D Llewellyn 79); M Griffiths, B Williams (G Jenkins 66), J Davies (D Morris 60), I Gough, A Moore, N Thomas, C Charvis (G Lewis 71), K Jones, captain (C Wyatt 40).

Most of those players were already established players. I assume it was Gethin Jenkins who came on for Barry Williams, so you can have him.

[Stone Motif]

They could have kept some more experienced players and integrated  a few young or 2nd team players at a time. At least the youngsters could have learned something off the more experienced players this way.

It's idiocy like this that makes people lose patience Andy. That's exactly what they did do - Meyer, Hughes, Howard, Landman, Screech, Fairbrother, Buckles, Harris - these are all players who have been in and around the first team. I can't see many debutante, in fact I'd guess the team that played Connacht was less experienced and probably younger.

The issue here is a lot of these players aren't very good, and you have your Western Fail head on expecting them to win every game.

[Guest]

(Look at the Welsh team who got destroyed in SA, there were some real stars who came out of that).

Who ?

This was the team who played that game:-

B Hayward (D Williams 48); D James, M Taylor, J Funnell (S Jones 50), G Evans; A Thomas, P John (D Llewellyn 79); M Griffiths, B Williams (G Jenkins 66), J Davies (D Morris 60), I Gough, A Moore, N Thomas, C Charvis (G Lewis 71), K Jones, captain (C Wyatt 40).

Most of those players were already established players. I assume it was Gethin Jenkins who came on for Barry Williams, so you can have him.

Yeah, you're sort of proving his point LD. Those players were shown up as being absolutely horrific against top opposition. A large number of them knuckled down, improved and went on to be top players. They perhaps had a wake up call that you can't play like that and expect to win. A year later a number of them were involved in the win over SA at the new MS. 3 years after the game a number of them went on to star for the Lions in Aus.

[RiscaGame]

I don't know when the Dragons were supposed to rest players otherwise? During a very winnable home game? During our biggest derby the following week?

[Stone Motif]

I don't know when the Dragons were supposed to rest players otherwise? During a very winnable home game? During our biggest derby the following week?

We're not, Andy's narrative is that we are supposed to play our galacticos every week and sweep all before us. Budgets, fixture list, squad depth, injuries - meh. Why shouldn't we be winning every game?

Food for thought?

[mikey_dragon]

I don't know when the Dragons were supposed to rest players otherwise? During a very winnable home game? During our biggest derby the following week?

We're not, Andy's narrative is that we are supposed to play our galacticos every week and sweep all before us. Budgets, fixture list, squad depth, injuries - meh. Why shouldn't we be winning every game?

Food for thought?

Exactly. BJ had to pick a game to do it and it happened to be this one. I’m not particularly pleased about it but I can accept that due to years of mismanagement and poor coaches that’s the squad we now have.

Apparently the WRU were going to work with Jackman to bring in some more players to strengthen the squad but he declined so that he could see what the current crop were capable of. This season is a write-off and BJ is building a squad for the future. We weren’t going to get anywhere this season anyway Andy. I think I like Jackman’s thinking here. When he axes a few next season he can say “well I gave you a chance last season and you fu/k3d it up.”

[ScarletSpiderman]

(Look at the Welsh team who got destroyed in SA, there were some real stars who came out of that).

Who ?

This was the team who played that game:-

B Hayward (D Williams 48); D James, M Taylor, J Funnell (S Jones 50), G Evans; A Thomas, P John (D Llewellyn 79); M Griffiths, B Williams (G Jenkins 66), J Davies (D Morris 60), I Gough, A Moore, N Thomas, C Charvis (G Lewis 71), K Jones, captain (C Wyatt 40).

Most of those players were already established players. I assume it was Gethin Jenkins who came on for Barry Williams, so you can have him.

Daf James (That was early days for him)
Steve Jones (believe it was his first cap)
Ian Gough (was early days for him, possibly first cap)

[Luckless Pedestrian]

This season is a write-off and BJ is building a squad for the future. We weren’t going to get anywhere this season anyway.

Well that's not necessarily true - we might see an improvement (in results) earlier than expected. Our skills have definitely improved already, arguably our set piece too, and we're looking to play an offloading game when we can. I'd like to think we'll take some scalps this season, but the focus is definitely on long-term improvement / success, and it's about time too.

[RiscaGame]

Definitely a change in playing style and attacking mindset. I'm happy where we are, as it stands.

Thought I'd picked up a task Saturday and was going to miss this. Luckily I've avoided it, so it's an away game down Pill (nice) and then a walk to Dave. Hopefully get to try out the new bar.

[RiscaGame]

Harri Keddie has been ruled out for three months. We are down to three senior back rowers now (JT, Benjamin and Griffiths). Makes you wonder why people criticise us for resting players in certain games and trying to get some more depth.

In better news.

The Dragons have been boosted by Wales centre Tyler Morgan returning to full training following a blow to the ribs suffered against Connacht and he is set to partner Jack Dixon in midfield.

Head coach Bernard Jackman is likely to make just a couple changes to the XV that beat Connacht with Thomas coming in for Keddie while Carl Meyer will start at full-back following Zane Kirchner’s shoulder injury against the Irish province.

The former Springbok went under the knife on Monday and will be targeting a return in the New Year.

The sole selection dilemma is whether Rynard Landman or Matthew Screech partners captain Cory Hill in the second row.

On-loan Cardiff Blues scrum-half Dane Blacker will be Sarel Pretorius’ back-up after impressing with a try and an assist off the bench in the heavy defeat at Ulster.

[mikey_dragon]

This season is a write-off and BJ is building a squad for the future. We weren’t going to get anywhere this season anyway.

Well that's not necessarily true - we might see an improvement (in results) earlier than expected. Our skills have definitely improved already, arguably our set piece too, and we're looking to play an offloading game when we can. I'd like to think we'll take some scalps this season, but the focus is definitely on long-term improvement / success, and it's about time too.

I agree with all of that. My comment was alluding to long-tern planning. Regarding the bit you have bolded I was thinking more about silverware, league-topping, etc.

[mikey_dragon]

At least in the Ulster defeat Jackman came to realise that we have much better 9’s than Knoyle and Davies.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Unfortunately Blacker's not ours long term - unless the WRU can pull some strings....

[RiscaGame]

I'm sure he'd rather play second choice than nothing. Sign him up Bernard

[mikey_dragon]

It wouldn’t be the first time that someone originally signed as cover and became a permanent employee at that team. Jackman may also look for back-row cover given the way it’s going for us.

[Stone Motif]

It wouldn’t be the first time that someone originally signed as cover and became a permanent employee at that team. Jackman may also look for back-row cover given the way it’s going for us.

Lewis Evans apparently could be back in October - if so you'd have to go 6. Evans 7. Benjamin 8. Griffiths in the current circumstances. Number 8 is a huge problem for us - not signing a replacement for Ed Jackson is how looking as daft as predicted.

[RiscaGame]

Genius decision Kingsley letting Nick Crosswell leave, to free up an NWQ slot we haven't used too.

[Stone Motif]

Genius decision Kingsley letting Nick Crosswell leave, to free up an NWQ slot we haven't used too.

Yeah, this. He would hardly have been on megabucks either.

[LordDowlais]

Martyn Williams is saying that Ollie Griffiths needs to leave Dragons to further his international ambitions.

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/15555972.Wales_legend_says_Ollie_Griffiths_may_have_to_leave_Dragons_to_catch_Gatland_s_eye/

[Guest]

Makes no sense to me.  If the national coach really does deliberately overlook a player based on the team he plays for then he needs sacking.  Deliberately reducing your options is just bonkers and makes no logical sense.  So assuming that's not the case I think he'll get picked if he's playing well.  

We need 4 strong regions, not 1 strong one (Scarlets).  Much better to have four strong competing opensides in separate teams (with 4 half decent understudies ideally) than having 4 decent opensides at just two teams, with quality players then forced to the bench and decent understudies blocked and forced to move away.  At least at the Dragons he has a good chance of making the match day squad and is, probably, considered an integral squad member.  At the Blues, Ospreys and Scarlets he'd be down the pecking order behind the likes of Ellis Jenkins, Sam WaRbUrton, James Davies, Tipuric, et al.  He just needs to play at this stage in his career.  The rest will come.  And if in future he is deemed a better option than Warbs or Tips then perhaps one of those teams can sign him as first choice, but to move now only to be bench material is a waste.  IMO.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

He contradicts himself in that interview anyway. He ends by saying, 'there is no doubt he will get his day in a Welsh jersey,' which is an admission that they'll pick him regardless. He just wants him at the Blues, that's all it is.

[mikey_dragon]

There’s a few quality Welsh players playing in England. Rather than divide up the Dragons these guys should be brought in to strengthen the squad. Same can be said for that sinking ship Blues - I’m convinced that outside of No.7 they now have as much squad fodder as us.

[LordDowlais]

There’s a few quality Welsh players playing in England. Rather than divide up the Dragons these guys should be brought in to strengthen the squad. Same can be said for that sinking ship Blues - I’m convinced that outside of No.7 they now have as much squad fodder as us.

Hang on.. I feel a bit...

But for once I agree with mikey.

The WRU own Dragons, they are not short of a few bob, let's get these players back in Wales, and if the WRU want carte blanche over them, and control of how they are used, stick them in Gwent.

[Stone Motif]

There’s a few quality Welsh players playing in England. Rather than divide up the Dragons these guys should be brought in to strengthen the squad. Same can be said for that sinking ship Blues - I’m convinced that outside of No.7 they now have as much squad fodder as us.

Hang on.. I feel a bit...

But for once I agree with mikey.

The WRU own Dragons, they are not short of a few bob, let's get these players back in Wales, and if the WRU want carte blanche over them, and control of how they are used, stick them in Gwent.

Except hey can't do that,because of their new liabilities that came with the ground, and oh, the RSA.

[Stone Motif]

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/15559063.Dragons_boss_Jackman_to_keep_tinkering_in_hunt_for_more_power/

Hadn't thought of it this way. Makes sense, I'm not sure what kind of quality S&C most of our lot have been exposed to. Jackman's made the right noises non that front. Sort the wheat from the chaff, get them strong, and supplement those that make the grade next season with signings seems to be the plan.

[mikey_dragon]

I think we might get a few more call-ups for Wales this year. I was thinking the likes of Dee, Brown, Griffiths, Dixon, Hewitt and Amos are the most likely players. I’ve left out Hill as I think Seb Davies will get that place instead.

[Stone Motif]

I think we might get a few more call-ups for Wales this year. I was thinking the likes of Dee, Brown, Griffiths, Dixon, Hewitt and Amos are the most likely players. I’ve left out Hill as I think Seb Davies will get that place instead.

If Dee doesn't finally oust that lion-fondling imposter down west Gatland should never tell anyone he was once a hooker again

[mikey_dragon]

If guys like Baldwin, Sam Davies and Cuthbert are picked then I’ll lose all faith in humanity.

[RiscaGame]

Thought Jackman was spot on with everything he said about yesterday and next week. Dragons should've really turned the screw last night and you could tell it was a big thing getting a BP. I also agree that Cardiff should be four times better than us next week. Very likeable, intelligent man.

Thought there looked more than 5200 there last night. Certainly the Bisley was fuller than normal.

Great to get a win though and a BP in those conditions. Pleased to see the driving lineout return and we had the confidence to play a bit in that awful weather.

[RiscaGame]

Jackman was also spot on with what he said about Dee.

[Stone Motif]

Jackman was also spot on with what he said about Baldwin

Fixed

[Luckless Pedestrian]

The Dragons now turn their attention to a tough October on the road with games in Cardiff, Newcastle, Moscow and Swansea.

After two seasons of derby whitewashes, a success against either Cardiff Blues or the Ospreys would make their biggest statement of the new era.

Yep.

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