England vs South Africa - test series thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

In the fast paced nature of international cricket, we are just over a week away from the first of four test matches between SA and England - should be a good one.

South Africa have named their squad...missing some big names in Steyn, ABDV - also no Dane Piedt, Stephen Cook either.

South Africa squad: Faf du Plessis (captain), Hashim Amla, Temba Bavuma, Theunis de Bruyn, Quinton de Kock, JP Duminy, Dean Elgar, Heino Kuhn, Keshav Maharaj, Aiden Markram, Morne Morkel, Chris Morris, Duanne Olivier, Andile Phehlukwayo, Vernon Philander, Kagiso Rabada.

Still a very strong team - especially in the seam bowling ranks. Although with Faf missing the first test, the batting is reliant on Amla and De Kock I feel

England have a few injury concerns - particularly Stuart Broad - any thoughts on the SA squad, and potential England one?

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

South Africa look all gone against spin since they played India on raging turners in 2016. Ali is a fairly average spinner yet they can't help donating him wickets

[VTR]

This is a one brings three kind of pitch - has been all game. This should be over pretty quickly now

[alfie]

Moeen will be happy to see a left-hander arriving at the crease too.

and there you go. Really poor shot from De Kock IMO, no need to chase those when you've just come in and with tea fast approaching. Moeen strikes again, and the old adage of adding two wickets to the score becomes relevant again.

De Kock looks great when he's attacking on a good pitch : after some of his efforts in this series I am not sure that he is actually as good as his raw figures suggest .

Moeen having a purple patch with three wickets to have the fat lady warming up over tea...

And another fine catch from Stokes by the way. One area where England have clearly outdone SA throughout.

[dummy_half]

Again, 15 minutes turns the game from looking a bit edgy to very much in England's favour.

[GSC]

Hales now to a double hundred off 201 balls

[GSC]

Hameeb up to 38* from 114. Growing in confidence?

He has already been overtaken by Livingstone however

[Gooseberry]

Its fair to say that SA are even worse at playing attacking spinners than England are but Moeens been a revelation this series. His returns are far better than anything hes managed before.
I hope this gives him back the confidence to be a spinner and feel he can be forgiven the odd bad game.

[king_carlos]

You could certainly say that Hameed's batting like a man who knows he could be one innings away from being right in the reckoning for the Windies series.

[alfie]

South Africa look all gone against spin since they played India on raging turners in 2016. Ali is a fairly average spinner yet they can't help donating him wickets

Think you're underselling Moeen there.

A Swann he ain't . But he is a better bowler than many assume. Don't forget he had a lot of success against India in England a couple of years back also. And he has over a hundred wickets now so hard to call it a fluke.

He's been a bit up and down over the last couple of years , it is true - confidence may have been an issue. But I think he is steadily getting better at his craft ...perhaps coming to a realization that his role is as a bowler first in this side ?

So far he's not done well in Asia. I wonder if the fact that when England tour there he tends to be pushed up the batting order and seems to see himself as secondary to the "other" spinners (mainly Rashid) is the key factor ?
Reckon he will have spin to himself in Australia so hopefully he continues to get better...

[Gooseberry]

On the batters debate Hales and Ballance should only come back at 5 or lower .
In Hales case I cant help feeling you have to either let him bat like Stokes and get the occassional attacking hundredor out for 10. Trying to change him holds more risk for his T20 game than it does and likely short term test benefit. Id also caution that clubbing half baked county attacks around as he dossn is very different to coming in 3 down for 30 in Aus with Starc riled up.

But equally hes the sort of genuine talent that opposition players would fear more than an honest county pro like Stoneman.

Hameed sounds encouraging even if he still doesnt have any scoring shots. Perhaps the perfect foil for Hales!

[king_carlos]

Its fair to say that SA are even worse at playing attacking spinners than England are but Moeens been a revelation this series. His returns are far better than anything hes managed before.
I hope this gives him back the confidence to be a spinner and feel he can be forgiven the odd bad game.

His bowling has been at it's best when he has been allowed to concentrate more on his bowling that batting.

Keep Moeen at 8, find another spinner to have around the squad - Crane or Leach? Then if two spinners are needed for the pitch you can drop the 4th seamer and still have a 5 man attack with Moeen batting at 8.

People will still fairly argue that Moeen lacks the consistency to pressure good players of spin without very favourable conditions. He has however earned the right to be England's first choice spinner until another contender really throws their hand-up.

[Gooseberry]

Carlos he always bats like that.

[Gooseberry]

I agree Carlos...if youre going to havr another spinner it has to be one thats technicaly better. Trying to pretend he was second spinner to a notably poorer bowler was just dumb.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Hales has a double hundred, Hameed edges towards a fifty and Woakes out for 53 in potential England players stakes

Would be surprised if Hales isn't given a go against WI - his credentials are much higher than Malan's if we're picking white ball specialists (seeing as Hales is one of the best one day players in the world)

[GSC]

Hameeb now up to 41*

Kinda hoping for an innings where he bats through and everyone else overtakes him

[Gooseberry]

Or where he gets to 90 then goes full on Hales and still carries his bat

[JDizzle]

Hales has a double hundred, Hameed edges towards a fifty and Woakes out for 53 in potential England players stakes

Would be surprised if Hales isn't given a go against WI - his credentials are much higher than Malan's if we're picking white ball specialists (seeing as Hales is one of the best one day players in the world)

Joe Clarke 77 vs Sussex (featuring Jordan, Archer and Wiese). Missed a trick not converting to thee figures though.

Hales at 5 in Tests would be interesting experiment though...

[GSC]

Funs over as Hales is out for 218.

Not a bad way to get the selectors attention. Malan might be a nervy man between now and the first WI game

[alfie]

I was wondering about Joe Clarke ...had heard good things about him...anyone seen enough of him to comment ?

Bayliss of course sees none of them

Meanwhile Jimmy gets Faf and the end appears nigh...

[James100]

And Jimmy's average falls below 28. Any bets on its final position when he calls it a day?

[king_carlos]

Carlos he always bats like that.

How he bats has rarely changed - except for the experiment of him opening where he adjusted his stance to help play the short ball.

Where he bats has regularly been chopped and changed. I think he is best at 8 where he can concentrate more on his offbreaks.

[eirebilly]

What a shame this is not a 5 test series, Ali really would have looked odds on to have a 30 wicket 300 run series if this went to a 5th test.

I think only Kallis and Warne have achieved this before?

[alfie]

Eight out now as an excellent catch by Westley sees Rabada depart...

Anderson three now : can he get the elusive five at his home ground ?

[alfie]

Eight out now as an excellent catch by Westley sees Rabada depart...

Anderson three now : can he get the elusive five at his home ground ?

Well no

Moeen gets Morkel for a duck...might be him with a five...

All over very soon now.

[eirebilly]

All over, Ali with 5. That's 25 for the series from him. What a series, 3-1

[alfie]

Five for Moeen

The end came in a rush...Amla and du Plessis resisted : no one else.

Well deserved England 3-1

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Moeen is the second England player ever to score 250 runs & take 25 wickets in a Test series: Botham v Aus in 1981 & 1985 the other. #EngvSA

[eirebilly]

Would have been on a hatrick as well.

[eirebilly]

Moeen is the second England player ever to score 250 runs & take 25 wickets in a Test series: Botham v Aus in 1981 & 1985 the other. #EngvSA

G'wan Olly, tell me who has ever got 30 wickets and 300 runs in a series, just for the fecks

Another test and I am sure Ali would have.

[alfie]

Amazing match - and series for Moeen-alithoran ...

I'm sure if I look back through a lot of Internet stuff I will see calls for him to be replaced by Rashid before this series ...

Not on this esteemed site , of course

[eirebilly]

Great start to the captaincy from Root as well it must be said. I thought that he managed the team very well and made some very good calls during this series, especially bowling changes.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Imagine how badly we'd have beaten SA if we had a coach who had a clue about test cricket...

[eirebilly]

I know that Ali got his 5 for but for me, the turning point in this match was Bairstow's innings in the first innings. He really took the game away from SA. Just for that I would give Bairstow the MoTM.

[Gooseberry]

Carlos ...i was responding your comment about Hameed not Moeen.
Hameed always bats like his wicket matters and you dont need runs to win a game. Even Boycott thinks hes a bit pedestrian.

[king_carlos]

Carlos ...i was responding your comment about Hameed not Moeen.
Hameed always bats like his wicket matters and you dont need runs to win a game. Even Boycott thinks hes a bit pedestrian.

When his strike rate was around 20 it was pedestrian even for Hameed. As he got in it crept up to 35.

He went slowly, 77 from 219 balls, but the young lad is still there at close. In that time 2 very good players in Chanderpaul and Vilas departed, as did three talented English batsman in Davies, Livingstone and Buttler. Only one of the 5 made more than him as well.

Hopefully he kicks on in the morning.

[GSC]

Think England should leave Hameeb until after the ashes.

Let him build form.

[GSC]

Anyway a good series win over a game SA side. Missed Steyn and AB no doubt but England played well overall.

[compelling and rich]

always liked a opener who can see off the dangers of the new ball. if a opener makes 32 off 150 balls, then he's done more for the team than someone who biffs a 50 off 32 balls.

thought cook played some very important innings doing this, in this series. he might have been outshined and outscored in some innings but with others being walking wickets around him he did the donkey work so the likes of bairsow, stokes and ali had easier batting condition's

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

always liked a opener who can see off the dangers of the new ball. if a opener makes 32 off 150 balls, then he's done more for the team than someone who biffs a 50 off 32 balls.

though cook played some very important innings doing this, in this series. he might have been outshined and outscored in some innings but with others being walking wickets around him he did the donkey work so the likes of bairsow, stokes and ali had easier batting condition's

You're bang on about Cook - his 88 on that tough first day at the Oval was the series defining knock. If he'd have gone cheaply that game could've gone very differently

[LivinginItaly]

I agree about the openers job being to see off the new ball. However, my one fear with Hameed would be that an opening partnership with cook could be very slow scoring thus creating lots of pressure on them to up the tempo. I think cook would ideally be paired with a more aggressive opener....the problem is we don't seem to be able to find one. I would actually be tempted to bring Hameed in for the West Indies series....the attack won't be much better than what he would be facing in county cricket.

[Gooseberry]

Someone who can average over 25 would be a good start ...anything after that is a bonus right now.

[LionsV2]

I agree about the openers job being to see off the new ball. However, my one fear with Hameed would be that an opening partnership with cook could be very slow scoring thus creating lots of pressure on them to up the tempo. I think cook would ideally be paired with a more aggressive opener....the problem is we don't seem to be able to find one.  I would actually be tempted to bring Hameed in for the West Indies series....the attack won't be much better than what he would be facing in county cricket.

That only becomes a problem when the number three is also a conservative player, going back to the last tour to the West Indies we had Cook, Trott and Ballance which was incredibly turgid and invariably resulted in us being 30-2 or similar.

[Gooseberry]

Its the old you cant win unless youre winning thing again ... England have been critisized in this series for batting too agressively and too slowly. Bearing in mind 3 of the top 5 spots are highly questionable right now we really need to stop worrying about what type or style of player they are and concentrate on finsing at least 2 more who are capable of doing anything ever.
There was a lot of optimism with both Jennings and Hameed making a decent fist of it over the winter (ignore Ballance and Duckett and the stupid Buttler at 7 experiment) but thats dried up pretty quickly.

This grinder mill of players has to stop or they will never go form being a dangerous team to a good one.

[KP_fan]

It was a tame end to what was expected to be more competitive than the other test series going on between Ind and SL

--SA lower middle order just doesn't fight......and that's where Eng's No.6 thru 10 with the bat win the game for them.

what was the newcomer DeBruyn's role for example...can't bat and didn't bowl
They need to gel better as a team and fight harder and find a balanced squad of 15.....
there are too many leaders in the team....DeVilliers ( absent here due to fitness but a regular), Amla, Faf and even Elgar has captained...and maybe some egos

They need to have a proper allrounder in case Philnader is not fit....i.e a balanced plan B in case their starting preferred 11 are not all fit

Where is JP Duminy?

--England are a good side and very tough to beat at home now that they have decided to spice up the pitches and make them "English" seam supportive

Unlike last few seasons where they had 500ish pitches where even Pak drew a series

Good start for Root but his real tests will come not on these template seam pitches....but when he plays in subcontinent and in the Ashes series especially in Australia.

--Should Root lose form and needs to be replaced...Moeen with his calm , thinking approach and good temperament is a captaincy material in my view...better suited than Stokes

btw its on surface a bit surprising Moeen doesn't pick wickets on helpful sub continent pitches but does better in Eng

The argument cannot be that Indians play him better because he did pick a lot of wickets against Ind when they last toured Eng.

I think..it's to do with seam bowlers having set up pressure on opposition to release which the opposition batsmen either take Moeen easy or go after him.

That Said he bowls well and intelligently...and his style is not to give a rip and spin it big.
But he flights and puts it there.....and the bounce in the pitch( especially in this series) makes it harder for batsman to handle him especially if they have relaxed or are going after Moeen.

In Ind the bounce is low...and you need ripp/ revs on the ball to make it spin and later to get it to bounce of the rough when the pitch has deteriorated...and that's where Moeen's natural style didn't make him very suited for Indian pitches

[alfie]

True Hameed seems a natural cautious accumulator ; but he also showed in India that he can accelerate when the situation calls for it . Who knows how he will develop as and if he settles into the team.
I well recall the debut of Marcus Trescothick back in 2000. He seemed quite the slowcoach - a strike rate that rarely went much past 35 in his first couple of series ...changed up a bit later

Not suggesting Hameed will become a dasher : but he may not be a complete tortoise either. Cook isn't really as stodgy as he is often portrayed either , except when the team situation calls for it , so I'm not horrified at the prospect of the two of them batting together.
The point about a dour number three is not unreasonable (though I'd love to have the Trott of 2011 available now !) so how Westley goes from here is important...he looks as if he will need to add a bit more to his off side game to avoid being tied down by tactical bowling.

Ultimately I'm with Goose on this : just need batsmen who can actually make runs , never mind the aesthetics . Not as if there is any shortage of aggression down the order...

[LivinginItaly]

i agree totally Alfie. But you know that when we are 60 without loss at lunch on the first morning of a test many "experts" on here will be complaining about the run rate. I personally would love a reliable, steady at times slow scoring opening partnership to build a foundation for our middle and lower order aggressive players to take advantage of.

[VTR]

I actually take exception to you deeming many of the posters here "experts" - implying they haven't got a clue. The core of posters on here are a knowledgeable and rational bunch. I think you mean "experts" on TMS and Cricinfo comments

[LivinginItaly]

I actually take exception to you deeming many of the posters here "experts" - implying they haven't got a clue. The core of posters on here are a knowledgeable and rational bunch. I think you mean "experts" on TMS and Cricinfo comments

Apologies VTR I didn't mean to imply the posters on here aren't a knowledgeable bunch. But even on here occasionally people have been known to complain about scoring rates in a particularly attritional phase of play. But you are right the comments here are positively genius in comparison with many on tms and the BBC sports website. incidentally I would include myself in the "experts" category having never played first class or international cricket

[guildfordbat]

always liked a opener who can see off the dangers of the new ball. if a opener makes 32 off 150 balls, then he's done more for the team than someone who biffs a 50 off 32 balls.

though cook played some very important innings doing this, in this series. he might have been outshined and outscored in some innings but with others being walking wickets around him he did the donkey work so the likes of bairsow, stokes and ali had easier batting condition's

You're bang on about Cook - his 88 on that tough first day at the Oval was the series defining knock. If he'd have gone cheaply that game could've gone very differently

Hi folks - I was away for the whole of the Oval Test and only saw the end of the last one at Manchester. Could I just take you back to the Oval - the reports and posts make clear it was ''tough'' for batting. I'm in no position to disagree and certainly don't.

However, when I first heard that we had scored 350 odd all out, my immediate reaction was that it was a below par score. That thinking was based on seeing several of Surrey's matches there this season where the wickets have been too ''batsman friendly'' and the outfield fast. What changed that and made batting a lot more difficult? Overhead conditions? A track more favourable to bowling? Good bowling? A combination?

Genuinely grateful for the views of experts and non-experts alike.

[GSC]

Overhead conditions and the bowling of SA was generally top notch this series.

[Sponsored content]