England vs South Africa - test series thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

In the fast paced nature of international cricket, we are just over a week away from the first of four test matches between SA and England - should be a good one.

South Africa have named their squad...missing some big names in Steyn, ABDV - also no Dane Piedt, Stephen Cook either.

South Africa squad: Faf du Plessis (captain), Hashim Amla, Temba Bavuma, Theunis de Bruyn, Quinton de Kock, JP Duminy, Dean Elgar, Heino Kuhn, Keshav Maharaj, Aiden Markram, Morne Morkel, Chris Morris, Duanne Olivier, Andile Phehlukwayo, Vernon Philander, Kagiso Rabada.

Still a very strong team - especially in the seam bowling ranks. Although with Faf missing the first test, the batting is reliant on Amla and De Kock I feel

England have a few injury concerns - particularly Stuart Broad - any thoughts on the SA squad, and potential England one?

[Gooseberry]

Think we covered the options for England in the openers thread.
Jennings and the other chap have done all they can to press a case for inclussion. Young Habeed is really struggling this season and surely wont get recalled. 

Any news on Woakes' availability? With Broad out as well that starts to leave them looking light so Overtons chances increase. Plunkett is the most natural replacement though.

Theres still a lot of choices for England in how they line up, and where people go in the batting order. Do they play 2 spinners, do they trust trust Moeen to bowl on his own and value his batting over Rashids threat? Would they continue with 6 bowlers or go for an extra middle order bat? 

Does someone like Ballance get another look in, this time hidden down the order?

Does Bairstow stay up the order and keep the gloves? Is Stokes convincing anyone hes a genuine test 6?

Does Root stay at 3? 


Its a pity SA are selling this series short and sending the B team. They dont play that much test cricket as it is. The limited overs game between the two have been a bit of  a damp squib and this may be no different.
England certainly should be expecting to win regardless of any bowling injuries and open questions regarding the top 3

[Hammersmith harrier]

I think Lancashire have mismanaged Hameed by playing him in the limited overs game, he should have been left to concentrate on playing his natural game rather than trying to adapt.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Jake Ball taken off injured for Notts today - seemingly a groin injury. With Broad a potential injury doubt, Anderson already having picked up a knock and Woakes seemingly missing for another few weeks...the seam bowling cupboard is looking a little bare.

Finn? Plunkett? Curran? Overton? You'd imagine one might get a call into the squad...

[Gooseberry]

Has Anderson been injured again? He took a load of wickets against Hampshire a week or so ago didnt he?

He does seem extremely fragile now though, and I do wonder if this will be his last test series. I guess he'd want to hang on for the Ashes tour but England should be asking themselves if he is worth the risk and able to prosper on those pitches. Beyond that I really cant see him hanging on any longer. 

Overtons out of the Lions squad as well with a back twinge so this is getting pretty serious. He should be available for the tests but its still not great, instead Plunkett who was a sure fire test starter will play that and no doubt get nobbled (sods law rather than dirty saffers)/

Regardless with Woakes, Wood, Ball and Broad missing there has to be chances given elsewhere for the wider squad of seamers. And an excellent chance for them to press their cases for that Ashes tour.  Plunkett in particular with his pace. If we are missing 4 or 5 for the first test then Finn probably does come back into contention yet again (he is still on a contract and listed as an official test squad player) ...sigh. After that yep it has to be Overtons, Currans and anyone else whos willing to turn up. 

Another facet of the injuries is how this affects the make up of the team. They could be missing 7 seamers ...does this mean using Stokes as a front line rather than impact/change bowler? If its a borderline call on putting Rashid in do they go for him over the 11th choice seamer? If its a stable of inexperienced / back up seamers do they go for 6 bowlers to allow more rotation and cover for one having a bad day?

Lots of choices for England, but I do hope Anderson is fit regardles of the need to be developing the next batch of senior seamers.

[alfie]

Nothing wrong with Wood , is there ? Hadn't heard he has any current injury worries...
Anderson has bowled 27 overs in this match : BBC mentioned him "stretching (his groin ?)" in the last session but that's hardly evidence he is injured : I stretch a lot in the field after bowling especially when coming back from injuries - just as a precaution. I do agree Jimmy seems a bit more fragile these days but am hoping he will be OK for next week.
New cap among the pace men ? Possibly ...might even be a Curran

[James100]

Hard to keep track of injuries - among the main guys, is it Anderson & Wood fit, Woakes definitely not fit and Broad & Ball maybes?

If all three of those are not available, I'd guess Finn or TRJ gets the third seam-bowling spot and the other comes into the squad. In recent times, England have been good about laying out a clear pecking order and then sticking to it rather than throwing any curve balls.

[alfie]

You may have a point there , James. They do seem to value continuity.
On the other hand Finn has been a bit out of favor recently - getting in squads but not picked in matches - and isn't exactly tearing up the county circuit. And TRJ has just had the one ODI appearance.

Would they resurrect Plunkett's Test career ? He has certainly bowled impressively in the limited overs stuff but not sure that is enough...

[Corporalhumblebucket]

Between them TRJ and Finn bowled 45 wicketless overs in Essex's first innings in the current match - so they are running into some good form - at least when it comes to getting through the overs.

[guildfordbat]

Being reported that Ball is out of Saturday RL 50 final and the first Test.

[Gooseberry]

Well that's one way of avoiding losing, presumably its declared a tie if theres no ball?

[Gooseberry]

Only 20 overs in the Lions game yesterday so hard to read much into it. Mixed forecast for today as well. I guess form Englands perspective is good that SA are being robbed of a proper warm up and will go into the test series with barely any long form cricket under their belts. 
In terms of helping to devleop the next generation of England players and give the selectord a last nod on who could/should get a place in the senior side its not very helpfull though. Of this side Jennings and Plunkett (pending injuries) Id expect to line up for the seniors, and both Ballance and Robson have a chance to press a case. The others youd think are too far down the pecking order short of a full on inujury crisis. 

Jamie Overtons chances look limited after his back flared up again. Apparently its not too serious at this point but requires management to reduce the risk of another fracture...hard to see him getting a test call on that basis despite taking 5 in the last Lions game.

Theres a chance in the RLC final for Curran and Stoneman to make a final statement and press their cases too.

[Gooseberry]

Not great for the lions so far ...only 3 wickets on the day and two retired outs so far. An ominous return to form for Amla.
The lad Crane looks to have suffered and been hit out if the attack, although a young spinner suggering against genuine test bats on a day 2 pitch is no great shock.
Jennings has showed he has a bit if useful part tine bowling to add to the good runs he made in the A game, looks to be full of confidence st the minute and surely will play the tests.
Should be a full day with the bat for the likes of balance to make a point.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Seems Ballance will be recalled with the surprise of Dawson in the squad.

Roland Jones to debut

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The inclusion of Ballance seems to have annoyed people for some reason - if a guy who is literally averaging 100 this season can't get a call up what even is the point of county cricket?

Likely XI to be

Cook, Jennings, Ballance, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Ali, Roland Jones, Wood, Broad, Anderson

I suppose with Stokes's ongoing knee niggle having the 4 frontline seamers is needed - Roland Jones is no mug with the willow

[guildfordbat]

The inclusion of Ballance seems to have annoyed people for some reason - if a guy who is literally averaging 100 this season can't get a call up what even is the point of county cricket?

Likely XI to be

Cook, Jennings, Ballance, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Ali, Roland Jones, Wood, Broad, Anderson

I suppose with Stokes's ongoing knee niggle having the 4 frontline seamers is needed - Roland Jones is no mug with the willow

Olly's Likely XI above seems to be the team we'll go with, Dawson being twelfth man. Looks a seam bowler heavy for me. I appreciate there have been injury concerns but decisions as to fitness to play need to be made before and not during a Test.

[jimbohammers]

Annoyed that Dawson is in the squad. Will be carrying drinks + misses another game for Hampshire

[guildfordbat]

Annoyed that Dawson is in the squad. Will be carrying drinks + misses another game for Hampshire

Yeah, it's almost like it's a way of acknowledging Dawson's recent good form but just ends up penalising the player and his county.

[alfie]

Too many bowlers for mine ...does this mean Stokes is basically playing as a batsman ? If that is indeed the XI I'd expect Moeen to move up to five as I think that is too high for the keeper ; and while I agree Ballance has just about earned another shot I really don't fancy him at three against Rabada & co.
Granted TRJ looked handy with the bat in the ODI but number eight in his first Test ? Hope the top order does the job...

[guildfordbat]

Too many bowlers for mine ...does this mean Stokes is basically playing as a batsman ?   If that is indeed the XI I'd expect Moeen to move up to five as I think that is too high for the keeper ; and while I agree Ballance has just about earned another shot I really don't fancy him at three against Rabada & co.
Granted TRJ looked handy with the bat in the ODI but number eight in his first Test ?  Hope the top order does the job...

Can't argue with that. Ties in with my post above raising concerns as to the extra seam bowler and/or fitness. Meanwhile, Alfie, have you seen the new Line of Duty yet?

[alfie]

Hi guildford

At the risk of usurping the TV section ...I saw episode one on Wednesday. As you said the last scene was an eye opener

Will be fascinated to see where they go from here (can't help seeing that forensics chap as the vampire cop from Being Human so was not inclined to trust him ...

[Gooseberry]

The inclussion of Dawson does suggest they have given up on the idea of spin as anything other than a part time way of breaking up some overs, and hes there as cover incase of a late injury to Moeen.
I guess theres a leftfield chance he will play and Moeen get put up the order again but that really would be an odd looking side...neither Moeen nor Stokes are 100% convincing as top 6 bats.

Im surprised not to see Plunkett in the absence of Woakes although he didnt do much with the Lions. TRJ has flown a bit under the radar really and hasnt exactly set the county scene on fire ...nor has he played in the recent lions games. Its not like he even offers something different to the legion of medium fastish almost tall right arm seamers england have.
It seems hes picked as much on last years form and potential as anything else.
Im perhaps slighlty biased against anyone who can't spell their own name but I do find him (and Dawson) uninspiring choices.

Ballance ....how many chances? Hes consistently scored big runs in the CC and failed in tests. Fakr enough they gave him a chance in the Lions and he deleivered ( to an extent) but then so did Stoneman who has also had an excellent season but doesnt have the baggage Ballance brings.

Still hes obviously a fine player and may well deliver, it will be interesting to see if they stick him at 4 or if Root decides to hide himself down the order instead. With the added weight of capatincy batting 3 is an ask.
Then where do Moeen and Bairstow bat? I get the idea that the keeper should concentrate on keeping and be hidden down, but Bairstow is the third best batsman they have ...and picked on his batting over his keeping. For me he has to be at 5.

The top order does look a bit flat and unpredictable, and unusually for England there is a tail.
The potential seam bowling injury crisis hasnt hit as hard as feared from all the rumours but Im less convinced of Broad and Anderson than in previous summers, that there will be 6 bowlers and 2 part timers (im being generous to dawson and moeen) signals England are continuing their policy of minimal overs to protect players over a series. Just as well with Anderson Broad and Wood in the side, and an unreliable expensive lead spinner.
Overall I just dont see much excitement in Englands bowling unit, although we know Broad Wood Stoke and of course Anderson are each capable of delivering match winning performances.

Meanwhile Phillander has been passed fit and off the back of a good display against the Lions SA look ominous. Even Amla managed to score runs.

Should be a hard fought series if SA turn up and stay switched on.

[Gooseberry]

Fafs missing the first test so Elgar Captains. Good turn around for a guy who must have been on the edge of getting dropped at the end of last year.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I think England's XI line up is with a view to the Ashes - I'd have thought for Australia ideally they would like 6-11 to be this...

Stokes, Moeen, Woakes, Wood, Broad, Anderson.

So TRJ is the Woakes replacement for this test. I can't see them going in with an attack of Broad, Anderson, Stokes, Woakes and Moeen personally.

Really hope Ballance can succeed and doesn't go down as one of these county not country level players. And I mean he was called up for the Pakistan series when he didn't deserve to be...that's not really his fault. This time he's earned his call up rightfully and is in form

[Gooseberry]

Id agree Olly.

My only issue is how TRJ came to be first replacement. IMO hes not as good a bowler or bat as Plunkett, who also offers a bit of extra pace to match what they have lost from Woakes. If they were looking to blood a new player then surely one of the younger ones was a better bet. TRJ is 29, so not exactly an eye to the future whilst lacking even Plunketts level of experience

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Id agree Olly.

My only issue is how TRJ came to be first replacement. IMO hes not as good a bowler or bat as Plunkett, who also offers a bit of extra pace to match what they have lost from Woakes. If they were looking to blood a new player then surely one of the younger ones was a better bet. TRJ is 29, so not exactly an eye to the future whilst lacking even Plunketts level of experience

I am too a bit surprised Plunkett hasn't had more of a look in in the test squad - iirc he was only dropped in 2014 because he got injured...so never technically lost his spot. Maybe they've gone TRJ because of his experience of bowling at Lords? Either way hopefully Woakes will return soonish...he's suddenly become one of England's most important players across all three formats over the past year or so

[Gooseberry]

Possible yeah, a temporary horses for courses pick. As well as not ever having been dropped as such Plunkletts was also isted as a member of the test team squad on the ECB website...till yesterday.

Am I missing something on TRJ? Is he taller than I think? I had the impression of him being a fairly typical county mid to high 80's bowler, a touch slower than the likes of Woakes and Plunkett.

[king_carlos]

Toby Roland-Jones is a bowler I have always had conflicting opinions on. On the one hand his action has always looked suspect to my admittedly not expert eye. His tendency to fall over his leading leg in his delivery stride has always seemed very pronounced to me.

On the other hand there are many coaches with far more knowledge than I'll ever have who praise his action. Perhaps it could be the angle which TV cameras give us of bowlers coming in but it has always seemed a weak delivery stride.

For a strong, tall seamer his pace has never quite reached the levels you'd have hoped. This more than anything makes me instinctively think he will struggle at test level.

His county record is excellent so he has certainly earnt the opportunity to prove himself either way should the chance come.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Seems they are going to go with Roland Jones as 12th man and Dawson will play and bat at 8

[Gooseberry]

I can kind of get it from the perspective of wanting a bowler in who can keep it tight and doesnt leak easy runs like Moeen does. But picking both of them? Is it likely to be a spinners at both ends type pitch (bearing in mind Roots pretty handy for an occassional)? OK there still 4 seamers so they arent going to get too overworked but I wouldve thought there'd be a desire to protect all the crocks and use Stokes sparingly as hes so central to everything the team does now.
I guess the other point is he does offer a differnet angle, and maybe they have a theory about certain players and left armers (although KP doesnt play for SA) He does give the batting more depth than TRJ and replace Woakes in that regard.
For me if Moeens playing its because hes going to get bowled a fair amount, hes no way one of the top 5 or 6 bats in the country. And Dawson even more so.

Real left fielder there.

[msp83]

Dawson as the 2nd spinner in a home test? What on earty is going on? The guy isn't a bad lower order bat, but sorry, he's not a spinner, a bit of a semi decent slow bowler, but not near test class. If they need to go in with 2 spinners, it has to be Ali and Rashid.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

I fail to see the obsession with these part time cricketers getting gifted Test caps. Samit Patel was one a few years ago and now it's Liam Dawson. It's embarrassing for someone like Adil Rashid, a genuine spinner, gets axed for someone like Dawson

[Gooseberry]

Good write up of what has now been announced here:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-south-africa-2017/content/story/1108434.html

Dawson himself described it as "a bit unexpected".

Theres no question his inclussion is down to offering the control that Moeen and Rashid cant. 

Also reiterates the point that theyve left Stoneman, the specialist 3, out for a guy who has repeatedly failed there. And how odd this is considering they played Ballance at 4 in the Lions, if they had an eye on Roots close friend for 3 why not play him there?

[JDizzle]

There is no grounds to pick Adil Rashid as a second spinner in England in 99% of occasions IMO. He isn't good enough to bat 8 and he will be too expensive with the ball. Dawson is a better bat and can probably keep it tighter in the low amount of overs he will be expected to bowl. And if you picked TRJ, you have a massive tail and 5 right arm seamers!

I do wonder whether they would have gone with Dawson (rather than another batsman) if they didn't have injury concerns surrounding Anderson and Broad, and Wood being a perennial sicknote though.

Ballance picks makes sense to me. Stoneman is in great form, but Ballance is in unreal form. If he can't succeed this time, in the form he is in, he will be discarded for a long, long time - if not permanently.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Surely it'd have been better to pick another batsman and have Root bowl a few overs if needed rather than pick Dawson? Seems a bit of a half measure to me.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

There is no grounds to pick Adil Rashid as a second spinner in England in 99% of occasions IMO. He isn't good enough to bat 8 and he will be too expensive with the ball. Dawson is a better bat and can probably keep it tighter in the low amount of overs he will be expected to bowl. And if you picked TRJ, you have a massive tail and 5 right arm seamers!

I do wonder whether they would have gone with Dawson (rather than another batsman) if they didn't have injury concerns surrounding Anderson and Broad, and Wood being a perennial sicknote though.

Ballance picks makes sense to me. Stoneman is in great form, but Ballance is in unreal form. If he can't succeed this time, in the form he is in, he will be discarded for a long, long time - if not permanently.

Dilly has more f/c hundreds than Dawson and a better batting average. Rashid frequently bats at 6 for Yorkshire so he can't be that bad

[Gooseberry]

I have my concerns about Moeen as a player not cutting it as a bowler or a top 6, Dawsons not as good bat and no better a bowler. But he does bring variety and control to the attack, which is clearly what hes been picked for. his selection really does say that Root just doenst back Moeens bowling, and goes against their agressive "balls out" attacking mentality where leaking runs didnt matter if youre taking wickets.
I had hoped theyd learnt their lesson about picking non cricketers from the winter though. They retired Ansari and embaressed Batty through this. 
they could have picked Stoneman, put Ballance at 5 where he has a chance to shine in comfort, took the pressure of Bairstow at 6, Stokes at 7 where he shoudl be and had an attacking and vaguely capable spinner in Rashid at 8. A stonger batting line up and support bowling coming from Jennings (FC average and economy rate on a par with Dawsons) and Root.
If they were thinking this why didnt Dawson play the Lions notatest? Instead he seems to have been picked off the back of his performances in limited overs Lions games which werent good enough to get him in that side. 

But lets see. He might turn out to be the next Graham Swann.

[alfie]

Batting first so the -perhaps rather thin ? - top order will be tested by South Africa's handy pace attack today.

Should have enough bowlers when it's their turn - rather more than I'd have thought necessary in fact. Surprised they've continued going for quantity over quality after seeing how well that didn't work in India ... Although at least no one individual had to bowl too many overs as they watched India rack up 700 or so

Not over confident of Ballance at three so hope the openers get a start. Like Goose , I'd have preferred him at five.

Proper cricket back at last

[alfie]

Not the start England wanted.

Cook who's been in fine form out sparring at one he might easily have left...I think he intended to push it through cover- point but it lifted more than he expected ; good bowling but disappointing from the ex-skipper.
Then Jennings fails to review a shocking lbw call ...I screamed "pitched outside leg" at the TV but they weren't listening
Wasn't even hitting the stumps ...

20/2 ...nice test for the new captain...

[Gooseberry]

garyu Ballance repaying Roots faith in him with a game saving 20

Root may as well have batted 3.

[guildfordbat]

Oh, there's a game at Lord's as well?

Looking forward to Goose's review of Ballance's morning. Along the lines, I guess, of - doesn't hang in to make a score but lasts long enough to talk Jennings out of reviewing a shocker!

EDIT and PS: hadn't seen Goose's last post when I submitted the above.

PPS:  in line with my usual prejudice, Botham looks an absolute mess to dovetail perfectly with his analysis.

[Gooseberry]

We really need to stop playing tests at Lords :/

80/4

[KP_fan]

I am not watching...juts saw the scorecard...Eng look in trouble
but their spine starts from the middle order...

Why is Hameed not playing?
How it this guy Maharaj....good reviews of him and a pretty good record for a spinner who has not played in sub continent yet

[Gooseberry]

I am not watching...juts saw the scorecard...Eng look in trouble
but their spine starts from the middle order...

Why is Hameed not playing?
How it this guy Maharaj....good reviews of him and a pretty good record for a spinner who has not played in sub continent yet

Hammeds been in awful form. Whether its the hand injury or being asked to develop his batting to play limited over games for his county or a bit of both hes really been woeful. Jennings has made good runs for the Lions and Ballance is avergaing 100 in county cricket this season. Hameeds dropped back to 4th choice at best as an opener (although after this start ....) based solely on what he did over the winter. Theres hope/an assumption he will be back and times very much on his side, but it wont be this summer.

You cant really argue with Maharaj's stats can you. He puts Dawson to shame. Got taken apart in one of the ODIs but has consistently taken wickets.

[alfie]

Rubbish third umpiring there ...clear no ball on that review . But I guess the morally correct result was achieved as now SA lose a review for a poor call

Can't really blame them for trying to get Root , I guess but that always seemed to be off the helmet.

[Gooseberry]

Its a good psoitive effort by Root and Stokes and exactly the sort of thing the were getting slated for doing badly in India. 135/4 is far from goods but its a heckins of a lot better a state of affairs than a couple of hours ago.


Pointless fact ... Stokes' first run in this game was his first one in first class cricket this year. This is already his highest long form score since November

[alfie]

Root and Stokes saved England here against NZ a couple of years back...

That was a rather more spectacular counterattack , as I recall. But this effort will do nicely

SA over rate is appalling .

[alfie]

Blimey ! Morkel bowls Stokes ...on a no ball of which Pakistan would be proud...

No balls and dropped catches have cost SA a total domination today.

England not out of the woods but looking better than at lunch. Hope they can keep it going .

[Gooseberry]

Just had a quick look at de Bruyn whos come on for an over ...8 first class wickets to his name. Half of those have come on during the warm ups to this game!
It looks like SA will be relying on him to bowl a significant number of overs with only 4 proper bowlers and the pitch not offering much for the spinners. 

It makes it even more frustrating that Englands top order blew away so softly knowing that SA lack depth in their bowling and the likes of Rababda will struggle to be as effective once worn down. 

The slow over rate could well be partly deliberate to preserve their seam attacks energy.

[Mat]

Another important contribution from Moeen when England were in a spot of bother, genuine test-class batsman at number 7(too low if you ask me) is very useful indeed.

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