Benn, Froch and Eubank

First topic message reminder :

It's been brought up so I'll ask it

Who had the better cv?

The styles to beat him based on what exactly? His inability to take a punch as he got old and slowed down?

It's a joke because you simply don't like Jones and get blinded by your disliked for him, for instance his win over Hopkins (counterpuncher) is better than any win Hagler has at the weight.

I'm interested to see who people think would win between RJJ and Andre Ward at SMW? RJJ starting as slight favourite?

LionsV2 wrote:The styles to beat him based on what exactly? His inability to take a punch as he got old and slowed down?

It's a joke because you simply don't like Jones and get blinded by your disliked for him, for instance his win over Hopkins (counterpuncher) is better than any win Hagler has at the weight.

Hopkins counterpuncher do me a favour defensive spoiler more like

Trinidad, Pascal and Pavlik will attest to his counter punching ability.

Hand speed though come on he's slow as molasses

Bernard Hopkins as a Middleweight had slow handspeed?

Never said it's slow but it ain't quick enough to catch Roy like Robinson or Gerald or Ketchel could and put his lights right out

Who are you talking about now?

Go away if you can't comprehend who do think I mean

Herman Jaeger wrote:Never said it's slow but it ain't quick enough to catch Roy like Robinson or Gerald or Ketchel could and put his lights right out

You really think someone who clowned about with P4P Toney is getting knocked out by someone from the 1900s? Who was 5 7 and probably a stone lighter.

Scottrf wrote:

Herman Jaeger wrote:Never said it's slow but it ain't quick enough to catch Roy like Robinson or Gerald or Ketchel could and put his lights right out

You really think someone who clowned about with P4P Toney is getting knocked out by someone from the 1900s? Who was 5 7 and probably a stone lighter.

Ketchel had demonic power look him up some time. How's he going to weigh a stone lighter if it's at 160? Don't know what you're talking about yet again. Great Jones was born eighty years later so he wins its automatic wtf

Don't see what Toney's got to do with it Jones much stronger at 68

Herman Jaeger wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Herman Jaeger wrote:Never said it's slow but it ain't quick enough to catch Roy like Robinson or Gerald or Ketchel could and put his lights right out

You really think someone who clowned about with P4P Toney is getting knocked out by someone from the 1900s? Who was 5 7 and probably a stone lighter.

Ketchel had demonic power look him up some time. How's he going to weigh a stone lighter if it's at 160? Don't know what you're talking about yet again. Great Jones was born eighty years later so he wins its automatic wtf

Don't see what Toney's got to do with it Jones much stronger at 68

I don't know what I'm talking about yet you've never heard of same day weigh ins?

I haven't heard of same day weigh ins ok

Charley Burley would be way too skillfull for Jones at 160. Jones' skill set gets overrated for me

You've seen Burley box then?

Jones would toy with Ketchel, the difference in skill level is huge.

LionsV2 wrote:You've seen Burley box then?

Jones would toy with Ketchel, the difference in skill level is huge.

Sure there's one surviving film of Burley in action do you remember on the old 606 when we were looking at it? Burley way more skilful than Jones

Jones is more skilful than Ketchel I don't think there's anything revelatory in that statement but Ketchel didn't have a glass jaw either

You mean the five minute video that reused about 2 minutes of actual footage, wow I could post a video of the 6th round of Jones fighting Pazienza for all it's relevancy in isolation.

I saw what I saw we're just going to have to agree to disagree Jones relied on speed reflex and athleticism Burley way more skilful

Herman Jaeger wrote:I saw what I saw we're just going to have to agree to disagree Jones relied on speed reflex and athleticism Burley way more skilful

Do you even know who Burley was fighting in that video?

Oakland Billy Smith who outweighed him by almost twelve pounds. There's more of the fight than you suggest:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gp9lkBqm6bQ

Manny Steward on McLellan:

'Make no mistake about it, Gerald would have beaten Roy again. I don't think so, I know so! He had the speed, he was tall and physical, he had the chin, and Roy knows full well what an awesome puncher he was- not just in power but in timing. He had so much going for him, if he'd of stayed with me he would of put Roy out within six minutes of boxing. Gerald could have been the best of the 1990's, and I think he would of been had he stayed at the Kronk'

Herman Jaeger wrote:There's just a little of the what if with Calzaghe and Jones. Myth based on supposition rather than fact a nagging suspicion they're not quite as good as their fans would have you believe

With your Andre Wards and your Carl Frochs there are no what ifs

Both took on everything and found their level Ward all time Froch British that's why it's still up for debate whether Calzaghe is all time is there enough quality opposition in his pomp?

You see I have a problem with the "what if" analogy when it comes to Calzaghe despite it being a fair point. I can't help think that Joe falls the wrong side of the benefit of doubt when regular fans assess his standing. Rocky Marciano for example is placed usually very highly on all time lists but a fog of mystery remains on how good he actually was given his biggest wins tended to be against faded opposition. I take the view,(maybe biasedly) that Calzaghe is an All Time Great (just!), longevity, unbeaten, ticks a few boxes for world class opponents vanquished. I think most lists have him in the lower reaches of the top 100 which is where I would put him too.

Mochyn du wrote:

Herman Jaeger wrote:There's just a little of the what if with Calzaghe and Jones. Myth based on supposition rather than fact a nagging suspicion they're not quite as good as their fans would have you believe

With your Andre Wards and your Carl Frochs there are no what ifs

Both took on everything and found their level Ward all time Froch British that's why it's still up for debate whether Calzaghe is all time is there enough quality opposition in his pomp?

You see I have a problem with the "what if" analogy when it comes to Calzaghe despite it being a fair point.  I can't help think that Joe falls the wrong side of the benefit of doubt when regular fans assess his standing.  Rocky Marciano for example is placed usually very highly on all time lists but a fog of mystery remains on how good he actually was given his biggest wins tended to be against faded opposition.  I take the view,(maybe biasedly) that Calzaghe is an All Time Great (just!), longevity, unbeaten, ticks a few boxes for world class opponents vanquished.  I think most lists have him in the lower reaches of the top 100 which is where I would put him too.

Lower reaches, call yourself a Welshman???

I would generally have him in the top 5 Welsh fighters, with the likes of Wilde, Welsh, Driscoll and Winston.

As a Welshman this is obviously also my top 5 of the best boxers ever.

The only difficult one to rate as far as top British fighters go is Steve Robinson, obviously he is slightly ahead of Nas due to the Welshness so I'd have Robinson around 20 with Nas just behind all the other Welsh boxers and Lennox Lewis....

I can certainly see the appeal in rating Calzaghe an all timer but when you hold his record up against the very very best then I guess the question that obviously needs addressing is, is there enough prime quality?

Is there just quite enough?

Carl Froch has best record of Eubank, Benn and he.

Eubank and Benn provided us with best memories throughout their careers. It's crazy to think fights like Froch v Taylor where largely unseen by British fans. What a fight that was.

Calzaghe I sometimes struggle with. Good talent, but his CV is thin for a 46-0 career. BHOp is his best win by far (a squeaker of a win), but my god it was an ugly fight.

I sometimes mark Eubank down for fighting not one of his American counterparts

Herman Jaeger wrote:I sometimes mark Eubank down for fighting not one of his American counterparts

Eubank gets too much respect on this forum and Calzaghe not enough. Without Nigel Been where would Eubank be? Eubank's legacy is borrowed from Nigel Benn, who wasn't as good but had much more ambition and rates higher because of his win against McClellan.

I don't think Joe does too badly though universally regarded as the number one British super middleweight so far

And time could be kind to him too who's to say he won't be thought of very highly in twenty or twenty five years from now?

I guess what could influence that standing is whether someone comes along who unifies the division gets all four belts dominates with more unified defences than Joe has a longer period as the man and smashes all his American and World opposition then the bar will have been set higher

I definitely think Ward has well surpassed Joe.

No question his wins over Kovalev have put him well above Joe

Two wins at Light Heavyweight put him well ahead of someone at Super Middleweight?

In a p4p sense isn't it obvious what I meant?

A better super middleweight too imo