Benn, Froch and Eubank

First topic message reminder :

It's been brought up so I'll ask it

Who had the better cv?

That's not saying a lot considering the majority of his opposition was garbage.

LionsV2 wrote:That's not saying a lot considering the majority of his opposition was garbage.

What you saying Froch has got a better resume now?

Resume wise there isn't a lot in it with Calzaghe's 0 edging it towards him but on the overall package including talent he's a good distance ahead.

And head to head who wins head to head?

Calzaghe with ease.

Joe had about a two year window to fight Froch do you remember Froch called him up on television just wondering why then you feel Calzaghe didn't accept the challenge after having dismissed the notion of him lowering himself to fight Froch as a joke, it would have been one of the best fights in the division's history?

Hopkins and Jones represented a lot more money and at the time Froch was a nobody in relative terms, I doubt a one sided drubbing would be considered one of the best fights in the divisions history.

This Calzaghe is way ahead of the other British super middles is a myth

He may be ahead but not by much there's no clear distance separating him

If your only source is Boxrec then possibly not but having watched him over the years he's head and shoulders above the rest.

The comparison between Watson and Taylor is interesting, but I think if it was me doing the fighting, I’d rather have Taylor’s name on my CV than Watson’s.

As others have said, Taylor’s tank wasn’t the best and there’s a suggestion that he didn’t like it up him, but he certainly wasn’t short on ability. Tricky to rate Watson as well, given that his career was done at the age of twenty-six…But harsh as it might sound, he has to be put in the nearly man bracket.

He stopped an incredibly naïve Benn and performed excellently for ten-and-three-quarter rounds in the Eubank rematch (I honestly can’t give Eubank anything in that fight until that remarkable shot which felled Watson at the close of the eleventh)…But in between all that he lost narrowly to Eubank who was always an up-and-down performer at the best of times (that fight was never a robbery as is often claimed) and got a good hiding, albeit in a very brave and creditable losing effort, against McCallum.

Granted, McCallum was a great. But he was patchy as a 160 pounder, albeit against superb competition; taken to school by Kalambay and needed a questionable verdict to edge by him in the return, won a razor-close one against Bomber Graham due to Herol stopping working half way through as much as anything else, damn lucky to get a draw against Toney and then lost that rematch as well. But too good for Watson without any argument post the mid-way point, where the fight became a beat down if my memory serves.

Of course, as Milky has said, it’s entirely possible that McCallum would have done the same to Taylor as well, given that Jermain much preferred to be faced with a pure stylist rather than someone who attacked with bad intentions (see what I did there?). But he did make it to the top of the tree for a while, whereas Watson didn’t. Watson showed he was a classy boxer, but let’s not forgot how comprehensively Taylor outboxed Froch before being worn down. A focussed Taylor was no joke.

Never looked at Boxrec in my life

Styles make fights Froch would have been one of the hardest nights of his career possibly even THE hardest

Herman Jaeger wrote:Never looked at Boxrec in my life

Styles make fights Froch would have been one of his hardest nights of his career possibly even THE hardest

Of course not, makes you unique within the boxing fraternity then.

Styles wise Calzaghe holds every advantage, his speed, work rate and southpaw stance completely negates anything Froch has to offer safe in the knowledge his chin could withstand anything coming his way anyway.

Good post Chris but something of a myth to say Taylor comprehensively out boxed Froch till the stoppage

Yes he out boxed him till the knockdown but oddly from that point on it was all Froch

LionsV2 wrote:

Herman Jaeger wrote:Never looked at Boxrec in my life

Styles make fights Froch would have been one of his hardest nights of his career possibly even THE hardest

Of course not, makes you unique within the boxing fraternity then.

Styles wise Calzaghe holds every advantage, his speed, work rate and southpaw stance completely negates anything Froch has to offer safe in the knowledge his chin could withstand anything coming his way anyway.

What you say may all very well be true but you're ignoring the chemistry between the two fighters

Not saying who wins but it wouldn't have been one sided it simply would not have been one sided Calzaghe has since said himself it would have been a very hard fight. But that's what you get with Carl Froch

Let me clarify, Herman: You're right, Taylor didn't just dominate for eleven rounds before suddenly being stopped out of the blue. Apologies if my post came across as saying that. Froch had been making headway for three previous rounds or so and was value for the win.

But I'd disagree that Froch dominated from the knockdown onwards (that was the third round if my memory isn't playing tricks?). I didn't really see any light at the end of the tunnel for Froch until the eighth or so, and for me until that point Taylor's domination was as complete as Ward's would be a couple of years or so later.

Impressive stuff, because while it wasn't his strongest suit, Froch was far from useless in the 'pure' boxing department as he showed against Abraham and Groves II.

No you didn't say Taylor dominated till the ko I was wrong to suggest you did

However in the Taylor fight after the knockdown I always felt Froch was gaining in stature and that rise was uninterrupted till the ko with no momentum ever going back to Taylor whereas in the Ward fight Froch couldn't get a foothold at all. Not until the last couple of rounds anyway. But it was too little too late

LionsV2 wrote:

Herman Jaeger wrote:Never looked at Boxrec in my life

Styles make fights Froch would have been one of his hardest nights of his career possibly even THE hardest

Of course not, makes you unique within the boxing fraternity then.

Styles wise Calzaghe holds every advantage, his speed, work rate and southpaw stance completely negates anything Froch has to offer safe in the knowledge his chin could withstand anything coming his way anyway.

It would have been a nice passing of the torch fight just as Froch's fight with DeGale would have been. I would like to have seen Calzahe and Froch takes those fights I think they would have added to their respective legacies

Never look at Boxrec, no kidding

I understand Calzaghe's thinking though being destroyed off a fighter he hates who if he was ten years younger he would handle with ease

Though to be honest if Reid can push Calzaghe to the wire so can Froch...

88Chris05 wrote:The comparison between Watson and Taylor is interesting, but I think if it was me doing the fighting, I’d rather have Taylor’s name on my CV than Watson’s.

As others have said, Taylor’s tank wasn’t the best and there’s a suggestion that he didn’t like it up him, but he certainly wasn’t short on ability. Tricky to rate Watson as well, given that his career was done at the age of twenty-six…But harsh as it might sound, he has to be put in the nearly man bracket.

He stopped an incredibly naïve Benn and performed excellently for ten-and-three-quarter rounds in the Eubank rematch (I honestly can’t give Eubank anything in that fight until that remarkable shot which felled Watson at the close of the eleventh)…But in between all that he lost narrowly to Eubank who was always an up-and-down performer at the best of times (that fight was never a robbery as is often claimed) and got a good hiding, albeit in a very brave and creditable losing effort, against McCallum.

Granted, McCallum was a great. But he was patchy as a 160 pounder, albeit against superb competition; taken to school by Kalambay and needed a questionable verdict to edge by him in the return, won a razor-close one against Bomber Graham due to Herol stopping working half way through as much as anything else, damn lucky to get a draw against Toney and then lost that rematch as well. But too good for Watson without any argument post the mid-way point, where the fight became a beat down if my memory serves.

Of course, as Milky has said, it’s entirely possible that McCallum would have done the same to Taylor as well, given that Jermain much preferred to be faced with a pure stylist rather than someone who attacked with bad intentions (see what I did there?). But he did make it to the top of the tree for a while, whereas Watson didn’t. Watson showed he was a classy boxer, but let’s not forgot how comprehensively Taylor outboxed Froch before being worn down. A focussed Taylor was no joke.

Taylor was also the lineal middleweight king (ditto for Pascal at light heavy). Some folk don't like the term "lineal" but he was a real champion. That gives him the edge over Watson. Kessler, while never the full champ at 168 is one of the best ever at super middle. Those three scalps are huge for Froch (and he won all three in exciting fashion).

He also holds another win over a lineal champ: the still useful Glencoffe Johnson.

What if Froch had been Reid? What if it was Froch the night Calzaghe boxed Reid? What if Froch had knocked out Calzaghe in a brutal classic? Would Calzaghe have gone on to the career he had? Still rated the best British super middle yet

Froch got his ears boxed off until around 8th/9th against Taylor, no way was he in the ascendancy from the 3rd round onwards.

Johnson was well past his prime, and outboxed Froch for the first few rounds before slowing down considerably. Kessler win was s good one,  although he lost an equally competitive fight to him when both were probably nearer their primes.

At super middleweight/middleweight only Ward has separated himself from the pack for me as the one you could confidently predict would beat all the others

Herman Jaeger wrote:What if Froch had been Reid? What if it was Froch the night Calzaghe boxed Reid? What if Froch had knocked out Calzaghe in a brutal classic? Would Calzaghe have gone on to the career he had? Still rated the best British super middle yet

If Froch had brutally KO'd him he would obviously be considered the better super middle.

Just can't see any way that would have happened. Had thy fought at the time it was being discussed with Froch being angry and forgotten due to poor promotion and Calzaghe looking for a few decent pay checks I could see Froch knocking him down. Just can't see any way he could have won though.

Calzaghe was just too busy and Froch wouldn't have had enough.

Timing just wasn't right though. Froch had no real name and Calzaghe was trying to earn all he could in his last couple of fights away from Warren. Had Hearn had the dominance he had and Froch on his books it could have been different as the payday would warrant the fight.

Herman Jaeger wrote:What if Froch had been Reid? What if it was Froch the night Calzaghe boxed Reid? What if Froch had knocked out Calzaghe in a brutal classic? Would Calzaghe have gone on to the career he had? Still rated the best British super middle yet

So if Carl Froch was a different person with a different name so not actually Carl Froch? Riiiight.

Undoubtedly Carl Froch. It's not really a debate. He fought other titleists and won whereas in the most part the other two never unified, tried to but drew with each other.

I posted about the myth surrounding the era of Benn, Eubank, Collins , Watson in the past and concluded that none of them were top tier fighters. They created an aura about them because of the domestic rivalries and the fact they were on terrestrial TV (which bolstered their standing a lot). I find that Eubank Snr in particular gets too much respect. He was for the entirety a WBO fighter fighting sub par opponents (something which Calzaghe gets frequently slated for yet Eubank gets a pass on) yet people seem to give him large credit and comment on how good he was even though he never actually proved it by fighting and beating the best.

Anyway, Calzaghe is a notch about them all. The only one of them that was the true champ of SMW.

Herman Jaeger wrote:Joe had about a two year window to fight Froch do you remember Froch called him up on television just wondering why then you feel Calzaghe didn't accept the challenge after having dismissed the notion of him lowering himself to fight Froch as a joke, it would have been one of the best fights in the division's history?

Yet Froch did the same with DeGale yet gets a pass on it.

Before I get abuse from Jones' fans I don't separate him from the rest as I can't entirely convince myself he would have beaten Gerald McClellan. He may have done but I don't see it as a certainty

Someone rangy with long arms accurate with dynamite could be trouble for Roy

Calzaghe the number one super middleweight yet I'm happy to go along with that who knows he may have beaten Froch easily if it had just been five years earlier?

I think I must be one of those that is a bit blind to Benn / Eubank than as this was the era that I got into boxing.

This and I never really warmed to Froch. Have always respected him but couldn't take to the personality and all the trenches talk.

Mochyn du wrote:

Herman Jaeger wrote:Joe had about a two year window to fight Froch do you remember Froch called him up on television just wondering why then you feel Calzaghe didn't accept the challenge after having dismissed the notion of him lowering himself to fight Froch as a joke, it would have been one of the best fights in the division's history?

Yet Froch did the same with DeGale yet gets a pass on it.

Very disappointed in Froch not defending against DeGale to be honest as many people myself included felt DeGale did enough to get his arm raised against Groves

"I think I must be one of those that is a bit blind to Benn / Eubank than as this was the era that I got into boxing."

Time has been a bit too kind to Eubank and Benn in my opinion. Terrestrial TV and the domestic rivalry between them gives people the rose tints when it comes to discussing their CVs. They were both a step below Froch (certainly in terms of achievements) who himself is behind Calzaghe.

Herman Jaeger wrote:Before I get abuse from Jones' fans I don't separate him from the rest as I can't entirely convince myself he would have beaten Gerald McClellan. He may have done but I don't see it as a certainty

Someone rangy with long arms accurate with dynamite could be trouble for Roy

Calzaghe the number one super middleweight yet I'm happy to go along with that who knows he may have beaten Froch easily if it had just been five years earlier?

For me the only way there would have been any doubt would have been if Calzaghe underestimated Froch. At the time Froch wanted Calzaghe he hadn't had the exposure of the super 6 and didn't have the promotional backing that he got after the event. If Calzaghe expected an easy night Froch may have been better than expected.

If Calzaghe expected a tough fight though I can't see it being anything other than Lacy v2 with Joe putting on a master class.

Herman Jaeger wrote:

Mochyn du wrote:

Herman Jaeger wrote:Joe had about a two year window to fight Froch do you remember Froch called him up on television just wondering why then you feel Calzaghe didn't accept the challenge after having dismissed the notion of him lowering himself to fight Froch as a joke, it would have been one of the best fights in the division's history?

Yet Froch did the same with DeGale yet gets a pass on it.

Very disappointed in Froch not defending against DeGale to be honest as many people myself included felt DeGale did enough to get his arm raised against Groves

That's a very mature opinion from a Froch fan well done. Whilst I can get a bit mean on Froch's standing (naturally being Welsh) I try to be objective. I thought he should have gone all out to rematch Ward as that was a fight that stood between him and immortality. Sure he's likely to have lost again but had he landed the punch on Ward he'd landed on Groves he'd have eclipsed Calzaghe, been a cert for ATG status and been a true world champion in the old fashioned sense of the term. Sadly, I think he realised it was a fight he couldn't win and wanted a big payday and entertaining scrap with another come forward fighter like GGG or Chavez Jnr at the end of his career. I think he wanted to avoid the slicksters who would not have given him the big payday and also given him fits which is why I think he side stepped DeGale.

Herman Jaeger wrote:At super middleweight/middleweight only Ward has separated himself from the pack for me as the one you could confidently predict would beat all the others

He'd start favourite against calzaghe. Not a gimme though. JC was prepared to unload combinations which might challenge wards preferred counter punching... and keep the pressure on for 12 rounds.

Flipside, we saw how well Bhop negated that but I think JC was a step slower at light heavy.

It would be an interesting fight.

I lost a bit of respect for Carl relinquishing to Chunky if I'm honest

Deal with your mandatory then look for the big one against Golivkin to sign out. Epic

Herman Jaeger wrote:I lost a bit of respect for Carl relinquishing to Chunky if I'm honest

Deal with your mandatory then look for the big one against Golivkin to sign out. Epic

Then he'd have another mandatory and then another one.

No he wouldn't cuz he could have said Golivkin's probably my last fight or it would have to be something big to make me consider another one

He kept us guessing a long time giving the impression he was going to take the DeGale fight lost respect for him saying it would be an easy fight for him to then relinquish

Herman Jaeger wrote:No he wouldn't cuz he could have said Golivkin's probably my last fight or it would have to be something big to make me consider another one

He kept us guessing a long time giving the impression he was going to take the DeGale fight lost respect for him saying it would be an easy fight for him to then relinquish

You can't respect anybody then, try looking at the positives once in a while.

Definitely with Hammersmith on this one. Not going to fault a boxer going out with their brain intact.

I'm not faulting Froch either but if he thinks beating lower world George is worthy of a film script he's a touch deluded

Now a fight against Gilivkin at Wembley followed by a crack at Kovalev for the light heavyweight crown also at Wembley then we might be talking about a film true boxing legend

Scottrf wrote:Definitely with Hammersmith on this one. Not going to fault a boxer going out with their brain intact.

Grass

Herman Jaeger wrote:I'm not faulting Froch either but if he thinks beating lower world George is worthy of a film script he's a touch deluded

Now a fight against Gilivkin at Wembley followed by a crack at Kovalev for the light heavyweight crown also at Wembley then we might be talking about a film true boxing legend

And then if he stepped up to beat Joshua, followed by a mandatory he would become a sporting legend.

But he's had a lot of tough fights and was in his mid 30s.

I don’t see how anyone can be too hard on Froch for not bothering with Chunky. If DeGale wasn’t British, would anyone on here really think Froch was missing out on that many potential legacy points by refusing the fight?

Sure, it would have been a decent fight. But merely decent fights are ten-a-penny. As others have said, if he’d have got through DeGale, there’d have been another ‘decent’ mandatory. Then another. Then another. You get the idea. Whichever point a fighter stops at, there’s always a mandatory, or a potential half-decent opponent. Have to draw the line at some point.

Had DeGale stood out as THE fight which everyone wanted to see, or had he shown that he’s the daddy at 168 since, then maybe it could be viewed as a black mark against Froch. But DeGale hasn’t really set the world alight since 2015. Very good win in tough circumstances against Dirrell, but he’s been underwhelming in his subsequent defences, against less than stellar opposition.

If Froch was ever going to fight again after Groves II, anything other than Golovkin, a move up to 175 for Stevenson / Kovalev or (my least favourite, admittedly) a Vegas fight with Chavez wouldn’t have added owt to his legacy and would have been a bit pointless in the long run. Froch’s retirement, to me, is one of the most perfectly-timed in recent years.

Scottrf wrote:

Herman Jaeger wrote:I'm not faulting Froch either but if he thinks beating lower world George is worthy of a film script he's a touch deluded

Now a fight against Gilivkin at Wembley followed by a crack at Kovalev for the light heavyweight crown also at Wembley then we might be talking about a film true boxing legend

And then if he stepped up to beat Joshua, followed by a mandatory he would become a sporting legend.

But he's had a lot of tough fights and was in his mid 30s.

Just knock the film script talk on the head that's all what he achieved in the game has been bettered my many pugilists before him

Beating Golivkin and Kovalev(just one weight class above) now that would be legendary

Don't know what the Joshua comment has got to do with anything nobody goes from 68 to challenge for the heavyweight title

88Chris05 wrote:I don’t see how anyone can be too hard on Froch for not bothering with Chunky. If DeGale wasn’t British, would anyone on here really think Froch was missing out on that many potential legacy points by refusing the fight?

Sure, it would have been a decent fight. But merely decent fights are ten-a-penny. As others have said, if he’d have got through DeGale, there’d have been another ‘decent’ mandatory. Then another. Then another. You get the idea. Whichever point a fighter stops at, there’s always a mandatory, or a potential half-decent opponent. Have to draw the line at some point.

Had DeGale stood out as THE fight which everyone wanted to see, or had he shown that he’s the daddy at 168 since, then maybe it could be viewed as a black mark against Froch. But DeGale hasn’t really set the world alight since 2015. Very good win in tough circumstances against Dirrell, but he’s been underwhelming in his subsequent defences, against less than stellar opposition.

If Froch was ever going to fight again after Groves II, anything other than Golovkin, a move up to 175 for Stevenson / Kovalev or (my least favourite, admittedly) a Vegas fight with Chavez wouldn’t have added owt to his legacy and would have been a bit pointless in the long run. Froch’s retirement, to me, is one of the most perfectly-timed in recent years.

Chunky's still unbeaten since winning the title Chris and beat the guy who made Froch look silly in a very good display of boxing away from home

Dirrell also made Degale look silly in the second half off that fight and whilst I felt he just about edged it with a decent 12th round it was an incredibly close fight.

He made DeGale look silly and clueless at no stage in the fight for me. He had a good spell late on but Chunky won with a bit up his sleeve

Odd because it's late on that he lost the fight, had he won the 12th it's a draw.

We all have our opinions I had it for DeGale by a point maybe even two somebody might have scored it differently doesn't make me right doesn't make them right

It was a good effort because from my point of view after the 10th it was Dirrells fight but after 6 rounds of nothing Degale found a big finish.