England vs West Indies - test series thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

So England have announced that the squad for this series will be announced today....will try to update as soon as it comes out!

[alfie]

Good toss for West Indies to win...

Now we shall see whether England can handle batting second. Recent records aren't encouraging. Wonder how the bookies see this one ?

[alfie]

Cook in the horrors at slip ! What's going on ? He drops a simple catch (Brathwaite again !) and denies Anderson number 498.

Suppose he will make another hundred now ...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Cook in the horrors at slip !  What's going on ?  He drops a simple catch (Brathwaite again !) and denies Anderson number 498.

Suppose he will make another hundred now ...

He's had the dropsies for longer than this series...seem to remember him dropping a few in the winter too. Might be time to get him out of there...these aren't tough chances he's dropping!

[alfie]

He used to drop the odd one : but he took plenty of good catches and I rate him as a generally reliable slip. This is new : three drops in a row now.

When your confidence goes slip can be an unforgiving place ! (As I know to my regret from last season )

Will be a concern if they have to move him ...good slip catchers don't grow on trees.

[alfie]

Well Jimmy got his man anyway...but a few overs later , just ahead of the rain.
West Indies might be glad to have lost only one in that short session.

Are we going to get more play or what ?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Wickets from TRJ and Stokes have West Indies 78/4

If England can get Blackwood early they'll be well in charge

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Phwoar that delivery from Stokes to bowl Chase was so good it shouldn't be allowed to be shown before the watershed

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I believe they call this a "bowling" day...

[dummy_half]

Watched the wickets just now - anyone any suggestions as to how either Chase or Holder were supposed to not get out to those?

[VTR]

England actually in some danger of losing the series now. The next hour or so of play could define the outcome of the match - not sure though if there will be much/any play today

Westley is surely done as a Test player now, a shame after a promising start but he has been utterly found out. Of course he wasn't the only one to fail yesterday but the manner of it was entirely predictable

[LionsV2]

Could change very quickly if he doesn't score any more runs but Ben Stokes currently has a higher batting average than bowling average;

Batting- 35.5
Bowling- 33.5

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

England actually in some danger of losing the series now. The next hour or so of play could define the outcome of the match - not sure though if there will be much/any play today

Westley is surely done as a Test player now, a shame after a promising start but he has been utterly found out. Of course he wasn't the only one to fail yesterday but the manner of it was entirely predictable

I think England are still in a good position here - only 77 behind with 6 wickets in hand, at very worst they'll achieve parity, but I'm confident they'll get a lead. The conditions yesterday were so stacked in favour of bowling, it will surely relent a bit. Although as you note, there's unlikely to be much if any play today due to rain

[dummy_half]

England actually in some danger of losing the series now. The next hour or so of play could define the outcome of the match - not sure though if there will be much/any play today

Westley is surely done as a Test player now, a shame after a promising start but he has been utterly found out. Of course he wasn't the only one to fail yesterday but the manner of it was entirely predictable

Grey and damp just north of London at the moment, and the forecast for later suggests an old long haired guy with a boat and animals coming in 2 by 2 may be spotted. Better chance of some play earlier, but even then shower-dodging.

Interestingly poised match - with our batting strength down to Moeen at 8, a good session and a half could see us 100 runs ahead, but it's still possible we could concede a first innings lead.

Agree about Westley - his head's fried at the moment. I suspect though it's the fault of the coaches, in trying to address his tendency to play out to in have made him doubt a technique that he's managed to make work for a decade or more. As some others have pointed out, Steve Smith has a similar (indeed far more extreme version of the same) method, and he makes it work simply because he doesn't miss the ball often.

The problem is that if Westley is cut loose now, who comes in for the Ashes series?
Do we end up with 3 specialist openers batting 1-3 (so Hameed on the back of a couple of 50s?).
Move Root up to 3 and bring someone else in at 4/5 (Hales? Ballance? - the latter having shown no form since his injury, the former having questionable technique for tests)
Look backwards for a short-term fix like Bell (who has also had no form)?
Throw a promising youngster in to the lions den (Livingstone, Duckett?)
Suddenly discover some long-lost British grandparents for Kumar Sangakkara

[Duty281]

England actually in some danger of losing the series now. The next hour or so of play could define the outcome of the match - not sure though if there will be much/any play today

Westley is surely done as a Test player now, a shame after a promising start but he has been utterly found out. Of course he wasn't the only one to fail yesterday but the manner of it was entirely predictable

England listened to the garbage that Michael Vaughan spouted after the first Test and thought that the Windies would be a pushover.

They're not.

Good conditions for batting tomorrow, so England are (for the moment) under pressure with the heavy cloud of today.

[KO-KING]

Imagine Stokes will get a big 50,when he's on, he's on

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Stokes/Malan playing positively here - the right way imo, in these conditions you're likely to have a ball with your name on it at some point, might as well try and rack up some runs whilst in rather than scratch around - especially with West Indies lead being so minimal

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Stokes/Malan playing positively here - the right way imo, in these conditions you're likely to have a ball with your name on it at some point, might as well try and rack up some runs whilst in rather than scratch around - especially with West Indies lead being so minimal

And Roach gets Malan with a pearler of a delivery - around the wicket angling into middle and off, then nipping away taking the edge. Lovely

[Gooseberry]

England actually in some danger of losing the series now. The next hour or so of play could define the outcome of the match - not sure though if there will be much/any play today

Westley is surely done as a Test player now, a shame after a promising start but he has been utterly found out. Of course he wasn't the only one to fail yesterday but the manner of it was entirely predictable

Agree about Westley - his head's fried at the moment. I suspect though it's the fault of the coaches, in trying to address his tendency to play out to in have made him doubt a technique that he's managed to make work for a decade or more. As some others have pointed out, Steve Smith has a similar (indeed far more extreme version of the same) method, and he makes it work simply because he doesn't miss the ball often.

Westley has a first class average of 36 from county cricket ...inclduing a fair bit of div2 and second X1 cricket. I dont think his technique has ever been THAT succesful or great for teh longer forms. His record in limited overs is much better.
I suspect part of the reason that England have tried to nurture him through (aside from the complete disater zone that is their top 3) is that hes fairly tall and can take on agressive fast bowling rather than ability to handle the extreme swing of an English "summer". And lets face it everyone has struggled, Cook included, in this game against the moving ball.
I dont think we can really blame the coaches or pretend he was somehow a great player for the past decade. Its only the last few years hes made any impact.

[dummy_half]

Goose

I wasn't really being an advocate for Westley, but when he made his debut against SA he looked reasonably organised and like someone that knew his method. Your point that he has a mediocre career average is fair, but he has shown better form this summer (average in excess of 50, which is really the minimum I'd want from a decent test level batsman playing in div 1). He did show some vulnerability (against SA) to nicking the ball just outside off stump by looking to drive straight / through mid on while to the leg side of the ball. I suspect the coaches have had a word to try and get him to straighten up (i.e. hit that ball through mid off / extra cover), and it has resulted in him trying to get his front foot over more and he's simply getting into bad alignment - front foot on off stump, head too far to the off side and the bat having to come round the front pad too much for any ball that nips back. As I said, I think it's one of these cases (as with Finn's run-up issues) where attempting to coach out a relatively minor problem has caused confusion and far worse issues.

I'm not putting all the blame on the coaching, but was more trying to make the point that not every batsman has Ian Bell-esque textbook technique, but as long as you can make what you do work it shouldn't really matter.

[KO-KING]

I always find knocking about 10 off from the FC batting average gives a good indication of where the batsmen stands

Many exceptions do exist though

[VTR]

I always find knocking about 10 off from the FC batting average gives a good indication of where the batsmen stands

Many exceptions do exist though

I think that's fair. Of course it's always compulsory to talk about Vaughan and Trescothick in such debates - which overlooks the fact both pretty much retired from Tests ten years ago now!

[Gooseberry]

I always find knocking about 10 off from the FC batting average gives a good indication of where the batsmen stands

Many exceptions do exist though

It doesnt really work for guys like Cook either ...more than half his first class games are tests.

[dummy_half]

I always find knocking about 10 off from the FC batting average gives a good indication of where the batsmen stands

Many exceptions do exist though

It doesnt really work for guys like Cook either ...more than half his first class games are tests.

Similarly for Root, whose FC average is lower than his Test average, again with just over half his FC games being test matches. For England players who start their international careers at 21 or 22, they really aren't going to play much 4 day county cricket through the peak years of their careers.

[dummy_half]

Of course, the reason this digression started was discussion of the performance of Westley, who has played about a decade of County cricket before being selected by England. For players like him, Malan and Stoneman, KO KING's suggestion of take 10 off their first class average might not be a bad rule of thumb. To be honest, finding a second opener who could average 27 or so would be a step up on what we've had in the last 3 or 4 years...

Anyway. play is back under way at present, although the forecast for the rest of the afternoon is a couple of hours with light showers and then a thunderstorm around 5pm

[VTR]

Put BBC back on to check when play might resume and discover not only are they playing but Stokes has made a run-a-ball 50. Whatever else happens in this game his performance has been incredible

[Duty281]

Stokes bowled off a no-ball.

That could change the direction of the entire series.

[VTR]

Yep - Stokes on 60 at the time for the record. Let's see then how many runs it costs

[VTR]

0 runs as it turns out!

[Duty281]

Or not. Nearly a replica two balls later, only without the no-ball.

[VTR]

This is looking dangerous for England still. It's turning into a one innings game which generally favours the team batting third. A lead of 50 or so is needed but I can't see where it's going to come from

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

This is looking dangerous for England still. It's turning into a one innings game which generally favours the team batting third. A lead of 50 or so is needed but I can't see where it's going to come from

They should throw the bat here and try get another 20/30 and get the Windies back in. Perfect bowling conditions still

[VTR]

Agreed - the aim would then to be roll the Windies for <150 again and limit the run chase to something small in what's looking like much better conditions tomorrow

[Duty281]

This is looking dangerous for England still. It's turning into a one innings game which generally favours the team batting third. A lead of 50 or so is needed but I can't see where it's going to come from

Recent history at Lord's suggests anything above 200 is curtains for the chasing side: only 1 successful chase above 200 in the 26 tests this century with a positive result (I.e. Where a side managed to win).

Moeen gone.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Agreed - the aim would then to be roll the Windies for <150 again and limit the run chase to something small in what's looking like much better conditions tomorrow

Yep agreed - ball is swinging and the pitch is offering assistance. England need Broad to not waste the new ball for the first time this series

[VTR]

Broad has been very poor this series. I'd seriously consider giving the new ball to Stokes or at the very most give Broad 3 or 4 overs to get it right rather than the 8 or 9 initial burst of wasteful rubbish he's generally been serving up. Watch him get an 8-for now

[dummy_half]

Toblerone Jones and Broad picking up a few quick runs here, taking the lead out past 40. Not much in a normal situation, but in the context of a match where 18 wickets have fallen for under 300 runs, a very handy contribution.

[dummy_half]

And I take a wicket with the above post

[dummy_half]

Oh, and it is now raining about 15 miles north north west of Lords, after about 30 minutes of reasonably blue sky

[Duty281]

Slight advantage to England.

Windies will need to make at least 320, so they'll be aiming to bat out today and tomorrow. Conditions have improved somewhat.

[Duty281]

500 for Anderson.

Delightful.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Broad hasn't bowled great this series - but he's had 7 dropped catches off his bowling. England really need to improve their fielding

[Duty281]

Terrible review. Broad has a wicket, and the Windies are in early difficulty.

[alfie]

Broad not needing fielders to get Hope...

Plumb lbw and a Watsonesque waste of a review

The main Hope in now...Broad might think his luck has changed with that wicket so he will be keen to build on it.

[alfie]

500 for Anderson.

Delightful.

It was a great pleasure to see Jimmy get the milestone with such a superb delivery
A decent victim too , in Brathwaite.

Slightly surprised he didn't take more scalps in that opening spell - he beat the bat enough. Time for Toby to make his mark now ?

[alfie]

This is looking dangerous for England still. It's turning into a one innings game which generally favours the team batting third. A lead of 50 or so is needed but I can't see where it's going to come from

Recent history at Lord's  suggests anything above 200 is curtains for the chasing side: only 1 successful chase above 200 in the 26 tests this century with a positive result (I.e. Where a side managed to win).

Moeen gone.

A fair point re the advantage of batting third : except that in this case conditions have been extremely favorable to the bowlers on these first two days and you'd think the next two days will both tend to be much better for batting .

I think there have also been a fair few draws at Lord's where the team batting last has batted out safely. Not sure a chase of 200 would be that forbidding ? Though with the fragility of England's top order I'm sure they'd rather be chasing a lot less

[guildfordbat]

Great achievement by Jimmy Anderson.

In other news, Championship runs for Ben Foakes at the Rose Bowl. Scores of 47 and 83 not out in Surrey's drawn game against Hants. Particularly with England's middle order in the soup all summer, that might prompt more discussion of him keeping for England with Bairstow moving up the order and playing solely as a batter. I'm far from convinced that the selectors will do it (or that they should) but it has to remain an option. Foakes is certainly a top keeper.

[alfie]

Hi guildford

I'd take Foakes to Australia as reserve keeper rather than Buttler.

But I do not think there is any plan to take the gloves off YJB - nor should there be ; he has improved out of sight behind the stumps. And I am not convinced he would score enough at five to justify moving him up : so Foakes would have to score a lot of runs for such a move to make sense...

[guildfordbat]

Hi Alfie - that remains my thinking too but I would like to see England's middle order making a better case to keep their places.

[Duty281]

Impressive partnership comes to an end with Jimmy bowling the ball of the series.

Similar to the delivery that dismissed Clarke in 2013.

[Hibbz]

No 500 must have felt pretty special but No 501 was as good as the Warne porkpie that dismissed Gatting.

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