London Irish 2017/18 thread - Return to the Premiership.

[Ozzy3213]

First topic message reminder :

Welcome to this seasons thread for talking about all things London Irish.

Technical Director: Brendan Venter
Director of Rugby: Nick Kennedy

Forwards Coach: George Skivington
Defence Coach: Declan Danaher
Attack/Skills Coach: Paul Hodgson
Kicking Coach: Charlie Hodgson

Senior Squad (46)

Hooker: David Paice, Saia Fainga'a, David Porecki, Darren Dawidiuk, Todd Gleave 
Prop: Gordon Reid, Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi, Tom Smallbone, Harry Elrington, Ben Franks, Petrus du Plessis, Lovely Chawatama, Manasa Saulo, Richard Palframan, Ollie Hoskins
Second Row: Sebastien de Chaves, Will Lloyd, Josh McNally, Teofilo Paulo, Franco van der Merwe
Back Row: Blair Cowan, Ofisa Treviranus, Jake Schatz, Connor Gilsenen, Lasha Lomidze, Mike Coman, Max Northcote-Green, Senitiki Nayalo

Scrum Half: Brendan McKibbin, Scott Steele, Ben Meehan
Fly Half: James Marshall, Theo Brophy-Clews
Centre: Johnny Williams, Fergus Mulchrone, Ciaran Hearn, Luke McLean
Wing: Alex Lewington, Joe Cokanasiga, Napolioni Nalaga, Aseli Tikoroituma, Topsy Ojo, Ben Ransom, Tom Fowlie
Full Back: Tommy Bell, Greig Tonks


Senior Academy Squad (10)

Lock: Sam Collingridge
Back Row: Isaac Curtis-Harris, Jack Cooke, Josh Basham
Scrum Half: Rory Brand
Fly Half: Jacob Atkins
Centre: Matt Williams
Wing: Ollie Hassell-Collins, Ben Loader
Full Back: Tom Parton


Preview

It's pretty hard to judge this London Irish squad against the teams that it will face this season, as being newly promoted there is no recent physical evidence with which to make a comparison.  What we can say is that during our last season in the Premiership we were not good enough, that is an indisputable fact.

Much however has changed since then.  Tom Coventry left and in his place stepped up Nick Kennedy as Director of Rugby, with his able deputies from the academy, Declan Danaher and Paul Hodgson alongside him.  Whilst this coaching set up was inexperienced, the man brought in to oversea things was certainly not.  Step forward Brendan Venter as technical director.  Now much has been said about a change in culture at Irish last season but you have to do more than just scratch the surface of names on a piece of paper to understand what that means, and in many regards it is difficult to quantify.

Midway through last season however I was fortunate enough to chat to one of the players, who shall remain nameless, but who told me this.  He said that under the Coventry regime your face either fitted or it didn't.  If you were not in the inner circle there was blame and criticism but little in the way of encouragement or assistance to improve.  Now however he said that the coaches were open and there was dialogue between them and the players, and Venter, whilst fierce and a force of nature who would tell you exactly what you had done wrong in a game, was also approachable and would listen to your viewpoint, and help you to improve from any mistakes you did make, and that honesty and openness was now a feature throughout the squad and coaches.  That, I have to say is a significant shift in mindset and that almost freedom to make mistakes without being paralysed by the fear of failure may be a key factor once this season gets underway.

On paper, which is all we can go by until we see this side play, the squad is stronger than when we went down, and stronger than when we won the Championship in May.  Recruitment, wisely in my opinion has been more forward focused than backs, with a 9-3 split in that regard, including experienced campaigners Petrus du Plessis (from Saracens) and Franco van der Merwe (from Ulster via Cardiff), alongside international front rowers Gordon Reid and Saia Faingaa.  Neither Venter nor Kennedy are daft, our season will not be defined by whether we are able to chuck the ball about at will, we will stand or fall on whether we can gain parity or better up front often enough to pick up points.  To that end, our most important back this year is not likely to be the expansive James Marshall or explosive Napolioni Nalaga, but the metronomic Tommy Bell, who racked up the points from tee in The Championship and will need to do so again in the Premiership this year.

There isn't really much more to say, we just don't know until the first ball is kicked what we are going to get.  My general thoughts on the Premiership are that Sarries, Wasps, Chiefs, Bath and Tigers are in a league of five competing for the four play off spots, and the remaining seven teams are all fairly even, with all having the positives, but all having some major weaknesses that could be exploited by the others.  What order those seven (us included) finish in is anybodies guess, and luck, injuries and momentum will play a part.  We need to start better than we did two years ago when we picked up zero points from our first five matches, if we can get some early momentum, then who knows, a decent mid table finish may not be out of the question.

Prediction:  Anywhere from 6th to 12th!

[stnick88]

Europe and LV is coming at a good time for us as will allow the likes of Fainga'a, Meehan, Paulo, Schatz, Brophy-Clews to get match fitness and practice up. could field a decent and exciting side.

1 Elrington/Smallbone
2 Fainga'a
3 Saulo
4 McInally
5 Paulo
6 Lomidze
7 Northcote-Green
8 Schatz
9 Meehan
10 Brophy-Clews
11 Cokanasiga
12 McLean
13 Fowlie
14 Ransom
15 Tonks

[Smudge21]

So what did we learn from last night?
Negatives
1.Defense is still very suspect with one on one tackling being the main issue
2.we still seem to panick when in attacking positions
3. Discipline
4. Lack of ball carriers
Positives
1. Second half
2. Bench very good particularly fowlie
3.intensity was better
4.Lewington
Based on what vibrant yesterday I'd like to see the following team...
Elrington
Paice
Franks
Franco
Paulo
Gilsenan
Cowan
Treviranus - Schatz if Trev is injured
Meehan
Marshall
Ransom
Williams - tonks if Johnny is injured
Fowlie
Lewington
Bell
Faingaa
Smallbone
Hoskins
De chaves
Mcnally
Mckibbin
Tiks
Topsy

[Hazel Sapling]

How has Scott Steele's season gone? At the moment, the Scottish 3rd choice 9 spot is quite open.

[Margin_Walker]

How has Scott Steele's season gone? At the moment, the Scottish 3rd choice 9 spot is quite open.

He's been okay. Certainly not 'pick me for international rugby' form though.

[Ozzy3213]

Steele has been poor for me, but marginally better than McKibbin. We saw a real difference when Meehan came on against Falcons. I hope Meehan gets the start this week against Tigers and if he's playing well we leave him in for the full 80 minutes.

[Margin_Walker]

Sure Meehan will be decent, but his major contribution on Friday was shouting at the ref to concede a pen at a vital moment. Idiotic after we'd already been marched back a couple of times in the game.

If he starts, I hope a plays for as long as he remains effective. Playing 9s for 80 minutes should only happen when the alternative is a large step down. Which I don't think is the case here

[Margin_Walker]

In other news, great news on the Cokanasiga contract. Just need to avoid relegation now as you'd think a few of the higher profile re-signings we may see could involve release clauses.

[Ozzy3213]

Meehan was sharper to the ball, barking out orders to others as to where he wanted them and looked a cut above both Steele and McKibbin to me, as he did in the pre-season game against Ealing as well.

With regard to shouting at the ref, in fairness I'm not sure you can blame him too much. Two minutes left on their line chasing a losing bonus point and the ref makes the most ridiculous call of not held I have ever seen in a rugby match. I'm glad he showed some passion to be honest and I like 9's who are chippy little tw@ts.

[Ozzy3213]

Joe singing a 4 year deal sends out a message to others that he believes we are heading in the right direction. Hopefully if we can start picking up some wins as well then recruitment will also become a lot easier with our best young talent having committed.

[Margin_Walker]

I agree on the call. However, him shouting (repeatedly) at the ref was likely the difference between us getting the ball back to have another one last crack and them taking time out of the game and 30 yards, to close out the game. Being chippy and passionate is fine, but that was poor.

Could really do with something out of the Leicester game before the break for Europe. Would feel like progress after four games without a point.

[Ozzy3213]

Agree, we need something this week, even if it's just a bonus point. Just something tangible to show that we are capable of getting something from games.

[Smudge21]

Meehans pass is a lot sharper in my opinion and he is a good sniper.
Judging by the A league side him and steele will be the scrum halves again, and perhaps more significantly Williams is fit as both McLean and hearn are starting tonight which suggests they won't play on Saturday

[SirBurger]

My team for the weekend:

1. Franks
2. Paice
3. Hoskins
4. Van der Merwe
5. De Chaves
6. McNally
7. Cowan
8. Treviranus (if fit)

9. Meehan
10. Marshall
11. Fowlie
12. Williams (if fit)
13. Tikoirotuma
14. Lewington
15. Bell

Bench: Faingaa, Elrington, Du Plessis, Paulo, Schatz, McKibbin, Tonks, Cokanasiga

[Margin_Walker]

That's what I'd go with too. Guessing Tonks/Schatz will drop in if Williams/Trev aren't fit.

Really good to see Fowlie looking good off the bench at the weekend. Always looks like he has the physical tools, but perhaps just needs a bit of confidence (and luck with injuries...) to kick on. Took his try very well and looked dangerous before that.

[Smudge21]

Long term is fowlie seen as a centre or wing?

[Margin_Walker]

I'm not sure. I think when he had is last run of games he was being looked at as a 13, but he's certainly quick enough to play out wide. I doubt he cares too much and would probably just be glad to get an opportunity wherever it is.

[SirBurger]

I think we would all like him to be a 13, but he has always looked more comfortable on the wing. I think you’re right MW - he definitely seems like a confidence player to me. I would play him on the wing for a while longer and then perhaps see how he goes at 13 during the LV.

[Smudge21]

I've always liked fowlie at 13 as he's got pace, solid in defence and is slightly more physical than people give him credit for. But something hasnt quite clicked yet. We've see some moments of magic from him but also games where he is completely ineffective. A run of good form could really be the making of him

[Ozzy3213]

I'm not a fan of Tiks at 13 and given the strength of Fowlie's performance off the bench on Friday night I'd like to see him start at 13 at the weekend, with Tiks shifted out to the wing where I think he is more dangerous.

[propdavid_london]

How long is Mulchrone out for?

[Ozzy3213]

How long is Mulchrone out for?

Update last week said he is a few weeks away, which could mean anything!

[stnick88]

i think the hope is that mulchrone and coman will be back for november

[Ozzy3213]

I'm really interested to see what the starting line up is this week.

[stnick88]

I don't think there will be too many changes. cant see the front 5 being changed. perhaps one change in the backrow and maybe a start for Fowlie or Tonks.

[Driver]

I'm not a fan of Tiks at 13 and given the strength of Fowlie's performance off the bench on Friday night I'd like to see him start at 13 at the weekend, with Tiks shifted out to the wing where I think he is more dangerous.

Thought Fowlie changed the game for you guys Friday night, Blair Cowen had a busy evening too. Really impressed by him.

[Heaf2]

For some reason Tiks at 13 again and Fowlie on the bench

[SirBurger]

I’m more frustrated by Du Plessis being selected to be honest. He does sweet FA around the park.

[Ozzy3213]

I agree SB, I'd have started Hoskins today.

[Heaf2]

For some reason Tiks at 13 again and Fowlie on the bench

Still puzzled ...

[Ozzy3213]

Difficult watch yesterday. If you get savaged by your opponents that is one thing, but to a degree all of our wounds were at least in part self inflicted yesterday.

Team selection is concerning me, and I am just hoping that Kendo has the cojones to start leaving people out who are not performing, regardless of what they have achieved in the past.

[Smudge21]

I agree ozzy, all the tries we conceded yesterday could have easily been avoided due to individual errors. The good thing is these problems are fixable and again we showed that we can compete with the best teams in the second half. In my opinion some of the older guys need a kick up the backside as the bench have been much better so for that reason against saracens I would go with....
Elrington
Paice
Hoskins
De chaves
Van de Merwe
Mcnally
Cowan
Treviranus
Meehan
Marshall
Topsy
Tonks
Fowlie
Lewington
Bell
Porecki
Reid
Franks
Paulo
Lasha
Steele
TBC
Tiks

If the likes of coman and mulchrone are fit then they would start for me but at the moment that's our best team in my opinion

[Ozzy3213]

I want to see how a few of the guys who have impressed off the bench the past two games go when starting against Edinburgh and Stade the next two weeks. If they go well some of them should stay in when we roll round to Saracens in a few weeks time.

Elrington, Hoskins and Fowlie have all looked like they could be Premiership starters the past two games, and Paulo and Lomidze both look like they can bring a lot of power to our pack.

I'd like to see a starting line up this week which looks something like this...

15. Parton
14. Cokanasiga
13. Fowlie
12. Tonks
11. Ransom
10. Brophy-Clews
9. Meehan

1. Elrington
2. Fainga'a
3. Hoskins
4. Paulo
5. Lloyd
6. Northcote-Green
7. Gilsenan
8. Lomidze

Gives those guys I've mentioned a decent shot at playing well within the team set up. Sadly I would not be surprised to see Fowlie partnered up with McLean in the centres, or even shunted to the wing to give Hearn game time at 13 as well. I don't think that will be helpful for him or the team though, so I hope I am wrong about it.

[stnick88]

Fainga'a has a fractured toe, he was in a boot on Saturday.
Gilsenan is also injured, or was at least for Saturday, but not sure on a return date for him.

[Ozzy3213]

London Irish: 15 Ben Ransom, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Tom Fowlie, 12 Johnny Williams, 11 Topsy Ojo (c), 10 Theo Brophy Clews, 9 Ben Meehan, 1 Harry Elrington, 2 Tom Woolstencroft, 3 Ollie Hoskins, 4 Will Lloyd, 5 Josh McNally, 6 Max Northcote-Green, 7 Conor Gilsenan, 8 Lasha Lomidze

Replacements: 16 Todd Gleave, 17 Tom Smallbone, 18 Lovejoy Chawatama, 19 Jack Cooke, 20 Isaac Curtis-Harris, 21 Scott Steele, 22 Jacob Atkins, 23 Ben Loader

So excited about this team. It's far from being anywhere near the finished article, but the potential in it is ridiculous.

[stnick88]

not sure if I have ever seen that 12/13 combo before but on paper it could be great. hope it works out. shame it never got a chance in the championship due to injuries.

[Smudge21]

Pretty sure Williams and fowlie played together first game of the season against Doncaster. Fowlie scored but both stood out

[stnick88]

Fair enough but if that is the only occasion its a shame as champ was a perfect chance for it.

[Margin_Walker]

Funnily enough, they played against Edinburgh in this very competition.

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=271595&league=272073

[Smudge21]

Disappointing result and performance today. A couple of individual highlights aside it was a poor performance. Not sure what team to go with next week. Do you give them another week to fix problems or bring in some more experience to hopefully gain a win at the potential expense of injury. Personally would go with
Elrington
Gleave
Hoskins
Lloyd
Mcnally
Northcote green
Gilsenan
Lomidze
Mckibbin
Tonks (if fit )
Topsy
Williams
Fowlie
Cokanasiga
Ransom
Woolstencroft
Smallbone
Lovejoy
Basham
Curtis-harris
Meehan
TBC
Loader

[Ozzy3213]

Whilst appreciating that Stade don't give a monkeys about this competition, 24-7 up with a try bonus point already at half time in Paris is a cracking place for us to be.

[Heaf2]

Wow 44-7 to LI - sounds like the defence worked for a change.

[Ozzy3213]

Defence was fantastic.  93% completion rate over 208 tackles.  

TBC, Williams and Fowlie made 42 tackles in the midfield and missed 1.

TBC - 16 tackles made, 1 missed 
Williams - 14/0 
Fowlie - 12/0 

[Ozzy3213]

Have re watched the game from Saturday night, and have to say it's the most cohesive team performance I have seen from us for a very long time.

I will be very interested to see what our team is for this week when it's announced on Friday, as a number of guys really put their hands up for selection. Ball carrying has been an issue for us in the pack for a long time, and having watched Saturday nights game twice now, Ollie Hoskins has to start in my opinion. He was our best ball carrier by some distance from what I saw, and made his tackles when they had the ball.

15. Tommy Bell
14. Alex Lewington
13. Tom Fowlie
12. Johnny Williams
11. Topsy Ojo
10. James Marshall
9. Ben Meehan

1. Harry Elrington
2. David Paice
3. Olli Hoskins
4. Filo Paulo
5. Josh McNally
6. Conor Gilsenan
7. Blair Cowan
8. Jake Schatz (unless Trev is fit)

16. Tom Woolstencroft 17. Ben Franks 18. Lovejoy Chawatama 19. Franco van der Merwe 20. Max Northcote-Green 21. Scott Steele 22. Fergus Mulchrone 23. Joe Cokanasiga

Would be the team if I was picking it.

[Ozzy3213]

[stnick88]

just watched the Stade game.

Hoskins carried well as you say Ozzy. Paulo, Gilsenan and Meehan also stood out for me.

Was also impressed with Fowlie and Brophy-Clews had a decent game. all must be in with a shout of starting this week, TBC aside as Marshall has to be at 10 for me at the moment.

[Smudge21]

Agree completely. Hoskins for me deserves a start. Best way to play saracens is to attack and he can give us front foot ball. With tiks away with Fiji it should mean that fowlie gets a start at centre as I'd give Fergus another cameo off the bench for now.
Unfortunately I can see the coaching staff reverting back to the front 5 of the past few prem games but the likes of Paulo and Hoskins must start

[Ozzy3213]

TBC's time will come and he'll get the next couple of weeks in the Anglo-Welsh to further stake his claim to a jersey.

The big calls for me are in the front 5.  Kendo needs to brave in my opinion and go with the younger, more dynamic lads to start the game.

[SirBurger]

Just felt like putting my thoughts down on paper, but this is definitely the most negative I have felt about the club in a long time. I know that the Premiership gets tougher every year and I really do think that Nick and co. will develop into fantastic coaches, but it also feels like we haven’t learned many of the lessons from our relegation year. We went down with the intention of simplifying our game plan so that it was based on a rock solid defence and an astute tactical kicking game, but neither of those things really came to fruition, even in the Championship. In terms of recruitment, there were three key areas that most fans were in agreement that we needed to sort out before the Prem, namely a ball-carrying 8, a gnarly lock and a genuine outside centre. None of those positions were properly addressed, although McNally could develop into the appropriate lock, but only by chance. Even more frustratingly, for all of his obvious talent as a DOR, Kennedy is really struggling with team selection. With Worcester seeming to improve week on week, it already feels like we are going to struggle to stay up and many pundits are also suggesting that the writing is on the wall. Lose on the 22nd and it really does look like that may be it.

Without knowing much of the financial workings of the club, it feels like if we do go down again, we may really struggle to mount a second successful promotion push on ever-reducing finances. Crossan has already indicated that he cannot keep dipping into his pockets to keep us afloat and external investment does not seem to be forthcoming.

Perhaps I am being overly negative and admittedly I have not watched every match this season. Any glimmers of hope I should be clinging onto or are others similarly concerned?

[exileray]

I agree with everything said by sirburger, none of the new signings have made any impact we lose both our best loose head props Danny & new signing Gordon Reid long term so why do we not bring in experienced injury cover, we really are in spot of bother and I don't think the coaches we have are good enough. I will continue to support the boys like I always do we have had Friday night games in sale and Newcastle & I have been at both I will be at the night games in Edinburgh and in Worcester so I am doing my bit as are lots of other supporters.
I really fear for my club if we go down again.
ps worst Irish signing in a long time...............petrus.

[Margin_Walker]

Yeah, it's a real drag at the moment. No fun spending weekends getting stressed about two results (Worcester's and ours). Another relegation (and I'd say we are slight favourites for that after the weekend) would be a real blow for the club. I think there's a good chance we'd bounce back up again without the playoffs, but that we'd be weaker again as the financial situation really starts to bite. We're not a Bristol that have the money to wait around for a while to get things right.

Game at the weekend was incredibly frustrating, as it was perfectly set up to pick up a win and vital that we did with the Worcester result the day before. We actually played some good stuff in patches, but failed miserably to get the job done. The season goes by so quickly and you can get cut adrift in the blink of an eye.

Long-term, things are definitely worrying at the moment.

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