England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

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Well this is interesting, England want world rugby to do something about the Celtic nations "poaching" their young talent. It's not as if England have not had it both ways though, with players like Ben Morgan and Sam Underhill being two that were forged in Wales before crossing back over the Severn:-

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/england-want-to-tackle-poaching-of-their-academy-products-cbvrbvj5h

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-ask-world-rugby-help-13796209

When I was reading this I had a lot of sympathy for England in this respect, but when I did a little digging I found some quite interesting articles, yes the RFU want to stop other countries taking players that they develop, but England are not as squeaky clean as they like to think they are:-

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/89379984/england-revealed-as-the-home-of-the-poacher

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/may/10/rugby-residency-rules-changed-pacific-island-exodus

After reading this, I have had a thought, that the fallout could be that a rugby player would have to declare their international intentions at a very young age.

Looking at one of those articles, Scotland would be at an instant disadvantage, I do not think this would be fair on any player, to have to nail his patriotism to the mast before you are at an age to make a responsible decision, yet that is a path we might have to go down if the RFU get their way.

marty2086 wrote:

If the RFU were serious about then will they be introducing rules to make sure English clubs duly compensate others for the development of players?

I see this as a completely separate issue.

The RFU invest millions in the academy system. It's only going to produce 5 players a year that go on to have an international career. (would be interested if anyone has some actual figures on that). If the fruit of your labour/millions is only a handful of players, It seems perfectly understandable that should someone else reap the benefits of your millions then you would want to be compensated for that.

I'm unsure how that ties in with say Saracens taking a Gloucester academy player. The RFU funded the development of the player and the player's England career is unhampered by signing for Saracens. Therefore the RFU's investment is unaffected.

It's simple really, as has been said on here previously, England should stop scouting players in other countries to put through their academies.

That will stop it from happening.

cascough wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

If the RFU were serious about then will they be introducing rules to make sure English clubs duly compensate others for the development of players?

I see this as a completely separate issue.

The RFU invest millions in the academy system. It's only going to produce 5 players a year that go on to have an international career. (would be interested if anyone has some actual figures on that). If the fruit of your labour/millions is only a handful of players, It seems perfectly understandable that should someone else reap the benefits of your millions then you would want to be compensated for that.

I'm unsure how that ties in with say Saracens taking a Gloucester academy player. The RFU funded the development of the player and the player's England career is unhampered by signing for Saracens. Therefore the RFU's investment is unaffected.

Its exactly the same issue, clubs spend millions as well.

RFU are asking World Rugby to govern the issue yet are unwilling to govern it in their own back yard, they could lead the way on the issue for World Rugby to follow but instead they stamp their feet like a stroppy teenager saying how unfair it is

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:I was joking about Grannygate, forgot though the Scots were implicated in it

But grandparents are part of the rules. Look, I do not agree with it, and I hated it when Graham Henry was doing it with Wales, but we had just lost a generation or two to Rugby league, although I am not excusing it, we still did not break any rules.

Made up ones aren't though, that was the problem

Took a while for everyone to decide that this is just a whinge from the rfu rather than try to understand any of the points.

What a strange comment

So thinking the RFU are just having a whinge means that people don't understand the points?

When the RFU are happy to do what they complain about others doing and don't police the problem in their own backyard then yes they are having a whinge.

It's doesn't mean that it's not a problem and people don't understand that

Well you can obey a law and still think the law is wrong. What would you suggest the rfu do with the other unions to lead the way? They could have let protheroe go to amateur rugby for instance and not invest in him. Is that the best solution?

Or as suggested switch their b team to u20s. Would lock a lot more players in I suppose.

marty2086 wrote:Made up ones aren't though, that was the problem

Yeah I know, Shane Howarth was a little tinker pulling that stunt. Graham Henry should have been more thorough with his vetting.

But in our defence, we did not know we were doing anything wrong apparently.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well you can obey a law and still think the law is wrong. What would you suggest the rfu do with the other unions to lead the way? They could have let protheroe go to amateur rugby for instance and not invest in him. Is that the best solution?

Or as suggested switch their b team to u20s. Would lock a lot more players in I suppose.

When you can set laws in your own jurisdiction but don't surely it's double standards?

Be interesting to see a list of players who have been capped at under 20 by one country but played test rugby elsewhere

I notice Scotland have just called up Luke Hamilton who was capped by Wales u20s, not sure how eligible he is but is it fair that players like him could be discarded by unions and never play at test level?

Gareth Steenson is in the international wilderness and has been capped at u20 and Ian McKinley too was capped by Ireland at u20 and looks set to play for Italy next month. Would it be fair on him to miss out?

Luke Hamilton has a Scottish dad

Yes but Wales u20 are their second team and this prevented Steven Shingler playing for Scotland

I was just answering how he is eligible

So if it's not fair to have u20s as your second side marty you'd agree with the rfu view that all this area needs to be looked at.

You need t play against another u 20s side that is deemed that countries 2nd team to rule yourself ineligible for anyone else.

I never said that, I said it wouldn't be fair on some players, I don't think there is a perfect solution out there

The likes of Hamilton and McKinley have been discarded by Wales and Ireland, should they be tied down at such a young age. Each case is different and that's what makes it so difficult but we have to find the right balance and not allow unions to tie a large pool of players down at a young age which can dilute the quality at the highest level

So it sounds like wr should do a bit of a review on this look at some of the practices and ensure suitable compensation between parties which allows.freedom for players and unions where everyone knows that costs will be recaptured when appropriate.

And the RFU want that but are not willing to begin the process themselves at home which they would do if they were serious on the matter

In what instance would they do that? And why does that need to occur for wr to start looking at the processes?

I really can't see why England are getting so worked up about this.

They have such a large playing pool and will take what they consider to be the best of them into the international fold. Why should others, who have been passed over and yet are still eligible for other countries, not get their chance for them.

A stronger international game benefits everyone and England and France are the giants, in terms of participation and finance of the world game. They should not really resent that a small amount of their investment trickles away. If it helps to improve the overall standard, then surely everyone will benefit.

I never said one needed to happen before the other, just that the RFU could deal with the matter in their own jurisdiction before complaining about others policing it in theirs

marty2086 wrote:

cascough wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

If the RFU were serious about then will they be introducing rules to make sure English clubs duly compensate others for the development of players?

I see this as a completely separate issue.

The RFU invest millions in the academy system. It's only going to produce 5 players a year that go on to have an international career. (would be interested if anyone has some actual figures on that). If the fruit of your labour/millions is only a handful of players, It seems perfectly understandable that should someone else reap the benefits of your millions then you would want to be compensated for that.

I'm unsure how that ties in with say Saracens taking a Gloucester academy player. The RFU funded the development of the player and the player's England career is unhampered by signing for Saracens. Therefore the RFU's investment is unaffected.

Its exactly the same issue, clubs spend millions as well.

RFU are asking World Rugby to govern the issue yet are unwilling to govern it in their own back yard, they could lead the way on the issue for World Rugby to follow but instead they stamp their feet like a stroppy teenager saying how unfair it is

It's not the same. The Academies (12 in the prem and 2 in the championship) are funded centrally and not by the clubs themselves.

There aren't any examples of this for England though marty.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There aren't any examples of this for England though marty.

Really? Freddie Burns

Isn't an example of this is it?

Burns was in Baths academy then switched to Gloucester's

Not even that but if you look at English football, players below a certain age who have spent a certain number of years in an academy. If they move out of contract the club that developed them is entitled to a fee set by tribunal if the two clubs can't agree one

marty2086 wrote: notice Scotland have just called up Luke Hamilton who was capped by Wales u20s, not sure how eligible he is but is it fair that players like him could be discarded by unions and never play at test level?

If he has played for the U20's against another nation who uses their U20's in the same way then he will not be eligible for Scotland.

So its not an example of this then. Bath and gloucester are both in England.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So its not an example of this then. Bath and gloucester are both in England.

It's an example of it happening in England and the RFU not policing it like they are saying WR aren't

Ld is wrong again. If a country has their u20s team as their second team they are only tied to that country of they play another country with the same rule. Last time I checked that was sa and France.

So how's does playing for gloucester stop burns from playing for bath...Given he did move back? Also a large slice of funding for academies comes from the rfu so again why would this impact them?

It's an example of it happening in England and the RFU not policing it like they are saying WR aren't

I thought that Academies were centrally funded and so - for an Englishman - it matters little which Academy he came through as the RFU stumped up the cash.

Or do I have this wrong?

Its not just being eligible, it's about being able to benefit from your investment of time and resources

If Burns had never moved back to Bath would that make it a more palatable example?

An example of what Im talking about

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40095005

TrailApe wrote:

It's an example of it happening in England and the RFU not policing it like they are saying WR aren't

I thought that Academies were centrally funded and so - for an Englishman - it matters little which Academy he came through as the RFU stumped up the cash.

Or do I have this wrong?

To the best of my knowledge (and the RFU website) you do not.

TrailApe wrote:

It's an example of it happening in England and the RFU not policing it like they are saying WR aren't

I thought that Academies were centrally funded and so - for an Englishman - it matters little which Academy he came through as the RFU stumped up the cash.

Or do I have this wrong?

Part of the funding comes from the RFU

Its not just academies though, there are steps before the academy too and after

Well, well, well, well. Dew, dew.

I know it's the WOL and a lot of people do not like it, but there are actual quotes in this one. The hypocrisy of it all.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-chiefs-hit-back-strongly-13800820

WRU chiefs hit back strongly at England's complaints over Wales poaching 'their' players
Union bosses point to the large number of talented Welsh youngsters being lured across the border

Welsh rugby chiefs have expressed disappointment at the RFU complaining about attempts by Wales to recruit players from England.

The RFU are to ask World Rugby for help in preventing Wales and other countries from targeting players at English club academies.


But the WRU have today questioned these comments.

They point to the large number of talented young Welsh players that are being lured across the border by free scholarships at English fee-paying schools and colleges - with 19 Welsh qualified players currently at one institution.

And they stress the vast majority of players they are targeting in England were actually born in Wales and, in many cases, developed here.

The contentious remarks from the RFU appeared in an article in the Times newspaper. They refer to other countries actively scouting players at English club academies and say they will be taking up the matter with World Rugby.

am just disappointed at the comments,” said WRU Head of Rugby Performance Geraint John.

“It could be seen as a little bit ironic that the RFU should be saying this about us. It works both ways.”

John says scouts from English clubs and colleges are regularly watching Welsh regional age-grade teams looking for gifted players.

“We ran a Super Series event at the Arms Park last season, where we had six regional U18s teams - one each from the Blues, Scarlets, Ospreys, Dragons, North Wales and Exiles,” he said.

“They were squads of 30, so that’s 180 players.

“You looked up in the stand and there were all these scouts from England there.

“They are watching our regional age-grade teams all the time.

“There are also teachers here that are linked with English clubs.”

Welsh youngsters are ending up at schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups.

“For example, there are 19 players at Hartpury who are eligible for Wales,” said John.

“Cardiff Blues lost seven players to them from their programme this year.

“English fee-paying schools and colleges are offering free scholarships to our players.

“When you are offered a £35,000-a year private education for free, it’s hard for kids and their parents to say no and we totally understand that.

“What happens is once players are in the English system, they get picked up by club academies, who often have links with the colleges.

“The RFU might argue it’s the colleges doing the initial recruitment not them, but they support the club academies which have links with the colleges.

“The big concern we have is some lads are being discouraged from playing age-grade rugby for Wales by their clubs.

“We hear about players being put under pressure to not come and play for us on the basis they might not get contracts in future if they do.

“There are examples of players having missed out on going to a Junior World Cup as a result - two players have missed out on playing in this competition and gaining a fantastic experience in the last two years.”

The RFU point to the investment clubs put into players at Academy level and the suggestion is compensation should be paid if Welsh-qualified youngsters are lured away by the WRU.

In the Times article, a RFU spokesman is quoted as saying: “We are aware that other nations actively scout English players in our academies.

“We are looking carefully at this, with the clubs who invest in developing these players for the good of English rugby, and we will be discussing this with World Rugby.”

One example given in the article is Lions back-rower Ross Moriarty who came through the Gloucester academy and played age-grade rugby for England before electing to follow in the footsteps of his father, Paul, and uncle, Richard, by representing Wales.

There has been much speculation that Moriarty will move from the Cherry and Whites to the Scarlets at the end of this season in order to remain eligible for Wales under the new 60-cap selection policy.

This, presumably, would be the kind of situation where the RFU might argue the case for compensation.

However, while Moriarty was part of the Gloucester Academy, his rugby education began at Gorseinon RFC and Morriston Comprehensive School in Swansea and he also played for the Ospreys at both U16s and U18s level.

In John’s view, the picture being laid out by the RFU is only half the story.

“They talk about wanting compensation for looking after players from 17 to 21,” he said.

“But what about what we do with them between 7 and 17? What about all the time and effort we put into them in Welsh rugby?

“They have recognised them at age of 16 or 17, but they have been recognised because they came through our club and schools system.

“Perhaps the compensation system should start at 7 not 17.”

John acknowledges the WRU are looking at players in England with a view to bringing them to the regions, but says it’s important to understand the context.

“Just about all of the ones we are targeting are born in Wales,” he said.

“In a lot of cases, they have been picked up by English rugby in their late teens. We just want them back.

“The RFU talk about the money that has been invested by the English system in developing these players, but many have been in our system originally.”

John points to the recent case of a Wales U16s player.

“He’s a Pencoed Comp boy, he’s come through our system,” he said.

“We did everything we could to keep him here.

“We invited him up to the Centre of Excellence when the Lions were there last summer.

“He did a kicking session with Neil Jenkins and Greig Laidlaw.

“But, at the end of the day, he still decided to leave.

“It’s hard for kids to turn down these scholarships.

“Our job is to make sure if they are away we keep monitoring them, supporting them, watching their games, linking with their teachers.

“We want to make sure they realise they are not forgotten, that we want them back, that they mean something to us and that we care, which is so important.”

Among the Welsh-born and raised youngsters currently on English club books are Bristol backs Matt Protheroe and Callum Sheedy, who attended Hartpury and Millfield respectively.

Swansea-born Protheroe, who has recently moved from Gloucester, has represented England at U18s and U20s level.

There’s also the case of scrum-half Harry Randall, who was born in Slough, but grew up in the Amman Valley and captained Wales U16 before switching allegiance to England, playing for their U20s, progressing through Hartpury and the Gloucester Academy.

In all, there are more than 90 Welsh qualified players in the top two flights of English rugby.

Among those playing in the Aviva Premiership are Bridgend-born Bath centre Max Clarke, Leicester's Pembrokeshire back rower Luke Hamilton, Newcastle lock Max Davies, Sale’s Llandudno-born back five forward George Nott, Worcester second row Huw Taylor, London Irish centre Johnny Williams, Gloucester flanker Lewis Ludlow and Cardiff-born Sale No 8 Sam Moore.

These comments in particular caught my eye:-

“We ran a Super Series event at the Arms Park last season, where we had six regional U18s teams - one each from the Blues, Scarlets, Ospreys, Dragons, North Wales and Exiles,” he said. “They were squads of 30, so that’s 180 players.

“You looked up in the stand and there were all these scouts from England there.

“They are watching our regional age-grade teams all the time. wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

TrailApe wrote:

It's an example of it happening in England and the RFU not policing it like they are saying WR aren't

I thought that Academies were centrally funded and so - for an Englishman - it matters little which Academy he came through as the RFU stumped up the cash.

Or do I have this wrong?

Part of the funding comes from the RFU

Its not just academies though, there are steps before the academy too and after

The academy bit is the only bit the RFU are complaining about, since that's the bit they've invested in.

I feel you're trying to make this into something else, when it's really all about money plain and simple.

The RFU invest millions in the academy system and are seeing their "return" being poached. They want to be suitably recompensed for that. Currently they would be recompensed 5000 for every year a player has spent in an RFU academy, up to a maximum of 7 years ie 35000. They clearly don't see that as an acceptable return on their investment (why would they?). If the RFU and therefore english rugby is to be successful, they'll need to make sure anything that costs them a lot of money yields appropriate rewards. That's just sensible.

cascough wrote:The RFU invest millions in the academy system and are seeing their "return" being poached

Well perhaps they should stay out of other countries in the first place and stop fluttering £££'s to young kids to go to their academies.

cascough wrote:They want to be suitably recompensed for that. Currently they would be recompensed 5000 for every year a player has spent in an RFU academy, up to a maximum of 7 years ie 35000.

Well they should then compensate for the effort put in prior to these players leaving Wales to go to the funded scholarship academies in England.

cascough wrote: If the RFU and therefore english rugby is to be successful, they'll need to make sure anything that costs them a lot of money yields appropriate rewards. That's just sensible.

Then just stop sending scouts to other countries.

LordDowlais wrote:These comments in particular caught my eye:-

Perhaps they want to compare development of English and Welsh academy players?

Watching a match is hardly a crime.

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:These comments in particular caught my eye:-

Perhaps they want to compare development of English and Welsh academy players?

Watching a match is hardly a crime.

So they are there for the love of the game now are they ?

OMG, I have heard it all now.

LordDowlais wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:These comments in particular caught my eye:-

Perhaps they want to compare development of English and Welsh academy players?

Watching a match is hardly a crime.

So they are there for the love of the game now are they ?

OMG, I have heard it all now.

I mean maybe they are searching for the sort of talent that took Wales to 5th in the 6 Nations, but probably not.

So why do you think they are there then ? Why are all these English scouts at a session where all the Welsh 18's players are ? Come on, I am intrigued to why you think they were there. This should be good.

LordDowlais wrote:So why do you think they are there then ? Why are all these English scouts at a session where all the Welsh 18's players are ? Come on, I am intrigued to why you think they were there. This should be good.

"Perhaps they want to compare development of English and Welsh academy players?"

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:So why do you think they are there then ? Why are all these English scouts at a session where all the Welsh 18's players are ? Come on, I am intrigued to why you think they were there. This should be good.

"Perhaps they want to compare development of English and Welsh academy players?"

Like I said, I have heard it all now.

You do realise that it is up to the coaches to develop players not scouts don't you ?

This is hilarious.

LordDowlais wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:So why do you think they are there then ? Why are all these English scouts at a session where all the Welsh 18's players are ? Come on, I am intrigued to why you think they were there. This should be good.

"Perhaps they want to compare development of English and Welsh academy players?"

Like I said, I have heard it all now.

You do realise that it is up to the coaches to develop players not scouts don't you ?

This is hilarious.

Coaches develop, but scouts assess. I didn't say they were going there to develop players.

You're short of words when not copy pasting from WOL eh.

LordDowlais wrote:

cascough wrote:The RFU invest millions in the academy system and are seeing their "return" being poached

Well perhaps they should stay out of other countries in the first place and stop fluttering £££'s to young kids to go to their academies.

cascough wrote:They want to be suitably recompensed for that. Currently they would be recompensed 5000 for every year a player has spent in an RFU academy, up to a maximum of 7 years ie 35000.  

Well they should then compensate for the effort put in prior to these players leaving Wales to go to the funded scholarship academies in England.

cascough wrote: If the RFU and therefore english rugby is to be successful, they'll need to make sure anything that costs them a lot of money yields appropriate rewards. That's just sensible.

Then just stop sending scouts to other countries.

Point 1...I assume this is a wind up? Surely you see the irony of this statement?

Point 2...Stop saying effort. It's about money. Have the WRU put in money into developing a player, ie funded an academy, that was then taken away from them. If so, I agree. They would have the same grounds for complaint as the RFU do now, and should do something about it, as the RFU are now. If the WRU have a complaint, it doesn't make the RFU's any less legitimate.

Point 3...See point 1.

It's interesting how this thread has degenerated into a parochial Eng vs Wales debate. I just don't see it like that. It's a business trying to protect their investment (from all comers), which is just common sense.

Personally I feel that, as is so often the case, teh RFU have a valid point but see their case presented very badly. This is both by themselves (their PR is shocking) and by people in the (mainly) online media with an agenda who willfully misrepresent things.

This announcement originally appeared to come about in response to the SRU announcement that they were to appoint full time scouts with a brief to scour the English system for any players with Scottish heritage. It should also be noted that earlier this ear the WRU announced a series of training camps across England designed to find talented players with Welsh heritage.

With a much larger player base, and bigger (more professional?) development system - it is no surprise that Wales and Scotland would look to see what talent they can cherry pick. Equally it should be no surprise that a multi million pound business seeks to protect it's investment.

Despite the colour of the kit, the RFU and English Rugby are far from whiter than white. The whole system is indeed rather hypocritical at times. Does not mean that it is always wrong though.

cascough wrote:It's interesting how this thread has degenerated into a parochial Eng vs Wales debate. I just don't see it like that. It's a business trying to protect their investment (from all comers), which is just common sense.

If that's the case then, English clubs should stop sending their scouts to Wales to pick up players. The RFU need to stop that, then they will not be in this position.

Perhaps the RFU do not need to go crying to World Rugby, perhaps they should get their own house in order first.