England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

I missed the Chiefs game on the weekend - did Slade have a good one?
Seems like he is starting to focus on 13 - I do wonder if that is a directive from RFU.
12 is quite well stocked with Teo and hybrid 12's in Farrell, Lozowski.
After Saints demolition - Is Piers Francis still in the mix for some people?
Joseph I am sure will come back into the mix.

MichaelT wrote:Experience counts for a lot more than people acknowledge for me. I'd much rather have a squad of 30 experienced players than pick from 200 great athletes to make a team.

But we can pick 29 experienced players and drop the guy with 70 caps who is now much worse in his position than another guy.

I take back what I said about Underhill before, the lad is a beast and he will be frightening in a couple of years time. Thought that Mercer played intelligently too tonight. He doesn't have the bulk but he is intelligent and he has the footwork to get himself out of trouble. I reckon he will be an excellent international in the coming years.

I think Mercer is FEC material

Genge just put in as good a performance for a prop that I can remember.

Cumbrian wrote:I take back what I said about Underhill before, the lad is a beast and he will be frightening in a couple of years time.  Thought that Mercer played intelligently too tonight.  He doesn't have the bulk but he is intelligent and he has the footwork to get himself out of trouble.  I reckon he will be an excellent international in the coming years.

I tend to agree, he certainly has the raw potential, he just needs some tweaks. Mentioned it a while back, he reminds me very much of Pocock when he burst on the scene.

I can see the Pocock comparison, he seems to have that low centre of gravity that makes him immovable once he gets into position. I am really looking forward to seeing how he goes next month.

Tha performance by Genge last name night was scary. He is full of menace and carries in a way that I thought Marler was going to (that was marked out Marler at age grade). Genge seems far more durable than our other props, you couldn't mark him with a pick axe! He also has an amazing engine, I could easily see him going for a full 80 minutes. If he can keep his attitude in check like he did last night he will be some prospect.

Agree Cumbrian, I can see him leapfrogging Marler very soon.

The big change in Marler's carrying came when he decided to become an international class scrummager. The charging runs dropped off about the same time he became a loosehead who could control a scrum rather than just survive one.

Mako still has the carrying ability but is a much less capable scrummager at the very top level.

From what I can see, it's very hard to be both; it looks like props have to focus their training on one or the other. My prediction would be that Genge will have to decide whose slot in the squad he is going after, and he will develop differently depending on whether he wants to be known as a scrummaging prop or a carrier.

Well Johnny May is making one wing spot his own with his performances this season...

Scottrf wrote:

MichaelT wrote:Experience counts for a lot more than people acknowledge for me. I'd much rather have a squad of 30 experienced players than pick from 200 great athletes to make a team.

But we can pick 29 experienced players and drop the guy with 70 caps who is now much worse in his position than another guy.

Experience as a team rather than as an individual I'd see as more important. 1chap with 150 cpas playing with 14 hes never met before will be less effective than 15 whove played 10 consecutive games as unit.
Jones was very fortunate up till the Argentina tour to be able to pick a pretty consistent squad through both a relatively low number of injuries and good results. The lions has forced him to look a lot wider, but rather than going for the ready made premiership journeymen that Johnsion wouldve turned to hes gambled on ineperienced fringe players he thought had the potential to make a big difference long term.
With mounting injuries and players need post lions rests plus inevitable shifts in form theres going to be some forced or organic changes to the side that will see a significantly different unit of players than we a year ago. Chucking out more of the benefits of a consistent team development just to give a few kids " a go" in the hope of developing injury reserves seems a bit daft to me. If players are coming in it should be with an aim of improving the first 15/23 short and long term....not sacrificng the teams development to make sure theres a bunch of players with 5 caps who will probably have lost form in two years.

Very well put.

Eddie names his squad on Thursday I understand, and all of a sudden some problems brewing up:

Front row - Ban for Sinckler, potential citings for Marler and Hartley, ankle scan for Genge. Could all mean that Mako is unable to be given the planned rest.
Second Row - Lawes and Itoje in need of a rest (should be noted both are playing at 6 in the main this season) but some decent depth of talent.
Back Row - Billy V injured, Hughes facing a potential citing.
Centres - Te'o injured, JJ & Daly off form.
Wings - Nowell injured, Watson limping in most games, Daly off form, Yarde suspended by club.
Full Back - Brown off form, Watson see above.


It will be interesting to see what Jones does. Squad will still be strong, but very hard to predict.

Eddie names his squad on Thursday I understand, and all of a sudden some problems brewing up:

Front row - Ban for Sinckler, potential citings for Marler and Hartley, ankle scan for Genge. Could all mean that Mako is unable to be given the planned rest.

This is the biggest area of concern if all these come about. Williams, Collier etc come in to contention for TH. Have they been playing much for their clubs?
LH would be an even bigger issue!

Second Row - Lawes and Itoje in need of a rest (should be noted both are playing at 6 in the main this season) but some decent depth of talent.

Second row is not an issue. We have bucket loads of quality locks. Hell I would even back our lads Robinson, Green and Witty to do an excellent job if the crisis became that serious! Cue laughs from Beshocked!  

Back Row - Billy V injured, Hughes facing a potential citing.

Hhmm, 8 could be an issue. Haskell to 8 is a possibility. Mark Wilson has played there often for the Falcons, so is an emergency option. Is Mercer ready..? He's a different type of 8 to the bludgeoning Polynesians.

Centres - Te'o injured, JJ & Daly off form.

Daly isn't considered a centre anyway so no issue. JJ has been a mainstay. I suspect Slade could get that position. He's been in fantastic form for Exeter there...and additional playmaker will do Jones just nicely. Also is Marchant fit...he'll come in to contention.

Wings - Nowell injured, Watson limping in most games, Daly off form, Yarde suspended by club.

May already has one wing sown up. Maybe Wade might get a look in, Marcus Watson is a top class winger (he was when we had him anyway) so may get a look. Lewington? Whos the young winger at Saints playing out of his skin.
What about Olly Woodman?

Full Back - Brown off form, Watson see above.

Brown might be off form but with Watson injured or not in great shape...he will keep his spot.

It will be interesting to see what Jones does. Squad will still be strong, but very hard to predict.

Solomona gf.
Simmonds and even morgan at a push could play 8.
Mullan at loose head and Cooper wooley could come into contention.

Josh Lewsey had six caps when he was called into Woodward's 2003 Six Nations side.

He had three from the 1998 Tour of Hell, and another three from the 2001 North America tour when the main England players with with the Lions. For all intents and purposes, he had no match experience with the main squad until a few months before the World Cup.

When you consider Jason Robinson only began his rugby union career in 2001, two years out from the tournament, then we actually settled on our back three quite late in the day.

I always felt Lancaster was constrained by the total cap target when it came to selection. Injuries forced some changes on him but he was more likely to stick than twist. That's why the Burgess decision seemed so out of character.

Still, he gave George Ford his first cap in the 2014 Six Nations off the bench, and his first start in the 2014 Autumn internationals. No-one thought it controversial when he made the 2015 World Cup squad. From a timing perspective, that's the same as if Eddie Jones gives someone a debut in this season's Six Nations

Australia have been ringing the changes. The man of the match at the weekend was Jack Dempsey, who just got his first start (and 4th cap) three weeks ago, against South Africa. Elswehere, Malcolm Marx and Damien McKenzie both got their first starts this season.

In an ideal world you want to settle on a squad early, and tinker as little as possible. Inevitably though, your best players don't turn up at the same points in a four year cycle. It's probably more important that a squad has a uniformity of purpose so new players can find their feet quickly, Still you probably don't want to be handing out Test match debuts in the World Cup Final, as Franec did with Jean-Marc Doussain.

Wade has looked well off the pace from what I've seen of him this season, much like Wasps tbh.

Sorry i forgot Solomona at wing...yes him and May look odds on!

Simmonds just looks so small to me, to be an international 8.

I kind of agree. He looks like a 6 in the making but we're running out of options. I would prefer him playing with underhill and a steadying hand of Robshaw rather than turn back to Waldrom.

What are the options at 8 if we potentially have no Hughes or Billy.

Haskell
Mercer
Simmonds
Waldrom
Morgan
Beaumont
Wilson
Harrison

Depending on Ben Morgans form and fitness...you'd probably say its between Haskell and Simmonds. But then again Eddie being Eddie might drop young Mercer in to the fold. He was outstanding for the U20's!

What kind of form is Haley in? And when do we start a new thread? (This one looks full)

EJ will bypass club form if he thinks players look OK in training. Solomona/May looks scary in attack, but Solomona's defense will always be a worry.

GeordieFalcon wrote:What are the options at 8 if we potentially have no Hughes or Billy.

Haskell
Mercer
Simmonds
Waldrom
Morgan
Beaumont
Wilson
Harrison

Depending on Ben Morgans form and fitness...you'd probably say its between Haskell and Simmonds. But then again Eddie being Eddie might drop young Mercer in to the fold. He was outstanding for the U20's!

I am a huge fan of Mercer's efforts at U20 but he will never make the hard yards that BV/Hughes can. Morgan would have to be the closest like for like but there must be so many questions over his form and ability at international level these days given he hasn't had a look in under EJ. If it is Mercer (and that would be a very gutsy decision) we would have to rethink a lot of how we play. Might open the door for Genge (if he's fit) as we would need heavy weight carriers in their somewhere

GeordieFalcon wrote:What are the options at 8 if we potentially have no Hughes or Billy.

Haskell
Mercer
Simmonds
Waldrom
Morgan
Beaumont
Wilson
Harrison

Beaumont is out for three months, with a bicep tear,

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:What are the options at 8 if we potentially have no Hughes or Billy.

Haskell
Mercer
Simmonds
Waldrom
Morgan
Beaumont
Wilson
Harrison

Beaumont is out for three months, with a bicep tear,

The list gets short quickly. Harrison is very much a makeshift 8 who doesn't have a good reputation at int. lvl. Waldrom is an old man who can't get past Simmonds, who in turn is small for an 8 and unproven!.

Haskell who knows? Definitely could do a job but not convinced he should be there if there is an alternative. Wilson is a 6 but from what has been seen is utterly reliable. The question is what we would gain with 2 versions of Robshaw on the pitch at the same time.

Jackson Wray should probably be thrown into the mix.

He'd be 3rd in line for guys who could do a job short term for me after waldrom and Morgan. I'd be erring towards the guys who could gave great england careers in simmonds or mercer. If there was enough experience around them. Haskell is meh and a good bench cover option.

Can we all agree Tom Wood shouldn't be in the mix for eight?

What about the universal answer to all rugby related questions. Itoje

I hate saying it, but I also think Simmonds is just too small to play no.8 at international level. I think he would be a great utility back-row but I just struggle to see him making the hard yards at international level that somebody like Hughes or Vunipola does. Hope he proves me wrong.

Rugby Fan wrote:Can we all agree Tom Wood shouldn't be in the mix for eight?

I'd be mildly surprised to see Tom Wood pull an England shirt of any number on again.

Not Tom Wood.....ever.
Shame for Clifford 'injured again' at a time when he could have staked a claim.
I agree with the above about Mercer. Same can be said about the Currys - they are doing well at the senior game - but not sure that any of them are ready to be starting in the Nov tests.
Haskell isn't in great form at the moment either!
There is a chance that Hughes wont get a long ban if any! Morgan looked pretty good for Gloucester recently all be it at Challenge cup level.
Simmonds does seem to be the likely candidate to come into the EPS. Despite reservations about size (Sean O'Brein isn't the biggest chap and yet carries like a dump truck).
Another name from Chiefs - Don Armond could come in and do a job.

propdavid_london wrote:Not Tom Wood.....ever.
Shame for Clifford 'injured again' at a time when he could have staked a claim.
I agree with the above about Mercer.  Same can be said about the Currys - they are doing well at the senior game - but not sure that any of them are ready to be starting in the Nov tests.
Haskell isn't in great form at the moment either!
There is a chance that Hughes wont get a long ban if any! Morgan looked pretty good for Gloucester recently all be it at Challenge cup level.
Simmonds does seem to be the likely candidate to come into the EPS. Despite reservations about size (Sean O'Brein isn't the biggest chap and yet carries like a dump truck).  
Another name from Chiefs - Don Armond could come in and do a job.  

Good point- and he has been in training squads before now.

propdavid_london wrote:Not Tom Wood.....ever.
Shame for Clifford 'injured again' at a time when he could have staked a claim.
I agree with the above about Mercer.  Same can be said about the Currys - they are doing well at the senior game - but not sure that any of them are ready to be starting in the Nov tests.
Haskell isn't in great form at the moment either!
There is a chance that Hughes wont get a long ban if any! Morgan looked pretty good for Gloucester recently all be it at Challenge cup level.
Simmonds does seem to be the likely candidate to come into the EPS. Despite reservations about size (Sean O'Brein isn't the biggest chap and yet carries like a dump truck).  
Another name from Chiefs - Don Armond could come in and do a job.  

Yes but SOB is looks as wide as he is tall. Simmonds looks like James Simpson Daniel.

Don Armand wore 8 at Welford Road earlier this season, however it was Salvi (and then Kvesic) who actually packed down at the base of the scrum.

David Flatman says:

6 - Lawes
7 - Robshaw
8 - Hughes

I do hope that Flats isn't right.
Lawes is fine covering - but starting at 6 is a whole different dimension.

propdavid_london wrote:I do hope that Flats isn't right.
Lawes is fine covering - but starting at 6 is a whole different dimension.

Started at 6 most of the season.

Not internationally

Do the locks playing flanker have anything to do with the law changes...or simply that they are mobile and top players.

Good point GF - there must be something to do with it. More teams are doing it now than before - off the top of my head its
Itoje - Sarries
Lawes - Saints
Beaumont - Sale
Slater - I am sure had a couple of appearances in back row for Tigers
Ben Glyn for Quins has started a few games as back row
Gaskell for wasps was that sort of utility player.

I hope Lawes doesnt play 6, he's proven he's not good enough there.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do the locks playing flanker have anything to do with the law changes...or simply that they are mobile and top players.

I've heard it argued that the breakdown is less suited now to the fetcher, while there's more scope to score from lineouts.

Lawes and Itoje are both wearing 6 for their clubs at the moment, and kind of shared those duties in the 6Ns. However I woudl want them to only be considered for England in the second row, and should be rested for the bulk of the AIs anyway.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I hope Lawes doesnt play 6, he's proven he's not good enough there.

Rule changes and the fact that he's on the up form wise could make it work but it's not ideal.

Why not 7 Underhill 8 Robshaw 6 AN other? Could even go 7 Curry 6 Underhill 8 Robshaw.

propdavid_london wrote:Good point GF - there must be something to do with it.  More teams are doing it now than before - off the top of my head its
Itoje - Sarries
Lawes - Saints
Beaumont - Sale
Slater - I am sure had a couple of appearances in back row for Tigers
Ben Glyn for Quins has started a few games as back row
Gaskell for wasps was that sort of utility player.

Glynn's been starting at 6 for Quins mainly out of desperation - Wallace, Chisholm and Clifford are all injured and the back row cupboard is looking pretty bare for Quins at the moment.

One big question has to be: with so many injuries hitting the back row, have the law changes had a part to play in that? I think they might have done, because the need for the tackler to get back onside may mean that the attacking players have a chance to hit the ruck harder.

Hartley Marler and Hughes cited.

Lawes was picked by Lancaster for England at 6, he has come a long way since then. He always had the engine, now he still makes the big hits, but also is more circumspect in charging out to make them. He is a superb cover tackler and is probably one of the best ball carriers around at the moment for England, Lions or Saints. Launchbury and Lawes/Itoje 5 & 6 is a very good mix but what of Robshaw, not an 8 and not the best at 7. If everybody was on form, Launchbury, Lawes/Itoje, Underhill/Haskell and BV/Hughes would put the whatsist up most defences. Massive carrying and tackling ability and not lacking in skills either.

Last year we had Lawes and/or Itoje at 6 and it resulted in one decent win, several ropey wins, and a loss. I just don't get the obsession with trying to play locks at 6. It's feasible at club level, and you can get away with it against most opposition but I have yet to see anything that makes me think it will work against the very best teams.

To my mind, it's due to the speed of the game at international level. Players need to get into position much faster, which either means they have to be very agile, or they have to have a really strong positional instinct. Some locks can get up a decent speed in a straight line, but their height and physique gives them a disadvantage in positional mobility, and the positional instincts they have are for what a lock needs to do and not what a flanker needs to do.

If a lock-type player specialised at playing 6 internationally for an extended period, that could change. The question is, is Eddie prepared to commit to that in the games he has available? I am not at all convinced.

Hartley cited again, this has to be the end of him now surely, what a donut.

Gwlad wrote:Hartley cited again, this has to be the end of him now surely, what a donut.

Except commentators and analysts didn't even think it should be a yellow. I'd  suggest you're the 'donut'.