England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

I missed the Chiefs game on the weekend - did Slade have a good one?
Seems like he is starting to focus on 13 - I do wonder if that is a directive from RFU.
12 is quite well stocked with Teo and hybrid 12's in Farrell, Lozowski.
After Saints demolition - Is Piers Francis still in the mix for some people?
Joseph I am sure will come back into the mix.

To be fair Robshaw would add very little from the bench, he hardly screams out "impact"

Sgt_Pooly wrote:To be fair Robshaw would add very little from the bench, he hardly screams out "impact"

Now that I think both Robshaw's biggest fans and major detractors would agree with - what he offers is a great engine and doing the dirty work, not the flashier things that perhaps you want from a back row forward as the game opens up.

I'd be interested to know how many times he's been replaced during a game - my perception is that he's one of the normal 80 minute players and it would be the 8 that gets subbed more often.

Honestly can't remember him being subbed. We don't usually have cover for his position either so if anyone is coming off the bench it's usually the no8.

And as mentioned Robshaw has the tank to play all game comfortably and the nouse to help close out a game when it gets tight.

Jones substituted Robshaw in the 2nd and 3rd Tests in Australia last year. In the 2nd, Robshaw, Haskell and Hartley all came off in the 71st minute for Clifford, Launchbury and George. In the 3rd Test, he went off at the 53rd minute with Ben Youngs for Clifford and Care.

Somehow, I'd forgotten Clifford was on that tour.

Rugby Fan wrote:

BamBam wrote:...Luckily there isn't a Saracens contender for his shirt, otherwise Robshaw would have achieved national treasure deity status by now

Fun fact: Robshaw has never started an England match on the bench. When selected, he has always been in the first XV (59 times, currently). Wonder whether there is any other Test player with over 50 caps who has never been a squad substitute. [EDIT: Yes - Will Carling was 73/73; Peter Winterbottom 65/65]

Still, BOD's record of 140 starts out of 141 caps is quite something. That solitary bench start was his sixth Ireland cap

Rory Underwood 91/91 - of course when he started replacements were for injury only.

LondonTiger wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

BamBam wrote:...Luckily there isn't a Saracens contender for his shirt, otherwise Robshaw would have achieved national treasure deity status by now

Fun fact: Robshaw has never started an England match on the bench. When selected, he has always been in the first XV (59 times, currently). Wonder whether there is any other Test player with over 50 caps who has never been a squad substitute. [EDIT: Yes - Will Carling was 73/73; Peter Winterbottom 65/65]

Still, BOD's record of 140 starts out of 141 caps is quite something. That solitary bench start was his sixth Ireland cap

Rory Underwood 91/91 - of course when he started replacements were for injury only.

Actually it seems tactical subs were only permitted in 96, after Rory retired.


George Gregan's 139-133-6 in a position where replacements are usually made and where the bulk of his career was post replacement changes is impressive.


Anyway back to the current England squad:

Will Eddie go all guns blazing for the opening game in Rome?

With not much more than 8 weeks to go will the current wounded be fit (Billy, Itoje, Te'o)?
With plenty of big club matches to be played - who would be the worst player to go down with a new knock?

I hope Billy is fit.

Interesting chat on the Scottish thread. One of the guys stated that he sees all of the Scottish backs as better than the English backs. Looking at it from our side, there's only Hogg I can see that would be an improvement on what we have. How are others seeing this?

Responded on that thread. Despite being unsure who our first choice 13 is, I would only take just Hogg to make our team better.

Our wingers (perm any 2 from 4) would make their side clearly better. I believe that as a pair, our half-backs are an upgrade - but perhaps a slightly different style.

I'd agree Russell is more flashy/mercurial but he doesn't do the basics anywhere near as good as Ford. Ford's kicking form hand is possibly the best I've seen from an English 10, possibly NH 10. He makes it look so easy, I think we underestimate how good he is.

Scottish centres are good but better than our options?

Agree on the wingers though without a shadow of a doubt, the Scottish options are pretty average. Hogg is some player though, I'd happily trade them Brown and Robshaw for him.

dummy_half wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:To be fair Robshaw would add very little from the bench, he hardly screams out "impact"

Now that I think both Robshaw's biggest fans and major detractors would agree with - what he offers is a great engine and doing the dirty work, not the flashier things that perhaps you want from a back row forward as the game opens up.

I certainly fall into the "biggest fan" category. In stark contrast to Sgt Pooly I'd have Robshaw down as one of the best flankers in the world. I'd probably put Pocock and Kaino as the best flankers in the world then after that for me there's a group containing the likes of Warburton, Cane, O'Brien that although I wouldn't swap Robshaw for, I could understand why others would. I reckon Robshaw is comfortably better than the likes of Hooper, Savea, O'Mahoney etc and I wouldn't have Moriarty or Tipuric lacing Robshaw's boots.

That being said, I'm not convinced I do agree that Robshaw would add very little from the bench. I just don't think it's as simple as this guy is better at running or carrying, so he can make a bigger impact from the bench. In some games, those qualities would be very useful, in others not so much. Looking at the Wales SA game at the weekend, Jantjies came on with 10 mins to go with SA trailing by 2 points. The common logic says that of Jantjies and Pollard, Jantjies has the skill set to make an impact of the bench. Thing is though, IMO it wasn't Jantjies skillset that was required, it was Pollards. It was a mistake ridden performance from both teams, and in a match where SA had clawed their way back into it from being extremely direct and powerful, to throw Jantjies into a tight, tense game like that was a mistake. And at a time when SA needed to execute basics for 10 mins and take the chance that their physical dominance would probably have provided, Jantjies only contribution was to knock on twice and kill any momentum, field position and possession SA had.

In the past I've advocated Jamie George as a finisher (or at least said that I can understand why Eddie does), but that works because Jamie George's basics are rock solid. If it's a tight game when he comes on, no problem, he's good at that. If it's breaking up and getting lose, no problem, he's good at that. Where Chris Robshaw is concerned, I think there is always a place for a player coming off the bench who does the right thing at the right time. Think of Robshaw's qualities. He's seemingly first to every lose ball, so if the game IS loose, think how much he would kill the oppositions momentum. He will slow opposition ball down at a breakdown, again hugely frustrating. His hands and passing are great (relative to other flankers), tell me that's not a useful quality off the bench. He doesn't ship on crappy ball so he's good for any teams attack. Although he's not a hugely destructive carrier his carrying is good enough that he will maintain possession and set a good platform to play off. He's not fast, but are we really reducing bench impact to whether or not a player is fast? If you are a particularly one dimensional player, ie clearly very good at one thing but perhaps lacking in other areas then I agree that in SOME games, you'd be better placed to finish. But put simply, I think finishing is not much different to starting in the sense that if you want to affect the game, you just have to be good. Good is not always eye catching.

"The common logic says that of Jantjies and Pollard, Jantjies has the skill set to make an impact of the bench"

You're forgetting the point that Jantjes is awful.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd agree Russell is more flashy/mercurial but he doesn't do the basics anywhere near as good as Ford. Ford's kicking form hand is possibly the best I've seen from an English 10, possibly NH 10. He makes it look so easy, I think we underestimate how good he is.

Scottish centres are good but better than our options?

Agree on the wingers though without a shadow of a doubt, the Scottish options are pretty average. Hogg is some player though, I'd happily trade them Brown and Robshaw for him.

No. Not by a long way.

Jones has had a fine start to his test career when looking at attack. It's not entirely uncommon for exciting players to have a good strike rate at the start of their careers then get figured out a bit. With such a small sample size, it's difficult to know whether Jones' strike rate is indicative of how good he really is, but he's an exciting prospect for sure. Also he's been exploited a fair bit in defence. Let's talk again when he's rounded out his game. Joseph on the other hand is the full package. He has an impressive strike rate himself (17 in 35) but his defence is excellent too.

To compare Dunbar to Farrell as individuals is laughable in my eyes. They are planets apart.

That being said, If you are talking about the backline as an entity, then Dunbar is very important to what Scotland do. Perhaps there's more of a case to say the backline is better than ours, but that's more indicative of a system and coaching. I wouldn't swap any or all of Scotland's backline for England's at the moment.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"The common logic says that of Jantjies and Pollard, Jantjies has the skill set to make an impact of the bench"

You're forgetting the point that Jantjes is awful.

He is, I agree. And that really is my point. Being effective off the bench isn't about having eye catching qualities (Jantjies is a good runner and looks to play flat to the line and take his man on) it's about being good. If you're good, you'll make an impact. It just might not be an eye catching one. Robshaw, IMO is good, and will affect the game positively if he comes off the bench.

All kind of moot though as no one is playing well enough to merit starting selection abov Robshaw, let alone the bench spot. He comfortably runs 80 minutes and very, very rarely breaks.

He played like a man possessed against Sarries. If there's been a better flanker's performance this year, I haven't seen it. Absolutely zero chance of him not starting the 6n if fit.

Changing tack, did anyone else pick up on Luke CD's game at the weekend, was it his first game back?
I was impressed and it struck me that he was the man for England and not just as a 3rd choice but someone who can challenge for the starting shirt.
For all the debate about Hartley and his shadow, neither hit the heights like others internationally do, or have done.
Very blessed we are but can we challenge the best?

Come on MG, we all know unproven guys like Mercer etc are obviously way better...

... Until they stop being flavour of the month that is

Good to hear LCD had a good game, unfortunately last time he was class for Exeter he was terrible on debut. If he can stay injury free he'll surely get a chance but he will need to play a lot better then last time.

Hartley is very solid and under rated around the park, George still isn't bringing his club form to England duty yet.

Genge looks to be out for the 6ns. Shoulder op.

Thought LCD was quite solid last time. His debut lineout was a nightmare but looks increasingly solid.

Eddie Jones had a lucky run with injuries through to the end of last year's summer tour. The only player he couldn't call on was Tuilagi. Seems England are experiencing a more normal rate of attrition again. Shame for Genge.

"England are to have unprecedented financial support in their efforts to win the 2019 Rugby World Cup. The Rugby Football Union has told Eddie Jones, the head coach, it will spend what it takes to ensure his campaign is successful.

A record war chest of more than £120 million (NZ$233.5m) is to be invested in the professional game over the next two years and the RFU has given the green light to the "detailed and comprehensive plans" of Jones for the build-up to the tournament in Japan.

Expenditure on professional rugby in England soared last year by over 50 per cent to a record £63.7 million ($124 million). Investment going into the 2015 World Cup was £44.3 million ($86.2 million).

Spending in the elite game is likely to rise even further over the next two years, with an average total of £56 million ($109 million) already committed to the professional game agreement with the clubs – over double the figure in the two years leading into the 2015 World Cup."

The cup is ours boys

yappysnap wrote:Good to hear LCD had a good game, unfortunately last time he was class for Exeter he was terrible on debut. If he can stay injury free he'll surely get a chance but he will need to play a lot better then last time.

Hartley is very solid and under rated around the park, George still isn't bringing his club form to England duty yet.

And whats the news on Taylor? Is he back yet?

yappysnap wrote:"England are to have unprecedented financial support in their efforts to win the 2019 Rugby World Cup. The Rugby Football Union has told Eddie Jones, the head coach, it will spend what it takes to ensure his campaign is successful.

A record war chest of more than £120 million (NZ$233.5m) is to be invested in the professional game over the next two years and the RFU has given the green light to the "detailed and comprehensive plans" of Jones for the build-up to the tournament in Japan.

Expenditure on professional rugby in England soared last year by over 50 per cent to a record £63.7 million ($124 million). Investment going into the 2015 World Cup was £44.3 million ($86.2 million).

Spending in the elite game is likely to rise even further over the next two years, with an average total of £56 million ($109 million) already committed to the professional game agreement with the clubs – over double the figure in the two years leading into the 2015 World Cup."

The cup is ours boys

Money helps but its still 15 vs 15 out on the pitch, as our Celtic brethren are always all too keen to remind us. (As we should also remember when playing the All Blacks)

Going down like flies in a Raid spray, first Itoje and Genge and now Roko out for England, Warbs again for Wales and Nel for Scotland and still eight weeks to go

BamBam wrote:Robshaw is still streets ahead of any other contender at 6. Happy to see him challenged, but its not likely this 6N

Luckily there isn't a Saracens contender for his shirt, otherwise Robshaw would have achieved national treasure deity status by now

Not at all.

Robshaw is the best in a position where England lack strength in depth. He's been consistent. There have been no 6s who have been performing better than him to warrant selection.

As for Saracens losing streak, I think there must be things happening behind the scenes, I have my own theory about who could likely be at the heart of that.... the player who the club love above the fans, the other players and the coaches.... of course I could well be wrong....

Poorly performing sides in the ERCC is not good for England.

Damn jamie george.

Perhaps it should be Saint Hartley (he is after al a deity) and LCD after his performance last game in the 23

Loving the fact that everyone still debating Robshaw, reckon they will for years after he retires, just shows what a complete lack of stand out qualities he has. The Mr Average in every respect.

I really don't get the debate on Robshaw he's a top class player! He puts a relentless quality shift in every game!

England's problem will be replacing him when the unbreakable ages a bit more and starts breaking.

As of yet there's no-one  fit to lace his boots!! Young pretenders...But that's all they are at the moment.

As for Itoje out..that's a blow in my opinion. He is genuine class! But we do have good locks. Hopefully Kruis can find some form As Well.

Good to hear LCD had a good game but one game means nothing. He needs a really good strong run now to the 6n!

beshocked wrote:

BamBam wrote:Robshaw is still streets ahead of any other contender at 6. Happy to see him challenged, but its not likely this 6N

Luckily there isn't a Saracens contender for his shirt, otherwise Robshaw would have achieved national treasure deity status by now

Not at all.

Robshaw is the best in a position where England lack strength in depth. He's been consistent. There have been no 6s who have been performing better than him to warrant selection.

As for Saracens losing streak, I think there must be things happening behind the scenes, I have my own theory about who could likely be at the heart of that.... the player who the club love above the fans, the other players and the coaches.... of course I could well be wrong....

Poorly performing sides in the ERCC is not good for England.

If it's just a theory, then it should be no problem for you to name who you think is to blame. Who do you think is at the heart of it?

Owen Farrell didn't give him an autograph once, probably him

Yup. Real dislike for both him and his dad which goes so far as to not acknowledging that for all.his flaws his dad is quite a good coach. Won't say why though hence the autograph thing is probably.spot on!I do hope LCD can maintain his fitness.until 6ns as that will properly mix up the debate around hartley vs george and how the squad as a whole works.

Almost certainly Faz the Younger is the target of the theory.

I thought that. But I've heard nothing but effusive praise from other Saracens players regarding Faz. I wondered if it might be Billy. I can see how he could be quite a disruptive influence on a team. I'm sure beshocked will be along shortly to clear up.

cascough wrote:I thought that. But I've heard nothing but effusive praise from other Saracens players regarding Faz. I wondered if it might be Billy. I can see how he could be quite a disruptive influence on a team. I'm sure beshocked will be along shortly to clear up.

You are right Billy could be part of it but as he's injured I doubt his influence on the squad is that big.

As I say - it's just my own theory. Could well be completely wrong but something surely has be going on behind the scenes?

If there is a player who has been stirring things up it's likely the one I suspect. Especially when you look at the circumstances - rested by England, notably frustated, poor performances, emotional and passionate personality... etc.

Just because player X is praising player Y, doesn't mean player Z necessarily would...

I don't know who is to blame for the slump. It's why it's only a theory.

I generally think in most losing streaks there's something going on behind the scenes we don't know about.

Slightly off topic but I think Novak Djokovic's slump in tennis was likely because of problems in his marriage.


I cannot necessarily think of other players who might be at the heart of the problem.

Just speculation.

Could be the fact 2 of the best players in the prem are missing from the pack?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could be the fact 2 of the best players in the prem are missing from the pack?

Faletau doesn't play for Saracens ?

Doesn't really work as I said 2 of the best not the best 2. But no personally I wouldn't include faletau in my top 2. He would be in the best 2 number 8s for me though in second place.

Could it be that Itoje is getting a bit big headed with all his praise and celebrity??

No 7&1/2 wrote:Doesn't really work as I said 2 of the best not the best 2. But no personally I wouldn't include faletau in my top 2. He would be in the best 2 number 8s for me though in second place.

Read, Picamoles, Billy. Toby might come in 4th though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Could it be that Itoje is getting a bit big headed with all his praise and celebrity??

Didn't realise Itoje faced Clermont.... I thought he was injured...

I doubt it's Itoje.

Disappointing that you've slowly transformed into a wum.

Transformed to a WUM????

Are you kidding...im the least wumming person on here!

Itoje should be fit for 6ns apparently

Id rather not rush itoje back - same as Billy V. Give them time to sort things out properly.
On that note - is there a scheduled return for Billy?

Manus back this weekend for Leicester...and will be broken again after the weekend....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Manus back this weekend for Leicester...and will be broken again after the weekend....

Probably. It's nice we are able to introduce him gradually and into a nice comfortable game. Even if he doesn't get injured he'll need a couple of months to be anywhere near match sharp.

It would be nice to see him actually go the rest of the season without a long term injury.

propdavid_london wrote:Id rather not rush itoje back - same as Billy V. Give them time to sort things out properly.  
On that note - is there a scheduled return for Billy?

As its a facial injury I can't see any problem with getting Itoje straight back in as long as he's fit.

It is not the same as trying to judge if a knee or shoulder is going to stand up to the punishment

I'd rather have Te'o in the squad than Manu, better player.

Can't help but feel that Manu needs to lose a significant amount of bulk if he isn't to break constantly.

mid_gen wrote:I'd rather have Te'o in the squad than Manu, better player.

Can't help but feel that Manu needs to lose a significant amount of bulk if he isn't to break constantly.

Lets wait and see how Manu gets on and what he's like after a few games. People also break when they push themselves too far away from what is natural to them, either way. He has genuinely been very unlucky.

At his best he was way better than Te'o. His (all too few) best performances were as good as any center we have ever produced, although you can't really compare what he does to, say, what Greenwood did. But that is all history and we have to start over again, because he's missed so much and the game moves on.