England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

I missed the Chiefs game on the weekend - did Slade have a good one?
Seems like he is starting to focus on 13 - I do wonder if that is a directive from RFU.
12 is quite well stocked with Teo and hybrid 12's in Farrell, Lozowski.
After Saints demolition - Is Piers Francis still in the mix for some people?
Joseph I am sure will come back into the mix.

Broken leg from a judo throw by Itoje in training.

So England are in the position where they are looking for a loose head prop to understudy the first 2 games at least; the tight head position after Dan Cole is still pretty open; still need a 7 to put their hand up; a third choice no 9; an inside and outside centre; and if the critics are to be believed a 15. This needs to be a big tournament for England to start to settle the team for 2019.

I reckon we need to have 12 or so of the starting team for the world cup nailed down by the end of this 6 Nations.

nlpnlp wrote:So England are in the position where they are looking for a loose head prop to understudy the first 2 games at least; the tight head position after Dan Cole is still pretty open; still need a 7 to put their hand up; a third choice no 9; an inside and outside centre; and if the critics are to be believed a 15.  This needs to be a big tournament for England to start to settle the team for 2019.

I reckon we need to have 12 or so of the starting team for the world cup nailed down by the end of this 6 Nations.

Obano has timed his form very well with Marler, Genge and Mullan all injured. Looks that he'll be on the bench for the start of the tournament.

Sinckler should make that reserve tight head spot his own. After Sinckler a 3rd will be needed with Jones looking at a RWC squad. Williams looks in pole seat, shame that Collier can't stay fit because he is a consistent scrummager. The Saints duo of Brookes and Hill are both more talented but currently fading.

I can't see Jones looking past how dominant Underhill is in the tackle at 7. It's a shame Tom Curry is injured as he offers a different skill set that could have been looked at. The likes of Curry, Clifford and Simmonds could pressure Haskell for a squad place on current form.

Third choice 9 is anyone's guess. Maunder was preferred in the summer. Robson has been good for Wasps but thus far ignored.

I'd stick with the Ford-Farrell axis. I never thought it would do but it's produced some very good and consistent rugby. Te'o offers physicality at 12 for tactical changes.

13 is covered very well by Joseph and Daly. No need to find another 13 with Te'o and Slade capable there.

I hope Watson starts at full back over the 6 Nations. May and Nowell would be my first choice wings.

The more imminent 6 Nations questions there are; If Mako goes down before the tournament then the LH side is up a creek without a paddle? Will Underhill stay fully fit and gain form? Te'o still being out cuts tactical options but could offer Slade or Lozowski a bench spot?

Haskell red card for a late shoulder to the head of Roberts. Expect he'll see a ban but was clumsy rather than malicious, so may be available for the 6N.

James Chisholm put in a MotM performance....

Simmons looked fantastic against Montpellier, he is just so explosive. If he can play 7, I can't see EJ looking further afield

Simmonds was great. Him underhill Vunipola could be a fairly exciting and well balanced combo.

How good was smiths cameo when he came on!

Apparently Billy didn't make it for the 2nd half tonight due to a wrist injury. Hmmm

Haskell always was a fool and now shows he is a dirty fool. On elf the most gratuitous challenges you'll ever see on a rugby pitch and then his mealy mouthed apology. So I did what I did, I didnt mean to hurt his head by trying to take it off and I do these things because I'm a chump.

I expect that this will put paid to any chance of an England resurgence as it should.

Gwlad wrote:Haskell always was a fool and now shows he is a dirty fool. On elf the most gratuitous challenges you'll ever see on a rugby pitch and then his mealy mouthed apology. So I did what I did, I didnt mean to hurt his head by trying to take it off and I do these things because I'm a chump.

I expect that this will put paid to any chance of an England resurgence as it should.

Another thoughtful eloquent contribution. Oh Gwlad how we have missed you.

Or maybe not.

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Haskell always was a fool and now shows he is a dirty fool. On elf the most gratuitous challenges you'll ever see on a rugby pitch and then his mealy mouthed apology. So I did what I did, I didnt mean to hurt his head by trying to take it off and I do these things because I'm a chump.

I expect that this will put paid to any chance of an England resurgence as it should.

Another thoughtful eloquent contribution. Oh Gwlad how we have missed you.

Or maybe not.

Sounds like its you needs a clout on the head as usual.

When Eddie came to town England’s clubs were stronger and in a very rich vein of form, even Northampton and especially Saracens. England had a settled team - I think things were fairly straightforward for him. Now the clubs aren’t in such good form and I assume England also have a few injuries? Ireland probably have the least injuries. Wales dealt with their injuries in the autumn where we brought in some new guys that should feature more regularly now. This should make the 6N more interesting.

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Haskell always was a fool and now shows he is a dirty fool. On elf the most gratuitous challenges you'll ever see on a rugby pitch and then his mealy mouthed apology. So I did what I did, I didnt mean to hurt his head by trying to take it off and I do these things because I'm a chump.

I expect that this will put paid to any chance of an England resurgence as it should.

Another thoughtful eloquent contribution. Oh Gwlad how we have missed you.

Or maybe not.

Sounds like its you needs a clout on the head as usual.

Surely its 'you who  needs'... If you choose to spread bile it helps if you use proper English. Maybe 'clouts' is the only thing you really understand, because you have had a lot of practice in being made to understand that way.

And why is a (now fringe) England player so important? Why not pick up on Scarletts doing a number on Bath in Bath? Something, you know, positive

mikey_dragon wrote:When Eddie came to town England’s clubs were stronger and in a very rich vein of form, even Northampton and especially Saracens. England had a settled team - I think things were fairly straightforward for him. Now the clubs aren’t in such good form and I assume England also have a few injuries? Ireland probably have the least injuries. Wales dealt with their injuries in the autumn where we brought in some new guys that should feature more regularly now. This should make the 6N more interesting.

Eddie is putting a lot of faith in players (well - Hartley atleast) playing better for England than for their own clubs. Not long til we find out.

The injury situation is kicking in to some extent, and there are some form issues but of the teams that Eddie has put out the main names we are missing - the ones I can think of as being an issue off the top of my head.
Daly and Hughes - who will both come back during the tournament -
Marler for being an idiot - also due back
Kruis (arguable these days) out of form
Nowell - bust cheekbone.
Billy - was  playing against the Ospreys but went off with a wrist injury so who knows
Tom Curry - bust wrist
Teo - injured and not sure for how long
Various back up props.

As far as positions go we are short on back rows (especially at no.8) and may well end up relying on Simmonds who seems a great prospect but at 8 will probably be the lightest guy in the pack. Back 3 is fine but shorter than normal on replacements - and we will be relying on Brown at 15 as usual. We may well be stretched in the scrum because we may well end up relying on props way down the pecking order (including Itoje's cousin - Obano) and the first choices Mako and Cole are not currently that scary in the tight.

Prop problems seem to be an issue for everyone though.

Does Gwlad have some compromising pictures of the mods or something? I know he obviously has nothing better to do than troll England threads but couldn't someone let the adults talk about rugby?

England have fixture advantage this year, with Italy to warm up, Ireland and Wales at home. France in Paris is usually a happy hunting ground for us. Scotland at Murrayfield is going to be a big test.

I expect the form teams England, Ireland, Scotland to nick some wins off each other, could be a BP deciding championship.

Bets on the Italy game being an easy win but awful to watch giving everybody the chance to put the boot in on England

Billy Vunipola has fractured his forearm.....going to be out for the 6N at least

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Billy Vunipola has fractured his forearm.....going to be out for the 6N at least

That will be a massive loss

Is Simmonds likely to start? Mercer even? It won't be Harrison (I think his time has been and gone) plus Hughes, Vunipola and Clifford are all injured. Is Ben Morgan fit? Is Josh Beaumont likely to be considered (Is he even playing?).

Perhaps we should give a call to Nick Easter or Lawrence. We need No 8s!!

Six Nations just got much harder, will Haskell cop a ban too? Back-row is definitely looking dicey, just need Robshaw to pick up a knock and we are well and truly stuffed!

Possibility armond could come in.

Hughes is due back mid 6N - so we have a couple of games to worry about. Simmonds will play at  8 but I do think it leaves us short of muscle in the back row.

Where is Clifford at?

If I was Jones I would be considering dropping the whole Exeter back row straight in. Armond Simmonds and ewers looked pretty good yesterday

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:When Eddie came to town England’s clubs were stronger and in a very rich vein of form, even Northampton and especially Saracens. England had a settled team - I think things were fairly straightforward for him. Now the clubs aren’t in such good form and I assume England also have a few injuries? Ireland probably have the least injuries. Wales dealt with their injuries in the autumn where we brought in some new guys that should feature more regularly now. This should make the 6N more interesting.

Eddie is putting a lot of faith in players (well - Hartley atleast) playing better for England than for their own clubs. Not long til we find out.

The injury situation is kicking in to some extent, and there are some form issues but of the teams that Eddie has put out the main names we are missing - the ones I can think of as being an issue off the top of my head.
Daly and Hughes - who will both come back during the tournament -
Marler for being an idiot - also due back
Kruis (arguable these days) out of form
Nowell - bust cheekbone.
Billy - was  playing against the Ospreys but went off with a wrist injury so who knows
Tom Curry - bust wrist
Teo - injured and not sure for how long
Various back up props.

As far as positions go we are short on back rows (especially at no.8) and may well end up relying on Simmonds who seems a great prospect but at 8 will probably be the lightest guy in the pack. Back 3 is fine but shorter than normal on replacements - and we will be relying on Brown at 15 as usual. We may well be stretched in the scrum because we may well end up relying on props way down the pecking order (including Itoje's cousin - Obano) and the first choices Mako and Cole are not currently that scary in the tight.

Prop problems seem to be an issue for everyone though.

We know England have depth so I think they'll still be in the mix. Ireland will be everyone's toughest game though, least injuries and all 4 provinces looking good. Scotland are suffering with a lot of injuries to their Glasgow players but Townsend will still have them playing at that tempo, he's previously done it with Glasgow when they have 20 players out. Wales thus far without Jake Ball, Dan Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau, JD2, Amos, North - all have been significant players for us but I think we have the reserve players to cope with it this time around.

I don't know much about Obano - is he actually 5'8 and 120kg? He would be difficult to scrum against...

Clifford is still recovering from shoulder surgery. I am hoping James Chisholm gets a call up. He has been in great form since his return and is an option across the back row.

mikey_dragon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:When Eddie came to town England’s clubs were stronger and in a very rich vein of form, even Northampton and especially Saracens. England had a settled team - I think things were fairly straightforward for him. Now the clubs aren’t in such good form and I assume England also have a few injuries? Ireland probably have the least injuries. Wales dealt with their injuries in the autumn where we brought in some new guys that should feature more regularly now. This should make the 6N more interesting.

Eddie is putting a lot of faith in players (well - Hartley atleast) playing better for England than for their own clubs. Not long til we find out.

The injury situation is kicking in to some extent, and there are some form issues but of the teams that Eddie has put out the main names we are missing - the ones I can think of as being an issue off the top of my head.
Daly and Hughes - who will both come back during the tournament -
Marler for being an idiot - also due back
Kruis (arguable these days) out of form
Nowell - bust cheekbone.
Billy - was  playing against the Ospreys but went off with a wrist injury so who knows
Tom Curry - bust wrist
Teo - injured and not sure for how long
Various back up props.

As far as positions go we are short on back rows (especially at no.8) and may well end up relying on Simmonds who seems a great prospect but at 8 will probably be the lightest guy in the pack. Back 3 is fine but shorter than normal on replacements - and we will be relying on Brown at 15 as usual. We may well be stretched in the scrum because we may well end up relying on props way down the pecking order (including Itoje's cousin - Obano) and the first choices Mako and Cole are not currently that scary in the tight.

Prop problems seem to be an issue for everyone though.

We know England have depth so I think they'll still be in the mix. Ireland will be everyone's toughest game though, least injuries and all 4 provinces looking good. Scotland are suffering with a lot of injuries to their Glasgow players but Townsend will still have them playing at that tempo, he's previously done it with Glasgow when they have 20 players out. Wales thus far without Jake Ball, Dan Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau, JD2, Amos, North - all have been significant players for us but I think we have the reserve players to cope with it this time around.

I don't know much about Obano - is he actually 5'8 and 120kg? He would be difficult to scrum against...

Don't think anyone knows much about Obano outside of Bath. He's young but had some chronic back problems which has delayed his progress somewhat. He has had a great year at bath. He's promising and a handful in the loose but probably lacking in fitness for Eddie. And he is actually Itoje's cousin but his branch of the family use a different surname for unspecified reasons.

I think we would all be surprised if he turned up in the match day squads this year but you never know. Him going to the England training sessions may just be standard Eddie media tactics to keep attention away from the actual squad.

As the biggest critic of Michael Young at scrum half...im prepared to say since he has returned from long term injury and is back in the squad...he has been very good indeed. The relentless box kicks seem to have gone.

And he's the best tackling scrum half by a country mile. He is fearless.

Jeez I never thought id ever hear myself say positive things about Michael.

lostinwales wrote:Hughes is due back mid 6N - so we have a couple of games to worry about. Simmonds will play at  8 but I do think it leaves us short of muscle in the back row.

Where is Clifford at?

I don't know if we can rely on Hughes even for the last two games. We saw bringing back Billy Vunipola straight back into the side did in the last match of the last 6 Nations. I am not sure starting an under-cooked Hughes in Paris as his first game of the tournament would be a good idea. Really speaking you want him to have had at least a couple of games for Wasps before starting for England again.

I'm still confident that we will be competitive in the tournament, but I am looking at all the games (bar Italy I suppose) with a lot more trepidation than I was a few weeks ago.

Less concerned about the back row tbh. Still loosehead where my fear is. Let's hope we have good hands vs wales and Ireland in particular.

I don't feel trepidation so much. England will still be extremely competitive (I believe). There is the same issue as in Nov, with the lack of bulk in the midfield and now the back row issues, with some inexperience in the front row.

Against the Irish I expect a very tight match.

The French will bring the power game - do we have enough to combat it without Hughes/Billy V/Teo?

The Scots at home will be very tight - I expect it will be a 1 score game, probably with a lot of points for both sides.

The Italians - first up, I expect a win - bit will COS have some more tricks up his sleeve to try and wrong step the English - I don't think so this time. As someone above said, I expect a bigger win but it will be unconvincing.

The Welsh - Will continue to play what we know they will. WarrenBall, sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. They had England on the ropes last year apart from that last minute try.

Adding to the list from above -

Daly and Hughes - who will both come back during the tournament - will be undercooked - perhaps not worth the risk
Marler for being an idiot - also due back - Don't think there is much choice - But like the look of Obano
Kruis (arguable these days) out of form - But plenty of inform 2nd row cover in Launchbury/Lawes/Itoje. Is Ewells injured? Also there is Isekwe
Nowell - bust cheekbone.
Billy - Fractured forearm so out for whole 6N
Tom Curry - bust wrist
Teo - injured and not sure for how long
Rokko - is he injured? Not seen him for Bath?

Other comments -
I expect Obano will back up to Mako V. Sinks will come back in to impact off the bench behind Cole. Hartley to start with George covering (Eddies choice). 2nd Row is still strong, with Haskell being a plumb we may see Itoje starting at no.6 again with Simmonds starting at 8. Robshaw was rested over the weekend (I hope not because of injury).
Starting backline will probably be something like Youngs, Ford, Watson, Farrell, Slade, ?Solomona?, Brown

Its really who is sitting on the bench that might be an issue - and its a bench that England have relied on to make an impact in the past for those tight games........

Have I missed an injury to may? He has to start if fit.

Forgot May...

Does anyone think that Cockanasinga or Solomona will get a look in?

I would also argue that Care is in better form than Youngs at the moment.

A few I wouldn't mind seeing getting a couple of mins experience. Do we think there's any scope for a few surprises in the squad?

Surely these injury absentees are bound to open the door for some newer inclusions.
The Italy game is the ideal time to add some of them too - giving new players the most prep time possible to understand the systems and also being (no offence) one of the weaker opponents.

propdavid_london wrote:Does anyone think that Cockanasinga or Solomona will get a look in?

Outside chance for Solomona. Probably too early for Cockanasinga. With Solomona I don't think anyone would argue with his finishing- it is just everything else.

May and Watson are as good a pair of wingers as any in the 6N, we are really just looking for back up.

propdavid_london wrote:I would also argue that Care is in better form than Youngs at the moment.

Youngs has been awful form a few times, but always started if fit.

propdavid_london wrote:Surely these injury absentees are bound to open the door for some newer inclusions.
The Italy game is the ideal time to add some of them too - giving new players the most prep time possible to understand the systems and also being (no offence) one of the weaker opponents.

There is definitely room for a new face in the back row and reserve LH in the match day squads. Everywhere else it will be variations on the same old.

We probably won't start with a reserve back 3 (and Joseph could go to wing with Watson to FB if Brown got hurt during a game) but it will be interesting to see if there are any new faces in the wider squad

Squad announcement on Thursday

lostinwales wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Does anyone think that Cockanasinga or Solomona will get a look in?

Outside chance for Solomona. Probably too early for Cockanasinga. With Solomona I don't think anyone would argue with his finishing- it is just everything else.

May and Watson are as good a pair of wingers as any in the 6N, we are really just looking for back up.

Depends if Eddie is on board with the Watson to FB camp

Whats the other Watson playing like for Wasps?

When he was with us on the wing...he was in England recognition form! Fantastic in attack and strong in defence.

Also is Olly Woodburn not worth a shot. Everytime I see him he looks quality and also has that physicality!


NB Kibirige looks back to full fitness, and was outstanding yesterday against an admittedly poor Russian side. And on the other wing Radwan scores for fun.

Together they scared the life out of the opposition with their pace and running ability.

I'd like to see them getting a shot in the squad if there is a summer tour for the Saxons...

Watson senior is a mile away. Walker before injury and Woodburn both ahead of him for the long shots

On that Saxons note - I really miss the old Churchill Cup.
There needs to be more Saxons fixtures announced - the last one I can remember was the SA tour.
I guess the Senior tour to Argentina last year had a bit of a Saxons feel but that's only down to the Lions.

A Saxons series would really allow us to get a decent look at these fringe guys that we still have ? over.
All the young guys, like the Currys, The Chiefs back-row, New combinations, Tom Dunn throwing to new locks....

Interesting, so many seem to leave us and their performances drop.

Brookes is another great example.

Dean seems to be able to get players playing to their best.

Rokoduguni out for the entirety of the 6ns now.

Rokko would have been a long shot I am guessing bench option at best. May and Watson to start on the wings and Brown in the middle. Simply isn't much choice for Eddie there. Solomona may well cover from the bench and any combination of May/Watson to cover 15 if Brown is injured.

Did Brown go of injured against Wasps at the weekend?

I've read on other rugby sites that Ben Vellacott turned down a call up to the Scotland squad. Could be a surprise selection by Eddie? Can't say I have seen much of him this season, but people I know are impressed by him.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42540676