England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

I missed the Chiefs game on the weekend - did Slade have a good one?
Seems like he is starting to focus on 13 - I do wonder if that is a directive from RFU.
12 is quite well stocked with Teo and hybrid 12's in Farrell, Lozowski.
After Saints demolition - Is Piers Francis still in the mix for some people?
Joseph I am sure will come back into the mix.

Article is a bit out of date.

LondonTiger wrote:Did Brown go of injured against Wasps at the weekend?

Yes, at the end. Reportedly had double vision. Hopefully it's precautionary, but I haven't seen an injury update.

Cumbrian wrote:I've read on other rugby sites that Ben Vellacott turned down a call up to the Scotland squad. Could be a surprise selection by Eddie? Can't say I have seen much of him this season, but people I know are impressed by him.

A fair bit away from Int quality surely.

Got to imagine these youngsters putting their club future ahead of getting tied down with 1 cap from another country.

Gary Graham has not made the Scotland squad, so I wonder if that means he's in the England squad....

Or that he's not good enough for either.

It'll be interesting to see. He's impressed this season..and the thing in his favour is he has an aggressive attitude (he's got real dog in him) to go along with his physical style of play.

I cant see Scotland NOT picking him if he was available.

GeordieFalcon wrote:It'll be interesting to see. He's impressed this season..and the thing in his favour is he has an aggressive attitude (he's got real dog in him) to go along with his physical style of play.

I cant see Scotland NOT picking him if he was available.

Josh Strauss has been left out of the Scotland squad when looking at their back row options GF.

Watson and Barclay are there as openside options with Luke Hamilton, Ryan Wilson and Rob Harley able to cover the back row. Josh Hardie has been left out after his 'gross misconduct ban' despite technically being available for the 6 Nations following suspension.

Graham has impressed and fits the style that EJ likes with his aggression but Scotland are strong in the back row. EJ is also well known for thinking almost solely about building to RWC 2019. Would Graham challenge Underhill as a defensive machine, Tom Curry as an all round 7, Haskells work rate in hitting ruck after ruck...

I rate Graham and actually remember watching him back in his Gala days as a semi-pro in the Scottish Prem. If he stepped up in the England side I feel he'd perform similar to Teimana Harrison though. By which I think his all round game would fall short as an international 7, his defence and carrying wouldn't stack-up elsewhere in the back row.

So starting team likely to be:

Mako
Hartley
Cole
Itoje
Lawes
Robshaw
Underhill
Simmons
Care
Ford
May
Farrell
Joseph
Watson
Brown

Tbh I'm concerned about Brown, he's had a real battle with concussion. And reading about guys like Hape, I wouldn't be surprised if he had a week or two off at least.

Still looks a quality team. Form questions over Hartley and Joseph but I think every other player there is playing exceptionally well even if their clubs are struggling.

I would like Eddie to be really bold and use the injuries to make some big changes. But I know he won't because he wants to keep up the momentum and has certain "glue players" such as Hartley and robshaw.
So for the sake of it, here is my 23 for Italy;

Mako Vunipola
Jamie George
Dan Cole
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes
Maro Itoje
Sam Underhill
Dave Ewers
Ben Young's
Owen Farrell
Jonny May
Alex Lozowski
Jonathan Joseph
Jack Nowell
Anthony Watson

Luke Cowan-Dickie
Beno Obano
Kyle Sinckler
Charlie Ewels or Nick Isiekwe
Sam Simmonds
Danny Care
Henry Slade
Manu Tuilagi

Joe Launchbury as Captain

No George ford but I don't think we can win a world cup with him at 10

Would like to see Alex Lozowski at 10 with Farrell at 12 for Saracens.

Also hoping that Mike Haley or Harry Mallinder could mature into test full backs so we can move Anthony Watson to the wing.

GeordieFalcon wrote:It'll be interesting to see. He's impressed this season..and the thing in his favour is he has an aggressive attitude (he's got real dog in him) to go along with his physical style of play.

I cant see Scotland NOT picking him if he was available.

With EJ picking him for a training squad, Graham has obviously tied himself somewhat to England. It would be a bit off from Graham if he went to train with England and then joined Scotland a few weeks later.

Apparently GT contacted him and asked him to chose Scotland, he hasn't. Is he good enough for England? I'm honestly not sure. He has impressed but it's hard to see if he has the quality required to make that jump. He's been playing better than Haskell anyway....

Constantly slate Robshaw, but now pondering if Graham is good enough...

I am sure that the back row will be a combination of Robshaw, Simmonds and Lawes/Itoje.
Would like to be surprised, but think its unlikely.
Robshaw may well even cover no.8 as there were rumours of him packing down at 8 way back during the England-Wales training session.

Underhill may well be backrow cover from the bench - but there is a risk of him being undercooked a bit as recently back from injury.
(Anyone know how he got on in that Bath 'horror show' match against Scarlets)?

He actually looked good. Carried well when he got the chance.

yappysnap wrote:Constantly slate Robshaw, but now pondering if Graham is good enough...

I don't get your point. I'd hardly call suggesting that Robshaw is average Int 7 as slating him either. He has his qualities, I think we need better.

I've seen Graham come through into the Falcons side and it's a tough one as he's constantly improved when the levels have increased. He main assets seem to be his physicality and carrying, both of which may not be quite good enough at the top level.

I'm not sure what I've said to annoy you, or is it simply because I'm not a big Robshaw fan?

Think it's because graham is not as good as Robshaw. Would still prefer either over Lawes though.
Can't wait for the squad so we can at least have a glimpse at jones thinking.

I would never suggest Graham is as good as Robshaw. His direct comparison would probably be somebody like Haskell anyway and he is playing better than him. From a Falcon's point of view, I'd say Will Welch was a similar type player to Robshaw, I'm not a fan of him either

I'd probably go with Robshaw underhill and simmonds myself. There's an outside chance of armond but I can't see ewers getting in or graham. Haskell on the bench as can cover.

Haskell.has his hearing today but personally don't think it was that bad a tackle and would be surprised should he miss the italy.

Nottswasp wrote:I would like Eddie to be really bold and use the injuries to make some big changes. But I know he won't because he wants to keep up the momentum and has certain "glue players" such as Hartley and robshaw.
So for the sake of it, here is my 23 for Italy;

Mako Vunipola
Jamie George
Dan Cole
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes
Maro Itoje
Sam Underhill
Dave Ewers
Ben Young's
Owen Farrell
Jonny May
Alex Lozowski
Jonathan Joseph
Jack Nowell
Anthony Watson

Luke Cowan-Dickie
Beno Obano
Kyle Sinckler
Charlie Ewels or Nick Isiekwe
Sam Simmonds
Danny Care
Henry Slade
Manu Tuilagi

Joe Launchbury as Captain

No George ford but I don't think we can win a world cup with him at 10

Would like to see Alex Lozowski at 10 with Farrell at 12 for Saracens.

Also hoping that Mike Haley or Harry Mallinder could mature into test full backs so we can move Anthony Watson to the wing.

Has Dave Ewers ever payed No8 before?

I do not believe that a Youngs/Farrell combo works very well (plus as you may expect I disagree with your rating of Ford).

Manu is not ready for England duty.

How is Armond not getting a look in?

Lack of carrying in the tight apparently. You could equally query Robson when vellacot is looking to be named.

I'm not sure Vellcacott will be in the squad. I know I brought it up, but perhaps I am adding 2 plus 2 and getting five. You would suggest he is miles away from the starting squad, but could be brought through as an apprentice player like Smith and Mercer (he is only 22). Interestingly, there seems to be a lot of people implying (quite heavily at times) that we are somehow 'poaching' him from Scotland. How we poach a lad who was born, raised and taught rugby in England is beyond me quite frankly...

It reinforces the rfu view that compensation needs to be better when scotland have helped develop him through their youth sides tbf.

EJ signs contract extension till 2021!

I am sure they are just focusing on the fact he went through the age grade SRFU system.
Much the same way as Moriarty went through the RFU age grades.

I've not seen enough of Vellacott to even have an opinion of if he is good enough - Most Gloucester games I've seen have Heinz playing 70mins.

But Care isn't a spring chicken any more - so its good for Eddie to look around at options. Thought Maunder was the one in his sights though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It reinforces the rfu view that compensation needs to be better when scotland have helped develop him through their youth sides tbf.

Not sure Velacott is a great example of that. The odd training camp isn't funding his development. He came through the RFU funded Exeter academy. He's born and raised in England so I'd expect him to prefer to play for England if the opportunity arises, but let's say he plays for Scotland, it'll be the RFU that receives the compensation. If he plays for England, Scotland will receive nothing. Rightly so IMO.

Hmm. Scotland under 17 18s and 20s.and 17 caps ish. I'm personally of the view the rfu were correct in calling for a review of the whole thing.but yes completely.take your point on the funding through.clubs academies.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:EJ signs contract extension till 2021!

Great news, also still working on succession planning and all the right break clauses in there if required too.
Bad news for the Wades, Kvesick's of today.

Hang on actually, the Torygraph is quoting Townsend as saying that he expects Vellacott to be named in the England squad tomorrow. The player must have said something to him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2018/01/16/england-selecting-scottish-players-new-reality-admits-gregor/

I suppose foe the likes of.wade Robson etc at least they know that it's going to be the same selection criteria (most likely)so they aren't throwing away any work they did.

Wish Saints only signed one South African scrum half and maybe Mitchell would be on the radar for England now.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm. Scotland under 17 18s and 20s.and 17 caps ish. I'm personally of the view the rfu were correct in calling for a review of the whole thing.but yes completely.take your point on the funding through.clubs academies.

It is a tricky one. Due to a Scottish Mother Vellacott qualifies for Scotland and was ignored by the England Age Grade systems perhaps due to his size? How much of his development though was from being in Scottish Age group teams, or from being in the Exeter system from a very young age. Vellacott if selected by England would not be the first player to have played for a different countries age group teams, nor would he be the last. In thi scase, I have to say that like others I wonder if Vellacott is atm just protecting his EQP status. His employment prospects drop significantly should he be capped by Scotland - the case of Tom Heathcote may be in his mind.

As pointed out in an article I read earlier this week there are any number of players who are eligible for multiple countries within UK and Ireland. This article pointed out past England SHs such as Nigel Melville and Lee Dickson were "courted" by Scotland, with the former Saint actually being named in England and Scotland A team squads on the same day!

In my own head (bad place to be) I view Vellacott as an Englishman who played for Scotland age groups (as did Tom Palmer) but most definitely view Graham as a Scot. I actually wonder if Townsend seriously considered either player for his squad - they are in positions where Scotland have a lot of challengers.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm. Scotland under 17 18s and 20s.and 17 caps ish. I'm personally of the view the rfu were correct in calling for a review of the whole thing.but yes completely.take your point on the funding through.clubs academies.

It is a tricky one. Due to a Scottish Mother Vellacott qualifies for Scotland and was ignored by the England Age Grade systems perhaps due to his size? How much of his development though was from being in Scottish Age group teams, or from being in the Exeter system from a very young age. Vellacott if selected by England would not be the first player to have played for a different countries age group teams, nor would he be the last. In thi scase, I have to say that like others I wonder if Vellacott is atm just protecting his EQP status. His employment prospects drop significantly should he be capped by Scotland - the case of Tom Heathcote may be in his mind.

As pointed out in an article I read earlier this week there are any number of players who are eligible for multiple countries within UK and Ireland. This article pointed out past England SHs such as Nigel Melville and Lee Dickson were "courted" by Scotland, with the former Saint actually being named in England and Scotland A team squads on the same day!

How small is Vellacott? Cant be much smaller than Harry Randall that's been a regular for the England age grade sides.
Although he is also with Gloucester and I haven't seen him play for a while - So whats going on with Randall? Can any Gloucester supporters offer insight?

They are a similar size, with Randall being a couple of years younger though. Randall is an interesting one having played for both Wales and England at U18 level.

Just checking and it would appear that Vellacott was kept out of England age group squads by his Exeter Academy team mate Stuart Townsend.

With Jack Maunder then in the U20s squad in 15/16 it shows that Chiefs were producing young scrum halves.

Surely size is completely irrelevant for a scrum half.

The smaller they are the more Yappy they get......

Not often you see a small player make it any position these days though GF. I guess if he can back it up with physicality, he may be ok.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm. Scotland under 17 18s and 20s.and 17 caps ish. I'm personally of the view the rfu were correct in calling for a review of the whole thing.but yes completely.take your point on the funding through.clubs academies.

Academies that are also co-ordinated and part funded by the RFU...

Like I said I accept that point and you'd see.similar elsewhere. I still see the need to review the current.compensation as I don't think it spreads wide enough.

Dave Ewers has played 8, also with Vunipola and Hughes out we need a back row ball carrier. Eddie hasn't been afraid to pick someone in a position not played in for their club....such as Elliott Daly at wing when at the time he was playing in the centre.

George ford is a tidy player, but despite playing for a good bath side hasn't won a premiership title or European cup.....now playing for a struggling Leicester team.

How does the side he plays for impact fords ability? And why then would you pick other players not to have won the prem and also playing for similar if not the same team?

Bath at the time were the form premiership side with plenty of money behind them....but never closed out a title.

Saracens on the other hand did close out the titles.

Ford didn't make the lions tour, wouldn't make starting team for all blacks, Australia or Ireland. Whenever he comes up against Ireland...ford struggles.

I think Alex Lozowski is a better bet with Farrell at 12

Would depend on who picks the team wouldn't it. Farrell wouldn't make the current england team at 10 for example but some would pick him above ford. The first part of your reply doesn't impact on fords ability either and as.ive said you ignore the same measure for other players. So I guess it would come down to assessing where ford struggles.against ireland and why that was ie focus on his abilities. . Personally I think the balance from our scrum.half's though the entire mid field is working well and I did doubt it to start. For my money ford is a great passer varies his depth well,good kicker from hand. The only weakness Id accept is the occasional game where his place kicking is shocking.but on average even that is good.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm. Scotland under 17 18s and 20s.and 17 caps ish. I'm personally of the view the rfu were correct in calling for a review of the whole thing.but yes completely.take your point on the funding through.clubs academies.

It is a tricky one. Due to a Scottish Mother Vellacott qualifies for Scotland and was ignored by the England Age Grade systems perhaps due to his size? How much of his development though was from being in Scottish Age group teams, or from being in the Exeter system from a very young age. Vellacott if selected by England would not be the first player to have played for a different countries age group teams, nor would he be the last. In thi scase, I have to say that like others I wonder if Vellacott is atm just protecting his EQP status. His employment prospects drop significantly should he be capped by Scotland - the case of Tom Heathcote may be in his mind.

As pointed out in an article I read earlier this week there are any number of players who are eligible for multiple countries within UK and Ireland. This article pointed out past England SHs such as Nigel Melville and Lee Dickson were "courted" by Scotland, with the former Saint actually being named in England and Scotland A team squads on the same day!

In my own head (bad place to be) I view Vellacott as an Englishman who played for Scotland age groups (as did Tom Palmer) but most definitely view Graham as a Scot. I actually wonder if Townsend seriously considered either player for his squad - they are in positions where Scotland have a lot of challengers.

Townsend in his article is actually pretty philosophical about things. They had certainly been talking to Vellacott and watching George Graham. With Graham it seems it was just down to England asking first, his somewhat meteoric rise caught the Scottish selectors a little bit on the hop.

He says that he does not consider them to be 'our players', they are what they are, that is dual qualified and can make their own calls on what is best for their careers. He also points out that it is in many ways a credit to Scottish rugby that England are now looking at players who have had a big part of their development in Scotland. He refers to it as the 'new reality'. Our age grade teams have improved out of all recognition in recent years, so that is not entirely surprising.

At the end of the day there are always going to be dual or even more qualified players and some will go one way, others somewhere else. I bet England would have been very happy to have picked up Huw Jones for example.

Professional rugby players will more likely make their decisions based on pragmatism, head will likely rule heart. Playing for England brings potentially greater financial rewards and probably more secure employment. Against that though, you are going to be swimming in a very big pond, with a lot of very big fish in it. Some of these players may get none, or very few caps and there is always going to someone breathing down your neck for your shirt.

I would hope that it is the same in Scotland and it is certainly better than when it was harder to get out of the Scotland team than to get into it, but however you look at it, the maths is always going to be against us. Some players may sit back at the end of their careers and wish that they had won a few more (or any caps) than they did.

They are all very difficult choices that young players have to make. I don't envy them and certainly do not resent those that don't chose Scotland. Good luck to them all.

BigGee wrote:I don't envy them

Really? I'd like to have to make the 'difficult' decision on which country to play professional sport for.

Saracens players have one back to back European cups with Farrell at 10.

Lions won in Australia with Farrell in the 23 and drew against all blacks with Farrell at 10/12.

Exeter of course are reigning prem champions and leading the prem right now. So are the form team and do close titles.

Other players from Leicester and bath are there because there is nobody else out playing them, a fully fit and firing Manu Tuilagi v Jonathan Joseph.... Tuilagi wins that for example......but with George ford there is Owen Farrell/Alex Lozowski/Henry Slade...and hopefully at some point Ollie Devoto, knocking around as ball players. Plus being Saracens/Exeter players they are the form teams who have won titles.

Ford is one of the main reasons that England are as clinical as they are. Not sure you'd want to try to replace him.

Also, the idea of only filling the team with players from the champions is a bit silly.

None of that affects the quality of individuals though it's a marker or how good teams are against each other. So again the point is where you feel other players such as Farrell etc are out playing ford what strengths or weakness you're looking at etc.

Not to dredge up old waters...but there does still seem to be a little confusion still as to what the RFU complained about. This is not a question of eligibility. It literally comes down to money. Principally, what Velacott wants or feels is not the concern of the RFU. If he chose to play for Scotland, the RFUs complaint is not that he doesn't want to play for England, it's that the level of financial remuneration currently does not represent a good return on the money the RFU have invested in the academy that developed him.

Eligibility is a complex issue that is far from black and white. The RFU's complaint was much more simple than that.