Post Autumn Internationals - State of the Home Nations

First topic message reminder :

So where does this leave each of the home nations then?

Scotland:
- won two, lost one;
- scored 16 tries in 3 games (including two matches against top 3 opposition);
- gave 7 players their first caps (Jamie Bhatti, Darryl Marfo, Chris Harris, George Turner, Luke Hamilton, Byron McGuigan and Phil Burleigh);
- conceded 11 tries;
- almost received a compliment from Steve Hanson;
- played positively and with some confidence.

So all in all, what we hoped for at the start of the series albeit that the defence was inexplicably absent for chunks of the game.

So far Wales are in pretty bad shape - they have one game to turn it around but I can't see that happening. If it's a 20 point win against SA with 3 TH's and some other good players out then we're in better shape than I thought. Some positives to take from the AI series are the emergence of Wyn Jones, Dee, Brown, Navidi, Owen Williams, Stef Evans. We'll have to bring on Beard, Seb Davies and Patchell in the 6N. Another thing, something that's been blatantly obvious for years but now more than ever I feel, McBryde and Howley need to go! Shaun Edwards is about 5 years past his sell-by date too.

Scotland are the most improved, certainly a top 3 finish for them in the 6N at least. Scotland beating England at home would be a major scalp.

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Not a great Autumn but if only we could get our first team fit aside from one winger and sub loosehead it would be a hard team to beat with great impact off the bench.

Evans, Owens, Lee, AWJ, Charteris, Moriarty, Warburton, Faletau, Webb, Biggar, North, O Williams, JD2, ?, Williams. Bench ?, Dacey/Dee, Francis, Ball/Hill, Navidi, Tipuric, Davies, Priestland, Parkes.

Cant see much to fear there TBH . Wales for 5th , sorry.

You should because Scotland don't have much experience of beating them and plenty of experience losing... although you could argue that Scotland have a raft of new players and coaches which will make the difference in 2018. The Wales team in the 6N will also have a lot less past-it players that Gwlad's team. I can't see Tips or Warbs there if Navidi and Griffiths are available.

Who's pipping us for 4th, France or Italy? I can't see either of them doing that and believe both are in a worse state than Wales.

Gwlad wrote:

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Not a great Autumn but if only we could get our first team fit aside from one winger and sub loosehead it would be a hard team to beat with great impact off the bench.

Evans, Owens, Lee, AWJ, Charteris, Moriarty, Warburton, Faletau, Webb, Biggar, North, O Williams, JD2, ?, Williams. Bench ?, Dacey/Dee, Francis, Ball/Hill, Navidi, Tipuric, Davies, Priestland, Parkes.

Cant see much to fear there TBH . Wales for 5th , sorry.

I doubt your fear the Patpong either though

Yes Wales vs Italy for the spoon, no doubt !

Just put a large bet on it. Wales are really guff  

I think the things that will save Wales is a home game against France on the last weekend should give them 2 wins.
3 wins max

Wales always have a poor Autumn so wouldn't write them off.

They always get stronger as the 6N goes on as well, the Irish and Scottish games will be key as they should beat France and Italy.

hugehandoff wrote:Manu now available for Tigers this weekend. If he ever stays fit then he would add nicely to EJ's squad?

Massive outsider for the 6 nations if people are fit. The centers is an area of uncertainty but they are pretty set on having a playmaker at 12 now. Hes never going to be one to get their flat fast passing game going. At 13 theres more potential for him ...but does he still have the raw pace of his youth?

Its also hugely optimistic to expect him to stay fit for more than 2 months.

If he does he is a country mile better than te'o though.

I'm not convinced the autumn results will matter much when it comes to the 6 nations. Sure you can see teams improve and decline but that should be balanced by looking at the big picture.


England seemed to be cruising through the last month. I wouldn't read too much into their performances. The danger for them would be a Lions tour hangover but they'll still start as favourites.

Ireland had a good autumn but they did last year too and had a bad 2016 6 nations. A few new players have been unearthed which could give them a boost this season.

Wales never perform well in november tests. They always look to peak in the 6 nations and look to be doing it again this year. I think they'll be hardest hit by the Lions. They don't have depth to cover too many injuries.

Scotland got all the plaudits for their performances and rightly so. They're the best team to watch so we're guaranteed entertainment. They're away to Ireland and Wales and have England at home. They could lose all 3 of those matches.

France and Italy have been poor. Noves is under pressure and for all the good Cono O'Shea is doing in helping Italian rugby, they looked better coached under Brunel.

Gooseberry wrote:Massive outsider for the 6 nations if people are fit.

Not sure he is an outside bet for an appearance. Jones appears to rate him as a prospect, and hasn't got that many chances left to look at him with the squad.

profitius wrote:I'm not convinced the autumn results will matter much when it comes to the 6 nations. Sure you can see teams improve and decline but that should be balanced by looking at the big picture.


England seemed to be cruising through the last month. I wouldn't read too much into their performances. The danger for them would be a Lions tour hangover but they'll still start as favourites.

Ireland had a good autumn but they did last year too and had a bad 2016 6 nations. A few new players have been unearthed which could give them a boost this season.

Wales never perform well in november tests. They always look to peak in the 6 nations and look to be doing it again this year. I think they'll be hardest hit by the Lions. They don't have depth to cover too many injuries.

Scotland got all the plaudits for their performances and rightly so. They're the best team to watch so we're guaranteed entertainment. They're away to Ireland and Wales and have England at home. They could lose all 3 of those matches.

France and Italy have been poor. Noves is under pressure and for all the good Cono O'Shea is doing in helping Italian rugby, they looked better coached under Brunel.

Do you mean a bad 2017 six nations (the six nations after the last November series is 2017)?

Ireland came 2nd, is that bad?

Bit insulting on the teams that came 3rd to 5th.

2 losses in each the 16 and 17 6ns.

Collapse2005 wrote:

profitius wrote:I'm not convinced the autumn results will matter much when it comes to the 6 nations. Sure you can see teams improve and decline but that should be balanced by looking at the big picture.


England seemed to be cruising through the last month. I wouldn't read too much into their performances. The danger for them would be a Lions tour hangover but they'll still start as favourites.

Ireland had a good autumn but they did last year too and had a bad 2016 6 nations. A few new players have been unearthed which could give them a boost this season.

Wales never perform well in november tests. They always look to peak in the 6 nations and look to be doing it again this year. I think they'll be hardest hit by the Lions. They don't have depth to cover too many injuries.

Scotland got all the plaudits for their performances and rightly so. They're the best team to watch so we're guaranteed entertainment. They're away to Ireland and Wales and have England at home. They could lose all 3 of those matches.

France and Italy have been poor. Noves is under pressure and for all the good Cono O'Shea is doing in helping Italian rugby, they looked better coached under Brunel.

Do you mean a bad 2017 six nations (the six nations after the last November series is 2017)?

Ireland came 2nd, is that bad?

Bit insulting on the teams that came 3rd to 5th.

I ment the 2017 6 nations. Ireland might have come second but we scored 2 tries in the last 3 games and played poorly against Scotland and Wales.

Well we won two of the last three games and only conceded 3 tries. All teams had at least 1 poor game.

Given how all the talk was about a St Patrick's weekend slam decider against England the campaign did not meet expectations. It was only the England win that saved it from being a total failure. The performance against Wales was particularly brutal to watch.

England won and their performances v Ireland and Italy were fairly brutal to watch too and they also had more home games. Finishing second in the 6 nations is never bad.

Where I feel the nations are

Italy will likely be bottom dwellers again. Struggling to make progress as a national side judging by the summer and autumn though increasing success at club level is a good indicator that they will improve in a more sustainable manner. Home matches against England and a resurgent Scotland in the last round are not likely to be winnable. Wales and France away are targets if Wales suffer injuries and France don't improve.

France are a mess. Individually talented, collectively a mess. Need a serious coaching overhaul and a bit of a reckoning with the clubs. They should beat Italy at home and will pose a threat to all sides due to their forward power. If they can settle on a style of play and half-backs who can execute they may be able to arm wrestle another win. The worse the weather, the better the chance.

Wales are trying to change their style of play whilst retaining the same coaches as the previous era. The results are their seconds squeaking past a Georgia team that spent the first half looking headless, getting out thought by Australia and being a couple of passes away from really worrying New Zealand. It may yet work out (especially if they can put away South Africa club 15). The worry is, after providing a number of Lions, that they will have worn out by the latter stages of the season. They are probably in the same position as Scotland last year. Dangerous and likely to finish with wins at home against France and Italy whilst threatening the others and maybe sneaking a 3rd. Home game vs Scotland is probably the key test.

Scotland are the most consistent attacking side in the NH. They will concede tries to Samoa/14 man sides and drop restarts against everyone. They will score tries (put 40+ on Samoa and 50+ on Aus) and demand that a team has to run with them for 80 minutes. Penalties are not likely to be enough to beat them. They had no Lions bar Seymour who saw significant action to wear them out prior to the season. Italy away and France at home are the easier targets. Wales may dictate how the 6 nations is viewed. Ireland and England will know that if they don't show up focused, they will be embarrassed. 3 wins is now an expectation and 4 is the hope.

Ireland are winning well (judging by some Irish threads, I will leave it to them to say how they are playing). Destroyed South Africa, their 2nds almost got turned over by Fiji and they won against the Jaguares. The summer they hammered Japan without their big names lost to the Lions tour (something that looks increasingly difficult to do). The home games they are favourites for. The French away are usually horrible to play but that is looking less the case with every game. The English game will likely be the decider. It may come down to keeping some key players healthy in the pack to ensure the set piece.

The wealthiest union in England are the proverbial Empire. They know how they want to play. They have the most depth. They have a coach who may have developed his press conferences with notes from Mourinho. Home games against usual spoil sports in Cardiff and Dublin. The main threat to their crown are prolonged injuries to key men who don't have real replacements (Farrell, Coles, B Vunipola and Robshaw in that order) or a failure of discipline.

Hazel Sapling wrote:
Ireland are winning well (judging by some Irish threads, I will leave it to them to say how they are playing). Destroyed South Africa, their 2nds almost got turned over by Fiji and they won against the Jaguares. The summer they hammered Japan without their big names lost to the Lions tour (something that looks increasingly difficult to do). The home games they are favourites for. The French away are usually horrible to play but that is looking less the case with every game. The English game will likely be the decider. It may come down to keeping some key players healthy in the pack to ensure the set piece.

The wealthiest union in England are the proverbial Empire. They know how they want to play. They have the most depth. They have a coach who may have developed his press conferences with notes from Mourinho. Home games against usual spoil sports in Cardiff and Dublin. The main threat to their crown are prolonged injuries to key men who don't have real replacements (Farrell, Coles, B Vunipola and Robshaw in that order) or a failure of discipline.

Plus it is nigh on impossible for the away side to get a fair decision from the officials at Twickenham.

The TMO put 20 odd points on the poor wallabies a few weeks ago, so no chance Ireland or Wales getting much out of that game.

Plus it is nigh on impossible for the away side to get a fair decision from the officials at Twickenham.

The TMO put 20 odd points on the poor wallabies a few weeks ago, so no chance Ireland or Wales getting much out of that game.

Tim: "Bitter Mike?"
Mike: "No, are you?"
Tim: "Would you like a pint of bitter Mike?"
Mike: "Err, yeah."

Lovely day here at Dubai 7s. Amazingly, it’s sunny.

Scotland now beating Spain after a dodgy start.
The difference has been D’Arcy Graham. The speed is evident.

I do think England are on one of two trajectories, one is winning the world cup or being narrowly pipped by New Zealand in the semi final or final. The other is that Eddie Jones' gimicks stop working and he finds himself at odds with senior players, the game at Murrayfield could go a long way to deciding which one.

rodders wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:
Ireland are winning well (judging by some Irish threads, I will leave it to them to say how they are playing). Destroyed South Africa, their 2nds almost got turned over by Fiji and they won against the Jaguares. The summer they hammered Japan without their big names lost to the Lions tour (something that looks increasingly difficult to do). The home games they are favourites for. The French away are usually horrible to play but that is looking less the case with every game. The English game will likely be the decider. It may come down to keeping some key players healthy in the pack to ensure the set piece.

The wealthiest union in England are the proverbial Empire. They know how they want to play. They have the most depth. They have a coach who may have developed his press conferences with notes from Mourinho. Home games against usual spoil sports in Cardiff and Dublin. The main threat to their crown are prolonged injuries to key men who don't have real replacements (Farrell, Coles, B Vunipola and Robshaw in that order) or a failure of discipline.

Plus it is nigh on impossible for the away side to get a fair decision from the officials at Twickenham.

The TMO put 20 odd points on the poor wallabies a few weeks ago, so no chance Ireland or Wales getting much out of that game.  

I presume this is humour.

George Carlin wrote:Lovely day here at Dubai 7s. Amazingly, it’s sunny.

Scotland now beating Spain after a dodgy start.
The difference has been D’Arcy Graham. The speed is evident.

watch yourself, you might get banged up for brushing past a stranger , kissing the wife or buying a beer

alive555 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Lovely day here at Dubai 7s. Amazingly, it’s sunny.

Scotland now beating Spain after a dodgy start.
The difference has been D’Arcy Graham. The speed is evident.

watch yourself, you might get banged up for brushing past a stranger , kissing the wife or buying a beer  

This coming from our man in Bangkok!  

Incidentally Alive, does your bedroom have bars at the window and men in smart uniforms who always seem to be walking outside?

You couldn't move in the stadium for the Heineken signs and Strongbow offers.

I am revising my assessment of Wales

Achieved 2 out of 4 with a decent performance against NZ and lost to Australia first game when rusty

Beset by injury and having provided so many Lions there was definitely some injury related fatigue showing.

Discovered 3 new and excellent additions in Owen Williams, Josh Navidi and Hadleigh Parkes while Shingler did well and Rob Evans was excellent.

We need to cement a 3rd scrum hand since Webb may be off the market soon though I reckon he may come back from Toulon.

I want to see a second 10 come into contention but I think Owen Williams may be the man; he can play both and they can interchange.

We look flush in the centres but ponderous in the back 3 without North playing well and Williams unfit. Sorry but Halfpenny is by no means first choice anymore except for when we dont have a kicking 10.

Coaching wise we know they're on borrowed time. I can't say I will be sorry to see any of them go, Gabs personal ambition with the lions has become the biggest burden on Welsh rugby; once fair enough but 3 times ffs. What other RU would allow it?!

And lastly Howley, can't lose him quick enough. He is lacking in ideas and has let his own inability to manage players end careers. Latest report that he wasn't up to it in NZ just goes to show you can be an amazing player but a shocking coach.

George Carlin wrote:

alive555 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Lovely day here at Dubai 7s. Amazingly, it’s sunny.

Scotland now beating Spain after a dodgy start.
The difference has been D’Arcy Graham. The speed is evident.

watch yourself, you might get banged up for brushing past a stranger , kissing the wife or buying a beer  

This coming from our man in Bangkok!  

Incidentally Alive, does your bedroom have bars at the window and men in smart uniforms who always seem to be walking outside?

You couldn't move in the stadium for the Heineken signs and Strongbow offers.

You dont get banged up for brushing past a stranger, kissing the wife or having a beer, its called civilisation


I mean come on, Dubai is a place well known for attracting professional people who didn't make it in London or HK !! I mean if you got money why live in that tip !

If you really need the money get in, and gtf out asap

No surprise the number of Dubai expats coming over here has become literally a torrent. No wonder !!

alive555 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

alive555 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Lovely day here at Dubai 7s. Amazingly, it’s sunny.

Scotland now beating Spain after a dodgy start.
The difference has been D’Arcy Graham. The speed is evident.

watch yourself, you might get banged up for brushing past a stranger , kissing the wife or buying a beer  

This coming from our man in Bangkok!  

Incidentally Alive, does your bedroom have bars at the window and men in smart uniforms who always seem to be walking outside?

You couldn't move in the stadium for the Heineken signs and Strongbow offers.

You dont get banged up for brushing past a stranger, kissing the wife or having a beer, its called civilisation  


I mean come on, Dubai is a place well known for attracting professional people who didn't make it in London or HK !! I mean if you got money why live in that tip !

If you really need the money get in, and gtf out asap  

No surprise the number of Dubai expats coming over here has become literally a torrent. No wonder !!

While BKK is known for people who, ahem, like to pay for it.

Gwlad wrote:Achieved 2 out of 4 with a decent performance against NZ and lost to Australia first game when rusty

Such low expectations

ebop wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Achieved 2 out of 4 with a decent performance against NZ and lost to Australia first game when rusty

Such low expectations

Like yours of the World Player of the Year